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Research in Other Countries => Canada => Topic started by: Bo on Monday 09 July 12 13:28 BST (UK)
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Hi I'm hoping someone can help me find a marriage for William Gosen and Amelia Holman - possibly Canada and region of 1870, give or take a few years.
There is a WG in 1881 Welsh census plus Amelia Gosen but they lived in different addresses. His birth is given as Canada and I'm wondering if they met and married there before settling in Wales. Any help much appreciated :)
Bo
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hi bo
the census you looked at as it stands yes different counties for both of them but william is a lodger in his record and the one for amelia has a list of other people with it which is a mistranscription only if you look at the original recore after each set of family names there are 2 lines denoting where one family ends and the next starts hence the mix up . now as a piece of guess work maybe william is living else where from his family because of work or he,s had to go in search of work , always remember a census is taken and it,s where a person is on the night and time the census is taken is where they are registered not where they normally would be living with there family .i presume you,ve tried the 1871 & 1891 cen and can,t find them [ at least i can,t ] so i,m wondering if they have emmigrated back to canada , having said that i,ve had a cursory look in collections canada but can,see them but others with far more expertise probably will .
regards
trevor
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thank you for your response Trevor :)
I too think they may have been living apart in 1881 for the reasons you state - work
I can't find them in 1871 but Amelia Gosen can be found and living with a Richard Saunders/Sanders in Wales. I think she may be a widow because a marriage certificate for one of her kids state the father (William Gosen) as deceased and occupation as Soldier.
I can't find a death certificate for William Gosen either - he's very elusive ::) I wondered, as a soldier, could he have died elsewhere but not sure how to progress with that one !
Anyway, thank you again for taking the time to search for me :)
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out of curiosity and to get it straight in my head we have the gosens living apart in 1881 and nothing for them in 1871 is that right , so when you say you,ve found amelia living with an r saunders when is that and also what date is the marriage cert .
i,ve just looked in service/pension records for the army and he,s not in those under gosen so did a variants search and still nothing for anyone born in canada , but have found a death in gro army death indices 1851 - 1955 for a william gosden egypt 1884 page 915 but without buying the cert who knows if it,s correct .
in answer to your question if he could have died overseas then yes quite easily and although we have the above he could easily have been either mistranscribed by his name or even lost in the mists of time , it,s always possible he went back to canada and just disappeared back then it was easy enough and the family assumed he was dead a marriage cert is not proof of death or who a father is or was
my own grandad put in fathers name a fictitious name on his marriage cert as i know full well he didn,t know his fathers name as he was born out of wedlock it was just done for proprieties sake .
sorry to run on .
regards
trevor
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thanks again Trevor :)
Amelia and her children are found in the 1891 census with Richard Saunders. They do eventually marry but not until c 1898.
The William Gosden death fits into the time-scale but I wouldn't know how to verify it is the same person ??? It just seems strange that Amelia's husband has 'disappeared' without a local death record which implies he died elsewhere or, indeed, he did a moonlight flit back to Canada without his family >:(
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hi bo
there is something you could try and that is to post on the canada board a general look up for william i don,t think we can get much more mileage out of this post now , so you have nothing to lose
regards
trevor
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Please do not start another thread on this person, keeping all info on the one thread is much better for any searchers who are looking. If they don't find anything, it won't matter how many threads you start.
A couple of questions?
Was Amelia born in Canada and were any children born in Canada. Can you give us the approx dates of birth for William, Amelia and the children.
On the marriage certificate to Richard Saunders, does it give Amelia's parents or her place of birth. The answers to these questions could help in trying to determine what part of Canada they may have been living in. Al bmd's are by province and what is available varies from province to province. There isn't a central registry as in other countries.
If he was a soldier, have you checked the military records at find my past.
Goshen/Gosen is not a comon name in the census records of Canada.
I will keep looking.
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hi valeriec
normally i,m with you but as we weren,t getting any help i thought it worthwhile doing a different approach to this .
as to FindMyPast army records i did that earlier and nothing in there or any other armed forces records see my earlier post as it is i tried to find anything on him in collections canada but didn,t come up with anything .
regards
trevor
ps i only ever suggest another thread as a last resort .
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I went to familysearch.org to find the names of the children as they weren't listed in the post.
William Francis baptism 1878
Amelia Caroline, baptism 16 June 1878
Agnes, baptism 12 Oct 1879
Bedwelty Monmouth England
Can you confirm these are the children of William and Amelia. This will at least place the family for 1878 and 1879.
Also
1881 Census
William Gosen, age 36
b. 1845 Canada, lodger, married, general labourer
Address - Graig Berthllwyd Cottage
Llanfabon, Glamorganshire, Wales
Head of househould is Edwin Boulton
I would suggest that this is the William Gosen married to Amelia and now we have his year of birth 1845.
All of the above can be very helpful in trying to find where he was born and married.
