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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: iforani on Saturday 14 July 12 07:00 BST (UK)

Title: ? Muriel Annie(nee Smith)AIKEN,born Mary Ann SMITH, alias E M A M STANLEY
Post by: iforani on Saturday 14 July 12 07:00 BST (UK): Need help on this g grandmother, please. This query has already been posted in Cousins Connect magazine & elsewhere by a cousin of mine but have had no replies. My g grandmother, who was supposedly born Mary Ann SMITH, daughter of William & Eliza SMITH in Parramatta on 24/11/ 1868 (15893/1869 SMITH, Mary A . She is my mother's maternal grandmother who was known as Annie or affectionately MEM. When she was married to Edward Imlay AIKEN on 17th June 1895, in Geelong (VIC BDM 3390/1895)on the marriage certificate it states Elizabeth Mary Annie Muriel STANLEY, lists father as Thomas Charles STANLEY (publican) who was actually a jockey from Campbelltown who won the Melbourne CUp on Glencoe..and Emma Fieldhouse.
A birth certificate dated 20th June 1872 , for an Elizabeth Mary Stanley lists the father as Thomas Charles STANLEY (jockey) & Emma Fieldhouse.
But an Elizabeth Stanley (the real one) married a Richard Hawkey Hoskin on 1st march 1899.
On her death certificate, Edward's wife was called Muriel Annie, daughter of William SMITH & Eliza Cooper.
Muriel Annie used various names on the birth/death certificates of her children, viz
Elizabeth M H M (sic)
Elizabeth MAM
Annie M
Muriel A
Muriel Annie

Also their first born son was named Stanley CC (supposedly Charles Stanley, after the alias father)

They had 8 children. The eldest child was Muriel Victoria AIKEN, born 23 June 1895, Geelong, VIC. (ie several days after they married). VIC BDM 11853/1895 On this birth entry, they stated that thbey were married in 1894, when they actually married in 1895.
My mother was brought up by her grandparents & finds it hard to believe that her grandmother may have been (was by all accounts) pregnant when she married. Her grandparents were very Victorian. When her grandfather's daughter from his first marriage became pregnant out of wedlock she had to leave the home (and both of her children were put up for adoption).
The connection with the Stanley family is unknown at this stage. I do know that Muriel Annie's uncle (Charles) owned a hotel in Campbelltown & the Stanleys & Fieldhouses owned hotels there too. When I was investigating the heritage of William SMITH I came across a SMITH family with a son born (at the time my William SMITH would have been born,) ie 1845 with a direct connection to the Stanley family. If William Smith (mine) was in this SMITH family, then the William SMITH & Charles Thomas Stanley would have been step cousins. However it appears (from research from ROOTSCHAT members) that my William SMITH was born in Drayton, QLD (which align more with anecdotal evidence that he was born in Qld).
Muriel Annie, was she the daughter of William & Eliza Emma SMITH or was she the daughter of someone connected with the STANLEYS??
Deb
Title: Re: ? Muriel Annie(nee Smith)AIKEN,born Mary Ann SMITH, alias E M A M STANLEY
Post by: sparrett on Saturday 14 July 12 08:12 BST (UK): My g grandmother, who was supposedly born Mary Ann SMITH, daughter of William & Eliza SMITH in Parramatta on 24/11/ 1868

Deb, you do not make it quite clear (to me anyway) whether you have the certificate for this birth.

I understand you have certificates for other events mentioned, but this birth?

Sue
Title: Re: ? Muriel Annie(nee Smith)AIKEN,born Mary Ann SMITH, alias E M A M STANLEY
Post by: wivenhoe on Saturday 14 July 12 08:21 BST (UK): "....But an Elizabeth Stanley (the real one) married a Richard Hawkey Hoskin on 1st march 1899.
"

What real one please, what does this mean.

Where you have several birth certificates with variations of mother's name, is mother the informant?

Can you indicate how mother is named when mother herself is informant please?

What else from the marriage certificate...ages of bride and groom....his occupation...who are the witnesses...what religion?
Title: Re: ? Muriel Annie(nee Smith)AIKEN,born Mary Ann SMITH, alias E M A M STANLEY
Post by: majm on Saturday 14 July 12 09:18 BST (UK): Hi there,

On your other thread (re William SMITH) at reply # 21 you mention Mary Ann's dad used aliases....
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,606139.0.html

Well...if my William is the son of the William SMITH (alias Thomas SMITH, alias William Thomas Charrington )

So, it could well be that your Mary Ann SMITH knew that, and simply chose to copy Dad and use an alias or more of her own choosing too, and thus avoid being Mary SMITH.

I am not familiar with Vic Records, but I do know that RChat has this wonderful thread about the depth of details on Vic BDMs
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,373754.0.html

Cheers, JM
Title: Re: ? Muriel Annie(nee Smith)AIKEN,born Mary Ann SMITH, alias E M A M STANLEY
Post by: mum mum on Saturday 14 July 12 09:25 BST (UK): Hi
I'm confused, if her marriage certificate says that her parents were 'Stanley' what tells you that she was born a Smith?
Have you been told by family members that this was her birth parents names?

Is your Grandmother still alive so that we can't mention her name?

mum mum
Title: Re: ? Muriel Annie(nee Smith)AIKEN,born Mary Ann SMITH, alias E M A M STANLEY
Post by: Neil Todd on Saturday 14 July 12 09:32 BST (UK): The Mary A Smith born to a William and Eliza born at Parramatta was born 1869 not 1868. This was from a marriage of William Smith and Eliza Groves.

There are 8 other siblings from the looks of things. There are sveral William and Eliza Smiths as would be expected.

To have the correct person you would need to match Birth, Marriage and Death Certificates.

Neil
Title: Re: ? Muriel Annie(nee Smith)AIKEN,born Mary Ann SMITH, alias E M A M STANLEY
Post by: sparrett on Saturday 14 July 12 09:36 BST (UK): well Neil,
That answers my query in reply 1#.
It looks like the birth has certificate is not held.

The marriage of WILLIAM SMITH and ELIZA COOPER was at WEE WAA. (3566/1868 )

Sue
Title: Re: ? Muriel Annie(nee Smith)AIKEN,born Mary Ann SMITH, alias E M A M STANLEY
Post by: majm on Saturday 14 July 12 10:02 BST (UK): They must have returned to NSW ::)

NSW ER 1903 PARRAMATTA
Edward Imlay AIKEN, of Katoomba, engineers’ representative
Muriel Annie AIKEN, of Katoomba domestic duties

Cheers, JM
Title: Re: ? Muriel Annie(nee Smith)AIKEN,born Mary Ann SMITH, alias E M A M STANLEY
Post by: iforani on Saturday 14 July 12 10:38 BST (UK): Thanks guys.
JM, you are almost right..it was the grandfather of Muriel Annie who used the aliases (ie the William Smith/Charrington) ...am not sure whether she had much to do with him but if we were right then he lived out most of his life in Qld , while the SMITHs (William & Eliza & family) lived in Parramatta, NSW. She would have heard about the use of his aliases though no doubt.
Yes, Edward & Muriel did move back to NSW & I have the details of all of their children (in depth) including the drowning deaths of 2 of their children at Dunedoo. My mother grew up with her grandparents (who took her away from her parents).
Neil, yes I do have the birth certificate of Mary A Smith born in 1868 to William & Eliza SMITH (Eliza's mother, Mrs COOPER & Grandmother, Mrs HOWLETT are listed as witnesses)...NOT the Eliza nee GROVES. But thanks for this. Definitely Eliza COOPER.
Sue, yes I did order a marriage certificate but what I received was a copy taken from an original page where there are several marriages listed (attached). Info as follows
Groom Edward Imlay Aiken (company manager) Divorcee, June 1893,,,address Federal ? Palace, Melbourne, VIC , Usual address Sydney, parents...Unknown Aiken (naval officer) & Sophia Atkins..
Bride Elizabeth Mary Annie Muriel STANLEY (Domestic duties) address Melbourne Usual address Sydney,,parents Charles STANLEY (Publican) & Emma FIELDHOUSE
Date of marriage..17th June, 1895.
No info from the witnesses ...these appear to be registry office witnesses...Caroline Roswell & Harry Hanslow...same witnesses at other marriage...not people who I recognise (& I'm familiar with all of Edward's & Muriel Annie's siblings & their partners..and children).
I forgot to mention that my mother has helped me with the names of siblings of Muriel Annie, including their partners, children, legitimate & otherwise. It looks like she is who she claims to be, ie Mary Ann SMITH ..the birthday she celebrated was the birthday on the birth certificate of Mary Ann Smith. My question is...WHY did she use THIS alias (ie the Stanley one) & why did she have to use an alias at all, when her sisters had children out of wedlock? I am completely baffled by this woman who was quite beautiful in her younger days, who looked like from the photos take of her that she had never worked in her life, when she came from a very poor family & supposedly being the oldest would have been scrubbing floors from a young age & helping raise the growing family (particularly if the father worked away from home (stockman) in her younger days. There's something that just doesn't gel here. My mother knew her sisters (Mum's aunts) who visited frequently. What i'm asking is..does any one have any ideas why she would have used this particular alias & WHY would she continue with the charade for years after the birth of her first 2 children. Was marrying a divorcee so horrendous in those days?? Her husband was older but from what I've read, many women married older men & vice versa. Edward's family had a higher social status than Murie'ls (SMITHS) so it is possible that she lied to him about who she was, or lied for the benefit of his extended family. I thought that she may have actually been the illegitimate daughter of the STANLEYS or at least Emma (nee Fieldhouse) & I did order the birth certificate of a ROSA Stanley born to an Emma Stanley & an unknown father in 1869, but the mother & place of birth of this Emma Stanley were different from the other Emma.
Hope that I've answered your questions. Please get back to me if I haven't.
Cheers
Deb
Title: Re: ? Muriel Annie(nee Smith)AIKEN,born Mary Ann SMITH, alias E M A M STANLEY
Post by: iforani on Saturday 14 July 12 11:08 BST (UK): Hello Mum mum
Sorry I missed your post. She was, by all accounts, a SMITH. My Mum lived with her & her husband (Edward Imlay Aiken) until they died (Edward in 1938 & Muriel Annie in 1943). My grandmother has died. Her name was Edna Iris Aiken. Muriel Annie was my g grandmother. She is the lady in this photgraph that has just been restored by rootschat member WIGGY. By all accounts she was a real lady.
Title: Re: ? Muriel Annie(nee Smith)AIKEN,born Mary Ann SMITH, alias E M A M STANLEY
Post by: majm on Saturday 14 July 12 11:14 BST (UK): May I propose a very very very speculative reason for an assumed name….. I have nothing to indicate that my speculation is fair….

