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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: rosijayne on Tuesday 24 July 12 11:11 BST (UK)
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On the 1911 census a relative of mine name of ERNEST OSBORNE aged 29 states that he was born at sea. This would work that he was born in 1882.
However, his parents, ARTHUR WILLIAM OSBORNE and FANNY ANDREWS were married on 4/5/1889, which does not tie up with his birth date. They were married in the EAST ASHFORD area.
I suppose what's really puzzling me here, is why ERNEST was born at sea, when his father ( ARTHUR ) was a platelayer for the South Eastern and Chatham railway. I cant understand why they may have been at sea. Also, the date of birth not adding up.
Is there anyway I can view births at sea records, and would it necessitate buying a certificate to do so?
Look forward to hearing from anybody who can help here
rosiejayne
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I dont know if this helps but this comes up under born at sea births
Armed Forces BMD Birth
Ernest F W Osborne
Regiment:11th Hussars
Place : Mousley
1882
Volume : 274 Page: 76
Record source: GRO Regimental Birth Indices (1761 to 1924)
What does the 1891 and 1901 census say?
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Snap Groom ;D , I was just going to ask if he had been found on earlier censuses?
Also,do you have his marriage cert,if so what info does it give about his father and who were the witnesses?
Carol
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Found them on the 1891 - This may just add to the puzzle, was Ernest actually Fanny's brother and not their son?
RG12; Piece: 749; Folio: 115; Page: 34
78, Coolinge Road, Folkestone
Arthur W Osborne 26 Platelayer SE Railway Sussex
Fanny Osborne 27 Smeeth Kent
Edith Osborne 1 daughter Folkestone
Ernest Andrews 10 brother in law Mersham, Kent
Edith Andrews 13 sister in law Smeeth
Anne Tribe 17 servant
Ellen Daniels 54 boarder
Bertha E Andrews 23 boarder
Mary Louis Andrews 25 boarder
Fanny Vanstraweza 60 boarder
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Ah I have found the family in 1891,it is looking like Ernest was born an Andrews,not an Osborne.
At 78 Coolinge Road,Folkestone.
Arthur W Osborne 26 head ,platelayer on South Eastern Railway b Sussex
Fanny Osborne 27 wife b Sneeth? Kent
Edith Osborne dau b Folkestone.
Ernest Andrews 10 brother in law b Mersham Kent
Edith Andrews 13 sis in Law b Sneeth?
Anne Tribe 17 servant b Folkestone
Ellen Daniels 54 married boarder b Dover
Bertha E Andrews 23 boarder single living on own means b Bidborough
Mary Louis Andrews 25 Ditto ditto
Fanny Vanstraweza 60 boarder widow Ditto ditto b France
Oh Groom you type faster than me ::)
Exactly what I thought is Ernest brother to Fanny?
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Looks as if Ernest may have taken the Osborne name as he was brought up by Arthur. He isn't with them in 1901
1901 78, Coolinge Road, Folkestone
Piece: 847 Folio: 100 Page: 22
Arthur W Osborne Head M 36 Market Gardener Hyden, Sussex
Fanny Osborne Wife F 37 Sellinge Hythe, Kent
Edith E Osborne Daughter F 11 Folkestone, Kent
Arthur W Osborne Son M 9 Folkestone, Kent
Elsie W Osborne Daughter F 8 Folkestone, Kent
Dorothy F V Osborne Daughter F 3 Folkestone, Kent
Plus servant and 4 boarders
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Thanks groom and carol, you are doing a fab job between you ! :)
I was still trying to locate 1891 and 1901 census, so very many thanks for all of this info.
It seems as though you may be right about ERNEST being born an ANDREWS, and taking the name of OSBORNE.
I looked at the birth at sea with interest, but do not think this one to be a connection, ( many thanks anyway groom ) as the family background does not seem to add up.
On the 1911 census ERNEST is married to CLARA, living in Peckham Park Road, South East London. They had two children at the time, LILY and WINIFRED. If anybody would kindly like to confirm that I am not reading this wrongly under ERNEST, that he was born at sea. I do not know how to post the link to that census, sorry, as my teenage son is out at the moment!!
Thank you for posting census info,
rosiejayne
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The image definitely says at sea - are you 100% sure that this is your Ernest?
There are two Ernest Andrews born about the right time in Kent:
Ernest Edward Andrews Sept quarter 1882 East Ashford 2A 776
Ernest Hemmings Andrews March quarter 1882 East Ashford 2A 806
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So do you have the marriage cert of Ernest to Clara- what is her maiden name?
Carol
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He isn't very helpful is he - says he has been married 6 years ie about 1905
There are 2 possible marriages with a Clara involved
OSBORN, Ernest Alfred
1905 Dec quarter
Lambeth
1D 811
on the same page Clara Parry
OSBORNE, Earnest Emmins
1905 Sept quarter
Greenwich
1D 1830
On the same page Clara Bird
This is interesting though, I wonder if Earnest Emmins Osborne is the Ernest Hemmings Andrews whose birth I found in 1882?
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Hi groom and carol,
sorry to take so long, have been reading all of this and trying to work it though. I have a marriage entry here for Ernest and Clara Bird, just looking again, and see that Ernest's father on that one is Arthur, and also, as you say, middle name of Emmins, which to me looks very likely to be the Ernest Hemmings Andrews that you kindly found for me.
