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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: rosijayne on Tuesday 24 July 12 11:11 BST (UK)

Title: Born 'At Sea'
Post by: rosijayne on Tuesday 24 July 12 11:11 BST (UK)
On the 1911 census a relative of mine  name of ERNEST OSBORNE aged 29 states that he was born at sea. This would work that he was born in 1882.

However, his parents, ARTHUR WILLIAM OSBORNE and FANNY ANDREWS were married on 4/5/1889, which does not tie up with his birth date. They were married in the EAST ASHFORD area.

I suppose what's really puzzling me here, is why ERNEST was born at sea, when his father ( ARTHUR ) was a platelayer for the South Eastern and Chatham railway. I cant understand why they may have been at sea. Also, the date of birth not adding up.

Is there anyway I can view births at sea records, and would it necessitate buying a certificate to do so?

Look forward to hearing from anybody who can help here

rosiejayne
Title: Re: Born 'At Sea'
Post by: groom on Tuesday 24 July 12 11:27 BST (UK)
I dont know if this helps but this comes up under born at sea births

Armed Forces BMD  Birth

Ernest F W Osborne
Regiment:11th Hussars
Place : Mousley
1882
Volume : 274 Page: 76
Record source: GRO Regimental Birth Indices (1761 to 1924)

What does the 1891 and 1901 census say?
Title: Re: Born 'At Sea'
Post by: carol8353 on Tuesday 24 July 12 11:34 BST (UK)
Snap Groom  ;D , I was just going to ask if he had been found on earlier censuses?

Also,do you have his marriage cert,if so what info does it give about his father and who were the witnesses?

Carol
Title: Re: Born 'At Sea'
Post by: groom on Tuesday 24 July 12 11:39 BST (UK)
Found them on the 1891 -  This may just add to the puzzle, was Ernest actually Fanny's brother and not their son?

 RG12; Piece: 749; Folio: 115; Page: 34
 78, Coolinge Road, Folkestone



Arthur W Osborne   26  Platelayer SE Railway                 Sussex
Fanny Osborne   27                                                     Smeeth Kent
Edith Osborne   1  daughter                                              Folkestone
Ernest Andrews   10 brother in law                              Mersham, Kent
Edith Andrews   13    sister in law                                      Smeeth
Anne Tribe   17   servant
Ellen Daniels   54   boarder
Bertha E Andrews   23 boarder
Mary Louis Andrews   25  boarder
Fanny Vanstraweza   60  boarder
Title: Re: Born 'At Sea'
Post by: carol8353 on Tuesday 24 July 12 11:44 BST (UK)
Ah I have found the family in 1891,it is looking like Ernest was born an Andrews,not an Osborne.

At 78 Coolinge Road,Folkestone.


Arthur W Osborne 26 head ,platelayer on South Eastern Railway b Sussex
Fanny Osborne 27 wife b Sneeth? Kent
Edith Osborne dau b Folkestone.
Ernest Andrews 10 brother in law b Mersham Kent
Edith Andrews 13 sis in Law b Sneeth?

Anne Tribe 17 servant b Folkestone
Ellen Daniels 54 married boarder b Dover
Bertha E Andrews 23 boarder single living on own means b Bidborough
Mary Louis Andrews 25 Ditto ditto
Fanny Vanstraweza 60 boarder widow Ditto ditto b France
 
 Oh Groom you type faster than me  ::)
Exactly what I thought is Ernest brother to Fanny?
 
Title: Re: Born 'At Sea'
Post by: groom on Tuesday 24 July 12 11:47 BST (UK)
Looks as if Ernest may have taken the Osborne name as he was brought up by Arthur. He isn't with them in 1901


1901   78, Coolinge Road, Folkestone
Piece: 847 Folio: 100 Page: 22    

Arthur W   Osborne Head       M   36        Market Gardener           Hyden, Sussex       
Fanny   Osborne  Wife             F            37                                      Sellinge Hythe, Kent       
Edith E   Osborne   Daughter       F   11                                      Folkestone, Kent       
Arthur W Osborne   Son       M             9                                      Folkestone, Kent       
Elsie W    Osborne Daughter      F              8                              Folkestone, Kent       
Dorothy F V  Osborne   Daughter      F      3                              Folkestone, Kent

Plus servant and 4 boarders
Title: Re: Born 'At Sea'
Post by: rosijayne on Tuesday 24 July 12 12:14 BST (UK)
Thanks groom and carol, you are doing a fab job between you ! :)

I was still trying to locate 1891 and 1901 census, so very many thanks for all of this info.

