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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Dublin => Topic started by: nannyj on Tuesday 10 July 12 19:48 BST (UK)
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HI. I am trying to find the date of death of my great grandmother: Bridget Cullen b.1883 lived in Barnacullia.
She was alive in 1911 and married to Mathew Cullen in 1905/6. Her maiden name was also Cullen.
She died quite young, I suspect in childbirth?
It would be good to find her parents too.
Thanks.
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To search back for Bridget's birth and her parents I'd start with the marriage - based on the 1911 census return (http://census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Dublin/Glencullen/Barnacullia/94878/) all the family were born Co. Dublin, so if married in the same area then Rathdown would be the registration district to check for...
This entry on the BMD Index looks a good possibility :
Name: Matthew Cullen
Registration district: Rathdown
Event type: Marriage
Quarter and year: Apr-Jun 1906
Volume: 2 / Page: 809
Shane
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there's a cross-match to a Bridget Cullen for that entry - i.e. same district, year/quarter, page and volume. So both names appear on the same page of the marriage register, and could therefore be your Mathew and Bridget...
see : https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FYDM-V47
see : Ordering Certs from GRO Roscommon (http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,599538.0.html)
Details included on a Marriage Cert (http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,433042.0.html)
Shane
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Thanks!
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I couldn't open the first link, but the second was ok. I will get on and order the marriage certificate. Do you happen to know if I would get the same information if I bought credits from rootsireland.ie, as it might be cheaper and quicker that way?
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Most of the details on RootsIreland are parish records, you usually get more detail on certs - i.e. civil records. Research certs cost €4 - so only about the same as a transcript of a parish record. Most of the records on RootsIreland only go as far as about 1900 ... so probably would not have this record ...
There are two Cullen households in Barnacullia in 1901 - no sign of Bridget, but a good possibility for Matthews family : Cullen household (http://census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Dublin/Glencullen/Barnacullia/1316398/)
If the family stayed in the same area, and Bridget died quite young then there's this possible match for her death :
Name: Bridget Cullen
Registration district: Rathdown
Event type: Death
Quarter and year: Jan-Mar 1914
Age: 29 (est. year of birth 1885)
Volume: 2 / Page: 727
Shane
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Yes that's the Mathew Cullen. I have got back to his parents by looking at the Irish Genealogy site (complete with Latin names!) and found several of his relatives. I did find a record for a baptism of a Brdget Cullen, but the parents seem to be Mathew's uncle and his wife, Elisabeth Roe (who lived in Dublin City for a while but also in Barnacullia) ... I don't think first cousins can marry under Irish and Catholic Church law, so am assuming I had found the wrong one?
It says that the payment for the GROI certificates has to be in Euros and I live in England. How do I do that please?
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It says that the payment for the GROI certificates has to be in Euros and I live in England. How do I do that please?
payment for orders to GRO Roscommon is usually done by credit card. I think they may accept some debit cards also..
Shane
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Thanks very much. Only joined this site this week and already had lots of help and advice. It's great. Thanks again for your help :)
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Hi there
I think this is a good possibility for Bridget in 1901 in Dundrum, which is just beside Barnaculia
possible bridget cullen 1901 census (http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Dublin/Dundrum/Dundrum/1316053/)
Tara
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Thank you :)
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I wouldn't say Dundrum is beside Barnaculliina - about 4km... :)
but a good match.
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Hi again,
I can't see the marriage for Matthew and Sarah on irishgenealogy
But this is their marriage on familysearch
Name: Seragh Rothery
1871
District: Rathdown
Volume: 7
Page: 888
Match to Mathew Cullen
Tara
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Transcipts for Dundrum parish are available on RootsIreland - so when you find the name of Bridget's father it might be worth checking these for her baptism....
Shane
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Hi. I'm trying to find out my great grandmother's family. She was Bridget b.1882-7, married to Mathew in 1905-6. I have found her on the 1911 census with three children: Sarah, Elizabeth and Mary. I know she had at least one other daughter, Ann and that she died in childbirth. All of the children were sent to an orphanage bar my grandmother. I have info on Mathew's side but would like to find out more about Bridget. Any suggestions? I don't have any other information apart from this. I am told that her maiden name may have been Cullen as well.
Thanks.
Moderator Note : Merged with existing topic to avoid duplicated research.
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Baptism for Mattheas Cullen Barnaculla in 1875 Sandyford Parish Church
Parents Matthas Cullen - Sarah Rothery. Sponsors Patrituis Rothery & Maria Doyle :)
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Thanks very much. I have those ones. It's his wife, Bridget, that I can't get anywhere with.
Thanks anyway :-)
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see previous topic : Bridget Cullen b.1883 lived in Barnacullia (http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,606061.0.html)
Topics Merged
p.s. I think that baptism was in Sandyford rather than Sandford.
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Marriage for Matthew Cullen & Bridget Cullen June 1906. Reg District Rathdown. Vol 2 Page 809 :)
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Thanks very much. I have those ones. It's his wife, Bridget, that I can't get anywhere with.
