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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => London and Middlesex => Topic started by: ian-nz on Wednesday 04 July 12 04:00 BST (UK)
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I am hoping someone can answer this question for me please.
My GGGGrandparents Thomas Silvester and Sarah Atkin had three children.
Charles William Silvester baptised 26 May 1816 in Bethnal Green
Sarah Elizabeth Silvester baptised 28 February 1819 in Bethnal Green
Thomas Silvester baptised 3 August 1825 in St Botolph Without Algate
Thomas is my GGGrandfather and I have all the information I need on him. Charles and Sarah I cannot find any trace of in any of the census so think they died young. I have found two deaths on the Non-Conformist Record Index for a burial for Sarah Sylvester on the 19 November 1819 in Bethnal Green and Charles Selvester on the 5 January 1825 at Clerkenwell. No ages given.
What I am hoping someone can answer for me is if a child was from a family of the Non-Conformist faith would they have been baptised?
Pauline
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Hi Pauline
Have you checked the actual parish register to see exactly what it says? I know that Church of Scotland Parishes were supposed to record events of other faiths that took place within the Parish, I have a couple of relatives baptised United Presbyterian that were recorded in the Parish Registers as well, and I think the Church of England was also supposed to do that at one stage.
Andy
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If my memory serves me right (and it doesn't very often these days) Jews and Quakers were able to keep their own records and were not forced to use the Church of England for baptisms etc.
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There are several different types of non-conformist. My family were Methodist. In the period before Methodist churches were sufficiently established to do baptisms I have found their baptisms in various places. Some in the parish church appearing in the normal register. some appearing in a register of Dissenters. Some in the nearest Presbyterian church.
Just means you may have to widen your search both in terms of denomination and geographically.
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If my memory serves me right (and it doesn't very often these days) Jews and Quakers were able to keep their own records and were not forced to use the Church of England for baptisms etc.
Certainly until 1898 only Church of England, Jewish and Quaker marriages were recognised which is why non-conformists such as Catholic marriages are recorded as Civil Marriages after July 1837, but non-conformists could certainly conduct their own baptisms.
Where ther is a puzzle such as in this topic it is best to look at the original registers to see exactly what they say.
Andy
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Thank you all for your replies.
So it is possible these two deaths are my Charles and Sarah. I just need to search further.
Tomorrow I will order some credits a look at the original records.
Will let you know if I find any further information.
Pauline
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What I am hoping someone can answer for me is if a child was from a family of the Non-Conformist faith would they have been baptised?
Baptism wasn't and isn't compulsory in any of the branches of the Christian church; as now, families would have decided whether or not, and when, to have a child baptised. But in the past, a non baptised person wouldn't have been buried inside the churchyard, and that was enough then to ensure baptism !
But strict non-conformist familes, and their churches, had different options to the C of E, and you really need to do more searching fo the records.
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The various non-conformist denominations had different views about baptism. This varies from the Quakers who did not believe in physical baptism, through the baptists who believed baptism should be of adults, to the methodists, congregationals and others whose practices were much closer to those of the Church of England and Roman Catholics.
Incidently all of these belong to the Christian Faith and are just different denominations that reflect variations in their beliefs. They are not different faiths.
In the early 19th century and before the poor laws required proven affiliation to a parish and this mitigated towards even non-conformists having their children baptised in the parish church. That said, you will find many other denominations having records of baptisms going back a number of centuries.
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If my memory serves me right (and it doesn't very often these days) Jews and Quakers were able to keep their own records and were not forced to use the Church of England for baptisms etc.
Certainly until 1898 only Church of England, Jewish and Quaker marriages were recognised which is why non-conformists such as Catholic marriages are recorded as Civil Marriages after July 1837, but non-conformists could certainly conduct their own baptisms.
Where ther is a puzzle such as in this topic it is best to look at the original registers to see exactly what they say.
