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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Derbyshire => Topic started by: ladytodd on Wednesday 18 July 12 12:37 BST (UK)
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Before I begin, I know that it doesn't help that this person has the two most common names of all to search for. However, I would be extremely grateful if someone can 'crack' this one for me - though I don't hold out much hope as I have been looking for so long now.
John Williams born in Clowne Derbyshire married Hannah Wildsmith born 1856c in Brimington, Derbys - in 1873 in Belper. I have him in 1871 census and in 1881 census with Hannah and their children Frederick 1877 Beighton, Henry 1879c Eckington and Joseph 1880c Eckington living in Hollinsworth Road, Eckington. John's occupation was coal miner. I have found a death for a John in 1900 aged 44 which would fit in with his birth year. The problem I have is that I cannot find any trace of the family in the 1891 census. If the death for John is correct I cannot find any trace for Hannah or her children in the 1901 or 1911 census. Again if the death is incorrect I suppose they could have emigrated but deep down I don't think this is a possibility. If anyone can help me in any way to find this family or give me some pointers as to where I should look I will be very happy. Thanks in advance Ladyt ???
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Hi
The Marriage you quote for John Williams = Hannah Wildsmith September Q 1873 Belper 7b 767
is not correct. There are two couples in this listing and unless you find the church record or purchase marriage registration certificate you can never be certain who married who.
In this instance John Williams = Bridget Davidson Hazelden 6th July 1873 at Ripley Parish Church.
The bride was aged 30, single dau of Leonard Hazelden. The groom was aged 42 a Widower, son
of John Williams.
Ripley is in the Belper Registration District, and a July wedding would appear in September Quarter.
You can see the church record by searching:-
https://www.familysearch.org/
Spendlove
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I am pretty sure that John married a Hannah. As I already mentioned he is in the 1881 census with wife Hannah and children. He quotes his place of birth as Clowne which is correct for the John Williams I am interested in. As his wife is called Hannah I was looking for marriages around 1873 - 1875 to fit in with the childrens births with a spouse with the first name of Hannah. Hannah Wildsmith was the only one I could find that I thought had married a John Williams.
Ladyt
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Hi,
I agree he appears to have a wife Hannah - per census information.
According to Civil Registration Births, there are two recorded in the Chesterfield Registration District, this
district includes births in Beighton & Eckington, which are possibly their children:-
March Quarter 1879 Chesterfield 7b 714 for a Henry Williams
March Quarter 1880 Chesterfield 7b 724 for a Joseph Williams
You would have to purchase one of these certificates to discover the maiden name of the Mother.
I cannot find a birth for a Frederick Williams, which suggest he was possibly born prior to the marriage,
if this is the case then he will be registered in the Mother's maiden name.
In what Registration District is the death for a John Williams aged 44 ?
Spendlove
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Can you give the 1881 Census reference as searching on the Frederick born 1877 they don't show up?
Regards
William Russell Jones.
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I see them now!
Regards
William Russell Jones.
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Hi, I have John Williams death as 1Q 1900 Chesterfield Derbyshire 7b 576 aged 44 which fits in with his birth year. I was wondering if Frederick could be a middle name. In my experience if a child had the first name of the Father or the Mother even, they sometimes called the child by their middle name so the birth may be John Frederick - just a stab in the dark really ! Ladyt
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One thing is for sure there is no sign of any of the family after 1881.
Regards
William Russell Jones.
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This is what is so puzzling. I have been looking into this family since I have been researching my tree. I have never got beyond 1881 (obviously) and used to think they had emigrated. I keep coming back to them because I don't want to be defeated but I think I am going to have to throw in the towel now. I will now either order a birth certificate for one of the children - to get the mother's maiden name or order a death certificate for John to confirm it is the John from my tree. In a way I'm glad no-one else has found anything because then I know it's not me not looking hard enough - if that makes sense. Thank you for your time.
Ladyt :)
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Hi,
The death of John Williams is reported in the "Derbyshire Times & Chesterfield Recorder" on the 10th February:-
4th February at Killamarsh John Williams aged 44.
The above may not be the full announcement, this is all you can see on the British Newspaper site for the full
report you have to pay:- http://www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk/search/advanced, however there may
be someone who would do a look up for you at Chesterfield Library who I understand have this newspaper
on film.
Have looked for John Williams living in Killamarsh in 1891 without success.
If you do intend to purchase a certificate, I would opt for a Birth Certificate.
Assume you have John prior to his marriage, in 1861 he is with his parents and siblings in Clown, Derbyshire
by 1871 he is living with his married sister Mary = Samuel Gee December Q 1863 Chesterfield 7b 976, also
living with Mary are her siblings Alice Jane & George Williams, living Speedwell, Staveley, Derbyshire.