I have gone back through most of the census info availalbe through automated genealogy and library and archives Canada. My best guess and I am say GUESS would be to concentrate on Ontario, probably the Frontenac and Waterloo areas. I would search for Gosen/Gossen and alternative spellings for anyone with the names William, Francis, Agnes, Caroline as many people used a naming pattern and that may be the only way to narrow down a search.
I would also find the source for the info on family search and contact to see if you can find the original baptism registrations as that could give more information.
I would get the marriage registration details (not the certificate) for Amelia and Richard Saunders. The registration will more than likely have more details than the marriage certificate which usually only has the date and place. Registration details can give place of birth, parents, etc.
There is a death on Family Search for a William Gosen 1910 age 65 (age out by 10 years) Pittsburgh, Frontenac, Ontario
Hope this helps some.
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The 1881 census indicates Amelia was born in the Channel Islands. Have you ruled out the possibility they married there?
Jacquie
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I went to family search in hopes of finding marriages but no luck.
I did however come across something that was interesting and I would keep the info in case it could come in handy at some point.
birth
Amelia Elizabeth Caroline Bell
b. 16 Sept. 1872, St Pierre Port, Guernsey, Channel Islands
d. 17 Nov. 1872
father - Fredk Augustus Bell
mother - AMELIA HOLMAN
This is almost the exact name given to the first child of Amelia Holman and William Gosen.
I went to Free BMD and found the births of the 3 younger children but not Carolyn A. Gosen. She was baptized at the same time as her brother William Frederick, 16 June 1878.
Gosen, William Frederick b. June qtr 1875
Gosen, Louisa Mabel b. March qtr 1877
Gosen, Agnes b. Sept qtr 1878
Gosen, Elizabeth b. Sept qtr 1880
These 4 children all born Bedwelty. I can't find a birth for Carolyn A. Gosen anywhere in Egland in 1873/74.
It may be possible that the Amelia Holman above is the one that married William Gosen and I would look at anything for that area of the Channel Islands. it would not have been unusual for Amelia to name her other female children after her first daughter that died.
All this needs to be verified but is information to store away in case it does pan out.
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In the 1891 census
Carolyn Gosen, age 17, servant,
birthplace - Portsmouth, Hampshire
William Gosen, age 16
is listed as Head of household
his sisters Agnes and Elizabeth are now going by the surname Saunders
Amelia J. Saunders, age 38, mother
birthplace is listed as Alderney, Channel Islands.
I went to Free BMD to look for the birth of Carolyn again and found her
Carolyn Amelia Bell
Portsea, Hampshire
b. Dec qtr 1873, Vol 2b, page 462
there is also a Henry Francis, same qtr, vol and page, could be a coincidence or another son.
I still can't find a marriage for Amelia Holman/Bell and William Gosen and I am thinking they probably never officially married.
Amelia started using the surname Saunders as early as 1891 and I can'f find a marriage for her to Richard Saunders either. I found a marriage for Richard in Dec qtr 1898, Pontypridd, Vol 11a page 916 but it doesn't have an Amelia that page with any surname. So are you sure they married.
It does appear that Amelia Holman/Bell/Gosen/Saunders could be one and the same person.
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In case the Louisa Mabel Gosen that I found was part of this family, I found her death
Age 1, June qtr 1878, vol 11a page 73
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hello all and thank you so much for your responses :) you are all pretty much on the ball... except for the BELL part of this equation which may or not be relevant. They may be a relation to my Amelia but I don't think it it her. She was born Alderney, Channel Island c1853 and her father was George and mother Elizabeth H Squires. She is in the 1861 census but not the 1871 census tho the rest of her family are there.
Her children (by William Gosen) are Amelia Caroline Gosen 1874, William Fredrick 1875, Agnes 1878, Elizabeth 1880 and George Edward 1882 all apparently born Bedwelty / Merthyr Tydfil areas of Wales.
Amelia appears to marry Richard Saunders in 1896 in Bedwelty, Wales.
I'm working on the premise that Amelia was married to William Gosen from Canada in the 1881 census - even tho they are living apart. I think it's too much of a coincidence - when William cannot be found elsewhere - they live in close proximity and not be related.
I cannot find a marriage certificate for Amelia and William either in Channel Islands or mainland England/Wales. I'm clutching at straws to believe they married in Canada but, to tell the truth, I really don't know ??? ???
Also, I have posted in Wales and Canada sites (at various times) because I tend to work in a linear fashion and when I found them in Wales I went to that site and when I found Amelia's family in the Channel Islands I went to that site etc.... I don't mean to cause havoc but it seems appropriate to put them on the sites where someone may be abel to follow up where I cannot. I'm so pleased you have all chipped in and thank you so much... any suggestions welcome :)
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I hae just gone through all the other threads that you have on this family and it would have been nice if you had mentioned and linked them to this thread. It would have prevented a lot of work finding information that you already have.
There is absolutely no information leading Amelia to Canada or a marriage in Canada.