1.   Edward is a commercial traveller, so it is likely he had spent time in Victoria selling his products, most likely hiring a side room at various hotels to set up a display (and shout the bar etc). Perhaps it was Edward who knew the STANLEYS well enough to know the nee details for Mrs S.
2.   Perhaps Mary was of a similar age to Edward’s daughter who gave evidence AGAINST Edward at his divorce. http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/13900259 SMH 8 March, 1893
3.   Perhaps Edward was concerned and wanted a quicker and less public way out of any future marriage.
4.   Perhaps Edward suggested to Mary Ann that he was not yet fully free to lawfully marriage her (he was, but perhaps he suggested he was not), and thus if she really insisted on being married before the babe was delivered, that she would need to use an alias name.
5.   Perhaps Edward was quite familiar the names of Melbourne Cup winning jockeys and as Edward was a commercial traveller, (errr Company Director), I am sure he could ‘spin’ charm whenever he needed and perhaps match up names of female hoteliers with Melbourne Cup jockeys…..

I am sure there are many other speculations to explain why a young spinster would go to Melbourne to marry a man nearly old enough to be her own father, and despite her being old enough to give consent herself, SHE used an alias name, presuming of course that YOUR Mary Ann was actually a) Muriel Annie and b) married as Elizabeth Mary Annie Muriel STANLEY.

HAVE YOU COMPARED THE HANDWRITING for the bride on the mc, with ANY other handwriting by her around that time…. Did she register the births of her children? (RChat has a board just for that help too)

That’s a grand restore by Wiggy.

Cheers, JM
Title: Re: ? Muriel Annie(nee Smith)AIKEN,born Mary Ann SMITH, alias E M A M STANLEY
Post by: mum mum on Saturday 14 July 12 12:09 BST (UK): Hi
I still am not sure that I am convinced that Mary Ann was the daughter of William Smith, the only evidence is her death certificate and as we know they can easily be wrong. Then again I have seen marriage certificates with the wrong details as well.
Regarding Edward and Mary Ann's marriage, if Edward was in fact divorced, perhaps Mary Ann was not free to Mary under her real name.
Nothing looks certain yet.
mum mum
Title: Re: ? Muriel Annie(nee Smith)AIKEN,born Mary Ann SMITH, alias E M A M STANLEY
Post by: iforani on Saturday 14 July 12 13:48 BST (UK): Mum Mum
It's possible also that Mary Ann (Smith) aka Muriel Annie may have been married to someone else & this may be why she kept up the charade of being Elizabeth Mary Stanley for so long. Why did she name a child after Mr Stanley??? Why go this far?
As I mentioned previously she socialised with the SMITH sisters & was close to them & took on the identity of the oldest sister but she may not have been this person. She wasn't the Elizabeth Mary Stanley.

JM I checked the signatures & the postcards definitely match the writing/signatures of both bride & groom. Same people.
Deb
Title: Re: ? Muriel Annie(nee Smith)AIKEN,born Mary Ann SMITH, alias E M A M STANLEY
Post by: ~MERLIN~ on Saturday 14 July 12 17:51 BST (UK): Quote from: iforani on Saturday 14 July 12 07:00 BST (UK)

The eldest child was Muriel Victoria AIKEN, born 23 June 1895, Geelong, VIC. (ie several days after they married). VIC BDM 11853/1895 On this birth entry, they stated that thbey were married in 1894, when they actually married in 1895.
My mother was brought up by her grandparents & finds it hard to believe that her grandmother may have been (was by all accounts) pregnant when she married.

She is registered as being born in 1896 ???

I think you might have to check that birth certificate again :-\
Title: Re: ? Muriel Annie(nee Smith)AIKEN,born Mary Ann SMITH, alias E M A M STANLEY
Post by: majm on Sunday 15 July 12 01:04 BST (UK): Hi there,

Well spotted Merlin ! My index has this as 1896 and as: Muriel Vic AIKEN, dau of Edwd Finlay AIKEN and Elizth Mary Anni STANLEY. The ref # 11853. I can also see a NSW birth INDEXED in that same year …..
1896, Stanley C C AIKEN, son of Edward J and Elizabeth MHM AIKEN registered at Leichhardt #31673. I wonder if there were two chaps Edward AIKEN, one in Vic and one in NSW both having children in 1896 ?

Re the June 1895 marriage AIKEN=STANLEY, at Bourke St, Melbourne.
Edward Imlay AIKEN’s address was Federal Coffee Palace, Melbourne VICTORIA.
Elizabeth’s parents are recorded as Charles STANLEY (Publican) and Emma FIELDHOUSE.
Elizabeth’s age is given as 23 years, and her place of birth as Sydney NSW.

I note that the NSW BDM online index does have a STANLEY=FIELDHOUSE marriage registered Sydney in 1871 BUT the groom is recorded as Thomas Charles. (#980) . That couple did have a daughter born 1872 and registered as Elizabeth (online index has Elizabeth M #1443) and there were further children born to that couple, all seem to have their father’s given names as Thomas C or Thomas Charles and NONE just as Charles, so I am not sure why you are linking the lass married in Victoria in 1895 to that couple married in 1871 in NSW.

Do you have any birth certs for children of Thomas & Emma FIELDHOUSE? I am thinking that perhaps Rubina G STANLEY’s bc for 1887 registered Campbelltown NSW (#17270), could well list some details of that baby’s older siblings and their ages and any that had not survived at that time, AND the occupation for that Thomas C STANLEY.

Re Stanley = Fieldhouse, I suspect that there would be a connection back to the Publican of The Jolly Miller at Campbelltown NSW who was a George FIELDHOUSE. George & Mary Fieldhouse children include Emma Fieldhouse born 21 Oct 1846, baptised at St Peter’s (Campbelltown) 6 December 1846. Most likely George FIELDHOUSE married Mary PETERS at Campbelltown by Rev Thomas REDDALL in 1832.

Here’s some links to help you follow my thoughts:

http://srwww.records.nsw.gov.au/indexsearch/keyname.aspx
https://www.familysearch.org/

Re the Mary A SMITH birth cert for 1868 (ie making her about four years older than the lass listed on the 1895 marriage cert from Victoria for AIKEN= STANLEY) perhaps you have answered this question on the other threads, but may I ask here:
From the certificate or official transcript only, what is recorded against each of these headings please?

Date and place of birth of child
Name/s and whether present or not
Sex
Father’s name, occupation, age and birthplace
Date and place of marriage, previous issue
Mother’s name and maiden surname, age and birth place
Informant, (name, relationship, address)
Witness (1) (2) (3)
Registrar recording the entry, date registered, place registered
Name if added after registration of birth

If you have the 1872 birth cert/official transcript for Elizabeth M STANLEY, what is recorded against each of those same headings please.

Cheers, JM
Title: Re: ? Muriel Annie(nee Smith)AIKEN,born Mary Ann SMITH, alias E M A M STANLEY
Post by: sparrett on Sunday 15 July 12 01:56 BST (UK): Re the June 1895 marriage AIKEN=STANLEY, at Bourke St, Melbourne.
Edward Imlay AIKEN’s address was Federal Coffee Palace, Melbourne VICTORIA.
Elizabeth’s parents are recorded as Charles STANLEY (Publican) and Emma FIELDHOUSE.
Elizabeth’s age is given as 23 years, and her place of birth as Sydney NSW. JM

In the OP

When she was married to Edward Imlay AIKEN on 17th June 1895, in Geelong (VIC BDM 3390/1895)on the marriage certificate it states Elizabeth Mary Annie Muriel STANLEY, lists father as Thomas Charles STANLEY (publican) ……

Sue
Title: Re: ? Muriel Annie(nee Smith)AIKEN,born Mary Ann SMITH, alias E M A M STANLEY
Post by: majm on Sunday 15 July 12 02:17 BST (UK): Well, to add to the confusion ::) there was definitely SEVERAL chaps named Edward AIKEN in Sydney in the 1890s and into the 1900s.

Sands 1895 Alpha Directory Sydney
E J AIKEN, 155 Annandale Road, ANNANDALE.
E J AIKEN, Secretary Dairy Farmers’ Export Association, 173 Sussex St (Sydney CBD)
E J AIKEN, Manager Berrima District Cold Climate Farm and Dairy Co, Limited, Harris St (Ultimo/Pyrmont)

I mention this because Stanley CC AIKEN’s 1896 NSW birth is registered at NSW BDM’s Leichardt district AND the index has Edward J and not Edward I for the father’s given names.

There’s also the lass, Linda V AIKEN’s 1898 birth cert to consider, and her parents were recorded on the Index as Edward I and Annie M, registered Annandale NSW (#28263 on ONE of the indexes) What information was given on that bc as to that lass’ parentage, marriage, address, occupation etc. I suspect there has been recent endorsements at NSW BDM on that cert, and a new entry made ( ONLINE reference #180130/2005 versus 28263/1898)

Iforani, may I please ask what certs (or official transcriptions) you hold for this family of yours?

Cheers, JM
Title: Re: ? Muriel Annie(nee Smith)AIKEN,born Mary Ann SMITH, alias E M A M STANLEY
Post by: iforani on Sunday 15 July 12 02:48 BST (UK): :D
Thanks Merlin & JM
Just read your last post JM while typing this one. I have very few birth certs at this stage. My cousin has more, am not sure which ones he has. I can contact him but he travels a lot. He has gone around Australia & NZ meeting relatives & travelling to places where family lived. Those names that you gave are all Edward..he had various occupations & travelled a lot with his jobs (I suspected at one stage that he had more than one wife at that time,,, He went bankrupt in 1892 & 1898 (twice) so he had to keep working wherever he could. Would be good to check on that Leichhardt one though I'm sure that this was him. Will check with my cousin. The only certs I have are nsw marriage reg of SMITH & COOPER, NSW marriage transcript of COOPER & WALKER,death of ELIZA SMITH nee COOPER (NOTE Mary A listed as MARY A..not Muriel ANNIE...informant was brother CW SMITH), DEATH of WILLIAM SMITH28.11.1912 (eldest daughter MARY A listed as "ANNIE"..aged 44 correct..informant was her younger sister EDITH )..the only other ones I have are birth cert's that I have when trying to discover my grandmother Edna Iris Aiken's birth year as no B cert for her which is strange..won't confuse in this thread yet. I had the theory that my grandmother may have been the daughter of one of Muriel's SMITH sisters (they had quite a few children out of wedlock). Even though Edward had gone bankrupt they appear from all accounts to have been better off than the sisters.

