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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: paulineeldridge on Monday 02 July 12 16:56 BST (UK)
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Could anyone help with a look up please. Her British passport states that she - Pamela TATE was born in New South Wales on 9th January 1917. We believe her father was a Captain Henry Tate and the mother's name was Dorothy. We would love to know the maiden name of the mother to help us in our research. Any more information would be welcome e.g. regiment that Father served in!
Many thanks
Pauline Eldridge
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Henry TATE marriages in NSW
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0ocw/
but the only TATE marriage with mother Dorothy.
9039/1914
TATE John C
CARDWELL Dorothy
District Marrickville
You can search here for WW1 service records
http://www.naa.gov.au/collection/using/search/
Some chatters have resources with births to 1918 in NSW. Hopefully one of them will search for you. It may be helpful if you modify your topic heading to include the year 1917 in NSW
Cheers
Cando
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Hi!
I checked NSW up to 1918 and there is nothing showing for a Pamela or Pam Tate.
Mariona.
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Mariona any TATE births at all with mother Dorothy?
Cheers
Cando
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Or just a birth for a Pamela with mother Dorothy :)
I can see no WW1 service record for a Capt Henry TATE...but I often miss records on NAA.
Cando
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Tate births with mother Dorothy
Dorothy I born 1914 to John C and Dorothy at Marrickville
Gladys 1915 to Cecil and Dorothy Marrickville
John A 1916 to John C and Dorothy Marrickville
Sidney L 1917 to John C and Dorothy Newtown
Birth for a Pamela mother Dorothy
Pamela Smith 1908 to Cecil/Dorothy at Cargo
Not much help i'm afraid
Mariona
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Thanks Mariona.
Pauline do you have any other information about Pamela? Occupation? When did she travel to the UK?
Cando
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I can only see one Henry/TATE name combination for each of the two wars. WW1 is James Henry TATE born c1885, his wife was Rose Victoria. WW2 is Henry George TATE, born 1895 in London, next of kin is Louise TATE.
http://deepthought.hass.adfa.edu.au:8080/index.html
http://www.ww2roll.gov.au/NameSearch.aspx
Debra :)
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Checking TAIT instead, for WW1 there is also a Henry Frederick Lamb TAIT born c1885 whose father was Henry TAIT, Kirkwhilpington, Newcastle-on-Tyne, England.
Debra :)
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What date was her BRITISH passport issued?
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May I ask
HOW recent is this passport? Is it possible it is issued decades ago back when Australians were issued British Passports? What colour is the cover? What status is shown for the holder? Could it be her maiden or her married surname? Is the holder no longer living?
Cheers JM
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Hi
Searching for a birth based on the passport information is probably not going to find it. Did Pamela Tate marry, who is listed as her mother and father on that?
Henry Tate could easily have been John Henry. Her age could be wrong too, we may be looking for the wrong year.
There are 35 Pamela's with mother Dorothy between 1889 and 1918, but if she was younger than shown, her birth may have been after 1918.
I think we need more info on Pamela.
mum mum
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Do we have 'Captain' in our forces?
Could have been the captain of a ship in the Merchant navy.
Jamjar
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No Pamela's married up to 1950 in NSW.
Jamjar
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Thank you all for your help! As a result of your replies I contacted someone in the family who might, I thought, have her marriage certificate. Once found, lo and behold although she was always known as Pamela, and that is the name on her passport, when she married she gave her name as Dot (so probably Dorothy) Tate. The mystery deepens still further since she gave her age on marriage in 1936 as 23 which suggests she was born in 1913, yet her passport gives the birth date 9 Jan1916 in New South Wales. The family story is that she was born under canvas somewhere in the outback! Although the father was always known as Henry Tate on the marriage certificate he is listed as Richard Henry Tate. He was deceased by the time of her marriage (1936) and his profession given as Captain Royal Welch Fusiliers. Sorry to have mislead you with the wrong names! Does any of this help?
Pauline
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Sorry - should have added she was married in the UK, so returned here sometime before 1936.
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When you have a moment, please answer some of my questions about the passport.
May I ask
HOW recent is this passport? Is it possible it is issued decades ago back when Australians were issued British Passports? What colour is the cover? Is the holder no longer living?
Cheers JM
So we are looking for a NSW birth registered outside of Metro Sydney, for a Dot (orthy) born 1913, or 6 Jan 1916 or 6 Jan 1917.... born west of the Great Dividing Range, perhaps further west, perhaps in the Western Division. So 1916 or 1917 is during WWI, and unless the Captain was retired, there would be no need for any Royal Welch Fusiliers in NSW.