Thanks anyway :-)
likely marriage for Bridget and Mathew was already suggested in the older thread - did you try ordering a cert for this ?
A cert would show her father's name and occupation, which you need to work back further.
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Hi. Yes I have tried but the online application asks for the church name and address, which I don't know and also only went back to 1920. I used the Health Exec site. Is that the right one? Thanks.
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use the option to order research certs by post from the GRO (not the HSE) - cheaper and much simpler. All you need for the order are the references mentioned in those earlier replies.
see : Ordering Certs from GRO Roscommon (http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,599538.0.html)
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sorry - posted the wrong link above - now corrected
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Thanks! Will get onto that now :-)
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re Bridget... there doesn't seem to be any Bridget Cullen births registered around the right dates in Rathdown district (which includes Barnacullia, Sandyford, Dundrum etc), but there are quite a number in the district to the west of this - i.e. South Dublin. This covered areas in south west Co. Dublin like Rathfarnham, Saggart, Tallaght, Rathcoole, Palmerstown etc as well as all of the south city and suburbs.
see : Bridget Cullen births, 1882-1886 (https://www.familysearch.org/search/records/index#count=20&query=%2Bgivenname%3Abridget~%20%2Bsurname%3Acullen~%20%2Bbirth_place%3A%22Dublin%20South%22~%20%2Bbirth_year%3A1882-1886~&collection_id=1408347)
Shane
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there is a possibility in Rathdown district on the BMD Index a little earlier than Bridget's age on the census returns would suggest. Worth keeping a note of... but I'd definitely check the marriage details first..
Name: Bridget Mary Cullen
Registration district: Rathdown
Event type: Birth
Quarter and year: Jan-Mar 1880
Volume: 2 / Page : 986
Based on the RootsIreland Index it looks like the corresponding baptism took place in Kingstown / Dún Laoghaire parish
S.
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My husband is from Stepaside, and Im researching the hardings from Barnacullia
I'll ask him if he knows anything about the cullens.
I know that he used to know a Sean and bella Cullen - dont know if they are related.
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Thanks Maggiegorey. I wouldn't know if they are related, I'm afraid, as I know very little about the cullens. Have sent off for the wedding certificate and maybe will know a bit more then. Will add to this when I find out more.
Does anyone know which orphanages the children were likely to have been sent to? The girls would have been under ten years old I would imagine. Mum thinks there might have been a boy too. He would only have been a toddler. I found the Birds Nest home, although the Cullens were catholic, so maybe not? I did read that some Catholics went there though.
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Hi
There was an Orphanage on Tivoli Road, and another one called The Cottage Home on the same road.
The Orphanage as it was universally known was actually St Josephs Orphanage, a Catholic orphanage/cum/school.
the Cottage Home for Little Children I think was COI.
I asked my husband about the Cullens, and he says they were the only cullens he ever knew in that area, so its more than likely they were related.
If you go on to Irish Genealogy.ie and click on "search by location", then click on Sandyford, that should give you any Cullens in that area, as Sandyford was the RC church for that area.
The others were Kilternan (COI) and Glencullen (RC) but I think there was also a COI church in that area.
If I can find any other info I'll let you know.
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Thanks :-)
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.......Sandyford was the RC church for that area.
The others were Kilternan (COI) and Glencullen (RC) but I think there was also a COI church in that area.
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Glencullen and Kiltiernan (the blue church) are Chapels of ease for Sandyford RC parish.
Kiltiernan is the CofI parish for the area, with the parish church before the Golden Ball on the Enniskerry Rd. The adjacent CofI parishes in Co. Dublin were Stillorgan, Killiney, Monkstown & Rathmichael, several of the other nearby civil parishes were part of unions with Monkstown or Kiltiernan etc.
Shane
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Thanks Shane
Thats useful info for me as well.
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I thought there must have been another CofI church and parish somewhere between Kiltiernan and Taney, but cant think of one at the moment...
S.
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me neither, and Im from Dun Laoghaire, and hubby is as you know from Stepaside, so we both know the area very well.
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all close to my area too... one of my cousins lives very near up by the Blue Light, relatives in Glencullen, and Sandyford also..
S.
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Sent the information to my uncle and auntie in Ireland (so that they could put Irish cheque in with the application) and the certificates arrived after ten days! Much better service than over here, and much cheaper too!
Thanks for all the help with the dates.
Have now found:
Matthew and Bridget Cullen married 25 Jun 1906. Parents Matthew Cullen, Barnacullia and Francis Cullen, Woodside. That'll give me something to go on. Bridget died 18 Mar 1914 of septic peritonitus. Trying to find her other children now. I've got Sarah, Elizabeth and Mary on 1911 census. I met Annie when I was a child. Not sure when she was born, but obviously after 1911 census and before Mar 1914. Think there was a boy too, but not sure about that.
Also got Matthew's parents' wedding cert, Sarah (Seragh) Rothery (servant in Murphystown) and Matthew Cullen (stone cutter in Bootastown), 15 Jun 1871. Parents: Denis Cullen (Mason) and James Rothery (Labourer).