It seems as though you may be right about ERNEST being born an ANDREWS, and taking the name of OSBORNE.

I looked at the birth at sea with interest, but do not think this one to be a connection, ( many thanks anyway groom ) as the family background does not seem to add up.

On the 1911 census ERNEST is married to CLARA, living in Peckham Park Road, South East London.  They had two children at the time, LILY and WINIFRED. If anybody would kindly like to confirm that I am not reading this wrongly under ERNEST, that he was born at sea.  I do not know how to post the link to that census, sorry, as my teenage son is out at the moment!!

Thank you for posting census info,

rosiejayne
Title: Re: Born 'At Sea'
Post by: groom on Tuesday 24 July 12 12:41 BST (UK)
The image definitely says at sea - are you 100% sure that this is your Ernest?


There are two Ernest Andrews born about the right time in Kent:

Ernest Edward Andrews   Sept quarter 1882  East Ashford  2A 776

Ernest Hemmings Andrews  March quarter 1882 East Ashford 2A 806
Title: Re: Born 'At Sea'
Post by: carol8353 on Tuesday 24 July 12 13:05 BST (UK)
So do you have the marriage cert of Ernest to Clara- what is her maiden name?

Carol
Title: Re: Born 'At Sea'
Post by: groom on Tuesday 24 July 12 13:24 BST (UK)
He isn't very helpful is he - says he has been married 6 years ie about 1905

There are 2 possible marriages with a Clara involved


OSBORN, Ernest Alfred
1905 Dec quarter
Lambeth
1D 811

on the same page Clara Parry

OSBORNE, Earnest Emmins
1905 Sept quarter
Greenwich
1D   1830

On the same page Clara Bird

This is interesting though, I wonder if  Earnest Emmins Osborne is the Ernest Hemmings Andrews whose birth I found in 1882?
Title: Re: Born 'At Sea'
Post by: rosijayne on Tuesday 24 July 12 13:37 BST (UK)
Hi groom and carol,

sorry to take so long, have been reading all of this and trying to work it though.  I have a marriage entry here for Ernest and Clara Bird, just looking again, and see that Ernest's father on that one is Arthur, and also, as you say, middle name of Emmins, which to me looks very likely to be the Ernest Hemmings Andrews that you kindly found for me.

Some of this is beginning to make sense, apart from the 'at sea' birth, I may have to order birth certificate for Ernest Hemmings Andrews to be completely sure, as I am confused now as to whom his natural parents were. ???

I wonder if he was Fanny's child, brought up by Arthur, maybe his natural father was a sailor?

Thank you so much for all this helpful info :) :)

rosiejayne
Title: Re: Born 'At Sea'
Post by: groom on Tuesday 24 July 12 13:49 BST (UK)
I'm not sure that he is Fanny's child, more likely to be a brother as there are 2 children listed as in laws on the 1891, Ernest and Edith. If they are Fanny's children she would only have been 14 when Edith was born. Also in the 1891 census, Arthur and Fanny have a year old daughter called Edith, Fanny isn't likely to have called two children the same name, but is more likely to have named her daughter after her sister.

It could well be that Ernest just put at sea on the census as a joke, or perhaps he didn't know where he was born. I think the clue here might be Edith born 1878. If we can find her with her family in 1881, that will show Ernest's parents.

Jan
Title: Re: Born 'At Sea'
Post by: groom on Tuesday 24 July 12 14:00 BST (UK)
This is a possible

1881     RG11; Piece: 950; Folio: 26; Page: 8

Grocer's shop  Smeeth Kent.

He seems to have put their gender in front of their names.  ;D

William Andrews   37       Lab                 Smeeth
Esther Andrews   36                              Ruckinge, Kent
F. Catharine Andrews   14                      Willesbro
M. Charles Andrews   13                              Smeeth     
F. Rosanna Andrews   9                        Smeeth
M. H. Andrews   7                                        Smeeth
F. Jane Andrews   6                                Smeeth
M. Frank Andrews   3                                Smeeth
T. Edith Andrews   2                                Smeeth
F. Mabel Andrews   7mths                         Smeeth
Title: Re: Born 'At Sea'
Post by: groom on Tuesday 24 July 12 14:13 BST (UK)
It looks as if William died, as Esther is a widow in 1891. However it either isn't the right family or she included Ernest on her census return even though he wasn't there on the night.