I believe that the Amelia Holman who married Fredk Augustus Bell is your Amelia. I also believe she was probably married to him in 1871 and that is why you didn't find her with the Holman family. They had a child that was born and died in 1872.
If Amelia and William Gosen married in the Channel Islands, you will have a very hard time finding the marriage as very little is online. You could try contacting churches looking for parish registers for bmd's as that may be the only way to find anything.
The birth I found for Carolyn Amelia Bell. Portsea, Hampshire, Dec qtr 1873 is the only match for her. The rest of the siblings are found on free bmd under Gosen but she was born in a different location from the rest and was baptized in June 1878 at the same time as her brother William. The only way for you to know for sure any of the information is to contact the church where the baptism took place and also order the birth registration information which could have more info than a birth certificate.
She obviously didn't have a problem using other surnames as she was using Sanders/Saunders in the 1891 census.
You may not have any luck finding the information you are searching for until more data is put online.
Good luck in your search but hopefully, in the future you will link all your threads.
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Thank you for your response Valeriec and all the time given to it. However, with all due respect, I didn't ask for any other information other than if someone could assist me with finding a possible Canadian marriage record. I also did not know that I should have linked sites nor indeed do I know how to actually do it, and apologise for giving you all that work.
I may not have information leading Amelia to Canada but I do know she was (apparently) married to William Gosen and there was a man of this name who was living in reasonable proximity to her to suggest he may be the husband - he was born in Canada and it seemed logical to follow this premise. Again, my apologies but, to tell the truth, I'm totally embarrassed at my ineptitude and not sure I will be asking for further assistance on this site.
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If a person has other threads on the same person at RootsChat it is helpful for everyone if there are links provided to avoid a duplication of efforts. To do that all you need to do is copy the URL from the first post of the thread and paste it into your post in the new thread. If there is more than one thread then you can modify your post to add additional URLs.
Jacquie
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It has been a while since I added to this (you can see from my post I didn't intend to) but I have found something that may substantiate my HOLMAN link to Canada. I have found a Canadian (Dover, Ontario) marriage record for Charles Reaume on 27 Nov 1877 to Louisa Holman 17yrs - Father George Holman Mother Elizabeth Squires
My Amelia Holman had a sister born 1860 (so age fits) and these are the parents' names.
Can anyone please assist me in finding out if Amelia and her family emigrated to Canada and that Amelia may have met/married/cohabited with William Gosen and then returned to Britain, specifically Wales. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Many thanks.
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It has been a while since I added to this (you can see from my post I didn't intend to) but I have found something that may substantiate my HOLMAN link to Canada. I have found a Canadian (Dover, Ontario) marriage record for Charles Reaume on 27 Nov 1877 to Louisa Holman 17yrs - Father George Holman Mother Elizabeth Squires
My Amelia Holman had a sister born 1860 (so age fits) and these are the parents' names.
The marriage registration for Louisa Holman and Charles Reaume indicates that Louisa was born in Raleigh Twp, Kent County, Ontario. That could be a mistake but I can't find them on any census after their marriage to check.
Jacquie
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Thank you so much Jacquie. I thought it was too much of a coincidence that the parents' names are exact but it could be one of those flukes that we come against sometimes.
BTW I should have clarified that Amelia Holman's sister was also called Louisa, born c1860.
Thank you again :)
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Dear Bo,
I'm not sure if you are still pursuing this query but I am happy to share the little info passed down to me.
William Gosen and Amelia Holman are my 2xgreat grandparents (via their daughter Agnes). my Nan (Annie Kennett nee Roach) first mentioned the name Gosen to us. Family tradition has it that this was the anglicised version of a French name, possibly Gausson (?).
I'm not sure if this is helpful or simply "muddies the water".
best regards
Martin
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Hello Martin
I'm always pursuing my queries and I'm so pleased to hear from another link in the family. My husband's (and therefore our kids) family come down through Agnes' brother, George.
I've seen the name Gausson (plus variants) and have often wondered if it is an anglicised version of the name. The fact Amelia is from the Channel Islands makes it more plausible.
Thank you so much for taking the time to reply. If I can return the favour just contact me. :)
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Martin, I forgot to ask if you have seen the census records that show your family (Roach) ?
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Hi Bo,
Thank you for your reply. I have a charming photo of Agnes Roach (nee Gosen) with three of her daughters taken in about 1910? If its not too remote a link I am happy to scan and send you a copy. Interesting if elusive family eh?!
regards
Martin
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Martin, I would absolutely LOVE to see Agnes and her family. Thank you so much! We don’t have any old photos of any Gosens so am absolutely thrilled.
Martin, how interesting is this family LOL ?? I’ve done the BMD thing but other than that don’t know too much. I am so keen to find out where Amelia’s husband was born/died...I just can’t find him. Some day, though...some day :)
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Hi Bo,
I have borrowed the Agnes Gosen photo from my sister. This has been duly scanned, please provide an e-mail address and I will send it as an attachment.
best regards
Martin
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Thank you so much Martin and thank your sister too. I will pm you an email :)