This is not correctly expressed. In 1837 civil marriages were introduced, and it also became legal to be married in RC and Non-Conformist churches - but these marriages took place after civil preliminaries and were registered by a civil registrar (although the couple were married by the priest/minister). in 1898 these churches were allowed (if they wished) to have their own "registrars" called Appointed Persons to register the marriages, look after the registers etc. This arrangement still applies, but some marriages continue to be registered (not conducted) in church/other places of worship by civil registrars. They are still valid 'religious' marriages.
Melbell.
Andy
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Sorry - I've somehow got my reply muddled up with Andy's quote.
Apologies for the confusion.
Melbell.
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I have found various ancestors in London, and particularly in the area around the East End, had their children baptised in a CofE church but buried them in a non-conformist burial ground. I don't think this necessarily had anything to do with religious beliefs, it's quite possible that the burial fees were lower than for CofE burials and thus were used for this reason.
I also have some families that intermittently used non-conformist chapels to baptise children when the previous and subsequent child was baptised in the local CofE, this could be for financial reasons if the fees were lower of simply they couldn't get them baptised in the CofE church when they wanted to.
It's quite likely these burials are yours but you would need to check the possibilty they related to other families of the same name. Unfortunately many non-conformist burial grounds in that area did not list ages on burials even after 1813 when the CofE parishes were following the change in style of registers.
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There should be NO charge whatsoever for baptism !! Not in the C of E anyway !
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Hi
The up keep of non-conformist burial grounds in central London in the early C19th were beyond the resources of many of their chapels and they could be sold to private speculators who used them as money making cemeteries, others fell into disrepair.
One of the burial grounds bought by a private speculator was Spa Fields which was acquired as a private cemetery and where it is estimated 80,000 burials took place (40 a day)
A description of Spa Fields.
http://www.burial.magic-nation.co.uk/bgclerkenwell.htm
One of the burials you list was at this burial ground.
With land for burials at a premium in London it wasn't just private speculators who cashed in, the scandal of the Enon Baptist chapel forced the passing of the Burial Act in 1852 which began the closure of most central London churchyards and burial grounds as they had increasingly become health hazards. Burials switched to the new large civic cemeteries.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enon_Chapel
Survival rates for the records of these non-conformist/privately owned burial grounds is much poorer. Not all non-conformist burial grounds were open to burials from the surrounding local population who were not part of the church congregation.
The website London Burial Grounds gives further information on the churchyards and burial grounds in each area of central London.
http://www.londonburials.co.uk/
Regards
Valda
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There should be NO charge whatsoever for baptism !! Not in the C of E anyway !
It would be that many did prior to the 1872 Act of Parliament - see http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1872/36/pdfs/ukpga_18720036_en.pdf
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Well I never knew that ! Thanks for that document.
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From the 'Order for Funerals at Gibraltar Row Protestant Dissenters Burial Ground'
Sarah Sylvester [sic]
Date of burial - 19 November 1819
Place of burial - Bethnal Green
Age - 16 months
From the 'Register of Burials at the Countess of Huntingdon's Chapel in the Parish of St James Clerkenwell, Spa Fields'
Charles Selvester [sic]
Date of burial 5 January 1825
Parish of Abode - St Andrews Holborn
Age 26 years
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Thank you all for the information you have found me. It was very interesting reading about all the horrible things that went on in the 1800's. I am glad I wasn't around then.
Thank you also Captain2 for the info on Sarah Silvester. The age of 16 months is what I was after. My little Sarah was born on the 29 July 1818 baptised on the 28th February 1819 and buried of the 19 November 1819 so she would have been almost 16 months old when she died so I am pretty sure I have the correct one.
Charles Selvester's age is not right so I shall continue my search for him.
Thank you all once again for your help. You are amazing.
Pauline
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Further to my comments about RC and Non-Conformist marriages - please note: 'Appointed Persons' should read 'Authorized Persons'.
Melbell.
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I did have a look for Charles but nothing I'm afraid. Yes I think that is possibly your Sarah given the abode - Bethnal Green - and the age - seems to fit with what you are looking for. That was again very sad reading - the Order for Funerals were all for children ... a very sad sign of those times...