RG12; Piece: 701; Folio: 100; Page: 9


Esther Andrews   46  widow Grocer     Ruckinge, Kent
Charles Andrews   22                             Smeeth
Rosanna Andrews   19                             Smeeth
Frank Andrews   13                                     Smeeth
Mabel Andrews   10                             Smeeth
Ernest Andrews   8                               Smeeth


Not sure now, as Ernest Andrews is still with her in 1901  RG13; Piece: 785; Folio: 93; Page: 13  However I cant find an Ernest Osborne that fits in 1901. If you are sure that you have the right marriage certificate for Ernest and Clara, as he gives his name as Ernest Emmins, it might be worth getting the birth certificate for Ernest Hemmins Andrews and see who that names as the parents.
Title: Re: Born 'At Sea'
Post by: rosijayne on Tuesday 24 July 12 16:09 BST (UK)
Hi groom

I think this is the right family, thank you.  I knew the Andrews family came from Smeeth, and my direct ancestor would be Catherine on the 1881 census, which all ties in with what I know.

I think you are right when you say Esther put Ernext down on the census, although he wasn't living with the family at the time.

Maybe, as you say, Ernest did not actually know where he was born, and put down the first thing he could think of!

I think the only way forward for me is to get the birth certificate for Ernest Hemmins Andrews which will hopefull reveal all.

Your help in all of this has been fantastic, I have learnt a lot about this family today.

rosiejayne :) :)
Title: Re: Born 'At Sea'
Post by: groom on Tuesday 24 July 12 16:18 BST (UK)
Please let us know how you get on when you get the certificate.

Glad to have been of help.

Jan
Title: Re: Born 'At Sea'
Post by: rosijayne on Tuesday 24 July 12 16:33 BST (UK)
Thanks Jan, I will. :) :)

rosiejayne
Title: Re: Born 'At Sea'
Post by: carol8353 on Tuesday 24 July 12 16:52 BST (UK)
The 1905 marriage is sounding very likely.

14th August 1905 at St Luke's Deptford.

Ernest Emmins Osborne 23 bachelor,fireman,23 Crook Road father Arthur Osborne Salesman

Clara Bird 23 spinster 19 Crook Road,father James George Bird decd Engineer.

Witnesses William Stapleton and Florence Ada Dodson
Title: Re: Born 'At Sea'
Post by: carol8353 on Tuesday 24 July 12 17:03 BST (UK)
Lily Violet Rose OSBORNE baptised at St Batholomew Camberwell on 10th Nov 1905, DOB 24th Oct 1905.

Parents Ernest Emmings Osborne and Clara of 15 Ablett Street hes a fireman.

Carol
Title: Re: Born 'At Sea'
Post by: axecalibre on Tuesday 24 July 12 17:26 BST (UK)
Maybe the enumerator heard birthplace 'at Smeeth'  as 'at  sea' ????
Title: Re: Born 'At Sea'
Post by: rosijayne on Tuesday 24 July 12 17:53 BST (UK)
Thanks carol

 I think the 1905 marriage is the correct one, and thanks for the baptism of Lily Osborne :)

It also seems as though axecalibre may have a point with their post - I have been practising saying 'at Smeeth' out loud, and it really could be very possible!! ;D
Title: Re: Born 'At Sea'
Post by: carol8353 on Tuesday 24 July 12 18:35 BST (UK)
The trouble with that theory is that the 1911 census is the first one where we get to see what our ancestors have put and their actual signatures.
All previous censuses were copies of the copy that the enumerator had made.
So lots of margins for errors there.

I think it's more a case of he didn't have a clue where he was born (it wasn't that important back then,nor were ages or birth dates) so he put 'at sea' in the hope that no one really looked it up to check.

Carol
Title: Re: Born 'At Sea'
Post by: rosijayne on Tuesday 24 July 12 20:09 BST (UK)
That sounds possible carol, I guess nobody back then could even dream that descendants would be studying them in the way that we do now ;D

rosiejayne
Title: Re: Born 'At Sea'
Post by: anne P on Wednesday 25 July 12 00:02 BST (UK)
Just a thought - might not be relevant.  Railway workers sometimes went abroad to work on constructing railways.  Example only:  In 1873 the ship Northfleet was hit by a foreign steamship 2 miles off Dungeness and sunk.  She was laden with tons of railway iron and 400 labourers and their families bound for New Zealand to construct a railway.

Another possibility for birth at sea:  The London Chatham & Dover Railway Co., and the South Eastern and Chatham Railway Co., ran passenger services between Dover & Calais.  Would have to be a quick birth, though.

Anne P
Title: Re: Born 'At Sea'
Post by: rosijayne on Wednesday 25 July 12 07:59 BST (UK)
Thanks Anne, this is interesting - I think I really need to order that birth certificate now to solve this one :)

rosiejayne