continuing on..
Firstly...I have a Muriel Victoria AIKEN, birth 23 June 1895 in Geelong VIC (VIC BDM 11853/1895). I have a birth Stanley CC Aiken, born 1896 in eLeichhardt NSW NSW BDM 316/1896. I have sighted the Birth registration, not the birth cert of Muriel Victoria (aka Molly) & it did state 1895. I will have to dig this out. Last year my computer crashed & some of the info I had saved/scanned was lost; luckily managed to retrieve most of it. Family has Muriel Victoria's birth recorded as 1895 also. Re the Leichhardt address given with Stanley CC (remembered by Mum as Jack so ?). This was given to me by a cousin, a family researcher & I assumed it was correct. I've noticed that the entries are not always correct for Edward (no doubt he didn't make the entries as he was a very literate man...wrote numerous letters to the editor in Sydney on various issues). Have seen references as Edward J (this one which I assume is an error) also Edward Imley Aiken..typo error.
I could check the elctoral roll for Edward Imlay Aiken in 1896 for Leichhardt. I think that I have done this before though.
I am quite certain that the alias used by Muriel Annie (Mary Ann) of Elizabeth Mary Stanley is the same one in Campbelltown (same parents, same age (1872), the Stanleys & the Fieldhouses both ran pubs in Campbelltown (have checked this) but a salient point..thanks. Also Thomas Charles Stanley did go by the name Charles eg transcript below of some of details of Elizabeth mary's birth cert. Father listed as CHARLES STANLEY. Not Thomas. He was also known in racing fraternity as Charles STANLEY moreso than Thomas (have checked google references to him) so more commonly known as Charles. No I don't have any other birth certificates of the Stanleys but my sister does have a copy of Elizabeth Mary's. Will attach this if I can. Is only a copy of her email which is hard to decipher. My other sister enlarged it & she thought that there was no issue at that stage (Muriel first born). If you can read it, can you please give me your expert opinion MAJM about who would have written the name EMMA FIELDHOUSE at the right. My reason for asking this is as follows..When I ordered the birth certifiicate of the ROSA STANLEY born to Emma Stanley the writing is almost identical to that on the right (ie the writing of Emma Fieldhouse).

Born 20/6/1872 Surrey Hills
Name Elizabeth Mary Stanley (not present)
Father Thomas Charles Stanley jockey age 24 born Parramatta
Married August 1871 Parramatta
Mother Emma Fieldhouse age 23 born Campbelltown
Informant father Charles Stanley
signed 17/7/1872 registered 18/7/1872
1872/001443
no siblings listed

???Can't read the names of the witnesses but probably Dr. ? & Mrs Woodbridge?
I will also attach the birth certificate of Mary Ann SMITH. Yes i have given this info before but hard to remember it all i understand.

Am interested to hear back from you especially about my query re the Emma Fieldhouse writing.
Just tried to send this with 2 attachments so will send docs separately.
Title: Re: ? Muriel Annie(nee Smith)AIKEN,born Mary Ann SMITH, alias E M A M STANLEY
Post by: iforani on Sunday 15 July 12 03:03 BST (UK): Thanks for the info on COFFEE Palace. Thought it may have been this...
The change to the BC of Muriel Victoria Aiken would probably have been done by my cousin who has visited Geelong & verified certificates.& registers. He was also at the time searching for the father of Edward Imlay Aiken (an interesting one..another thread) as Edward was supposedly born in Geelong. I would assume that this is correct (Muriel born 1895) even though my mother insists a mistake. When I find my copy which i hope I have still here in my huge file...will attach this.
Attaching BC of Mary Ann SMITH (Muriel ANNIE).
The familysearch.org got it wrong with Edward listing his birth year (when it was his marriage year). Edward had a son called Henry Edward (but he went to NZ & married Beatrice May McCook) luckily as didnt confuse things any more. With the name Imlay it is reasonably easy to find info on him (compared to SMITH!!!), though sometimes they got it wrong & typed in a J for an I..can see how they do it as they are similar with the scrawly writing.
For some reason I cant attach the BC of Mary Ann...keeps saying file too large > 500 so ? Will transcribe after lunch.
Title: Re: ? Muriel Annie(nee Smith)AIKEN,born Mary Ann SMITH, alias E M A M STANLEY
Post by: sparrett on Sunday 15 July 12 03:05 BST (UK): An obituary in 1914 for jockey Thomas Charles Stanley says he used a name C. Stanley 1914

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/45272166?searchTerm="thomas charles stanley"&searchLimits=

death notice EMMA 12/5/1918

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/15782565?searchTerm="thomas charles stanley"&searchLimits=

Around the time of the birth you have listed for Mary Ann SMITH Emma Fieldhouse was donating money to the Prince Alfred Fund

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/13168759?searchTerm="emma fieldhouse"&searchLimits=l-australian=y

Sue
Title: Re: ? Muriel Annie(nee Smith)AIKEN,born Mary Ann SMITH, alias E M A M STANLEY
Post by: majm on Sunday 15 July 12 03:08 BST (UK): The information on those NSW Birth Certs from that era is usually written in the handwriting of the registrar's clerk recording it, often from verbal information provided over the counter (clerk notes whether the baby is 'present' or 'not present' at that visit to the registrar's office) apart from the informant's signature. The NSW BDM registers were first indexed (by volunteers) in the 1930s.

There are a number of public trees at Ancestry with Edward Imlay AIKEN listed. Most seem to be copies of each other, and they have the 1895 marriage as at Geelong. ::) and the bride as Muriel Annie SMITH ::) so I presume they haven't actually obtained a copy of that mc. They also seem to have 1895 for birth of Muriel Annie's baby ! and at least ONE tree has the baby's christening details as Muriel Victoria Kate (Molly) AIKEN, Christ Church, Geelong, Victoria, Australia on 25 July 1895.

Very very confusing

Cheers, JM
Title: Re: ? Muriel Annie(nee Smith)AIKEN,born Mary Ann SMITH, alias E M A M STANLEY
Post by: c more on Sunday 15 July 12 04:23 BST (UK): Hi
Have been following this tread.
Can I ask who was the informant on Muriel Annie AIKEN's death certificate in 1942?
Was this the first time that her maiden name was given as SMITH?
Was her maiden name always given as STANTLEY on all her childrens birth regos?
I would be checking the death notices of all her supposed "SMITH brothers and sisters and extended family" to see if there is any reference to an AIKEN as sister or Aunty. Also one of her "SMITH brothers and sister" marriage certificates may show her as a witness.
Your mother was brought up by this lady so did she know of the "SMITH brothers and sisters and extended family"?
Did her grandmother refer to them as her sisters and brothers, nieces nephews?
From her photo she is a very striking woman, so photos of her "SMITH brothers and sisters" may show a family likeness.
Cheers Leonie
Title: Re: ? Muriel Annie(nee Smith)AIKEN,born Mary Ann SMITH, alias E M A M STANLEY
Post by: iforani on Sunday 15 July 12 05:39 BST (UK): My computer is frustrating me so much! Again I just lost an entire message! :-[
Leonie, I don't have the death cert of Muriel Annie or any other cert's of her sisters. I think I will have to order one, probably Ruby's the youngest. As i mentioned before, the eldest daughter of William & Eliza SMITH was referred to as A) Mary A & b) Annie on the death certifcates of respectively, the mother's & the father's death cert's (informants were a) the brother Charles & b) the sister Edith. Muriel Annie was known by the women Mum knew to be her sisters, as ANNIE or MUR or by her husband (MEM)..Mary Elizabeth Muriel ??. Strange.
She lived as a SMITH, as if she was a SMITH, with SMITH girls as her sisters. Some of the SMITH sisters had children illegitimately & my mother knew these as aunts (eg Gertrude was actually Muriel's niece but my Mum thought she was an aunt. But then, Mum was born in 1924. She was 18 when her grandmother died. So Leonie, it is very confusing. Muriel Annie used an alias when she married & continued to use this alias for several years. MAJM has explained some very good reasons why she may have done this. However she does not look like the SMITHS. I've just found out that THOMAS COOPER who was Mary ANN SMITH's maternal grandfather was only short (5 foot). The SMITH women were small. Muriel Annie was quite a tall woman for her time. She looked youthful in her thirties (strange as I mentioned before if she had been brought up in a poor household); also according to my mother she had a lot of grace about her. Some things just don't add up.
:D :DThanks Sparett for the info on Charles Stanley..I've seen quite a few references to him where he's called Charles.
Re family likenesses...hmmm..I've checked out family photos of Mum's second cousin's children. There are some slight likenesses but these may be coincidental. There was a lot of tragedy in this family..2 of Muriel's children died in infancy. Her eldest daughter Muriel had 2 children (one accidentally hung himself aged 2, the other daughter Molly or Muriel, has spasticity & never had children (she looks I believe like Sophia, Edward's mother, not like Muriel at all), 2 boys died at Dunedoo drowned..Dudley & Frank, one son Louis Dutlinger (Bob) became mentally backward (became so traumatised by the deaths of his brothers..?? what i was told anyway), another daughter Ihlien Edith had spina bifida & had no children...MY GRAN WAS THE ONLY CHILD to reproduce children who had children..so this reduces the odds of finding familial similarities. AND..my mother looks more like her father's side. My MUm says that I have her grandmother's cheekbones but I think I look more like my father's grandmother who also had high cheekbones...aaaah

MAJM thanks for hanging in here. Thank you for that info on the clerks. This explains why probably the same writing as births were at a similar time, though I think that I checked on thsi once before, got a list of the clerks & they were different.

Re the public trees on Mundia (mine not there yet). Yes people tend to copy paste. I've noticed that my Eliza Cooper is up there in some of these trees as marrying George YEATMAN (an EMMA Eliza Cooper married George Yeatman, not my Eliza). Did you check the johemath one...he is the tree that has about 25,000 names on it. He may not have even accurately written in that she was married using an alias; there isn't much scope on the Mundia site to add in info like this.
It is all very confusing. People have assumed that because Muriel Annie knew & recognised the SMITHs as her family that she was MARY ANN SMITH. She celebrated the birthday of Mary Ann SMITH. At one stage I was so convinced that she was someone else that i asked my sister to do a astrological reading with the birth date of Mary Ann SMITH. She said that the reading corresponded to what she had been told by MUM.
MAJM details of MARY ANN SMITH as follows
date 24.11.1868
place phillip st parramatta
female
father William SMITH
labourer
age 22
father born brisbane, qld
mother eliza cooper
age 21
born parramatta
informants...mother eliza smith

witnesses
1) blank a home birth??
2) Mrs Howlet (spelt with one t not 2)...?eliza's grandmother Mary Howlett?
3) Mrs Cooper ?(eliza's mother Mary Cooper, or aunt)

Partic's of reg'n
Percy Simpson ? 5th January 1869, Parramatta

As she was born late in the year November, the birth wasnt registered until the next year...
Title: Re: ? Muriel Annie(nee Smith)AIKEN,born Mary Ann SMITH, alias E M A M STANLEY
Post by: majm on Sunday 15 July 12 05:53 BST (UK): The registrar was E G Ward, as in Edward G Ward. That's his usual signature that is hard to read on Elizabeth Mary STANLEY NSW birth cert of 1872.

