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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Derry (Londonderry) => Topic started by: urubu76 on Sunday 01 July 12 12:59 BST (UK)
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hi
my grandfather was dawson patrick downing b1869 kilberry downing
he was the second son of james downing ca. 1835-1889 and bridget henery 1848-1905 married 13 jan 1868 lavey
james' father was john downing and bridgets' father was patrick henry of drumard
a brother of james named in will of 1889 was edward downing
also named in will, children of james and bridget; namely
john, dawson, edward, james, henry, bridget, maryann, thomas and sarah
I would be grateful for any information concerning this family particularly ancestors of john downing b.ca 1805
and descendants of james downing b .ca 1835. sarah became sarah morris on her marriage. Another james (possibly son of john b.ca 1868) emigrated to cairns, queensland ca .1930
regards
urubu76
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See that you haven't had any replies to this post but the details in your reply on another thread are slightly different:
my grandfather was patrick dawson downing b. 1869 kilbery downing...
Think this might be the 1889 Will you mentioned? (www.proni.gov.uk)
James Downing died 17 Mar 1889, granted 3 Jul 1897 "The Will of James Downing late of Killyberry Downing County Londonderry Farmer who died 17 March 1889 was proved at Londonderry by Edward Downing of Drumard Farmer the sole Exeecutor."
The Downings are still in Killyberry (Downing) in 1911-
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Londonderry/Bellaghy/Killyberry__Downing_/607745
same family in 1901-
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Londonderry/Bellaghy/Killyberry_Downing/1541386
Marriage of James Downing & Biddy Henry: https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FGZX-KMP
Children:
John (1868) https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/F5W9-MH9
Patrick Dawson (1869) https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FPYJ-8B9
Edward (1871) https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/F579-PQY
James (1873) https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FGR9-4S8
Bridget (1877) https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FGVF-83D
daughter (1870) https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FGJC-2MJ
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Bellaghy R.C. Church records start 1844 for baptisms and marriages.
The Edward Downing that died in 1889 was born c1813 so if the above church is correct you may not be able to find earlier family records-
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FT41-RWR
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many thanks to downing researchers
my quest is to find father of james downing b.1839 of kilyberry downing. . its probably
a john downing b.1790? but i am unsure about this.
Sarah b.1884 and Mary anne downing b.1879 migrated to Barrow in furness ca 1910.Sarah and future husband edward Morris are in 1911 census,hotel Imperial,Barrow (Bridget b.1877 may also have accompanied Mary Anne )
Mary anne b.1879 married Devlin. Their descendants are in Barrow area
to this day.
]f the family is related to Dawson downings they changed religion from COI to RC possibly through marriage.
james hanley
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Hi I am searching for my Great Grandmother and wonder if any of you have come across her?
Her name was Catherine Downing of Killyberry Downing, Co Derry. From the 1901/1911 census I know she was born in 1866, however I can find no records of her birth.
On 21 May 1885 she married Daniel McCann in Bellaghy RC Church in the parish of Ballyscullion. (On her marriage cert however she was named Catherarine Downey - tho I have been informed by an uncle she was Downing).
Catherine and Daniel had 8 children - 6 boys and 2 girls - and in the census they lived in The Creagh Co Derry.
Has anyone came across her - would be amazing to find any of her siblings or her parents names!
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Downing and Downey would just be variations of the same surname but what's her father's name and occupation on the marriage certificate? and Catherine's residence? witnesses' names?
Civil registration of births started in 1864 so if Catherine was slightly older than you suspect there will be no borth certificate. Some early births were not registered but she could have been listed under another Christian name or as a yet unmaed female child. www.familysearch.org has some, not all, extracted Irish births 1864-c1881 but the father's name would help.
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Unfortunately, I have no information on her parents - drawing a complete blank! Got the information of the marriage off Emerald Ancestors which unfortunately doesn't name the parents.
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In that case you need the actual marriage certificate.