Fingers crossed,
Cheers, JM.
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Will need to check the date on the passport again, but definitely the old style British passport with the black cover and the crest on the front! It was issued in the name of her second marriage Pamela Bell.
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I don't see any trace of (Richard) Henry Tate, a captain in the Royal Welch Fusiliers.
Of course he could be "Richard Henry" but not surnamed Tate.
Did she give consistent information about her father on the first and second marriages?
Who were the witnesses to the 1936 marriage? (her mother may be on as a witness, perhaps under another surname if she'd remarried).
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So, this would be her first marriage in 1936?
TATE Dot m. SMITH Lewis E Dec 1936 Marylebone 1a/1499
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.....Although the father was always known as Henry Tate on the marriage certificate he is listed as Richard Henry Tate. He was deceased by the time of her marriage (1936) and his profession given as Captain Royal Welch Fusiliers.....
Pauline
What was her mother's name on the marriage certificate please?
What was the given name of her second husband?
Only death I can see from 1913 -1936 in NSW
20171/1924
TATE Henry
Father George Mother Elizabeth
District Barraba
Cando
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Merlin if you have the births to 1918 in NSW could you check for her birth as Dorothy please?
Cando
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Apart from what Mariona found earlier there is this one:
TATE Doris b.1913 TENTERFIELD #19564
Parents: Fred G & Sarah R
About all I can do now is search for every Dorothy born 1912-1918 without a surname :-\
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Yes, I have that one.
What I have also done this morning is sent for the marriage certificate of her Mother Dorothy. Her Mother was also married twice and I have now found the registration details for the second marriage. Once I get that certificate from the GRO that will hopefully give details of her Father, then I will know the maiden name!! Then hopefully I can find her first marriage to Richard Henry Tate and get hold of that certificate to get his Father's details. A longer way around but hopefully it will work. Thanks for your help!
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Thanks Merlin. Perhaps Dot wasn't her registered name anyway.
Did her mother marry twice in the UK?
Cando
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Can you give us all the details that you do have or know for her mother please?
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I was about to make the same request.
Could you also give the year that Dot [Pamela] married a BELL.
Cando
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Very little, except that her name was Dorothy and that her first marriage was to Richard Henry Tate. They had just one daughter - Pamela aka Dot (Dorothy). I hope to get further details from her second marriage certificate and I will let you have these.
Pamela's 2nd marriage was to James Bell - 1967 Bromley, Kent
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Who was her mother's second husband?
Do you have the marriage details for the first one to Richard Henry TATE?
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The Mother's second husband was Cecil Petley - married 1919 Eastry, Kent.
I only found and applied for the certificate for this second marriage this morning - it will take 4-5 days to arrive. As I said I am hoping that this will provide details of the father of Dorothy (the mother) who married Richard Henry Tate. With her maiden name I stand more chance of finding their marriage - here or in Australia!
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So you don't know if she actually married a Richard Henry TATE & you haven't found his death?
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So now we learn that Dorothy is Dorothy E
Marriages Dec 1919
PETLEY Cecil C Eastry 2a/2988
TATE Dorothy E Eastry 2a/2988
Cando
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Assume she did - Dorothy Tate on her second marriage. Could be Dorothy Eleana (from death certificate)
Have no further details of Richard Henry other than his occupation - Welch Fusilier
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Death
PETLEY Dorothy Eleana
Birth Date 25 May 1891
Dec qtr 1982 91 years Hastings & Rother, Sussex 18/0834
Cando
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May I please ask when did the passport holder die?
Cheers JM
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I found under WW1 service files, attestation papers for a Henry TATE in the Royal Welch Fusiliers but he was a private and some of the first page of the three pages is missing. The papers were dated 1896 and Henry was aged 20 years ? months...comment was 'appeared 21' so possibly born 1875 and stated at St Andrew Holborn, London. Dorothy E was born 1891 and that is a bit of an age gap so perhaps not the right person.
Dorothy E PETLEY was the only PETLEY enrolled to vote in 1953 at 20 Albert Court, Prince Consort Road, London.
Death
PETLEY Cecil C 66 years
Dec 1951 Dover, Kent 5b/511
A census entry for Cecil has been corrected so someone else has or is researching this family.
I haven't been successful in finding a TATE arrival in the UK that appears to be Dorothy with a dau between 1913 and 1919 when she married Cecil.
I hope the marriage cert has some useful information.
Pauline are you related or simply helping someone with this research?
Cheers
Cando
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A census entry for Cecil has been corrected so someone else has or is researching this family.