Sands 1869 Alpha Dir SYDNEY
Thomas STANLEY, 144 Bourke St (one of the Stanley Brothers & McCabe, their hay and corn store was at 126 William St)

Sands 1871 Alph Dir SYDNEY
Thomas STANLEY, 8 Hill St, SURRY HILLS

Sands 1873 Alpha Dir SYDNEY
Charles STANLEY, horse trainer, Chelsea St REDFERN

Cheers, JM
Title: Re: ? Muriel Annie(nee Smith)AIKEN,born Mary Ann SMITH, alias E M A M STANLEY
Post by: iforani on Sunday 15 July 12 06:50 BST (UK): Thanks MAJM. It's a different registrar on the birth cert that I mentioned in a previous post, indecipherable also....jacques??? (Rosa Stanley born to Emma Stanley 14th August 1870 not present, Emma Stanley as informant & a Mrs Stanley as witness, address in the Uk given as ? London. The C on the town name before London...Clarkeswell is wriiten with the gusto as the C in the Charles Stanley....so you are most likely right..it would have been the clerk (registrar has different writing). The handwriting of the name EMMA on right is almost identical. I was an English teacher so recognise these things). I have scanned this birth cert but it's 900 or so k. How do I make it smaller so that I can attach it, any ideas?
Title: Re: ? Muriel Annie(nee Smith)AIKEN,born Mary Ann SMITH, alias E M A M STANLEY
Post by: majm on Sunday 15 July 12 07:00 BST (UK): You use your puter to "resize" it. I think there's usually a very simple tool within the old "Paint" accessories. Alternatively, take a SNIP with your snip tool and save as a jpeg. ;D (I learnt those tips at RChat !) Don't forget to change the file name, and to "Save As" or you could end up overwriting your scan with a smaller image.

Cheers, JM
Title: Re: ? Muriel Annie(nee Smith)AIKEN,born Mary Ann SMITH, alias E M A M STANLEY
Post by: mum mum on Sunday 15 July 12 07:09 BST (UK): Either that, or rescan and save as a different size.
mum mum
Title: Re: ? Muriel Annie(nee Smith)AIKEN,born Mary Ann SMITH, alias E M A M STANLEY
Post by: c more on Sunday 15 July 12 07:09 BST (UK): How terribly sad for the family to lose young child the way they did. :'(
Sorry thought you had the death cert.
Quote
On her death certificate, Edward's wife was called Muriel Annie, daughter of William SMITH & Eliza Cooper.
Do you have any doubt about that the marriage in 1895 in VIC between AIKEN and STANLEY being your lady?
To be able to make out you are someone else would have to mean the you had a good knowledge about the person you were
making out to be, especially knowing the maiden name of FIELDHOUSE for your pretend mother, seems strange. ???
Do you have that marriage cert ?
Cheers Leonie
Title: Re: ? Muriel Annie(nee Smith)AIKEN,born Mary Ann SMITH, alias E M A M STANLEY
Post by: iforani on Sunday 15 July 12 07:25 BST (UK): Thanks for the info re resizing...will give it a go. :) :) Great ideas. Right now have to take my little pup for a walk.

Yes it was sad, a tragic family. So much sadness. The little boy Dudley (ie only son of Muriel eldest daughter, was apparently found hung around those old fashioned clothes lines. The story goes that he loved planes & he used to grab the line & go around the pole with it, but obviously he did this & got I've seen a photo of that little boy absolutely beautiful, blonde with blue eyes. When I met his sister my son was about the same age as the boy when he died & she commented how much my son looked like him.
The other young boys died at a railway dam at Dunedoo. One got stuck out in the mud & reeds & the other boy tried to rescue him & died also. Trove reports about this incident.
Leonie, some info I have is from a relation of mine..I have few actual certificates.
Yes I am certain that the pair who married in 1895 is the same pair who lived together in Sydney, Katoomba, Dunedoo etc. I have postcards that match the handwriting with the marriage certificate.
Title: Re: ? Muriel Annie(nee Smith)AIKEN,born Mary Ann SMITH, alias E M A M STANLEY
Post by: majm on Sunday 15 July 12 07:37 BST (UK): Quote from: iforani on Sunday 15 July 12 07:25 BST (UK)
The little boy Dudley (ie only son of Muriel eldest daughter,

Sorry, but I thought DUDLEY was Muriel's son..... birth registered in 1907 at Katoomba. I cannot see Muriel's daughter being old enough to have a son born in 1907.

1907 birth Dudley E AIKEN, son of Edward I and Muriel A, #14266.
1916 death Dudley E AIKEN, son of Edward I and Muriel A #2358 (Merriwa)

I am becoming very confused now.

Cheers, JM
Title: Re: ? Muriel Annie(nee Smith)AIKEN,born Mary Ann SMITH, alias E M A M STANLEY
Post by: ~MERLIN~ on Sunday 15 July 12 07:41 BST (UK): Quote from: c more on Sunday 15 July 12 07:09 BST (UK)

Do you have any doubt about that the marriage in 1895 in VIC between AIKEN and STANLEY being your lady?
To be able to make out you are someone else would have to mean the you had a good knowledge about the person you were making out to be, especially knowing the maiden name of FIELDHOUSE for your pretend mother, seems strange.
Do you have that marriage cert ?

The marriage certificate is attached to reply #8
Title: Re: ? Muriel Annie(nee Smith)AIKEN,born Mary Ann SMITH, alias E M A M STANLEY
Post by: majm on Sunday 15 July 12 07:47 BST (UK): Further confusion,

Trove

Dubbo Liberal and Macquarie Advocate has the licencee of the Dunedoo Hotel, Dunedoo as Edward Finlay AIKEN. http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/77611429 As per cutting re the Licensing Court.

SMH 1 Feb 1916 has Dudley drowning along with his brother Frank at Dunedoo. http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/28781086

Dubbo Liberal 1 Feb 1916 has the two lads as sons of Mr E J AIKEN, proprietor of the hotel at Dunedoo.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/77604280

Not sure where the old fashioned clothes line comes into the picture at all, sorry

ADDING to show why I am currently confused

Quote from: iforani on Sunday 15 July 12 07:25 BST (UK)
The little boy Dudley (ie only son of Muriel eldest daughter, was apparently found hung around those old fashioned clothes lines. The story goes that he loved planes & he used to grab the line & go around the pole with it, but obviously he did this & got I've seen a photo of that little boy absolutely beautiful, blonde with blue eyes.
......... The other young boys died at a railway dam at Dunedoo. One got stuck out in the mud & reeds & the other boy tried to rescue him & died also.
.

Cheers, JM
Title: Re: ? Muriel Annie(nee Smith)AIKEN,born Mary Ann SMITH, alias E M A M STANLEY
Post by: majm on Sunday 15 July 12 07:57 BST (UK): FOUND A CONNECTION TO SMITH
[/b]

The Cumberland Argus and Fruitgrowers Advocate, PARRAMATTA Wed 9 Feb 1916.

The two sons of Mr Edward I AIKEN …. WERE BURIED FROM THE RESIDENCE OF THEIR AUNT, Miss SMITH of Onslow Street GRANVILLE …….

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/86070598

I will try my NSW ER for 1913 for that Miss SMITH

Cheers, JM
Title: Re: ? Muriel Annie(nee Smith)AIKEN,born Mary Ann SMITH, alias E M A M STANLEY
Post by: majm on Sunday 15 July 12 08:09 BST (UK): NSW ER 1913, GRANVILLE Electorate, polling at Granville,
Edith SMITH, Onslow Street dd
Louisa SMITH, Onslow Street general servant

Fingers crossed

Cheers, JM
Title: Re: ? Muriel Annie(nee Smith)AIKEN,born Mary Ann SMITH, alias E M A M STANLEY
Post by: iforani on Sunday 15 July 12 08:15 BST (UK): Thanks MAJM yes that's them. The SMITH " sisters" lived at GRANVILLE...Edith (Edie) and Louisa (Louie). Edith was looking after William SMITH at ONLOWS St Granville when he died. She is the informant & in the death notice in the paper her address is Onslow St. Edith never married.

Will print off the post that i was writing when your post came in...as follows...
SORRY SORRY MAJM. :-[ I was talking about the tragedy of Muriel Victoria's son Dudley who was hung. There was a lot of tragedy as Leonie commented & i was talking about some of this. There were TWO Dudleys, son of Muriel Annie & Edward & son of Muriel Victoria & her husband. Sorry about this. Yes, Muriel Annie's son Dudley drowned in 1916 in a railway dam with his brother Frank.

Below is what I posted in the photo restoration thread re the back of that photo. This is for MAJM as relates to a query of hers & info re photographers etc.

It was a postcard & I had done acopy of a copy (Mum had the opriginal) post as follows..MAJM I called my mother & she found the original (I had taken a copy of a copy). It is a post card photo which reads...Postcard This space may be used for communication. ;)
Also :) :) :) the following is written..
To Mollie, From Father and Mother & Dud. Dud is 4 years old.

(Mollie was Muriel Victoria, the oldest daughter aged 16 in 1911, attended a Convent boarding school in Geelong VIC. The photo was probably taken on his birthday)

This mean that this photo was taken in 1911, as MAJM reminded me that Dudley (Dudley Edmund Aiken) was born in 1907.
Title: Re: ? Muriel Annie(nee Smith)AIKEN,born Mary Ann SMITH, alias E M A M STANLEY
Post by: majm on Sunday 15 July 12 08:22 BST (UK): The article is confirming that Miss SMITH was the AUNT of the two boys. The article does NOT say that Miss Smith was their aunt via their MUM or via their DAD, but it seems likely from what you have posted on your several threads that the Miss SMITH was their aunt via their Mum.

Here is the link to the thread that Iforani mentions re Dudley.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,606527.0.html

I am thinking of having a break, OH is starving, and there's strange noises from the kitchen, the fridge door keeps being open and shut .... :)

Cheers, JM
Title: Re: ? Muriel Annie(nee Smith)AIKEN,born Mary Ann SMITH, alias E M A M STANLEY
Post by: iforani on Sunday 15 July 12 08:34 BST (UK): :)
Thanks so much for all your help MAJM. I don't want to drive you mad. Had written my post when you were writing. Hope I cleared up any confusion re the Dudleys. Sorry to waste your time which I know is precious. My father's name is also DUDLEY, :). I can hear you groan!!! Yes please have a break.