Anyway, thanks again everyone :-)
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Barnacullia and Francis Cullen, Woodside....
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Also got Matthew's parents' wedding cert, Sarah (Seragh) Rothery (servant in Murphystown) and Matthew Cullen (stone cutter in Bootastown), 15 Jun 1871.
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some quick info on the locations ..
Woodside townland borders Barnacullia and is to the north of it, and include parts of Sandyford village
Murphystown townland is also next to Sandyford, and Woodside townland, and to the north east of Woodside.
I think Matthew's address may be Booterstown - which is on the coast between the town of Blackrock and Dublin city.
Shane
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Yes. It does look like Booterstown, now that you have said that.
Just looking up 1901 and 1911 census now and then onto familysearch to see what I can find.
Thanks.
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http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/search.jsp?namefm
Dont know if you have already looked at this, but there might be something extra in it
The first name is Matthew Cullen/Sara Rothery.
The others might well be linked
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http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/search.jsp?namefm=
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Forgot to say that the second link is for Rothery
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Hi. The link doesn't seem to work, but I have used the site thanks. It's great as has godparents too, which is a good link for some of the names as well.
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No probs!!
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Hello.
I've tried, unsuccessfully, to get hold of Bridget Cullen's birth certificate from the GRO.
I know that she was an adult in 1906, and am assuming that this was 21 years in 1906?
Her father was Francis Cullen and he was a stonecutter.
Her residence at the time of her wedding was Woodside.
I have all this from her wedding certificate. (Church in Sandyford, registrar's district of Dundrum, Union of Rathdown, County of Dublin).
I know that she died in 1914 (18th March). It says aged 29 on the certificate.
The 1911 census has her age as 28.
I sent off for the birth certificate with the father's name and profession, 1885, Rathdown, Dublin, as the details. No luck. They checked the details from 1880 to 1890. Maybe I have the place wrong? However, when I looked up Bridget Cullen, Dublin, 1880 to 1890 on Ancestry.com, there are loads!!! Does anyone know whether I got no result as I had narrowed the search to Rathdown, or would County Dublin have been too vague for the GRO?
Thanks.
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P.S. I meant to say, I was assuming she was at least 21 in 1906, not that she was exactly 21.
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as far as I remember Bridget just had Co. Dublin on the census returns - other than her residence at the time of marriage, is there some evidence she was born in the Barnacullia area ?
Co. Dublin was covered by a number of registration districts
Rathdown - most of south east Co. Dublin, but also a large section of north Co. Wicklow
South Dublin - south west county Dublin, and also all of the south city
Bathrothery - north county Dublin
and also some parts of Dublin north, which also cover all of the north city
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...
Matthew and Bridget Cullen married 25 Jun 1906. Parents Matthew Cullen, Barnacullia and Francis Cullen, Woodside.
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note that residence on marriage certs are for the bride & groom at the time of marriage - not their fathers. So it may be their family home, that's often not the case..
S.
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dont know if you've ruled this one out already - but there's a baptism listed in Dublin city for a Bridget Cullen in 1881, with father's name Francis
see : Baptism of Bridget Cullen - 6 July 1881 (http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/75e0d20199924)
The city is part of othe overall county Dublin, although most people born in the city record their place of birth on the census as 'Dublin' or 'Dublin city'. The parish is St. Mary's so if she was born nearby then the district would be Dublin North. A civil cert would show occupation for this Francis.
The only birth that seems to fit on the BMD INdex is this one in Dublin South - might possibly have taken place in a hospital in the south city.
Name: Bridget Cullen
Registration district: Dublin South
Event type: Birth
Quarter and year: Jul-Sep 1881
Volume: 2 / Page: 757
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This is probably a stupid question ( ::)) but have you looked at the House and Building returns form on the 1911 census??
Isabella Rothery lived at the same address.
Not sure how this will help, but ive learned not to ignore any small snippet of information
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Mmm ... Interesting. I know from my aunt that we are related somehow to the Roes. I found a Bessie cullen in barnacullia in 1911, and the same family in 1901, although she was Elizabeth Cullen then. I don't know if it was a sixth sense or just adding two and two and getting five, but I sent off for hers and Francis wedding cert. they lived in Stepaside and Woodside. Both of their fathers were stone cutters (although I'm beginning to think that everyone was who lived there!) she was widowed by1901. I do know that my great grandfather and Bridget were related. Everyone else seems to have come from the sandyford area, so my hunch is with the Francis Cullen and Elizabeth Rowe record as Elizabeth later lives a few houses down from Bridget in barnacullia. What I don't know is how to be sure that this is the right set of parents for her? When I looked at the wedding certificate for Bridget and Matthew, the two witnesses were James Doyle and Annie roe (Elizabeth roe had a sister called Annie, who married a James Doyle ... But there are loads of Doyles in the area, so that could be coincidence too!)
