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Some Special Interests => Occupation Interests => Topic started by: ladyhall on Tuesday 10 July 12 22:09 BST (UK)
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Hello
I am trying to find out more about my Great Grandfather and or ihs Father both named Alfred James Smith.
Unfortunately the information I have is very limited as my grandfather (Geoffrey William Smith) died when I was young and his father died when he was only 7 or 8 so there is little to go on except a few pictures, a wife and a rumour or two!
The little facts I do know are that Alfred James Smith was born about 1860 and rumours have it he was born on a ship either in Sydney or more likely Adelaide however this could just be a rumour! We do know that later in life he worked in the Merchant Navy although I am unsure as to his rank. I do know he worked on the Miltiades and I have attached a photograph which shows his uniform in full - can someone decipher for me? Does anyone know what position he took? He is back row in the centre (sitting on the steps). Could you date this photo too? His father Alfred James Smith is sited as being a Lieutenant in the Merchant Navy on his sons marriage bans but as his father was deceased at the time could this be the occupation of the younger Alfred James?
Alfred James Smith was married to my great grandmother who was called Phyllis Gertrude Trayler - she was much younger b.1893.
I am desperate to find some information on him but with his name being smith and not really knowing how to start with Merchant Navy Records which seem to be fairly limited in content i'm here and asking for help please!
I'll keep my fingers crossed!
thank you in advance
Alex
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Duplicate post
See http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,606082.0/topicseen.html
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Marriage 20.4.1918 between Alfred James Smith & Phyllis Gertrude Trayler at St Mary Paddington Green
Alfred 58 bachelor occ clerk father also Alfred James Smith (deceased) Lieutenant RN
Gertrude 22 or 24 - father William occ master baker
Witnesses William ?? Thurgate & Elizabeth Allen
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The free 1911 index has an Alfred James Smith aged 50 living in Suffolk
The 1911 index on GRU shows birthplace as Adelaide
Have you already discounted that entry
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Hi,
Thanks. I've seen the first marriage banns and that is definitely him and her.
As for the 1911 census I do have a copy of this yes however i'm not sure it's him? I know he was working at the Army & Navy Stores as a clerk in 1919 and tried to get the employment records from Glasgow for the store but the records for that year were lost in a fire - can you believe it!
Alex
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A possible 1881 entry but shown as married (no family with him) occ warehouseman
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/X3LR-4CC
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And 1891
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/QWH9-66Z
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Alfred James Smith II
The uniforms in the photograph are defiantly Merchant Navy, or more correctly Mercantile Marine. It is not clear but I think his sleeve insignia would indicate a Wireless officer. Others with better eyes may be able to advise you.
There were several ships named MILTIADES and some of them made voyages to Australia.
An educated guess is the MILTIADES official number 118179, 6,793 tons built in 1903 and owned by G W Thompson(Aberdeen Line)
She has several Crew Agreements From 1903 until she had a change of name in 1921. Most of these are stored in Newfoundland and are not available to view online.
http://www.mun.ca/mha/holdings/viewcombinedcrews.php?Official_No=118179
The others for the remaining years are in the British National Archive and for years end in "5" National Maritime Museum, Greenwich. Likewise these cannot be viewed online. Ships crew agreements are indexed via Official Number. Searching the crew agreements should give you a lot of information about him, Age, NOK, last address etc and importantly his Certificate number or discharge number.
Lieutenant, was not a Mercantile Marine rank. It was a Royal Navy rank. It could be he served in the RNVR or RNR.
I found this one in the RNVR records
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/details-result.asp?Edoc_Id=8038248&queryType=1&resultcount=19
It may pay you to download it.
For details of MILTIADES just type Miltiades Aberdeen into Google but beware of other ships bearing the same name.
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Hello Seaweed and Carole,
Thank you so much for your delving.
The Alfred James Smiths in my family are very confusing indeed and i'm not sure which did what and when! The fact I have no death date's or birth dates really doesn't help. I know vaguely that my Grandfathers father would have died around 1923 give or take a few years as thats when he told everyone he had died and my great grandmother phyilis brought up 4 boys on her own! Her husband Alfred was much older than her also.