There in your post is yet another mistake made by the NEWSPAPER reporting Edward as Edward Finlay Aiken and the other as EJ Aiken. This was a typo as was the one in the Birth entry. Remember. There are several articles in Trove about the drowning. The whole sad story. Edward had just got back from Katoomba (where they had another house, actually 2 I think, one a home & one a boarding house) when this happened. Muriel Annie ran the hotel (which was actually owned by William Wish Aiken, Edward's son from first marriage).
I LOVE your banner saying found connection to smith....there are quite a few connections to the smiths in trove...death of muriel annie etc. I think that you are still confused by my original request. I know that Muriel Annie claimed to be a SMITH & called the smith girls her sisters. There is no doubt that she associated with the Smiths & that they claimed her as their sister. I guess you are saying that this is proof that it's the same couple, yet I knew this (from anecdotal evidence) also same writing on the postcard & marriage register. My query is that I still doubt she is a smith, for the reason I've given previously. Hope that you are still not confused. Sorry about this. I will copy a photo of Edith (the lady you found living at Onslow St Granville)...later.
Cheers Deb
Title: Re: ? Muriel Annie(nee Smith)AIKEN,born Mary Ann SMITH, alias E M A M STANLEY
Post by: majm on Sunday 15 July 12 09:22 BST (UK): Quote from: majm on Sunday 15 July 12 08:22 BST (UK)
The article is confirming that Miss SMITH was the AUNT of the two boys. The article does NOT say that Miss Smith was their aunt via their MUM or via their DAD, but it seems likely from what you have posted on your several threads that the Miss SMITH was their aunt via their Mum.

Do you have earlier than 1916 evidence that Mr AIKEN's two lads were acknowledged as nephews of Miss SMITH of Onslow St Granville?

Have you considered that they may be nephews of that Miss SMITH via their father? Perhaps he had a half-sister with the surname SMITH.

Cheers, JM
Title: Re: ? Muriel Annie(nee Smith)AIKEN,born Mary Ann SMITH, alias E M A M STANLEY
Post by: iforani on Sunday 15 July 12 09:55 BST (UK): No I don't have any evidence like this. There are Smiths on Edward's side. One of his half sisters, Agnes Eliza Zela Imlay (alias many other names, Zelia Eliza Imlay/Atkins) married a Francis Lewis SMITH, but these Smiths aren't connected. I am sure that there are postcards that I have that mention Edie (the Edith SMITH) so will check these.
With your attention to detail you've convinced me that I must get the death cert for Muriel Annie. Will do so tonight. I just tried to post some copies of photocopied photos sent to me by Edith Maud Smith's g grandaughter...but file again too big. Will get to this after dinner.
Cheers Deb
Title: Re: ? Muriel Annie(nee Smith)AIKEN,born Mary Ann SMITH, alias E M A M STANLEY
Post by: majm on Sunday 15 July 12 10:43 BST (UK): Quote from: iforani on Sunday 15 July 12 09:55 BST (UK)
No I don't have any evidence like this. There are Smiths on Edward's side. One of his half sisters, Agnes Eliza Zela Imlay (alias many other names, Zelia Eliza Imlay/Atkins) married a Francis Lewis SMITH, but these Smiths aren't connected. I am sure that there are postcards that I have that mention Edie (the Edith SMITH) so will check these.
With your attention to detail you've convinced me that I must get the death cert for Muriel Annie. Will do so tonight. I just tried to post some copies of photocopied photos sent to me by Edith Maud Smith's g grandaughter...but file again too big. Will get to this after dinner.
Cheers Deb

It is best, when researching SMITH in NSW to spend the pennies on the official transcripts and get to know the subjects and the informants and the issues of the marriages and where they all lived at various times, and fit them into a time line.

Here's some more SMITH sightings.

NSW ER 1903 PARRAMATTA, polling at Parramatta. There are, of course, many with the surname SMITH just at that polling place. The ones that follow are of Harris St., which to my way of thinking would be less than a mile to Onslow St via Shanks Ponies. The rolls do not indicate any marital status, and NO house numbers, so they are not in household order. They are in alphabetical order by given names.
SMITH of Harris St
Alexander William Sampson, traveller
Charles William, labourer
Eliza, dd (there are 6 females named Eliza Smith and 6 named Elizabeth Smith just for that polling place, just this one at Harris St
Ellen Mary F, dd
Louise Amelia, dd
Mary Ann, pensioner
Sidney, junior, baker
William, engine-driver (it does NOT say Railway engine driver, it could for example be a stationary engine that he operated, or a steam driven engine operating a digger, dozer, road construction equipment etc)

Following up on Charles William SMITH. (Remember you mentioned that name perhaps as the informant on William Peter SMITH’s dc, but I have not read back to check which thread that info appears on) There were two chaps by that name, the one above at Harris St, and:

Charles William at Galloway St, a baker. So I have looked at Galloway St enrollments for SMITH as well :
Edward Henry, fitter
Elizabeth, dd
Henry Ernest, carter
Kate, dd
Maria, dd
Peter, labourer
Reuben, gardener

Also, re Sidney, junior, the baker of Harris St. There’s a Sidney SMITH, signalman of Wigram St and a Sophie L of Wigram St and many others of Wigram St.

Fingers crossed you can sort out the various SMITH sightings in 1903 at Harris St, Galloway St and the couple I tossed in for Wigram St. I am sure that you would not be connected to the Eliza SMITH of Hunter St, as her occupation was listed as ‘prisoner’. May I also note that historically, it was not yet compulsory to enrol, but that the NSW 1903 roll included females aged 21 and over.

Cheers, JM
Title: Re: ? Muriel Annie(nee Smith)AIKEN,born Mary Ann SMITH, alias E M A M STANLEY
Post by: mum mum on Sunday 15 July 12 11:08 BST (UK): Hi
I have been trying to follow this over the last couple of days.
My suggestion with the Smith's would be to follow the marriages and children of the family, try to completely 'map' their families to see where they all were. Only then, I think you will be able to definitely say which 'Smith' families are yours.
Possibly by following these families you may turn up evidence of a connection with yours.

mum mum
Title: Re: ? Muriel Annie(nee Smith)AIKEN,born Mary Ann SMITH, alias E M A M STANLEY
Post by: iforani on Sunday 15 July 12 13:05 BST (UK): :) :)
Thanks Mum mum, have replied to you offline. This thread is confusing. I have done the Smith family tree & I know where Muriel Annie fits into this if she is who she says she was (my query suggested that she may not have been a SMITH at all, but someone who was accepted into the family & who took on the identity of Mary Ann SMITH.0). She used an alias when she married & she may have used another alias for the rest of her life, the Smith alias. Maybe I will never know & will have to accept that she was Mary Ann SMITH. I will keep looking into it & will add to this thread when i have more info that is definite. You guys have taught me a lot about researching & i appreciate all the tips.

:) :)MAJM, the William SMITH engine driver is most likely Muriel's "fathër" William Smith who was an engine driver when he died. Ellen Mary SMITH is the only other one in your list that I can identify.

For the record, the Smith family is as follows..Mary A SMITH 1868- (Muriel Annie- 1942).
Charles William 1870-1910
Elsie Mary 1873-1875
Thomas H (probably Harvey, after uncle) 1875-1876
Albert Edward 1876-1878
Louisa (Louie) 1871-1931
Edith Maud (Edie) 1878-
Matilda Jane 1880-1881
Una May 1884-1950
Ellen Mary (Nellie) 1882- 1958
Ruby JV 1889- ?
Mary A, Charles, Louisa, Edith, Una, Ellen, Ruby are mentioned on Eliza's death cert as well as 2 females 2 male children. Mary A (Annie), Louisa, Edith, Una, Ellen, Ruby are mentioned on William's plus 3 males , 2 females. Charles had died in 1910. I recall reading somewhere that a William was born in 1867, so this is confusing. Neither Louie nor Edie married though they both had issue (I believe 3 children each). I don't know if Charles married. Una married Robert Paterson (she had a child before she married but no issue with Robert Paterson). Nellie married John Alexander Storey. They had children. I won't list all the children's names as will only confuse more.

MAJM I found a post card addressed to Miss M Aiken (Mollie daughter of Muriel Victoria) from Edie, simply stating Wishing you many Happy Birthdays From Edie. (dated 23rd June 07) This does interest me as it is odd that if Edie was a sister of Muriel Annie, then one would expect Edie to call herself AUNT EDIE as she would be a great aunt. Yes?
Title: Re: ? Muriel Annie(nee Smith)AIKEN,born Mary Ann SMITH, alias E M A M STANLEY
Post by: iforani on Sunday 15 July 12 13:17 BST (UK): ??? Blimey I'm confusing you all again! I just transcribed a postcard & said that was sent to Muriel Victoria's daughter but WRONG WRONG, am trying to correct before you pick up my error ( :-[ :-[). The post card dated 07 was of course sent to Muriel Victoria..born 1895 (so in 1907) would be 12. Confused myself as I know that Muriel Victoria's daughter was also born in June). This makes it even stranger as Edie is supposedly the aunt yet she calls herself Edie, not Aunt Edie.
Cheers
Deb
Title: Re: ? Muriel Annie(nee Smith)AIKEN,born Mary Ann SMITH, alias E M A M STANLEY
Post by: majm on Sunday 15 July 12 14:40 BST (UK): Hi

You are confusing me again.

Charles William SMITH on the 1903 roll ... why are you eliminating him please ... You have him alive until 1910

Why are you eliminating Louisa as a Miss Smith at Onslow St on 1913 roll .... and was she Without a middle name so you are eliminating Louisa from 1903 ...

and was Eliza nee Cooper not on the roll in 1903 either ?

On one of your threads you said these SMITHS lived Parramatta and then Granville ....

So you are confusing me

Cheers JM

Re the postcard for 1907 ... what was the address on the card for that Miss M AIKEN please .... as this may held sort out the relationship to Edie If Miss M was an adult it could be a sister or cousin to Edward I Aiken .... or his daughter from his first marriage

Quote from: iforani on Sunday 15 July 12 13:05 BST (UK)
:) :)
Thanks Mum mum, have replied to you offline. This thread is confusing. I have done the Smith family tree & I know where Muriel Annie fits into this if she is who she says she was (my query suggested that she may not have been a SMITH at all, but someone who was accepted into the family & who took on the identity of Mary Ann SMITH.0). She used an alias when she married & she may have used another alias for the rest of her life, the Smith alias. Maybe I will never know & will have to accept that she was Mary Ann SMITH. I will keep looking into it & will add to this thread when i have more info that is definite. You guys have taught me a lot about researching & i appreciate all the tips.