Thanks Maggiegorey ... Hadn't thought of that. Rothery was Matthew's mother's maiden name. I have been able to trace lots of rothery relations. I will check back through the 1911 forms though :-)
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P.s. They're down as not being able to write on the marriage certs, so presumably the three or four years difference in Bridget's ages across various sources are not to be worried about? I'm guessing the baptism one would be the one to go with, as the priest would have been able to read and write?
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Maybe you and I should get together - there is a distinct possibility that our families are related, as Barnacullia was such a small place at that time, and the same families are turning up again and again.
the hardings were born, I know that much, but after the 1901 census, a whole clather of them vanished. In 1911, there are only four listed, and i cant find marriage certs, death certs or any other kind of cert.
They must have existed though ::) cos my husband and his father are the proof.
Im having the same problem with my own mothers family - it seems to be a problem where there were mixed marriages. the girl in the records office mentioned to me that quite often, if someone "married out" they were cut off from whichever side of the family took exception.
it might explain a lot!!!!
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I wasnt far wrong!!
Cant connect the branches yet, but there are Hardings and Cullens listed on Irish Genealogy - however this branch seem to be RC!!
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The major problem is only two census returns as well. My English side was so much easier to trace ... That and the fact my great grandfather was one of sixteen surviving children! It doesn't help that both my great grandparents were cullens ... Or that she was, to all intents and purposes, orphaned aged five. I know nothing of any hardings I'm afraid. That name hasn't come up at all in my searches. Intriguing though. I don't think there was any animosity in the family ... Except for the fact the children were sent to orphanages, rather than fostered within the family, as I'm told barnacullia was famous for.
I know that my nan went to live with her grandmother from 1914 til about 1918, when the grandmother (who could be Elizabeth roe) died. Then she lived with an aunty. Don't know the auntie's name, but her daughters were polly and Annie!
Just read your post ... Do you means ours are rc and the link between cullens and hardings is not?
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Hi
What I meant was that my husbands family were RC (his father was born COI), but they seem to have changed religion like their underwear.
On the 1911 census, Margaret and Martha Harding are visiting a Walter Pender in Balgriffin (whom Im told Margaret married - cant find any evidence0 but they list their religion as RC.
Now there are Hardings all over the place - one lot in Dublin city (who may or may not be related) are very firmly RC, but according to what Ive learned so far, my husbands g/g/gfather was COI, but his g/g/gmother was RC!!
Thats what I mean about not being able to connect the dots - it means chasing down stuff in the Rep Church Body library in Churchtown (COI) or trying to find certs in the GRO.
I now know why genealogists charge so muych!!!
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Forgot to say that the Cullen/Harding link in Dublin is RC. If you put in Cullen, on Irish Genealogy, and then put Harding as another name, you get nine links to Hardings/Cullens, but I have no idea where they fit.
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Mmm ... Will have to bear it in mind. Will have a look at that link. Yes to the charging ... I think I'd quite lie it as a job though! Quite enjoy it all, despite the frustrations!
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::) ::)
I call it addictive, soul destroying, fascinating, challenging.....!!!
There was a time I used to spend all of my computer time on craft sites - now I would'nt know what to do with one!!! ;D ;D
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Just had a sudden thought ...
On Bridget's wedding cert in 1906, it says her father was Francis Cullen. It doesn't say deceased. Would it always have said that, if he was dead?
The reason I ask, is that Elizabeth roe/ Bessie Roe, claims she is a widow in 1901 and 1911. Maybe that means she can't be my Bridget's mother?
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Not necessessarily - they were'nt very literate, and unless they had occasion to obtain their birth certs or baptismal certs, sometimes they werentsure of their birth dates.
My own father about forty years ago had to get his boirth cert for a job, and discovered he'd been celebrating his birthday on the wrong day for about thirtyfive years!!
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Sorry, I meant on the 1901 and 1911 censuses, she's put widow.
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Hi
Replying to this thread after a long time.
I've found out a lot since ... Found my Nan's sisters and their descendants 🎉 I won't post the details as the descendants are still living and I don't know if they'd want me to. However, one ended up moving to England in the late forties with husband and children. Managed to get my mum and aunt to meet one of their first cousins before my mum passed, which was amazing. The older sister loved with an aunt on her Dad's side, and not an orphanage at all!
The bit that I still can't find is Bridget Cullen's birth.
These things I now know though:
1906 marriage at Sandyford, entry on parish records gives husband Matthew and his father. I'm ok for his side of the family, so don't need any help there at the moment thanks.
Her father Francis Cullen, stone cutter. Both adults at time of marriage.
I've since seen the marriage entry on the parish marriage register. It confirmed Matthew's mother's name, so I'm ok for his family. But ... It also gives Bridget's mother's name as Bridget. So ... This rules out the 1881 birth in Dublin where a Francis Cullen was married to Elizabeth Roe, I believe?
The 1911 census gives Matthew's place of birth as Co of Dublin, but Bridget's as DUBLIN. It gives her age as 28, suggesting DOB of c1883.
Bridget (wife of Matthew) death cert March 1914, gives her age as 29. Witness sister in law Frances Cullen, who was one of Matthew's youngr sisters.