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to urubu76,
I see this is over 5 years old, but hope you are still "on the lookout".
We need to talk further.
You mention a James Downing of "Kilberry Downing". He is later than my focus, but I would suggest "Kilberry" is actually Killyberry Rd, which terminates directly across the street from the entrance to Rowesgift House, which was gifted to John Downing on his 1727 marriage to Anne Rowe, by her father, Revd. Simon Rowe, Rector at St. Tida's Church of Ireland, Bellaghy.
John was the 2nd son of Col. Adam Downing of Rocktown, a little further north near Gulladuff.
There were many Downings in the area, including a branch we call the Dreenan Downings, many of whom were RC, that I have not been able to connect to Adam's tree, but am sure there is an unproven connection.
Do not get thrown off by the different spellings. For example, George Downing of Maghera, was (supposedly) the son of George Downinge of Ballykelly (NE of Derry City), and Henry DOWNEY, whom I met and interviewed this past May, told me his grandfather changed the name from DOWNING to DOWNEY. Seeing where he lives in relation to Adam's old "castle", and based on him telling me he was the 7th generation Downing to live on that site, I am convinced there is a connection to the Dreenan branch because he is RC and his parents are buried at St. Mary's, Lavey Parish on the A42 just north of Gulladuff.
I also saw two grave markers in the Lavey Parish yard, both slabs laying flat on the ground.
One was for John Downing, d. 1847, and his wife, Nancy, d. 1861. The other was for Dawson Downing, d. 29 Jan 18?? (the year was difficult to read, but it looked like 1865). I have a Dawson Downing in my tree, buried in the Downing vault at St. Tida's in 1807, so I thought it unusual for such a unique forename to be duplicated. There was a connection to the Dawson family by the marriage of Sarah Downing, dau of the aforementioned John of Rowesgift, to Adm. Charles Dawson in 1760, but my Dawson, Sarah's brother, was born in 1739. Perhaps the families were close before.
John of Rowesgift had another son named (Capt.) John, b. c.1740, who had two sons named John and James, but I have no dates, although I would estimate they were both born about 1765 +/- a few years. The following generation could have included other 'Johns' and/or 'James' and their descendants. Unfortunately, 'John Downings' were a plenty.
Anyway, please reply and we can discuss further.
I suspect your James may have descended from one of my branches and I have a ton of data to share.
Rick
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You mention a James Downing of "Kilberry Downing". He is later than my focus, but I would suggest "Kilberry" is actually Killyberry Rd, which terminates directly across the street from the entrance to Rowesgift House, which was gifted to John Downing on his 1727 marriage to Anne Rowe, by her father, Revd. Simon Rowe, Rector at St. Tida's Church of Ireland, Bellaghy.
Location of Killyberry Downing- Griffith's Valuation and Valuation Revision Books should make it possible to find exact location of property there.
https://www.townlands.ie/londonderry/loughinsholin/ballyscullion/killyberry-downing/
As well as Rowesgift there was also a very old house called Rowan's Gift in Drumlamph townland (about 2 1/2 miles from each other.)
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exactly; Killyberry Downing is bisected by Killyberry Road
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Hi Rick,
Nice to hear from you and I'm pleasantly surprised to find a possible distant Downing kinsman.
re. Downing farm ; It seemed to be approximatly 30 acres, One third was given to Edward Downing,
James' brother who died about 1900. The census of 1901 and 1911 names John Downing and wife Susan and also his daughter Annie born ca 1900.
I believe Annie married Andrew Scullion in 1924 and had some offspring.She is buried in the Belaghy church yard with Andrew and the gravestone appears to be quite new.
Patrick Dawson Downing ,my mothers father was a Nationalist firebrand all of his life. He did not volunteer in 1914, he went out India in 1918, but assaulted one of his Indian workers and was
sent back to UK. He oddly enough said the reverse of your Downing /Downey story and maintained
that the name was changed to Downing to appear more 'English,'
I'm not sure how to get in touch with you,you can contact me on facebook under Jaimie Hanley
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Hi Jaimie,
I have searched FB, picked the most likely from a list, and sent you a message via Facebook.