Will keep looking,
Spendlove
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That is very interesting information which I will look into tomorrow. If I don't get any joy then I will do as you suggest and get someone to do a lookup at Chesterfield Library. I will also order a birth certificate for one of the children to get Hannah's maiden name. I do already have John's information in the previous census' but thank you for taking the time and looking. If you come across anything else that may be of interest regarding John Williams I will be very interested to hear it. Thank you once again. Ladyt :)
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Hi, Have just received the certs (I ordered death for John Williams and a birth of one of their children). Guess what????? The death is not him. Informant was a Caroline Charlesworth and the occupation was an Iron Moulder and I know that mine was a Coal Miner. Back to the drawing board then ??? Hannahs maiden name was Searston. That's one mystery solved. If john didn't die in 1900 where are they in 1891 and 1900?? Ladyt
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Just to let you know I now have information that this family emigrated to Australia. It's only taken me two years to find this out. ::)
Never mind. Ladyt :)
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Hi Lady Todd, are you still looking for info on John Williams. I have just started trying to trace my family tree and have traced back to John but at this stage I have got no further. I am Frederick's granddaughter in Australia.
Regards, Middie01. :)
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Hi Middie, Nice to hear from you. I have actually done all I can now in my research for John. I do have lots of information on him and his family - children etc. in the UK and Australia. I still have a few gaps with a couple of his children's marriages but am happy with the info I now have. You have obviously read all the posts so you know that I had been looking for him for a long time. It didn't help that he had the two most commonest names in the UK John and Williams ::) Which of Frederick's children are you descended from? I would be very interested in any info you have on Frederick's childrens descendants. In return I do have lots of info on John that I can give you. Look forward to hearing from you again. :) Ladyt
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Hello Ladyt, My father was George, the eldest of Frederick's 8 children. As I said, I am new to this but will be able to help with some information on Fred's family. Unfortunately he passed away in 1935, 12 years before I was born so I never met him.
I know what you mean about looking up the name John Williams, very frustrating. I would really appreciate any information you will be able to give me on him and his family. Sounds like you have been doing this for quite a while.
The children were: George William, Victor Henry, Lily May, Grace Hannah, Leslie Frederick, Ruby Merle, Ronald Vincent and Earnest Roy.
His wife was Mary Rahn and she passed away in 1966.
It's bedtime here for me now so I will be in touch after I catch up on my beauty sleep....I need all I can get. :D Middie
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Hi Just quickly scanned your posts as I was looking for information on John Williams married to Hannah Searston. John Williams is my second great grandfather. His son John W Williams is my descendant. I have a picture of him and one of his brothers but I don't know which one. The photograph just had that it was my grandfather's (Clement Arthur Williams), father and uncle. They were referred to in the photo by the nicknames - Pot and Rinky. They lived in East Greta, now Gilleston Heights - a small town on the outskirts of Maitland, NSW. They were all miners. Not sure who the third man is.
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Hello, Nice to hear from you. I am not directly descended from John Williams 1855 but his older brother George Williams born 1850. John was the only member to emigrate to Australia. He married Hannah Searston in 1875. Her family also emigrated to Australia. He was a miner as you know but died in a mining accident in 1917 his son Samuel was badly injured but survived. I have details and marriages for all of his children except John W Williams - only his birth date of 6/4/1890 and a possible marriage in 1912 to Annie Brennan?? So any info you can give me on him would be great. In 1904 John W aged 14 and his Brother Ernest 12 were sent for trial for maliciously damaging a main pipe! I have other other info if you are interested.
The photo is interesting. Just to be clear is it John Williams or John W Williams? I know for sure that I don't have a Clement Arthur Williams. Where does he figure in your family? Ladyt
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It was John W (William) Williams. He did marry Annie Brennan. The other man in the hat is his brother, Rinky (maybe Arthur as he looks younger than John). I asked my mother but she could only remember him being referred to as 'Rinky'. John and Annie had three boys and a daughter. One of their sons was my grandfather, Clement Arthur (Dick) Williams. When he married he built a house behind them at Gilleston Heights (near Maitland). They all worked in the mines around the Hunter Valley region. He died in 1960 at age 70. My mother grew up next door to them and has very fond memories of him and Annie from her childhood.
Cheers JMCDD
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And yes would be interested in anything you have. Cheers. JMCDD
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Hello JMCDD and hello again Linda. John and Hannah are my great grandparents. I could not find a birth for Clement on the NSW BDM, I take it he was born after 1919? Are you in Australia?
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Yes, I am in NSW Australia. Grew up in Maitland (Gilleston Heights). John and Hannah are my 2nd Great Grandparents. My grandfather, Clement Arthur Williams was born in Maitland in 1926 and lived his whole life in Gilleston Heights (formerly East Greta). I have not been able to find a lot of information on him apart for him showing up in the Paterson electoral rolls and his marriage in 1945. He passed away in 1991.
Cheers JMCDD