So ... I still can't find Bridget's birth. But I do know that she was the daughter of Francis and Bridget Cullen. She was born around 1883 to 1885, possibly Dublin City rather than locally? Maybe her father was stone cutting in Dublin at the time but was from barnacullia area as that's where Bridget married Matthew and started her family?
Any new ideas here gratefully appreciated, as it's been a while since I reviewed this thread.
There is the 1901 census that one of you kindly found for me earlier in the thread.
I did find a baptism for a Francis Cullen in Stepaside in 1850 to a Patrick Cullen and Joanna Connor. Haven't found anything about these two yet, assuming I have the right Francis Cullen.
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Hi There
There appears to be a good match to a Francis Cullen dying in 1888 aged 45.
Registered South Dublin
Living At Digged Street
Occupation Stonecutter
Tara
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Oops
Auto Correct
That should say DIGGES Street . . .
Instinct is saying that Bridget's mother WAS actually ELIZABETH ROE and that the entry as it being Bridget was incorrect, just an error.
Bridget Cullen born to Francis Cullen and Elizabeth Roe (Rowe) . . . 1881 @ 15 Marlborough Street, Dublin City
If you note on the 1901 Census for Elizabeth Roe Cullen all her other children were also born in Dublin City.
Tara
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Hi Again
So, I'm 99.9% sure that Francis Cullen and Elizabeth Roe are the correct couple to work with.
They married in 1869 in Sandyford.
Son Patrick born 1870 Barnacullia.
Daughter Mary born 1872 Barnacullia.
Family then moved to Dublin City.
Son Bernard (Bryan) born 1873 Maryville Terrace.
Daughter Anna born 1875 Marlborough Street.
Daughter Elizabeth born 1876 Marlborough Street.
Daughter Margaret born 1879 Marlborough Street.
Daughter Bridget born 1881 Marlborough Street.
Son Francis born Approx 1883 unknown as yet.
Son Michael born 1885 Digges Street.
Son James born 1886 Digges Street.
You will note that these sons add up to the ages etc of the family in Barnacullia in 1901 & 1911.
Also note that sons Michael and James also have the same birth address as the Francis Cullen that died in 1888 at Digges Street.
If I find more I shall post it . . .
Tara
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I know what you mean ... And also that an Anna roe is a witness to Bridget and matthews wedding entry.
Also on the same marriage entry, Matthew's parents were originally written as Matthew and Brigida, crossed out, with Sara written above. The mother's name on the entry below is Brigida as well, and of course so is my Bridget herself. Maybe the clerk got confused.
Plus there's the Bessie Cullen widow on the 1911 census living in Barnacullia and 1901 as Elizabeth. Both censuses same children . All bar eldest born in city of Dublin. Grand daughter Sarah aged four living there. Could be my great aunt but she's on the census with Bridget and Matthew and my nan.
So yes I feel the same as you about Francis and Elizabeth Roe. It's a shame there were so many Cullens around. It's as difficult to identify and distinguish between them all as Smiths over here 🙄
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Thank you for the tie in with Francis Cullen death.
I've gone backwards and forwards with this lots for years and years.
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. . . I have Cullen's from this area on my tree from Barnacullia but they married into my family tree so I didn't research them further but we could have a connection . . .
I also have Rothery's and Roe's too from this area !!!
Tara
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There are so many of them, I'm not surprised 😂😂
Matthew was one of ten and Bridget, if we've got the right parents, was one of nine! And Sarah Rothery (Matthew's mother) was one of thirteen!
To be fair, my English granddad's father was one of sixteen ... Fifteen of which survived childhood. Their mother unsurprisingly, died aged 50.
It doesn't help that both of my great grandparents' surnames were Cullen 🙄
I'm guessing they are related somewhere down the line too!
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I also noted that Elizabeth Roe Cullen in 1911 states that she had 10 children and I gave you the names of 10 children born to Francis Cullen and Elizabeth Roe in Barnacullia and Dublin City.
Just another reason to nudge towards being 100% positive that this is the correct family to work with.
Tara
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Yes agreed. A shame Bridget wasn't living with her in 1901 🙄
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It would appear that Francis & Elizabeth had 5 sons and 5 daughters and going by the 1911 census, Bridget was the only daughter to survive.
There are some civil records for the family but most are church / baptism records.
Tara
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Just noted that you haven't mentioned that Matthew and Bridget had a son called Matthew born in 1914.
Tara
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Have read through this thread from the start and a few things to mention although after all this time these things may not be new.
Reply #6- I don't think first cousins can marry under Irish and Catholic Church law, so am assuming I had found the wrong one?
There is no legal restriction on the marriage of first cousins. https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/birth-family-relationships/getting-married/legal-requirements-for-marriage/
The religious angle covered here https://www.jstor.org/stable/45101965 (preview)
Bridget? age 11 https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Dublin/Dundrum/Dundrum/1316053/
Age may not be accurate since the form would have been filled out by her employer.