Some of this is beginning to make sense, apart from the 'at sea' birth, I may have to order birth certificate for Ernest Hemmings Andrews to be completely sure, as I am confused now as to whom his natural parents were. ???
I wonder if he was Fanny's child, brought up by Arthur, maybe his natural father was a sailor?
Thank you so much for all this helpful info :) :)
rosiejayne
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I'm not sure that he is Fanny's child, more likely to be a brother as there are 2 children listed as in laws on the 1891, Ernest and Edith. If they are Fanny's children she would only have been 14 when Edith was born. Also in the 1891 census, Arthur and Fanny have a year old daughter called Edith, Fanny isn't likely to have called two children the same name, but is more likely to have named her daughter after her sister.
It could well be that Ernest just put at sea on the census as a joke, or perhaps he didn't know where he was born. I think the clue here might be Edith born 1878. If we can find her with her family in 1881, that will show Ernest's parents.
Jan
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This is a possible
1881 RG11; Piece: 950; Folio: 26; Page: 8
Grocer's shop Smeeth Kent.
He seems to have put their gender in front of their names. ;D
William Andrews 37 Lab Smeeth
Esther Andrews 36 Ruckinge, Kent
F. Catharine Andrews 14 Willesbro
M. Charles Andrews 13 Smeeth
F. Rosanna Andrews 9 Smeeth
M. H. Andrews 7 Smeeth
F. Jane Andrews 6 Smeeth
M. Frank Andrews 3 Smeeth
T. Edith Andrews 2 Smeeth
F. Mabel Andrews 7mths Smeeth
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It looks as if William died, as Esther is a widow in 1891. However it either isn't the right family or she included Ernest on her census return even though he wasn't there on the night.
RG12; Piece: 701; Folio: 100; Page: 9
Esther Andrews 46 widow Grocer Ruckinge, Kent
Charles Andrews 22 Smeeth
Rosanna Andrews 19 Smeeth
Frank Andrews 13 Smeeth
Mabel Andrews 10 Smeeth
Ernest Andrews 8 Smeeth
Not sure now, as Ernest Andrews is still with her in 1901 RG13; Piece: 785; Folio: 93; Page: 13 However I cant find an Ernest Osborne that fits in 1901. If you are sure that you have the right marriage certificate for Ernest and Clara, as he gives his name as Ernest Emmins, it might be worth getting the birth certificate for Ernest Hemmins Andrews and see who that names as the parents.
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Hi groom
I think this is the right family, thank you. I knew the Andrews family came from Smeeth, and my direct ancestor would be Catherine on the 1881 census, which all ties in with what I know.
I think you are right when you say Esther put Ernext down on the census, although he wasn't living with the family at the time.
Maybe, as you say, Ernest did not actually know where he was born, and put down the first thing he could think of!
I think the only way forward for me is to get the birth certificate for Ernest Hemmins Andrews which will hopefull reveal all.
Your help in all of this has been fantastic, I have learnt a lot about this family today.
rosiejayne :) :)
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Please let us know how you get on when you get the certificate.
Glad to have been of help.
Jan
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Thanks Jan, I will. :) :)
rosiejayne
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The 1905 marriage is sounding very likely.
14th August 1905 at St Luke's Deptford.
Ernest Emmins Osborne 23 bachelor,fireman,23 Crook Road father Arthur Osborne Salesman
Clara Bird 23 spinster 19 Crook Road,father James George Bird decd Engineer.
Witnesses William Stapleton and Florence Ada Dodson
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Lily Violet Rose OSBORNE baptised at St Batholomew Camberwell on 10th Nov 1905, DOB 24th Oct 1905.
Parents Ernest Emmings Osborne and Clara of 15 Ablett Street hes a fireman.
Carol
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Maybe the enumerator heard birthplace 'at Smeeth' as 'at sea' ????
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Thanks carol
I think the 1905 marriage is the correct one, and thanks for the baptism of Lily Osborne :)
It also seems as though axecalibre may have a point with their post - I have been practising saying 'at Smeeth' out loud, and it really could be very possible!! ;D
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The trouble with that theory is that the 1911 census is the first one where we get to see what our ancestors have put and their actual signatures.
All previous censuses were copies of the copy that the enumerator had made.
So lots of margins for errors there.
I think it's more a case of he didn't have a clue where he was born (it wasn't that important back then,nor were ages or birth dates) so he put 'at sea' in the hope that no one really looked it up to check.
Carol
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That sounds possible carol, I guess nobody back then could even dream that descendants would be studying them in the way that we do now ;D
rosiejayne
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Just a thought - might not be relevant. Railway workers sometimes went abroad to work on constructing railways. Example only: In 1873 the ship Northfleet was hit by a foreign steamship 2 miles off Dungeness and sunk. She was laden with tons of railway iron and 400 labourers and their families bound for New Zealand to construct a railway.
Another possibility for birth at sea: The London Chatham & Dover Railway Co., and the South Eastern and Chatham Railway Co., ran passenger services between Dover & Calais. Would have to be a quick birth, though.
Anne P
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Thanks Anne, this is interesting - I think I really need to order that birth certificate now to solve this one :)
rosiejayne