Please reply to confirm, or deny, and I'll send you my email so we can further the discoveries.
Rick T
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Hi Jaimie,
I messaged the only result on Facebook by your spelling, who appeared to be a Brit and I figured I had the right individual, but he responded last night saying "wrong guy", so perhaps the next best thing is to give you my email right here
(*) Moderator Comment: e-mail removed in accordance with RootsChat policy,
to avoid spamming and other abuses.
Please use the Personal Message (PM) system for exchanging personal data.
I suspect your John, b. c.1805 may have been the son of one of two brothers, John or James Downing, the two known sons of Capt. John Downing, b. c.1740. Capt. John and his older brother, Dawson, signed the deed to Rowesgift House on 10 Oct 1785, one month before their father died. Rowesgift is just up the street from the Townland of Killyberry Downing.
I estimate that Capt. John's sons were both born about 1765, give or take a few years. It's quite likely that they both stayed near Rowesgift, settling at Killyberry.
Additionally, the fact that your John (b. c.1805) named a son James and James had sons he named John, DAWSON, and James, makes it virtually certain that your branch is connected to Capt. John and much more above him, which I have extensive data on.
Please drop me an email and we can proceed from there.
Have a good day,
Rick
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I see this is 5 years old, and hopefully, you have discovered new info since, but just in case . . .
this is in reply to Reply # 5 , dated 12 Dec 2013, by julesmc.
You mention that Catherine McCann, as shown in the 1901 Census, was b. 1866, assuming her reported age was accurate (often NOT the case), was supposedly Catherine Downey, formerly Downing.
Another respondent commented that the spellings were interchangeable, which is true to some degree. However, it is quite possible that your Catherine was a sister of Henry DOWNEY of Drumard.
Also on the 1901 Census, you can find a family group headed by Henry DOWNING.
Henry is listed with his wife, Teresa, 3 sons, and 4 daughters, ranging in age from 11 to 2.
The eldest daughter was named Catherine, age 10, so she would have been born about 1891.
It's possible, and with a fairly high degree of probability, that if her maiden name was DOWNEY, she could very well have been a sister of Henry DOWNING of Drumard, keeping in mind that the total population of this area is rather sparse. Henry reported his age as 43, so if he was truthful, he would have been born about 1858. It was common for the Irish to honor forefathers and siblings in naming their own children. It's possible Henry named his first daughter in honor of his sister, your Catherine, b. 1866.
Another clue is that, Henry changed the spelling of the family name to DOWNEY from DOWNING, sometime between the 1901 and 1911 Census. The same family group is listed under DOWNEY in 1911. By that time, Catherine was married to McCann, but she would have been associated with Henry's spelling change.
I have a lot of data on the DOWNING/DOWNEY branches further back, but would like to fill in some blanks in the 1800's. Willing to share.
Hope this helps,
Rick
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The eldest daughter was named Catherine, age 10, so she would have been born about 1891.
For reference-
Catherine born in 1891.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1891/02403/1896286.pdf
KG
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Also on the 1901 Census, you can find a family group headed by Henry DOWNING.
Henry is listed with his wife, Teresa, 3 sons, and 4 daughters, ranging in age from 11 to 2.
The eldest daughter was named Catherine, age 10, so she would have been born about 1891.
Catherine Downing born 1891- mother Terresa McErlain-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1891/02403/1896286.pdf
It's possible Henry named his first daughter in honor of his sister, your Catherine, b. 1866
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Usual, but not always followed, naming pattern was first daughter after mother's mother, seconf after father's mother, etc.
You mention that Catherine McCann, as shown in the 1901 Census, was b. 1866, assuming her reported age was accurate (often NOT the case), was supposedly Catherine Downey, formerly Downing.