Death of Bridget on 18 March-
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/deaths_returns/deaths_1914/05312/4478118.pdf
Birth of son Matthew on 1 March-
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/birth_returns/births_1914/01423/1584247.pdf
Sadly baby Matthew died aged 3 months in Loughinstown Workhouse- 'Want of Mother's milk' and 'convulsions given as cause of death-
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/deaths_returns/deaths_1914/05296/4472740.pdf
Reply #61- It also gives Bridget's mother's name as Bridget. So ... This rules out the 1881 birth in Dublin where a Francis Cullen was married to Elizabeth Roe, I believe?
I have seen instances where Elizabeth and Bridget used for same person. This seems to suggest it could be so-
https://www.whatsinaname.net/female-names/Bridget.html
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Hi Aghadowey
We've pretty much established that:
Bridget and Matthew weren't first cousins . . .
The age on the 1901 census states 17 NOT 11 😂
OP states that there were some errors on Bridget and Matthew's cert so it's possible that Bridget's mother's name was another one of these errors.
I don't know if you've seen all of my posts but I have tied Bridget Cullen born 1881 to the 1901/1911 Cullen family . . .
Hope this clears things up for you . . .
Tara
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Just noted that you haven't mentioned that Matthew and Bridget had a son called Matthew born in 1914.
Tara
Oh yes. Sorry. He would've been my Nan's little brother. Bridget died of peritonitis in March 1914, following childbirth. He died too. The surviving children Sarah, Elizabeth (my nan) and Annie. Mary died in 1913 aged three. Nan remembers putting pennies on her eyes. Then the family was split up. The girls were so little 😪 Their dad disappeared to Scotland as the story goes. Sarah to an aunt, Nan to either one of the grandmothers or an aunt. I'm not sure which, but the census from 26 might help. Annie to an orphanage.
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It would appear that Francis & Elizabeth had 5 sons and 5 daughters and going by the 1911 census, Bridget was the only daughter to survive.
There are some civil records for the family but most are church / baptism records.
Tara
I'll look those deaths up. Thanks.
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Have read through this thread from the start and a few things to mention although after all this time these things may not be new.
Reply #6- I don't think first cousins can marry under Irish and Catholic Church law, so am assuming I had found the wrong one?
There is no legal restriction on the marriage of first cousins. https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/birth-family-relationships/getting-married/legal-requirements-for-marriage/
The religious angle covered here https://www.jstor.org/stable/45101965 (preview)
Bridget? age 11 https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Dublin/Dundrum/Dundrum/1316053/
Age may not be accurate since the form would have been filled out by her employer.
Death of Bridget on 18 March-
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/deaths_returns/deaths_1914/05312/4478118.pdf
Birth of son Matthew on 1 March-
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/birth_returns/births_1914/01423/1584247.pdf
Sadly baby Matthew died aged 3 months in Loughinstown Workhouse- 'Want of Mother's milk' and 'convulsions given as cause of death-
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/deaths_returns/deaths_1914/05296/4472740.pdf
Reply #61- It also gives Bridget's mother's name as Bridget. So ... This rules out the 1881 birth in Dublin where a Francis Cullen was married to Elizabeth Roe, I believe?
I have seen instances where Elizabeth and Bridget used for same person. This seems to suggest it could be so-
https://www.whatsinaname.net/female-names/Bridget.html
Oh bless. I assumed Matthew died at home. That's even more sad 😪
Bridget died at home.
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Have read through this thread from the start and a few things to mention although after all this time these things may not be new.
Reply #6- I don't think first cousins can marry under Irish and Catholic Church law, so am assuming I had found the wrong one?
There is no legal restriction on the marriage of first cousins. https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/birth-family-relationships/getting-married/legal-requirements-for-marriage/
The religious angle covered here https://www.jstor.org/stable/45101965 (preview)
Bridget? age 11 https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Dublin/Dundrum/Dundrum/1316053/
Age may not be accurate since the form would have been filled out by her employer.
Death of Bridget on 18 March-
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/deaths_returns/deaths_1914/05312/4478118.pdf
Birth of son Matthew on 1 March-
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/birth_returns/births_1914/01423/1584247.pdf
Sadly baby Matthew died aged 3 months in Loughinstown Workhouse- 'Want of Mother's milk' and 'convulsions given as cause of death-
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/deaths_returns/deaths_1914/05296/4472740.pdf
Reply #61- It also gives Bridget's mother's name as Bridget. So ... This rules out the 1881 birth in Dublin where a Francis Cullen was married to Elizabeth Roe, I believe?
I have seen instances where Elizabeth and Bridget used for same person. This seems to suggest it could be so-
https://www.whatsinaname.net/female-names/Bridget.html
Wow. Didn't know about Bridget/ Elizabeth/ Betsy.
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I didn't see a mention that Matthew and Bridget were not first cousins in the thread but early on was this-
Yes that's the Mathew Cullen. I have got back to his parents by looking at the Irish Genealogy site (complete with Latin names!) and found several of his relatives. I did find a record for a baptism of a Brdget Cullen, but the parents seem to be Mathew's uncle and his wife, Elisabeth Roe (who lived in Dublin City for a while but also in Barnacullia) ... I don't think first cousins can marry under Irish and Catholic Church law, so am assuming I had found the wrong one?
