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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: Nick29 on Sunday 15 July 12 13:44 BST (UK)

Title: Please help me get my sister off my back !
Post by: Nick29 on Sunday 15 July 12 13:44 BST (UK)
Because of the work that I've done on our family tree, my sister thinks I'm a genealogical genius (which I really am not !) and she keeps asking me to help find her husband's long-lost half sister.  It's OK - I know the rules about posting details of living people on here, and I will not be breaking those rules, especially since I know almost nothing about this half-sister !  ::)

My brother-in-law's father was married twice, and the half sister is apparently the product of his first marriage.  I did ask him if he could give me a marriage certificate for this first marriage, so I could search under the mother's maiden name, but when it arrived it was the certificate for his second marriage !   At first I thought there was nothing I could do, until I read the certificate more closely, and under the groom's 'condition' it gives the details of his first marriage, including the first wife's maiden name.

The problem is that I can't find any record of either the first marriage, or a record of any child bearing his name and his wife's maiden name (the birth would have been around 1930 - 1935).

So here's what I know :

Father's name:  Harold Leslie Sleigh.  b. 13 Feb 1909 Blythe Bridge, Stoke On Trent, England.  Died : 27 Jun 1962, Woolwich, Greater London.

Details from 2nd Marriage Certificate:

Date: 1 Nov 1945, Registry Office, Macclesfield, in the County of Chester.

Groom:
Harold Leslie Sleigh, Aged 36 years.
Formerly the husband of Minnie Sleigh, formerly Ritchie, Spinster, from whom he obtained a divorce.
Rank or Profession: R.Q.M.S. No. 7879377 C.M.P. (Regular).
Residence at time of marriage: 39 Parkgate Road, Macclesfield.
Fathers Name : Harold Sleigh. Profession: Railway Signalman

Bride:
Sheila Mary Leadbetter, Aged 26 years.
Spinster, No occupation shown.
Residence at time of marriage: Fir Mount, Bracknell Road, Crowthorne, Berks.
Father's name: William James Leadbetter. Profession: Mental Hospital Attendant.
(This is my brother in law's mother, and she died in 1982 in Eltham, Gtr. London)

I've tried finding a marriage between a Harold Leslie Sleigh and a Minnie Ritchie around 1930, with no success.  I've also tried finding children born with a surname Sleigh, with a mother's name of Ritchie, also without success.

There is apparently a family story that Harold was stationed in Belfast when the breakup of his first marriage occurred (he allegedly threatened the other man with a gun !), but there is nothing to substantiate this.  It does, however, make me wonder if Minnie Ritchie came from Ireland, and maybe they married in Ireland ?  The Sleigh family does have Irish connections in the past.  My brother-in-law thinks that the child was female, and could have been called Edith.

If anyone has ideas about the child, could they please PM me, because she could still be alive.  Otherwise, any ideas on Harold Sleigh's first marriage or the identity of Minnie Ritchie would be much appreciated.

Title: Re: Please help me get my sister off my back !
Post by: sallysmum on Sunday 15 July 12 14:02 BST (UK)
this may be silly question, but have you looked for a marriage of Harold Leslie Sleigh to a Miss Ritchie?  Is Minnie a nick name or shortened name?

sallysmum
Title: Re: Please help me get my sister off my back !
Post by: Nick29 on Sunday 15 July 12 14:19 BST (UK)
I've tried wildcards on both sets of surnames - no luck  :-\

 
Title: Re: Please help me get my sister off my back !
Post by: Spidermonkey on Sunday 15 July 12 14:30 BST (UK)
Presumably your brother in law is Harold's next of kin?  In which case couldn't he apply for his father's military papers which I think may contain personal data such as marriage and children
Title: Re: Please help me get my sister off my back !
Post by: ..claire.. on Sunday 15 July 12 14:54 BST (UK)
Hi

Have found these marriages on freebmd of a Minnie  Sleigh/Ritchie, in Birmingham, could it be your Minnie remarrying ?