Daniel McCann married 1885 Catherine Downey of Leitrim townland, daughter of David Downey-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1885/10866/5968087.pdf
Not sure why reply #5 wonders who Catherine's parents were since her father's name at least is clearly recorded.
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Thanks Aghadowey,
I think that settles it. Catherine McCann was NOT Catherine Downing, but more importantly, for me, I did not have the maiden name (McErlain) of Terresa previously, so I get to fill in a blank there and learn of an older sister of Henry Downing of Drumard, b. 1897
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Just to be clear, my previous suggestion was that Catherine DOWNEY/Downing, who married Daniel McCann in 1885, may have been a sister of Henry DOWNING of Drumard, referred to Henry who married Terresa McErlain, not his son , Henry, b. 1897.
Aghadowey's last link shows the baptism of Catherine DOWNING, dau. of Henry & Terresa, bp. 1891, who obviously was not alive when Catherine DOWNEY married McCann.
I'm assuming Cathering DOWNEY, dau of Daniel DOWNEY of Leitrim, was Leitrim Townland in the Parish of Ballyscullion, Co. Londonderry, which borders the Townland of Killyberry Downing, just east of Castledawson.,
This also represents evidence that there MAY have been an earlier DOWNING who changed the spelling to DOWNEY, Daniel. Presumably Catherine, b. 1866 (?) may have been referred to as a DOWNEY, or DOWNING, if her father changed the spelling AFTER she was baptized (a DOWNING).
Nevertheless, we KNOW Henry DOWNEY, b. c.1858, husband of Terresa, changed the spelling from DOWNING to DOWNEY after the 1901 census.
And could there be a connection between Henry and Daniel ?
Henry, b. c.1858, had a son, Henry, b. 1897, and a grandson, Henry, B. c.1928
It's also interesting that Leitrim is adjacent to Killybery Downing, where there was a John Downing and a James Downing (see earlier comments on this thread along with 1831 & 1901 census), perhaps descendants of John Downing of Rowesgift.
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uburu;
in your Reply # 3 you say you think the father of James (1839, or 1835 ?) may have been named 'John'
Looking at the 1831 Census, I might suggest his father was also named JAMES, not 'John'.
see Bill Macafees 1831 Census at:
http://www.billmacafee.com/1831census/1831derrycensusnames.pdf
Rec. No. 17745 - Jas. Downing of Killyberry, lived in House # 1 with 3 males + 3 females, and was Roman Catholic.
This most likely indicates he was married with 4 children (2 sons and 2 daughters), and your James, who married Bridget Henry, was not yet born.
It also suggests 'Jas', being married with 4 children by 1831, was likely born about 1800, give or take a few years.
And THAT 'Jas', could have been a son of John, or James, who would have been born sometime in the period 1760-1775, sons of Capt. John Downing, b. c.1740.
With all the 'Johns' and 'James' in this line, plus the name DAWSON Patrick, I believe these are the same Downings as "Capt. John", whose brother was Dawson Downing, b. 1739.
If you call up the 1951 Census, the statistics indicate Killyberry Downing consisted of 135 acres and the population was 10 males + 5 females, so you can see this is a VERY small area, and probably doesn't support more than a few families.
Another clue is that the 'Widow' Downing occupied House No. 9 in 1831, so it's possible Killyberry Downing contained at least 9 dwellings, although there was a separate (and adjacent) Killyberry Boyd, which was not distinguished in the 1831 Census, but WAS distinguished in the 1901 Census.
That's speculative, but at least it gives you some leads that need to be followed for verification.
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Diving deeper into this subject and after further research, it has become clear that "Killyberry" was ONE Townland prior to 1831, as evidenced by Bill Macafees 1831 Census (see)
http://www.billmacafee.com/1831census.htm
If you download the Excel version, you can scroll down to Loughinsholin/Ballyscullion and see that there were 50 households in Killyberry, but there are no other Townlands by that name.