Which is why I posted that first cousins can marry.
I know that you (Tara) had found Bridget in the 1901 census (reply #9) but her age being 17 not 11 wasn't mentioned in that post.
Nannyj- no need to quote all of previous reply as it makes you post very long ;)
Before our current health system the Workhouse would have been the place for hospital care so that's likely why wee Matthew ended up there sometime after his mother died.
https://www.workhouses.org.uk/Rathdown/ (you can see that the hospital building is show near the bottom of the map)
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I haven't spotted any good matches to the deaths of Bridget's sisters but given that they were most likely in Dublin City there are a LOT to go through and I may have just missed them . . .
I don't think the family were great at registering records as a lot of the births don't seem to be registered either but I have come across this issue before . . .
I am looking at two possible siblings for Francis Cullen . . .
Catherine Cullen who married a Joseph Doyle in 1865 . . .
Also a Mary Cullen who married a Matthew Doyle in 1869 . . .
Both Mary and Catherine list their address as Stepaside (same as Francis), list their father as Patrick (same as Francis) and list their father's occupation as Quarryman (same as Francis) . . .
I'm laughing here as Mary Cullen Doyle had a granddaughter who married my Great Grandfather's brother . . .
If I'm correct I can put you in touch with this lady's relative but we need to be sure first . . . I will double check with him to see how much of his Cullen tree he has done and will let you know . . .
Tara
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A Sarah Cullen, age 9, died in 1916. Could this be Matthew and Bridget's daughter Sarah?
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/deaths_returns/deaths_1916/05231/4448727.pdf (informant was a Mary Doyle)
IF this was the correct Sarah could Mary Doyle (a relative?) have been caring for her after her mother died?
Added- see next reply which confirms this Sarah was not the daughter of Matthew and Bridget.
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A Sarah Cullen, age 9, died in 1916. Could this be Matthew and Bridget's daughter Sarah?
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/deaths_returns/deaths_1916/05231/4448727.pdf (informant was a Mary Doyle)
IF this was the correct Sarah could Mary Doyle (a relative?) have been caring for her after her mother died?
No. I met Sarah's daughter. She died in the 1960s in England. She was living with the Traynors. Cullen daughter married a Traynor.
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Good to have that sorted. Very difficult to sort out all the different Cullen families there.
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Good to have that sorted. Very difficult to sort out all the different Cullen families there.
I know. I hadn't realised it was such a popular surname. And Bridget and Matthew both being Cullens with families from the same area has made it all the harder.
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So . . . The following are just possible leads to get you back further with Francis Cullen . . .
Please note that these are just works in progress at the moment . . .
I am looking at Francis' parents possibly being Patrick Cullen and Johanna Connor . . . I know you had mentioned these before . . .
So Patrick and Johanna married in 1838 and had a son called Francis born in 1839 BUT this is too early a birth for your Francis as in 1869 he states that he was 19 giving his birth year to be approximately 1850 . . .
But, it was relatively common for a couple to have a child, this child to pass away, and then to christen a later child with this same name.
Looking at Johanna (or Jane) . . . A Jane Cullen passed away in 1883 in Stepaside . . . Stating widow . . . Son James informant . . .
I would have liked to see Francis naming his first or second daughter Jane (to establish naming patterns) but reviewing I noticed that his first daughter was christened Mary JANE Cullen . . . Not an exact science but a good start.
I found a Catherine Cullen born to Patrick Cullen and Johanna/Jane Connor in 1841 and she's a very good match to the Catherine Cullen that I mentioned earlier that married a Joseph Doyle in 1865.
There is a death for a James Cullen in 1884 in Stepaside who looks to be a good match for the son of Patrick and Jane Cullen . . .
Again, all these are just works in progress for now but I just wanted to type them up before I couldn't decifer my notes 😁
Tara
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Thanks Tara.
Working notes as you say but a good start.
I've always found it strange calling successive children the same name as a dead child. I can understand the wanting to carry family names on etc but I've found this happening to four children sometimes. As a mum, I don't think I could've saddled a child with the same name after losing three children of the same name. Almost tempting fate 😱
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HA
I'm convinced there were only about 10 Christian names in Ireland 100 years ago . . . A slight exaggeration but it feels that way sometimes.
On the other hand it can prove handy when trying to work out different families with the same surname in one area . . .
While Bernard / Brian and variant spellings is not a rare Christian name (this is the same name just in case you don't know) I have spotted it appearing a few times on what I'm thinking is your family . . . Again, still a work in progress . . .
Tara
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Didn't know about Bernard and Bryan. Ny nan and grandad's first child in 1932 was a Bryan. Only lived a few weeks 😪
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HA
I'm convinced there were only about 10 Christian names in Ireland 100 years ago . . . A slight exaggeration but it feels that way sometimes.