Marriage Sept. 1942

Sleigh /Ritchie  Minnie   to Joseph Taylor   Birmingham  vol. 6d  page 1164

claire
Title: Re: Please help me get my sister off my back !
Post by: BumbleB on Sunday 15 July 12 15:05 BST (UK)
Another thought is - did he serve abroad?  Could he have married and produced the daughter whilst overseas?   :-\



Title: Re: Please help me get my sister off my back !
Post by: nanny jan on Sunday 15 July 12 15:20 BST (UK)
Hi,

Did Harold leave a Will?


Nanny Jan
Title: Re: Please help me get my sister off my back !
Post by: wrjones on Sunday 15 July 12 15:38 BST (UK)
Probate was granted to his wife Sheila Mary.

Regards
William Russell Jones.
Title: Re: Please help me get my sister off my back !
Post by: mshrmh on Sunday 15 July 12 15:53 BST (UK)
There are no Armed Forces birth registrations with surname Sleigh between 1889 & 1948, so any children of the first marriage would presumably have been registered under the relevant civil system (if any). Similarly there are no Armed Forces marriages with Sleigh surname prior to 1945.

I did look to see if TNA had a record for the divorce (they have some upto 1937) but nothing apparent from a search.
Title: Re: Please help me get my sister off my back !
Post by: Nick29 on Monday 16 July 12 00:09 BST (UK)
Thanks to PMs from wrjones and another RC member 'hume', I was able to order the marriage certificate for Harold's first marriage Minnie's second marriage, so we'll see what turns up when it arrives.  I have found a son from the marriage of Minnie Ritchie and Joseph Taylor - he was born in 1948, and if I can trace him, he may be aware that he has a half-sister from his mother's previous marriage.

Harold was active throughout WW2 and before - (allegedly) he was a young soldier in Bovington Camp in the 1920's, and in the 30's he was in Shanghai in the military police, and in WW2 he was in the Middle East (Palestine, Egypt, Jerusalem).  I'm trying to get my brother-in-law to apply for his army records - I have to go into hospital again in another week, so I have limited time to spend on that side of it.

Thanks to everyone who has chipped in so far with information - you've all made what looked like a thankless task at first into something which just might be solvable.  Please feel free to continue if you can find anything else - it is all much appreciated  :)
Title: Re: Please help me get my sister off my back !
Post by: sandiep on Monday 16 July 12 13:33 BST (UK)
there is a birth of an Edith Sleight in 1930 Hayfield Derbyshire but it doesnt give any parents on record I saw.

may just be a red herring of course!!
Title: Re: Please help me get my sister off my back !
Post by: larkspur on Monday 16 July 12 14:38 BST (UK)
There is a lady on Genes who has a Harold Sleigh born 1909 Stoke on Trent in her tree. Would it be worth while getting in touch with her? There are also 2 trees on Ancestry with Harold. But neither has any more information on him.
Title: Re: Please help me get my sister off my back !
Post by: nanny jan on Monday 16 July 12 14:40 BST (UK)
Hi,

FreeBMD entry for 1930 birth in Derbyshire shows mother's name as Roebuck.


Nanny Jan
Title: Re: Please help me get my sister off my back !
Post by: Joburg on Monday 16 July 12 17:21 BST (UK)
Hi,
   It was in answer to 'get my sister off my back'

Regards

Joburg
Title: Re: Please help me get my sister off my back !
Post by: Nick29 on Friday 20 July 12 13:37 BST (UK)
Well, I now have the marriage certificate of Joseph Taylor & Minnie Ritchie.

11 July 1942, Register Office, Birmingham.
Joseph Taylor, 36, Bachelor, Gun Filer, 147 Somerville Road Small Heath Birmingham, Father: Joseph Taylor (Dec'd), Tenter (linen).
Minnie Sleigh formerly Ritchie, 31, Divorced wife of Harold Leslie Sleigh, same address, Father: George Ritchie, General Labourer.

Witnesses: R J Ravenscroft, G H Workman.