:) :)MAJM, the William SMITH engine driver is most likely Muriel's "fathër" William Smith who was an engine driver when he died. Ellen Mary SMITH is the only other one in your list that I can identify.

For the record, the Smith family is as follows..Mary A SMITH 1868- (Muriel Annie- 1942).
Charles William 1870-1910
Elsie Mary 1873-1875
Thomas H (probably Harvey, after uncle) 1875-1876
Albert Edward 1876-1878
Louisa (Louie) 1871-1931
Edith Maud (Edie) 1878-
Matilda Jane 1880-1881
Una May 1884-1950
Ellen Mary (Nellie) 1882- 1958
Ruby JV 1889- ?
Mary A, Charles, Louisa, Edith, Una, Ellen, Ruby are mentioned on Eliza's death cert as well as 2 females 2 male children. Mary A (Annie), Louisa, Edith, Una, Ellen, Ruby are mentioned on William's plus 3 males , 2 females. Charles had died in 1910. I recall reading somewhere that a William was born in 1867, so this is confusing. Neither Louie nor Edie married though they both had issue (I believe 3 children each). I don't know if Charles married. Una married Robert Paterson (she had a child before she married but no issue with Robert Paterson). Nellie married John Alexander Storey. They had children. I won't list all the children's names as will only confuse more.

MAJM I found a post card addressed to Miss M Aiken (Mollie daughter of Muriel Victoria) from Edie, simply stating Wishing you many Happy Birthdays From Edie. (dated 23rd June 07) This does interest me as it is odd that if Edie was a sister of Muriel Annie, then one would expect Edie to call herself AUNT EDIE as she would be a great aunt. Yes?
Title: Re: ? Muriel Annie(nee Smith)AIKEN,born Mary Ann SMITH, alias E M A M STANLEY
Post by: iforani on Monday 16 July 12 04:51 BST (UK): Hello MAJM
:)Thank you and sorry, yes I did miss these important points. I am a Gemini whose mind rushes ahead, who tends to speed read & extract the main points rather than sift through for the facts. My sister says that I "filter' information. I think she is right.

Thank you for the info on the engine driver. A valid point. I tend to put a story together which may or may not be the correct one..(engine driver/train driver due to his chronic lung problems & pneumonia...he may have been a heavy smoker!!!). Thank you. :D

Yes, this could be our Louisa, Louise Amelia; even though I've never heard of a middle name for her, most likely she did have one as the other sisters all had middle names. Yes, this is most likely Eliza & William (the parents). Yes, this is most likely the same Charles, living in Harris St, Parramatta, as labourer. Am not sure that the same Charles being a baker but you never know. How interesting. This would also i would think point to some connection with young Sidney who was also a baker. I see where you are coming from. This could even be his son. And one of the other women could be his wife...Kate, Maria?? These aren't names of the Smith sisters' children. I don't have any information on the marital status of William Charles, so don't know anything at all about him, except that he had died before the father. The pensioner Mary ann is an interesting one. ??? Wonder where she fits in. This is sort of what I wanted to look for...ie if there is any other Mary ann in this Smith family, still living at the same time that Muriel Annie was living. As I mentioned to another rootschatmember offline, I sort of thought that it was possible that my Muriel Annie could have had 2 aliases in her life, the first was the Stanley woman, the second was the Mary Ann Smith. Clearly if the second was the case, the Smith women obviously went along with it. eg I thought it possible that my Muriel Annie could have been married (even to Charles William) & wanted out of the marriage
when she fell in love with Edward. Edward & Muriel Annie's marriage was one full of love. Yesterday my mother read me one of Muriel's letters to him. Very gushy. Will send as 2 posts...as I wrote too much..
I wonder then who Alexander William Sampson was?
OK...now the address on the postcard is Osborne Villa, Lett St, Katoomba, which was the home of Edward & Muriel Annie Aiken; the addressee wasMiss M Aiken (Muriel Victoria) who would have been 12. Edie (name underlined) gives no address. But the postcard is stamped Parramatta, so she was living in Parramatta. I''ve also worked out where some of the SMITH sisters were living, based on where they gave birth to their children. I have for example a birth cert of a Marjorie Ileen in 1899. Mother was Louisa SMITH aged 26, born Parramatta, NSW. No father. Baby not present. 13th September 1899. Lifing in home. 100 Annandale St Municipality of Annandale. Witness 1) ...2) Mrs Gibson 3)... Partics of Reg..James William SMITH (AAAGH!!) 10th October 1899, Annandale. MAGM what is lifing? Living or birthing? I have no idea who Mrs Gibson is. I ordered this birth cert as there was no birth registration for my grandmother which is strange. I had the theory that she may have been the illegitimate daughter of one of the SMITH sisters (hence the sisterhood bonds). My Gran looks nothing like her sister Muriel Victoria. I have a photo of her. Muriel V.does look something like her parents. Supposedly the child Marjorie Ileen died. It is my theory that maybe the baby was taken in by Muriel & Edward. It would have been difficult for a single woman in those days & the SMITHS were a poor family to start with. (In 1895 for example Eliza Cooper had taken in HER sister Louisa McCann & children but she could only keep them for 2 weeks after which time they had to go to the Sydney Benevolent Asylum, then some other asylum where Susannah ended up dying in the same year). So things would have been tough. Maybe baby Marjorie did die? Who knows. The interesting thing is that Louisa was living just down the street from Edward & Muriel Annie Aiken. How convenient. This letter that I mentioned before mentions baby Edna (my grandmother) as doing well. Edna was born in Dec 1899 supposedly (no birth certificate for her) & Muriel Annie made the comment that (in january) she was coming along nicely...and that she (Muriel Annie) had never felt better in her llife, I thought an unusual comment for a woman who has 3 children at home, has just given birth a month earlier & has a husband living away fom home. I do think it strange that, given just how methodical Edwrad & M. Annie were in registering the births of their other children it is odd that my grandmother (Edna Iris)'s birth was never registered. This family does have secrets. My mother procured a birth extract for her mum when she took her to nz some years ago but when i asked her about this she couldnt remember the details.....will continue in next post...have exceeded my limit..

Cheers
Deb
Title: Re: ? Muriel Annie(nee Smith)AIKEN,born Mary Ann SMITH, alias E M A M STANLEY
Post by: iforani on Monday 16 July 12 04:55 BST (UK): Hello continuing on ;D
I have no doubt whatsoever that the Smiths are the daughters of William & Eliza & not connected via the father's family. Edith SMTH had 3 children. one of these was Eliza Stella (Lyla) who had 14 children! Most of these people are still alive. One of these women lived in Sydney & also knew the SMITHS as all aunts (including my Muriel Annie). Edith lived until 1966. One living granddaughter of Edith's has told me that the family 'has many secrets." One of the sisters apparently had an affair with a very well known politician..??? She knew about William & Eliza but not much about them. My mother is tight lipped about certain things & I know that she knows more than what she has told me. But bit by bit she passes on information, shares information when she is ready.
I think that's enough for anyone to digest for now.
Cheers
Deb
Title: Re: ? Muriel Annie(nee Smith)AIKEN,born Mary Ann SMITH, alias E M A M STANLEY
Post by: sparrett on Monday 16 July 12 05:40 BST (UK): Hi Deb,
What an amazing and fascinating story.

I would like to gently remind you that living persons may not be discussed on R'chat.

Your last post mentions some names of living people.

It would be correct and courteous if you would remove them now.

The moderators may heavily edit your post if you do not promptly do so yourself

Sue
Title: Re: ? Muriel Annie(nee Smith)AIKEN,born Mary Ann SMITH, alias E M A M STANLEY
Post by: majm on Monday 16 July 12 05:50 BST (UK): Yes, please go back and edit the names out :) fascinating story.

Sands 1892 Suburban
PARRAMATTA, Phillip St, South Side, Charles St intersection
SMITH, William Engineer

NSW BDM online index deaths
1907 SMITH, Eliza (parents given names recorded as Thomas & Mary) registered Parramatta # 2408
From that dc, where was she buried? (I suspect it would be Mays Hill Cemetery, see below)

TROVE
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/86155778 Cumberland Argus 16 Jan 1907
“Jan 9th, 1907, at her residence, Arthur Street Granville, (late of Phillip Street Parramatta) , Eliza, beloved wife of William Smith ….”
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/86162083 Cumberland Argus 12 Jan 1907
“Mrs Eliza Smith, of Arthur St, Clyde …… funeral took place on Friday, moving to the Presbyterian cemetery, Western Road (I suspect this would be Mays Hill Cemetery). “

Sands 1909 Suburban
GRANVILLE
(including Clyde & Guildford) Arthur St (Duck Creek to Prospect St) East Side : (consecutive numbering)
at no. 5, SMITH Charles
at no. 8, SMITH William P (notice the “P” I speculate that would be P for Peter.
May I note that although Onslow St (Sydney Rd to A’Beckett St) is listed in that directory NO householder in Onslow St is listed with surname SMITH

Sands 1910 Alpha
Charles W SMITH, Harris St PARRAMATTA
William P SMITH, 8 Arthur St GRANVILLE

NSW ER 1913 HARTLEY, polling at Katoomba
Donald AIKEN, Park St, plasterer
Edward Imlay AIKEN, Wilson St, engineer
Muriel Annie AIKEN, Wilson St, domestic duties
(I note that you have the AIKEN family in 1907 at Osborne Villa Lett St, however, Wilson and Lett Streets intersect)

There are many instances in the pre WWI decades where Mum has a large family, spread over perhaps 20 – 25 years, and where the eldest girls may be having their first babies while Mum is still adding to her own family. Sometimes the girls are single lasses. Sometimes (often) Mum raises the girls babies along with her own, and the girls are then able to find work locally, perhaps as live in domestics during the week, and return home occasionally for a half day visit. But usually the baby is registered showing her natural Mother as the Mum and Gran perhaps as one who assisted the midwife.

When I was sorting out my various NSW SMITH lines, I found it very important to obtain the NSW BDM records before trying to sort out the various bits of oral history about my SMITHs. That way I could then place the oral history to the correct immediate families. I think it is also important to make sure that you are ordering full NSW transcripts rather than partial ones, as quite often the very clue to unravel the SMITHs is found in the obscure information (eg relationship of informant to the subject). Of course, you will remember that the information on a birth certificate is NOT provided by the infant, and information on a death certificate is not provided by the deceased, so the information provided on a marriage certificate comes from the two subjects themselves.