On the other hand it can prove handy when trying to work out different families with the same surname in one area . . .
While Bernard / Brian and variant spellings is not a rare Christian name (this is the same name just in case you don't know) I have spotted it appearing a few times on what I'm thinking is your family . . . Again, still a work in progress . . .
Tara
Matthew, James, John, Patrick, Catherine, Mary, Bridget, Elizabeth, Anne.
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Working on the presumption that Catherine and Mary Cullen are siblings of Francis Cullen I have spotted the following . . . Firstly the two sisters married two brothers ie Joseph and Matthew Doyle
I can't spot anything for Catherine and Joseph in the Sandyford records and given that Doyle is such a common surname I haven't looked further afield . . .
Re Mary Cullen and Matthew Doyle I have spotted the following
Joseph Doyle b 1870
Johanna Doyle b 1872
Bernard Doyle b 1874
Patrick Doyle b 1876
Sarah Doyle b 1879
Catherine Doyle b 1881
James Doyle b 1883
Given that Mary named her first daughter Johanna/ Jane it's looking good for her parents being Patrick Cullen and Johanna Connor as mentioned before . . .
Also note the Christian name Bernard appearing here . . .
Tara
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I think I have given you enough names to fry your brain and to start working on . . .
Again, presuming that I am correct I shall explain our connection . . .
Your Grandmother had a second cousin called Susan Flood.
Susan Flood married a William Hayden.
William Hayden was the brother of my Great Great Grandfather Michael Hayden.
This world is TOO small 😁
Take Care
Tara
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How strange is that?! So we're related by marriage 😂
What is the saying about degtees of separation ... Six, I think it is.
Very small world.
Definitely fried brain. Going to revisit all of this over the weekend.
I'm handwrite my trees out on A2 paper, as it's so much easier to see.
It'd be great to find if there's a connection between Matthew's Cullens and Bridget's, being as they do seem to all originated from the Sandyford area rather than from all over Dublin ... But that's a lot more work and for another day 🤪
Thanks so much for all your help 🥰
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It may be that the Cullens were in the area for quite a while and you might never sort them all out.
My grandfather's grandmother was from a townland with 17 families with the same surname. 16 were local and 17th was an incomer. The best I've been able to do (with the help of a now deceased relative) is say which ones he knew were related and which one might have been a more distant connection.
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Ha ... Yes. It was a bit tongue in cheek given the commonality of the surname. Would be nice 🤪😉
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Hi There
You probably have these already but I'll post them here just in case . . .
Michael Roe d 1882
Anna Clancy Roe d 1904
Elizabeth Roe b 1849
Michael Roe b 1851
Hugh Roe b 1853
Joanna Roe b 1855
Thomas Rice b 1857
Anna Roe b 1859
Margaret Roe b 1864
Maria Roe b 1867
Tara
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I spotted that Denis Cullen ended up passing away in the Naas Workhouse / Hospital . . .
I wonder why he ended up there 🤔
Tara
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Thanks for those. I started looking today but didn't find all those children.
I know that workhouses were also used by those needing medical treatment and not necessarily destitution.
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Oh I know that the workhouse was also a hospital . . . It was the location that I was wondering about ie Naas County Kildare as there were nearer workhouse / hospitals to the general Sandyford / Glencullen area 🤔
Tara
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Oh yes. I see what you mean.
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Did you mention that you were in touch with recent Cullen's ?
Obviously don't post their details here for privacy reasons but I know there is a Cullen family still in the area and I was wondering is this the family that you were talking about ?
I had totally forgotten but I am also connected to the Cullen family that still live in the area . . .
Tara
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No. They don't live locally anymore.
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Any idea of the cause of death? I'm thinking Parkinson's ... As it looks completely different from the phythsis a few rows above?
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/view/?record_id=cide-6022618
If you click on ., you can see the record for Francis Cullen (either Bridget's father or her husband, Matthew's uncle 🙄
Thank you
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I'm pretty sure it's Phythsis . . . (Just on a bad handwriting day)
And that's Bridget's FATHER . . .
Tara
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What makes you certain about which Francis it is?
It was my thought with the stone cutter, but Matthew's family were stone cutters too and his uncle was born same time was Bridget's father. Unfortunately ancestry website is down, so can't double check the other Francis's place of birth.
Also, it's the same clerk's writing as above but it does look like a different word. I tried googling it. Parkinson's was identified in the early 1800s.
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I think you need to relook at all the posts that I made.
I have shown you that the Francis Cullen that lived in Digges Street was Bridget's FATHER . . .
I have shown you the timeline from his marriage in Sandyford church, his first two children being born in that parish and the move to Dublin City where his following 8 children (including Bridget) were born, up to his death in 1888 and his widow and surviving children moving back to the Sandyford parish where they appear on the 1901 & 1911 Census . . .
You even have Francis Cullen (who died at Digges Street) marriage which states that his father was PATRICK Cullen (absolutely NO connection to your Matthew / Denis Cullen branch).
I'm sorry but I can't understand why you are finding this confusing . . .
Tara