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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Herefordshire => Topic started by: Britgirl on Sunday 08 July 12 18:02 BST (UK)
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Ok, I give up! :(
I have been hunting for the baptism of my 3xGt Grandfather James Harris for decades now! Perhaps a fresh pair of eyes can help.
He married in Bath in 1835 but the 1851 census states he was born in Michaelchurch Escley and in 1861 it's Peterchurch. In 1841 it just said that he wasn't born in Somerset. His age consistently dates him to about 1800/01
I have ruled out the James Harris born in Michaelchurch Escley in 1797 as he died in 1818 aged 21 (working from memory here so might be a little out with dates)
Also ruled out are:
James chr 1796 Bromyard (s/o Edward & Anne): Found Herefordshire 1851
James chr 1797, Clodock (s/o Walter & Elizabeth): Found in Wales 1841-61 or Herefordshire 1851
James chr 1801, Brampton Bryan (s/o James & Mary): Found in Leominster 1841-51
James chr 1803, Bredwardine (s/o Thomas & Elizabeth): Found in Herefordshire 1851-1861.
Can anyone help?
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http://www.lhsarchive.org.uk/
might be worth a try
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Thanks RedMike.
I've had a lot of success on that site with a different (unrelated) Harris branch on my tree, so I'll give it another whirl.
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I hesitste to come in on this as my interests are in social history and geography really but there is a james harris on familysearch in english bicknor in glos. june 1799,there seemed to be a natural flow of people from longtown/clodock area down the monnow valley and on towards the crossing of the severn at gloucester,
just a thought
mike
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Thanks Mike, that's exactly the sort of fresh approach I was meaning. :)
James' wife, Judith Catherine Edwards (who I also can't find prior to her marriage! ::)) states she was born ca 1811 in Abergavenny, so having had such little success with either of their baptisms has got me wondering how they both ended up in Bath, at which age they moved (as adults looking for work or as children with their family etc), which routes they may have taken, and how they may have me,t in the hopes it might open up new avenues to explore.
Interestingly Judith, who went variously under the name of Judith and Catherine, was in the 1861 census as Jane from Hythe in Kent. ??? I have no idea where that came from, unless the transcriber copied the wrong line in his book at that point!! ;D
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Having just gone through my notes and rechecking the census images it seems Judith was also down as being a Jane Harris from Kent in 1881 and Judith Catherine Harris from Kent in 1891. Very strange.
They lived in Northampton St, Walcot throughout their lives. James died in 1866 and Judith in 1896.
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The kent could remotely be a misinterpretation of kentchurch in herefordshire,this being connected to the Scudamore family, also a john harris, born 1753 whose father was steward of the herefordshire Hampton court, was a respected land surveyor, surveying amongst others for hereford and gloucester dioceseswho owned considerable amounts of land in both counties. Pure speculation, but the harrises in the site mentioned by redmike seem to be more literate and adventurous than the average ag lab.
Plear dont let my random thoughts influence you, just speculation :) :) :)
mike
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Speculation maybe, but useful all the same.
Especially the part about the Harris who was a steward, as this is the very occupation James' second son George favoured!
James was a Hostler, Coachman and latly a Dairyman, but generally called himself a servant in censuses.
My ancestor George was a Butler by the age of 23 (Bath), a ships steward (Southampton), restaurant waiter (for a few months in London), dairyman & assurance salesman (briefly back in Somerset), valet (London)!
I would certainly be interested in exploring those Harris' further, if you have a link please. I find the Ewyas Lacy site rather difficult to navigate.
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Sorry I dont have a link to the harrises, just a passing reference in a book on old hereford mapmakers, no more than I mentioned before.
Why do I think he was the second or third son with no chance of inheriting the family farm,went off to make a new life for himself.
regards mike
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Ok, thanks.
I think you're probably right about James being a younger son. Or maybe he was just not interested in that lifestyle, passing it onto a brother insread?
When James died his eldest son William James was a staymaker in London. His second son George (my ancestor) who had been a Butler in 1861, took over James' dairy business, but soon left for Southampton, and it instead fell to the next surviving son, Henry, who worked the business for the rest of his life.
I just wish I could find James' baptism! :(
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Hi, more speculation,
familysearch has a henry harris christened in peterchurch in august 1800,
parents james and mary.
the date is a good match for your james and your james also named one of his children henry, this is a coincidence too strong to ignore, it has to be worth trying to elininate this henry born 1800 somehow, just in case of a mistranscription.
there must surely be some family connection at least
mike
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Thanks Mike, I have a list of all Harris' from Peterchurch copied down from the parish records, as my other Harris branch came from there, but I can't get to them at the moment as they're packed away from our recent move! ::)
A quick look at the census throw up a couple of possible candidates for Henry living in Gloucestershire in 1841, but can't be sure where they were born.
A complete list of James & Judith's children:
William James 1836 (moved to London)
George Harris 1838 (my ancestor)
Thomas Harris 1840 (not found since 1851 census)
Eliza Harris 1843 (married Thomas Hahhry of Abergavenny & moved there)
Henry Harris 1845 (stayed in Bath)
Edwin 1847 (not found after 1861 census)
Frederick Alfred 1849 (moved briefly but returned to Bath)
Catherine 1851 (married Caleb Stacey & died in childbirth)
Christiana Jane 1853 (married Henry Fisher & moved to Bristol)
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it really is difficult is,nt it. Other than the slight possibility that eliza,s marriage is a link to abergavenny and judith, the male names are common to most hereford Harrises
have you noticed the will on the lhs site for thomas harris who was definitely a farmer in Michaelchurch Escley, the only harris I can find who lived in this very remote hamlet, otherwise you seem to have much more info than i can find, good luck with your search :) :) :)
mike
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No I haven't!