Cheers
Cando
That was me ;D
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A census entry for Cecil has been corrected so someone else has or is researching this family.
Cheers
Cando
That was me ;D
And ....... :-[ :-[
It nearly was me, but I noticed someone had already been there ! ;D ;D ;D
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I was interested to see that Cecil was born in Ash, and did not stray from there. His marriage reg. may indicate that he was also married there in 1919. Wondering if Dorothy also had connections there, it is a very small village.
Debra :)
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A census entry for Cecil has been corrected so someone else has or is researching this family.
Cheers
Cando
That was me ;D
Sorry, I should say the 1911 was me, not the other two!!
Debra :)
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May I please ask when did the passport holder die?
Cheers JM
Hi there Pauline,
I notice you have been back online since I re-asked this question. Would you please answer this significant question.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,368728.0.html and part of #2
" RootsChat - Our Policy on Living Persons.
Here on RootsChat we are very concerned that the privacy and security of the living is protected. For this reason we do not allow searches for living persons. Although we fully understand you would like recent information to add to your tree, or that you may wish to make contact with birth families, relatives you lost contact with when they immigrated to Australia, missing family or friends, we are afraid we are unable to assist you.
We are very sorry for the inconvenience this causes you but we are sure you will appreciate the reasons for this.
Please See:- http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,142443.0.html "
Cheers, JM
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Thanks again for your help. We understand your concern. We have now found Pamela's death record. She died in 1990 in Hastings, Sussex. Her name then was Pamela Farmen. She married for the third time in 1978. Interestingly on the deather certificate her date of birth is given as 9 Jan 1913, not 9 Jan 1916 as stated in her passport. Her son remembers that she had difficulty in obtaining a passport because she did not have a birth certificate. It is for her son that I am doing this research. A big thank you for all your help from John, the son!
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Thank you.
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I wonder why Pamela didn't seek her birth certificate in 1954?
I wonder if the details on this marriage cert would help
Marriage
BELL Pamela
FARMAN Wm H
Sept qtr 1978 Hastings/Rother 18/0666
Death
FARMAN Pamela
Birth Date 9 Jan 1913
Aug 1990 77 years Hastings and Rother, East Sussex 18/862
Perhaps we can help further once you have her mother's marriage cert with her maiden name.
I can't see a Dorothy TATE b. 1891 on the UK incoming passenger lists from Australia between 1913 and 1919.
Cheers
Cando
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Thank you both so much. Will be in touch once I have the marriage certificate.
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Hi there,
May I presume you have previously eliminated:
Lt. H. TATE aged 30, (RNR) his wife (Mrs E Tate) aged 32 and Miss Tate, an infant aged 2 on the KASHGAR into London in June 1916. Last permanent residence, Gilbraltar. The ship had commenced that voyage in Sydney NSW, Australia, and I think that TATE family boarded at Gilbraltar.
Cheers, JM
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Yes I saw that JM but as they boarded in Gilbratar perhaps the country where the voyage commenced is irrelevant.
Mrs E aged 32 was born c1884 and Pamela's mother, Dorothy Eleana was born c1891.
The infant's name is difficult to read Miss May or Amy perhaps.
I read her husband's name as Lt Thos H.
I don't think it is them.
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Hi there. I have the marriage certificate back from the GRO. It shows that the second marriage was of Dorothy Eleanor Tate to Cecil Clive Petley. The marriage took place on Oct 16 1919, so we now know that she returned to the UK between Pamela's birth in 1913 and 1919. I have also learned that Pamela was also sometimes called Dot. On the marriage certificate Dorothy is described as a widow so perhaps Capt Richard Henry Tate died in Australia between 1913 and 1919.
The marriage took place in Deal in Kent. Dorothy's father's name is Charles Randall (occupation Farmer) so we can assume this was her maiden name. Only just started by search but so far no luck. Her age at marriage was 26 so we are looking at a birth between 1891 (on death certificate) and 1893 (marriage certificate). I'll keep searching at this end - for her birth and travel to Australia
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Hi there,
I have checked my copies of the 1913 NSW Electoral Roll for
“Randall Dorothy”
“Randall Eleanor”
“Tate Dorothy”
“Tate Eleanor”
…. Nothing….
If she was in NSW at that time, then perhaps she was not yet old enough to vote, or perhaps she had decided not to enrol as enrolment was not yet compulsory.
My rolls are noted as NSW Electoral Rolls, and make no mention of Federal/Commonwealth in their headings : NSW elections 6 December 1913, while there were Federal Elections 24 May 1913.