By the 1901 Census, there were 2 Downing households in "Killyberry Downing" and another Downing household in "Killyberry Boyd".
It is understood that when James Downing died in 1889, he was described as "of Killyberry Downing"
If we look at a map of the Townlands of Ballyscullion (see),
https://www.townlands.ie/antrim/ballyscullion/
we can see there are THREE Townlands containing the name "Killyberry", specifically, Killyberry Boyd (the north division), Killyberry (the central division), and Killyberry Downing (the south division).
So the obvious conclusion is that "Killyberry" was subdivided sometime between 1831 and 1901, probably before 1889.
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As for Jamey Hanley's original question;
I've been trying to put together some puzzle pieces on his 'James' Downing of Killyberry Downing, b. 1835, and as I've mentioned in this thread, there are numerous clues that he was descended from John Downing of Rowesgift.
There are gaps that need to be filled in with unverified generations, and it's not ethical for any genealogist to build trees based on pure speculation, or uncorroborated evidence, BUT, I often wear my "detective hat" and "put names on a wall with strings attached", just to see how they MIGHT be connected.
Jamey believes that his great grandfather's name was 'John' and that he was born about 1805.
We know from the 1828 Tithe Applotment Books that there was a 'James' Downing, a 'John' Downing, and a 'Widow' Downing, all of Killyberry. We also know from the 1831 Census that there was a 'James' Downing, and a 'Widow' Downing of Killyberry (but no 'John').
We know that John Downing of Rowesgift was assigned rights to 91 acres of farmland at Killyberry by Deed, dated 1 Apr 1734, from his mother-in-law, Anne Rowe of Ballydermot
(see Transcripts of Memorials of Deeds, Conveyances & Wills, 1733-1736, Ireland, Vol 77 ; p. 228 ; Film No. 8088379 ; img 134-135 ; Mem. No. 53470 - Microfilmed at the Registry of Deeds, Dublin)
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSN1-X3XC-H?i=133&cat=185720
(btw): Rowesgift lies in the Townland of Ballydermot and Killyberry adjoins the northern part of Ballydermot, literally across the street)
Jamey tells us that Edward Downing, son of James (b.1835), was farming 1/3 of the family farm, which he described as "30 acres" (Reply #12 in this thread).
We know that John Downing of Rowesgift had three surviving sons, two of whom held rights to the Rowesgift manor house at various times; Dawson Downing and Capt. John Downing.
We know that none of the descendants of Dawson fit the names and dates to make him an ancestor of 'James' Downing of Killyberry Downing.
We know that Capt. John Downing (b. c.1740) had two sons, 'John' and 'James'. We don't have birth years for them but it's likely they were born between 1765-1775. By 1828, they could certainly have been still living, as could the wife of Capt. John, particularly if she was significantly younger than Capt. John.
Now for some speculation:
1. If 'John' Downing, father of James of Killyberry Downing, (b. 1835) was indeed born in 1805, it's quite possible he was not yet a head of house in 1828 or 1831.
2. Could 'James', 'John', and 'Widow' Downing of Killyberry, have been the two sons of Capt. John and their mother ? answ: absolutely
3. Could 'James' and 'Widow' Downing of Killyberry have been the same two individuals, with 'John' either moving away, or having died ? answ: absolutely
4. Capt. John could certainly have left the 91 acre farm, or part of it, to his sons, John and James.
So, with 'John' (b. c.1765-1775), son of Capt. John, having evidently "flown the nest", I would SPECULATE that James Downing of Killyberry Downing (b. 1835), was the son of 'John' Downing of Killyberry (b. 1805), the grandson of 'James' Downing of Killyberry (b. c.1765-1775), the great grandson of Capt. John Downing (b. c.1740), and the great great grandson of John Downing of Rowesgift (b. 1700).
Makes perfect sense to me, although I wouldn't etch it in granite. All we need is confirmation.