There is still nothing illegal in using a name that is not the name on your birth certificate. Of course, in NSW you can still be known by various names without formally changing your name ….. of course, providing you are not doing so in a criminal sense to avoid punishment. It is simply a little more difficult today to do so, as you usually need to provide identification documents to open a bank account or enter into a commercial contact etc.

Cheers, JM
Title: Re: ? Muriel Annie(nee Smith)AIKEN,born Mary Ann SMITH, alias E M A M STANLEY
Post by: majm on Monday 16 July 12 05:59 BST (UK): Quote from: iforani on Monday 16 July 12 04:51 BST (UK)
Marjorie Ileen in 1899. Mother was Louisa SMITH aged 26, born Parramatta, NSW. No father. Baby not present. 13th September 1899. Lifing in home. 100 Annandale St Municipality of Annandale. Witness 1) ...2) Mrs Gibson 3)... Partics of Reg..James William SMITH (AAAGH!!) 10th October 1899, Annandale. MAGM what is lifing? Living or birthing? I have no idea who Mrs Gibson is. I ordered this birth cert as there was no birth registration for my grandmother which is strange. I had the theory that she may have been the illegitimate daughter of one of the SMITH sisters (hence the sisterhood bonds).

from that bc (I am assuming it is the 'real deal' cert and not an official transcription), where it has James William SMITH as the informant, what does it say about his relationship to the baby whose birth is being registered. I am expecting father/brother/uncle/ etc ) ADDING, sorted :) he was the district registrar for BDMs see next post :)

And, once you have mastered "snipping" would you please show us all a small section of the bc where the words 'lifing in home' are used. Please do not upload the entire scanned document.

Cheers, JM
Title: Re: ? Muriel Annie(nee Smith)AIKEN,born Mary Ann SMITH, alias E M A M STANLEY
Post by: majm on Monday 16 July 12 06:26 BST (UK): Sands 1900 Suburban Directory
100 Annandale St, Mrs Louisa GIBSON, nurses’ home.
50 Trafalgar St, James W SMITH, registrar of births, deaths and marriages.

Cheers, JM
PS I think you will find that Mrs Gibson’s nurses’ home could have also been a “lying in home” for lasses during their accouchement
Title: Re: ? Muriel Annie(nee Smith)AIKEN,born Mary Ann SMITH, alias E M A M STANLEY
Post by: iforani on Monday 16 July 12 07:53 BST (UK): :) :) :D :) :) :-*
Firstly thank you Sue. Uh oh! :-[ I have made the changes. Thank you for that!
Wow MAJM. I am impressed. So much information! You are supercharged. Have managed to use the snipping tool. THANKS for that! Great tool. Has taken me this long to learn something new.
Thank you :). The article re the death of Eliza SMITH & receiving communion at the Baptist Church is a new one that I haven't read. Ta. Adds more depth to this person.
:)Re William Smith being an engineer, this is possible. There was however another William Smith, engineer, living of all places in Granville (Phillip St also I think) whom I thought (about 2 years ago) may have been our William, but that one died in about 1924 (deleted my records but he was a member of Lodge etc..huge article on him..different man..think he was married to an Elizabeth with different children). Will have to check where corner of Phillip & Charles streets is to see if matches with number 8 Phillip St (would verify if same man). ta.
The Charles SMITH (Harris St) one would be ours I think.
Great :) to find another reference to William Peter, wonder why he used this name? Living in Arthur St in 1910, but back in Onslow St in 1912...as this is where he died.
Can you let me know if the snip thing worked. YOU ARE RIGHT..it does say lying...but this didn't seem to make sense to me so guess my mind dismissed it. That is very interesting information about the nurse's home & how women could stay there. This is what makes me love this research so much to learn things such as this. Thanks MAJM. :) Certainly explains the Mrs Gibson.
???Am not sure who Donald Aiken is but there were quite a few Aikens living in Sydney, coincidence though that was in Katoomba. maybe he is a grandson of Edward's that my cousin missed in his research (oh I'd better delete his name too).
So it states that Edwards was an engineer. My mother will be happy with this info as she told me that once before but i hadn't found any references to him as such. he was a dairy manager, had a dairy at one stage during first marriage also during first marriage as you would have read he had a boarding house, he was on various boards, was a life insurance agent, sold refrigeration units, etc etc, a man of many talents. He was a well educated man. His post cards are very flowery. Thanks for that info too on Wilson St, Lett St. This confused me too. I've seen both addresses on the post cards. I've also seen an ad that was posted by him for the Katoomba house for rental (while the family was living at Dunedoo); the address that he gave was at a house opposite. He travelled between Katoomba & Dunedoo & all around NSW & beyond.
:) :) :) :) Thanks so much MAJM for all of this very interesting info, also the info re mothers taking on children as their own. This is why I was wondering about my grandmother. She looks more like Edith than her grandmother (but she looks mostly like her father's family).
Cheers
Deb
Title: Re: ? Muriel Annie(nee Smith)AIKEN,born Mary Ann SMITH, alias E M A M STANLEY
Post by: iforani on Monday 16 July 12 07:55 BST (UK): It worked Yay!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Attaching Edith Maud SMITH aged about 69.
Attaching photo of my Mum for interest only. Taken when she was about 17. She has large eyes like Edith.
Attaching photo of my Gran (Muriel Annie's daughter) in her 80's.
Attaching photo of Muriel Annie aged 59.
Title: Re: ? Muriel Annie(nee Smith)AIKEN,born Mary Ann SMITH, alias E M A M STANLEY
Post by: majm on Monday 16 July 12 08:05 BST (UK): Well of course the snip tool works ! ;D

Cheers, JM

PS, persons named on the 1913 NSW electoral rolls needed to be at least 21 years of age in 1913, so none of them would be still alive.
Title: Re: ? Muriel Annie(nee Smith)AIKEN,born Mary Ann SMITH, alias E M A M STANLEY
Post by: majm on Monday 16 July 12 08:50 BST (UK): Hi there,

Instead of spending big pennies on ‘real deal’ certificates, there’s the other option that NSW BDM mentions on their own website. And of course, that other option is also mentioned here at RChat. The Official Transcriptions are cheaper and can be sent as email attachments.
http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/familyHistory/howToTraceYouFamTree.htm#TranscriptionAgent
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,300394.0.html

If this were my SMITH family, I would give serious thoughts to obtaining transcript copies of two NSW BDMs to sort out the William P v William Charles v William chaps: (Both these are birth registrations, both registered Parramatta)
1870 Charles William SMITH, son of William Charles and Eliza #15123
1889 Ruby J V SMITH, dau of William P and Eliza #18678 (Perhaps this one first, depending on your budget of course, but this should give you age and gender of older living siblings and clues for any that had not survived. Also, hopefully it will explain the "P" within the details for the informant registering the birth BUT most importantly, the place of birth, and the occupation of the parents and details of when and where married should help confirm or eliminate this lass as being your Ruby.

Cheers, JM
Title: Re: ? Muriel Annie(nee Smith)AIKEN,born Mary Ann SMITH, alias E M A M STANLEY
Post by: c more on Monday 16 July 12 09:27 BST (UK): Hi
I think there is a family likeness between Muriel and Edith.
The flat broad area between the eyes, the nose, the lips, long neck.
Edith who looks in her old age in the photo looks as if she would have been an attractive younger woman.
As you said earlier you would have to find Mary Ann SMITH existing at the same time as Muriel to prove that
they are 2 different people.
That fact that you say that Muriel's birthday was the date given on Mary Anne's birth certificate
is more of an indication that they are the same person.
The problem is when people say that there are secrets in the family and then don't tell
you what the secrets are you begin to suspect all kinds of things. (Be there done that.)
Cheers Leonie
Title: Re: ? Muriel Annie(nee Smith)AIKEN,born Mary Ann SMITH, alias E M A M STANLEY
Post by: iforani on Monday 16 July 12 11:07 BST (UK): :) Thanks girls for your comments.
JM, I will order those certificates. I have used one of the transcript agents from BDM. Cost of last order (Thomas Cooper marriage) was only $10 for a full transcript. I thought that this was good.
Have just amended the post with photo of Edith to show photo of my Mum when she was younger. She is more like her father (almost dead ringer of an aunt on the Aldred side) but has the eyes I think of Edith. Edith apparently was a lovely lady. You can see the gentleness in her eyes.
I appreciate your comments too Leonie. Yes, Edith would have been attractive. Now that you say that, I can see that the nose is similar. I'll post a photo of Muriel Annie when she was about 58, if 1868 was her correct date of birth. She's put on weight but you can compare to the photo of Edith to that (will add in that other post). Edith was about 69 in that photo. I think that you may be right. There probably are some likenesses between Muriel Annie & Edith. Edith's grandchildren were stunning. One looked like Jacqui Onassis. I think that J Onassis' family (Bouviers) came from Kent so may be why, eh?
Will keep in touch with this line when I get more answers from family/certificates.
Thanks girls,
Deb
Title: Re: ? Muriel Annie(nee Smith)AIKEN,born Mary Ann SMITH, alias E M A M STANLEY
Post by: iforani on Monday 16 July 12 11:39 BST (UK): :)
Attaching photo of Mum, Muriel Annie's granddaughter
Title: Re: ? Muriel Annie(nee Smith)AIKEN,born Mary Ann SMITH, alias E M A M STANLEY
Post by: iforani on Wednesday 18 July 12 00:37 BST (UK): :) Hi again
Am still waiting for 4 certifcate transcripts...death Charles W Smith in 1910, birth Ruby JV Smith, 1889, baptism William SMITH 1850, death Louisa Dutlinger Power death 1934. Hopefully these may shed some more light on this one.
The reason I have ordered the cert of Louisa Dutlinger Power is as follows. Edward Muriel Aiken named one of their children , Louis Dutlinger AIKEN (Born in Petersham, NSW 1902). NSW BDM 25395/1902 . There is no family connection to the interesting name. I have googled the name Dutlinger & have come up with the following references..
:)A Louisa Dutlinger Power died in 1934 (Randwick cemetery records); she was 60 when she died.. Sydney Morning Herald notice...buried Roman Catholic Cemetery Randwick...was the wife of Mr JJ Power MLA 1901-1904. Mrs Power who was 60 years of age was noted for hercharitable work over many years. She assisted Mrs Earle Page to establish at Strathfield about 13 years ago, a branch of the CWA. She was also on various committees for raising funds for St Vincents Hospital & the Catholic Home for Babies, Waitara. She is survived by her husband & 2 married daughters.