Not much to go on  :-\  Can't even find a 'suitable' Minnie born in 1911  ::)
Title: Re: Please help me get my sister off my back !
Post by: Megran on Friday 20 July 12 14:50 BST (UK)
There is a birth of a Minnie Sleigh 1901 Macclesfield Registration Area, Cheshire.
FindMyPast. Could this be the one?
Regards,
Megran.
Title: Re: Please help me get my sister off my back !
Post by: carol8353 on Friday 20 July 12 14:56 BST (UK)
There is a birth of a Minnie Sleigh 1901 Macclesfield Registration Area, Cheshire.
FindMyPast. Could this be the one?
Regards,
Megran.

The marriage cert shows that Sleigh was her married name and that she was born Ritchie  ;)
Title: Re: Please help me get my sister off my back !
Post by: twilight on Friday 20 July 12 15:20 BST (UK)
There is a Minnie Ritchie b. Holbeck Free BMD (v.9b, p.307) Sept. Q 1905
Could that be her?  perhaps she fibbed about her age??
Twilight
Title: Re: Please help me get my sister off my back !
Post by: Megran on Friday 20 July 12 15:20 BST (UK)
Oops, many apologies. Must concentrate.
Megran
Title: Re: Please help me get my sister off my back !
Post by: JenB on Friday 20 July 12 16:18 BST (UK)
There is a Minnie Ritchie b. Holbeck Free BMD (v.9b, p.307) Sept. Q 1905
Could that be her?  perhaps she fibbed about her age??
Twilight

I think she died in 1906. Minnie Hardie Ritchie, 0, 1st q. 1906, Holbeck 9b 206
Title: Re: Please help me get my sister off my back !
Post by: carol8353 on Friday 20 July 12 16:24 BST (UK)
Maybe Minnie was illegitimate(born with mum's maiden name) and just took on her step dad's surname?
Title: Re: Please help me get my sister off my back !
Post by: Flattybasher9 on Friday 20 July 12 18:35 BST (UK)
The closest I can get is an Irene Minnie Ritchie, born 23rd November 1910, died December 1976 in Chelmsford, Essex, England.

Regards

Malky

Added, I have also found, Minnie Ritchie, born September 1910, Limavady, unfortunately, she died in the same month of birth.

Minnie Ritchie, born March 1912, Belfast.
Title: Re: Please help me get my sister off my back !
Post by: Nick29 on Saturday 21 July 12 09:13 BST (UK)
Thanks to all that have taken the time to research this  :)

Minnie Ritchie (Sleigh) was married again in 1942 to Joseph Taylor, so she would have died as Minnie Taylor.

I wish I could lay my hands on Minnie's first marriage certificate, but there's no trace of a first marriage in England/Wales/Ireland.

I think the only way forward with this is for my brother-in-law to apply for his father's army records, in the hope that there's something in there  :)
Title: Re: Please help me get my sister off my back !
Post by: carol8353 on Saturday 21 July 12 09:27 BST (UK)

I wish I could lay my hands on Minnie's first marriage certificate, but there's no trace of a first marriage in England/Wales/Ireland.


Maybe they never actually did marry Nick  :)

Shame that she married a Taylor,with a more unusual surname we might be able to work backwards from her death.

That's providing she didn't actually marry again for the 'third' time!
Title: Re: Please help me get my sister off my back !
Post by: Nick29 on Saturday 21 July 12 09:36 BST (UK)

I wish I could lay my hands on Minnie's first marriage certificate, but there's no trace of a first marriage in England/Wales/Ireland.


Maybe they never actually did marry Nick  :)



Well, that's possible, I suppose, but why should both Harold Leslie Sleigh and Minnie Ritchie say they were divorced on their second marriages ?  :)

Title: Re: Please help me get my sister off my back !
Post by: baggygenes on Saturday 21 July 12 09:59 BST (UK)
This maybe just a massive coinkydink
 but
theres a George Ritchie marrying a Pollie Clayton in 1916 Aston
and theres a Harold Sleigh marrying a Clayton in stockport 1936 (although first name is lily)
I'm wondering if a)Minnie is a middle name/known name and b) whether she was born pre Clayton/Ritchie marriage so was a Clayton and married as such
this would seem odd to divorce as a nee ritchie but marry as a clayton but well frankly I've seen stranger things turn up on certificates etc
Title: Re: Please help me get my sister off my back !
Post by: Nick29 on Saturday 21 July 12 10:04 BST (UK)
That's another possibility - thanks for that  :)