What/where's the lhs site?
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sorry i waqs a bit rushed, thats the link redmike gave you in reply 2, in search options i put in both thomas and harris, I think the will is on page 2 of results
mike
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Thanks Mike. I've had a look and it looks like this Thomas was born about 1781, too young (probably) to be James father, and too old (probably) to be his brother!!! Story of my life, sigh! But stored for future reference, just in case!
I really apprediate you taking the time to help me. Thanks.
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OK a couple of long shots then I will leave you in peace :) :)
I looked on familysearch for james,s in hereford 1800 1801 born to unmarried mothers in the m,chrchescley area, then went on to look for all married couples with harris as a father baptising in the same area from 1800 -1815.
ann penry registered a james in dorstone (3 miles from peterchurch)
later william harris and ann ? had at least one child in eywas harold
but strangely with the prefix escley attached.
jane gilbert had a james in clodock in jan 1801 later henry harris and jane ? went on to have william, george jane elizabeth and more in clodock.
does my logic make sense, james was born out of wedlock but his mum went on to marry his father and james then became a Harris.
my head is reeling with this :) :) :)
might be worth pursuing when you have the time
mike
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Thank you!!
That would indeed be one of the most logical solutions wouldn't it, and I can't think why I didn't think of it! ::)
Will explore that avenue, and fingers crossed you've cracked it. :)
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Darn it!
I located 12 contenders within a 10 mile radius of Michaelchurch Escley, and the only one who married a Harris was the Jane Gilbert you found, in Clodock.
But her James was found in the 1841 census in Wales, thus ruling him out again!
*bangs head against this brick wall*
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well it might have worked :) :) :) :) I am out of any more ideas, unless "james" and "judith" wanted to hide themselves.
I can only say that "james" must have had knowledge of Michaelchurch escley, its a remote hamlet in a remote part of herefordshire, not a name you could dream up or invent, from 70 miles away in Bath. I need a satnav to find it today and I dont live that far away.
I still think he was brought up there, if not actually born there.
regards mike
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That James and Judith are pseudonyms is possible, but I would have thought moving to Bath would have provided enough anonimity in itself!
Some of my other Somerset families had daughters who went into service in Bath, and I wonder if that's what brought Judith there.
James must have had some agricultural experience, at least in workng with horses and cattle.
As he was an Ostler and a coachman in the late 1830s I wonder if it was that which brought him to Bath, where he was then impacted by the arrival of the train in the 1840s, which put coachmen out of work.
I'll do the same exercise, again maybe spreading the net wider and maybe within a range of Peterchurch, as he did also give that as his birthplace in one of the censuses.
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the welsh border is not far away, a trip to the market town of Hay would be easy, lots of pubs with a bad reputation in Hay (well two ) :D :D :D :D
mike
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Just wondering if any of the posters are still on the case?
My DNA is attached to William Cecil - Lord Burghley and the names Gilbert, Harris, Parry and Howells from the Shires of Hereford,Brecon, Gloucester and Monmouth. The places of Michaelchurch esckley, Vowchurch, Clodock, Walterstone, Alt yr ynus, Ganarew are implicated.
Cheers and stay safe
Jack Gee
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Just wondering if any of the posters are still on the case?
My DNA is attached to William Cecil - Lord Burghley and the names Gilbert, Harris, Parry and Howells from the Shires of Hereford,Brecon, Gloucester and Monmouth. The places of Michaelchurch esckley, Vowchurch, Clodock, Walterstone, Alt yr ynus, Ganarew are implicated.
Cheers and stay safe
Jack Gee
Hi Jack,
I am indeed! I have still got no further since although a DNA match to another of James' sons looks interesting, as he disappeared after the age of 13. I don't think it's him *there were 2 born within a few years of each other), but got quite excited at the possibility of him being a cousin and their father's being brothers, especially as they were both living in the same village when they married and both gave their firstborn sons the same name, within a couple of months of each other.
So now I'm also looking for a William Harris born ca 1810, but who inconveniently died pre-1851 (not born in Somerset!), and possibly a Sarah Harris born around the same time who's husband was a witness to William's marriage and he at hers. Annoyingly she gives her place of birth as Freshford in Somerset!
Particularly frustrating is that the William Harris (son of Henry Harris & Jane Gilbert) seems to be alive and kicking in Herefordshire at the same time, thus ruling him out. :(
Is your DNA on the Big Site? I keep checking but fear the key to this puzzle lies in the smaller segments of DNA which they've now removed! :(
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Hi Britgirl,
thanks for your prompt reply.
My DNA is on FTDNA under the William Cecil Lord Burghley Project.
To get a comparison they will need the DNA from a male Harris.
This is the link.
https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/cecil-cissell/about/background
Cheers
Jack Gee
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Hi Britgirl,
thanks for your prompt reply.
My DNA is on FTDNA under the William Cecil Lord Burghley Project.
To get a comparison they will need the DNA from a male Harris.
This is the link.
https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/cecil-cissell/about/background
Cheers
Jack Gee
My dad did a discounted Y-DNA test with FTDNA about 7 years ago at a genealogy convention, but to be honest I rarely check back there as it came back as just a string of data and ancestral paths and a match with a Hispanic sounding name!
Just had another look and there are 4 matches there now - 3 of which are Hispanic and the 4th with a Hispanic name as his earliest ancestor!
Seeing as I'm stuck in Somerset & the Welsh border they've been of little interest or use to me!
Would be good to connect with William Cecil though! My Dad is good with money - does that count?! ;D