Also in the Essendon Gazette & Kellor, Bulla & Broadwater's Reporter (TROVE) a "Louisa Dutlinger POWER, of 315 George St Sydney, married woman"was reported as owning land ..registered owner..Lot 33 etc etc at Sydenham. 16th May 1918.

A FURTHER COINCIDENCE is that Edward Imlay Aiken in 1879 lived at 316 GEORGE st Sydney, different time but this residence would be close to the residence of Louisa Dutlinger Power BORN circa 1874? Edward posted an ad for a missing red shawl ON 11TH June 1879 SYDNEY MORNING HERALD) (E Imlay Aiken Please return red shawl taken from Oddfellows Hall, Monday evening. Please leave 111 King Street).

There is a marriage of Louisa D FRASER to John POWER in 1894. Parents were George & Elizabeth.

How can I check whether there was a property owned by Frasers in George St Sydney IN 1879 (when Edward was at number 316)???

There are other references to a Frederick Dutlinger (who was admitted to an asylum in Victoria in 1864 (Portland Guardian & Normanby General Advertiser)...25.07.1864...various articles both on this date & after relating to a sum of money deposited by Frederick Dutlinger with superintendent when he enetered the asylum but not recorded, not in the audit...I won't print here...too much)...ALSO ads posted in the Sydney Morning Herald...eg 7.05.1868 Frederick Dutlinger Brother & sister wish to hear from you. Address R.A. Oamaru, Otago, New Zealand. ...He was probably still in the asylum??? getting off track ...most likely connection with Aikens is the Louisa Dutlinger (nee Fraser?) POWER. I will post another thread on this as someone may know something about the POWERS, which will shed some light as to why the AIKENS chose to name a child with such a name. Maybe they just liked it but??
Title: Re: ? Muriel Annie(nee Smith)AIKEN,born Mary Ann SMITH, alias E M A M STANLEY
Post by: mum mum on Wednesday 18 July 12 08:37 BST (UK): Hi
Over the time that you have been researching you family has anyone got the death certificate for Emma Stanley, nee Fieldhouse who appears to have died in 1918? How many children does it list?
Do you also have her husband's death certificate?
What about William Smith and his wife, Muriel Annie's 'real' parents, what do their death certificates say?

mum mum
Title: Re: ? Muriel Annie(nee Smith)AIKEN,born Mary Ann SMITH, alias E M A M STANLEY
Post by: majm on Wednesday 18 July 12 09:28 BST (UK): Hi mum mum,

Somewhere in among these threads I recall reading the details for the dcs for William SMITH and for Eliza SMITH. I don't recall which thread, sorry. I am fairly sure that I have not read any information about Emma STANLEY nee FIELDHOUSE's dc, but agree that would be a significant document in the quest to establish if Muriel Annie was actually born Mary Ann SMITH to William and Eliza.

OOps, galloping fingers here,
Adding
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,492262.0.html
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,547501.0.html
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,605993.0.html
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,606139.0.html
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,606534.0.html

Cheers, JM
Title: Re: ? Muriel Annie(nee Smith)AIKEN,born Mary Ann SMITH, alias E M A M STANLEY
Post by: iforani on Wednesday 18 July 12 11:16 BST (UK): ??? I thought you were busy JM??
Thank you both (Mum mum & JM) for your suggestion of buying the death cert's of the alias parents, Charles Cooper & Emma nee Fieldhouse. NO I don't have these & they may (or may not) reveal an extra child born to one or both parents. I DO have the birth cert of Elizabeth Mary STANLEY (think I attached this in one of the threads, I also forget which)..but in the space where you write in the children that you have already...it is indecipherable...my sister said she magnified it & it said "None". ?? (I had asked her to see if it said Rosa as this is the name of a girl born to an Emma Stanley, born in 1870 a year later than Mary Ann SMITH). The woman born as Elizabeth Mary STANLEY is most definitely NOT the woman who lived her life as Muriel Annie. I had thought it possible (previously) that Muriel Annie could have been one of the older sisters. Will check back on this family to see who belonged here (how many children they had).

:)I do have the marriage cert of William & Eliza (nee Cooper) SMITH. I do have the death cert's of both Eliza & William. The girl born as Mary Ann SMITH is called (in Eliza's certificate, 1907) Mary A (aged 39)..informant was her brother, Charles W SMITH/ (in William's cert 1912) she is called Annie (aged 44) (informant is sister Edith SMITH). As I've mentioned before, Muriel Annie celebrated the same birthday as Mary Ann SMITH.

I added some photos in a previous post ...did you see them?

Thanks for adding those threads, MAJM. Two of those were from LAST year. I see that Dundee advised me to write a letter by post to send to the Church (which I didn't do) a good idea.

Thanks girls. :)
Title: Re: ? Muriel Annie(nee Smith)AIKEN,born Mary Ann SMITH, alias E M A M STANLEY
Post by: majm on Wednesday 18 July 12 11:25 BST (UK): Yes, I am busy with real world matters, but .... I am a female so I can multi task and allow grey cells to work on your jigsaw. I thought about Louisa DUTLINGER, and posted some info on that thread :) http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,607124.0.html

Don't forget to write that snail mail letter to the C of E Diocese at Armidale NSW. The United Church of England and Ireland was a former name for the Anglicans. They may be able to help with the elusive blanks on the mc for William SMITH and Eliza COOPER, likely parents of Mary Ann SMITH, who you suspect was Muriel Annie AIKEN. :)

Cheers, JM
Title: Re: ? Muriel Annie(nee Smith)AIKEN,born Mary Ann SMITH, alias E M A M STANLEY
Post by: iforani on Monday 23 July 12 01:03 BST (UK): :) Hello again

:) I posted a , photo of Muriel Annie's niece (her sister, Edith or Edie's daughter, Mabel) in the photo section. My mother just sent me this photo. She knew it was her mother's cousin, but when I suggested that it was Edith's daughter (which I had discovered a most likely..from BDM records) she said most definitely not. However I contacted Mum's second cousin in Sydney who confirmed that yes, Mabel was Edith's daughter who died in 1918 (also in BDM...Granville), from pneumonia. Apparently this lady has never seen this photo (so will forward to her family to keep)...but said that there was a large photo of Mabel on her Nana's (Edith's) wall. In this photo there is a rising sun badge (which rootschat members gave me heaps of info about) on Mabel's jumper. Mum's cousin said that yes, she had seen a rising sun badge in her Nana's box but never knew the significance of his, as whenever anyone asked about this Edith became evasive and sad. No wonder if it belonged to her daughter who died at age 20.

I believe that Mabel bears a striking resemblance to her mother, Edith (photo of Edith already included in this thread). She was lovely.

There are some similarities to Muriel Annie, the beautiful wide set large eyes, similar nose. Mabel is a smaller woman, as was Edith, slimmer and smaller, smaller finer bones. Muriel had more arching eyebrows and a bigger face, wider jaws, bigger chin. Does anyone think that Edith and Muriel Annie may have shared one parent, ie that they could have been half sisters, even though the SMITHS were married?

The likeness of my mother and her mother to Edith in their older age points to a definite family connection to the SMITHS. I am still not convinced though that my grandmother (Edna Iris) was Muriel Annie's daughter, given that she had no birth certificate (no birth registered in her name)...but this is a different story..another thread which I won't start. In my opinion there is also a resemblance of Mabel to one of my nieces.

The attached photo has been kindly restored by a Rootschat member.

Cheers, Deb
Title: Re: ? Muriel Annie(nee Smith)AIKEN,born Mary Ann SMITH, alias E M A M STANLEY
Post by: iforani on Monday 23 July 12 02:32 BST (UK): :) For interest only letter written below, Muriel Annie to Edward (Teddie)
Will try to post actual letter but may be to large even after snipped.??

Corunna Road
PETERSHAM 7/2/900 (OR 7/1/900)
My dear Teddie
I received your loving letter today and I was very pleased to hear that you appreciated my letter so much. You say that you are always thinking of me. Well, I think we are both of the same mind love. But you know, the old adage that absent makes the heart grow fonder. But! do not think anything would make me love you better and I feel sure that the same feeling comes from your your dear old self. I feel very sorry that you will not be home on Sunday. But a few days will not be long to wait. You asked me to let you know when mr mac was back. he was at the office on Monday. I must thank you very much for the oysters. Edie will go down in the morning for them. But I wish that you were here (spelt hear) to help me eat them. I am so glad to hear (spelt here) that you are keeping so well. I myself have never felt better in my life & everyone tells me I look well & dear little Edna is getting on well & poor old Mur is as fat as ever (THIS IS THEIR OLDEST DAUGHTE, MURIEL). She told me to tell you that her money box is almost full. I have not seen ? the papers or who was reelected as directors to the Berrima. I hope that you will be successful with your meetings. Look here (corrceted by her) old boy, you tell me that you had to pay four pence for my letter. Well I hav ehad to pay ? times that one shilling, so I will make one sheet of paper do you. Love I all this time hoping you think I hav etold you will be home on the 13th. With fondest love from Mur. Edna and your loving old wife, Mur

Reading this again, it does appear that she is convalescing after having a baby with people commenting how well she looks.
Title: Re: ? Muriel Annie(nee Smith)AIKEN,born Mary Ann SMITH, alias E M A M STANLEY
Post by: iforani on Monday 23 July 12 02:40 BST (UK): :) Attaching page 2 of same letter...also note that handwriting is same as marriage certificate signature (Elizabeth Mary Annie Muriel Stanley one).
Title: Re: ? Muriel Annie(nee Smith)AIKEN,born Mary Ann SMITH, alias E M A M STANLEY
Post by: iforani on Wednesday 25 July 12 13:17 BST (UK): :) Am including here the death certificate of Charles William SMITH, 1910. This confirms that Muriel's brother, Charles was living at Harris St as MAJM suggested, also Ada, his wife and children.
Title: Re: ? Muriel Annie(nee Smith)AIKEN,born Mary Ann SMITH, alias E M A M STANLEY
Post by: iforani on Wednesday 25 July 12 13:23 BST (UK): :) Attaching birth certificate of Ruby Irene Victoria SMITH, sister of Muriel Annie SMITH.
Title: Re: ? Muriel Annie(nee Smith)AIKEN,born Mary Ann SMITH, alias E M A M STANLEY
Post by: iforani on Wednesday 17 October 18 06:28 BST (UK): Posting these for benefit of Rhonda who sent me a personal message on this topic.
Title: Re: ? Muriel Annie(nee Smith)AIKEN,born Mary Ann SMITH, alias E M A M STANLEY
Post by: iforani on Wednesday 17 October 18 06:49 BST (UK): for Rhonda

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