Have you compared the birth information on the UK passport with the information on Pamela’s various UK GRO Certs?
Have you located Dorothy as a child with her parents in the UK?
Cheers JM
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I can't find a Dorothy RANDALL with father Charles on the 1891 or 1901 UK census. I can't find a TATE/RANDALL marriage on freebdm.
I am also wondering why a Welch Fusilier would be in Australia during WW1.
I did find a Dorothy RANDALL born c1890 Islington, London, on the 1891 census with mother Annie RANDALL 25 years Single Living on own means born Clerkenwell, ?Weymouth and brother George T, 2 years, born London, Fulham.
This may be the birth
Births Mar 1890
RANDALL Dorothy Islington 1b/401
Of course this is speculative research ;D
Cando
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Perhaps someone can check FindMyPast for any extra info on three women who travelled from the UK to Western Australia on the Ceramic in 1914.
Dorothy E., 24, Edith, 26, and Kate, 30, all with the surname RANDALL.
On arrival at Albany in June 1914 they were described as spinsters, but there is no indication of their relationship to each other.
In September 1914 Misses E. and K. RANDALL travelled from Fremantle to Melbourne.
In March 1915 Miss D.E. RANDALL travelled from Fremantle to Melbourne.
In April 1915 Miss D.E. RANDALL travelled from Melbourne to Fremantle.
Debra :)
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Hi there,
I am concerned that perhaps the information on that passport has flaws in it regarding Pamela's birth place.... Does it read :
NSW
NS Wales (this was a former way to write New South Wales, but has not been regularly used since it caused confusion during WWI between those born in Wales, UK and those born in New South Wales, Australia)
NSW Australia
I can see a Sydney NSW marriage in 1910 for an Eleanor D RANDELL and a Charles W SLOMAN (#11113) However, I cannot get from SLOMAN to TATE ::) And I can see an NSW birth for that couple, registered at Bathurst (Charles W and Aealenor D). However, I am quite sure that various branches of the Sloman family were also located further west than Bathurst, although I am not sure if they would have been 'under canvas' in the Western Divisions of NSW. Perhaps as Pamela was born in January, if born in Australia, then she may have been 'under canvas' when outdoors during the first few months after her birth although most western division NSW homes were well ventilated with long halls running from front to back and from side to side. I cannot find a likely death to 1919 for that Eleanor's groom, and I have not looked for any UK enlistment for him either. I cannot find him at the WWI nominal roll
http://www.awm.gov.au/research/people/nominal_rolls/first_world_war/
Perhaps there's a kind RChatter with access to NSW BDM indexes to 1918 that can easily check for SLOMAN births to 1918?
Of course this is all very very speculative, and most likely it is simply a red herring. If our OP were to obtain a transcript of that 1910 marriage for SLOMAN-RANDELL it would give information about the bride, her parentage, her place of birth, age, etc.
I too continue to wonder why a Welch Fusilier was anywhere in the Antipodes during WWI, and wonder why he was not at the Western Front?
MODIFIED to strike through the speculative information. I can clearly see Mr and Mrs Charles SLOMAN on various Electoral Rolls in NSW after the UK marriage that our OP has detailed here.
Hi there. I have the marriage certificate back from the GRO. It shows that the second marriage was of Dorothy Eleanor Tate to Cecil Clive Petley. The marriage took place on Oct 16 1919, so we now know that she returned to the UK between Pamela's birth in 1913 and 1919. I have also learned that Pamela was also sometimes called Dot. On the marriage certificate Dorothy is described as a widow so perhaps Capt Richard Henry Tate died in Australia between 1913 and 1919.
The marriage took place in Deal in Kent. Dorothy's father's name is Charles Randall (occupation Farmer) so we can assume this was her maiden name. Only just started by search but so far no luck. Her age at marriage was 26 so we are looking at a birth between 1891 (on death certificate) and 1893 (marriage certificate). I'll keep searching at this end - for her birth and travel to Australia
Cheers, JM
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I have modified my post (reply # 51) to strike through the information about the 1910 marriage indexed at NSW BDM online. I can clearly find NSW electoral roll information that eliminates that speculative post.
Cheers, JM
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Place of birth in the passport reads New South Wales, Australia. The accuracy of this may be doubtful though since my friend says his mother did not have a birth certificate.
The travel of Miss D.E Randall to Australia in 1914 sounds a promising lead though - certainly the initials and the date are about right. Perhaps she married Richard Henry Tate in Australia. Pamela would never have known her father so his occupation might have been anecdotal. Perhaps he had already left the army?