My grandfathers marriage certificate does in fact say that Alfred Smith (jr) was a Ships Purser.. does this mean he was the one in the Royal Navy? Did they have those on the Merchant Navy Ships too? It also says on Alfred James and Gertrude's Wedding certificate that Alfred J Smith (Sr) was a Lieutenant in the Royal Navy.
So the big question is, is the photo of AJS Senior or AJS junior?
Thank you seaweed for all your observations and your delving - I have had a look at the links but am a bit worried I could be paying to look at the wrong Alfred at this stage.
Would you know where I could get the photograph deciphered?
Was the NA archive record you found the only AJSmith?
Sorry to ask so many questions! I"m just so confused and a bit of a newbie at all this!
Alex
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So the big question is, is the photo of AJS Senior or AJS junior?
ErrorSPAM
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][/color] Like I said an educated guess would be AJS junior
Was the NA archive record you found the only AJSmith?- I have had a look at the links but am a bit worried I could be paying to look at the wrong Alfred at this stage.
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][/color] It was the only one for Alfred James Smith. Of course it may not be him but there is only one way to find out. The only certain way to find out if it is him is to look at the crew agreements for MILTIADES. Problem is which one.
Would you know where I could get the photograph deciphered?
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]You could send it to the NMM Greenwich for their opinion as to his rank and the timeline of the photograph. Wether they would class this as paid research. I don't know.[/color]
Purser would generally be a Merchant Navy rank. However in past centuries, RN Supply Officers had been known as the Clerk, Bursar, Purser and, later, the Paymaster. Logistics officers are still generally referred in Royal Naval slang as "pusser", a derivation of purser. Hence Pussers Rum.
His MN sleeve insignia may have been for Chief Steward a rank closely akin to Purser.
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Hi All,
I posted the NA record for AJSmith as I did actually have this and this is the decipher I got.
Hi
The ship is HMS Tarlair. It is shown as the frontispiece in a book "Hush or the Hydrophone Service" by H W Wilson. You can find this on line by googling the book title.
All the best
Gobbo
Posted by: philipsearching Posted on: Yesterday at 20:47:10
Insert Quote
Quote from: rutht22000 on Yesterday at 19:56:36
"3 January 1919 9 October 1919 informed the (something ) which appeared in the papers usually about officers (something - can't work it out what it says) to all RVNR officers who received a gratuity on demobilisation"
My reading is:
"9 October 1919 informed the notice which appeared in the papers (??) about officers retaining their rank refers to all RVNR officers who received a gratuity on demobilisation"
Posted by: rutht22000 Posted on: Yesterday at 19:56:36
Insert Quote
left hand side is
"temporary sub lieutenant 25 August 1917" and underneath it is "temporary lieutenant 23 (or 25) August 1918"
the going across "(something- name of the ship maybe?) for hydrophone service = 23 (or 25) August reappointed on promotion"
"20 January 1919 demobilised 26 January 1919 granted 12 days leave"
"3 January 1919 9 October 1919 informed the (something ) which appeared in the papers usually about officers (something - can't work it out what it says) to all RVNR officers who received a gratuity on demobilisation"
"Kinvarre Turriff Aberdeenshire 10.17 Father James Smith"
I was wondering if you could help Seaweed with further deciphering? Would this give me more clues where to look?
Thanks so much,
Alex
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Yes. I did read your other post. The post by Gobbo is somewhat misleading. HMS TARLAIR was in fact a shorebase in Hawkscraig, Aberdour, Fife. If you read the book this will confirm it. The picture is of a hired Drifter which was the designated base ship.
To an extent this is immaterial to your search and I have doubts that this is the man you seek. If I read the document correctly it give his fathers name as James, not Alfred James and an address in Aberdeenshire which seems contrary to the rest of the known family history.
Again I stress the only way to confirm your man is to search the crew agreements of MILTIADES.
If I have time, I will endeavour to look at the relevent available documents next time I visit Kew. If he is not mentioned there then its your call.