It has run through my mind that there may have been a clerical error somewhere, but not being able to find the first marriage, and not being able to find any children born as Sleigh with a mother's maiden name of Ritchie, seems to suggest that maybe these events did not happen in England or Wales ?
Title: Re: Please help me get my sister off my back !
Post by: ShaunJ on Saturday 21 July 12 10:25 BST (UK)
Quote
I was able to order the marriage certificate for Harold's first marriage

Quote
but not being able to find the first marriage

I'm confused, Nick !
Title: Re: Please help me get my sister off my back !
Post by: ShaunJ on Saturday 21 July 12 10:44 BST (UK)
Re Baggygenes "coinkydink" it looks like the Harry Sleigh and Lily Clayton who married in 1936 emigrated to Canada and settled in BC (there 's a public tree on Ancestry)
Title: Re: Please help me get my sister off my back !
Post by: Nick29 on Saturday 21 July 12 11:07 BST (UK)
Quote
I was able to order the marriage certificate for Harold's first marriage

Quote
but not being able to find the first marriage

I'm confused, Nick !

Sorry, I meant Minnie's second marriage  :-[   Put it down to old age and forgetfulness !  Original now corrected  :)

Title: Re: Please help me get my sister off my back !
Post by: baggygenes on Saturday 21 July 12 11:14 BST (UK)
Re Baggygenes "coinkydink" it looks like the Harry Sleigh and Lily Clayton who married in 1936 emigrated to Canada and settled in BC (there 's a public tree on Ancestry)

bother!!! 
Title: Re: Please help me get my sister off my back !
Post by: Nick29 on Saturday 21 July 12 11:40 BST (UK)
Ahh well, that's one less thing for me to look into  ;D
Title: Re: Please help me get my sister off my back !
Post by: ShaunJ on Saturday 21 July 12 11:45 BST (UK)
I looked at law notices in The Times, and records at TNA,  for the divorce proceedings but the only two I could find for "Sleigh v Sleigh" were from 1937, and neither of them involved a Harold or a  Minnie.

There was a Harold Sleigh cited as co-respondent in Wooller v Wooller in 1936 but that doesn't help! 
Title: Re: Please help me get my sister off my back !
Post by: ShaunJ on Saturday 21 July 12 13:05 BST (UK)
There's an interesting piece of information on this earlier thread: http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,595381.msg4456329.html#msg4456329

It looks like Harold was born Harold Leslie Stevenson
Title: Re: Please help me get my sister off my back !
Post by: Nick29 on Saturday 21 July 12 13:23 BST (UK)
There's an interesting piece of information on this earlier thread: http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,595381.msg4456329.html#msg4456329

It looks like Harold was born Harold Leslie Stevenson

And that was my thread too, which I can't remember posting.  This chemotherapy lark plays havoc with your memory  :-\

That would account for Harold Leslie being listed twice in the BMD indexes - once in 1909, and once in 1925.

P.S. I've spoken to my brother-in-law, and he says that his father joined the army at a young age, so maybe that's why the certificate was changed ?  He was 16 at the time.


 
Title: Re: Please help me get my sister off my back !
Post by: avm228 on Saturday 21 July 12 14:32 BST (UK)
Probate was granted to his wife Sheila Mary.


The probate calendar lists this a an administration rather than a grant of probate, so unfortunately it looks as though he died intestate. A pity - I was going to suggest that a will might well contain a mention of the daughter.
Title: Re: Please help me get my sister off my back !
Post by: ShaunJ on Saturday 21 July 12 19:46 BST (UK)
Just in passing I found this reference to LMS signalman Harold Sleigh moving from Blythe Bridge, Staffs to Macclesfield in 1939

http://www.btinternet.com/~nttsue/LMSnewsRetirementsPresentations1939.html

Title: Re: Please help me get my sister off my back !
Post by: Nick29 on Sunday 22 July 12 09:35 BST (UK)
That would be Harold Leslie Sleigh's father.  He was a railway signalman.

Thanks for finding that - I've passed the link on to my brother-in-law  :)