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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Lancashire => Topic started by: keithwynne on Friday 29 June 12 18:44 BST (UK)
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My great uncle Thomas Wynne was a policeman in Liverpool, lived in West Derby, (Everton?) retired in 1914 and apart from a solitary daughter I've been unable to find any of his offspring. I'd love to find any information to help with my family tree. I met him before his death in 1954ish and he was a lovely man.
Keith
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retired in 1914
If he retired in 1914 - have you looked for him on the 1911 census to establish exactly when and where he was born?
Who did he marry?
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he married a katherine and had at least 9 children he was born c1866 and died 1954
he lived in liverpool and was a police constable
if this is him i will post the censuses on here for you
mick
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this one was born in st.martin,shropshire his wife was born in liverpool as were the 9 children
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The 1891 census shows him with one child Alfred E G Wynne aged 2. Catherine is given as Catherine M so I would think this is the marriage
Thomas Wynne to Catherine M Gray 1890 Registry Office or Register attended marriage.
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St Peter Liverpool
May 6th,1891
John Gover/Glover Wynne
abode May Street
father Thomas ,mother Kate
father a policeman
William Thomas
child of Thomas and Catherine Maud
4th of July 1893
abode Gloucester Place
Catherine Maud
11th of May 1896
abode Baker Street
Jenny Josephine,
13th of September 1897
born 1st of September
abode Baker Street
parents Catherine Maud and Thomas a policeman
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Emmanuel,Everton
George Henry
son of Thomas and Catherine Maud
abode 29 Baker Street
father a policeman
born 3rd of Dec 1898 baptism 21st of December
Robert Charles
18th of April 1900.baptised May 2nd 1900
Edward Wynne
25th of March 25th March 1904
sons of Catherine Maud and Thomas a police constable,
abode 29 Baker Street
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Hiya Keith ...just for your research notes
West Derby was a Register District which incorporated several villages of Liverpool..AND there is also a village in Liverpool called West Derby..
the village of Everton to West Derby is around 4 miles away ..
looking at what the ever reliable Radcliff has posted , I would say we are looking at Everton as the home village -
to emphasise - I live in Garston , which is 7 miles from West Derby...but Garston came under West Derby register office as well
regards
allan
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Thankyou all for your help, I'm sure you have given me a lot to follow up.
I've no doubt I'll be back when I've digested your information.
keithwynne
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Hi wozzle,
Thankyou for the offer to post the census which I do have. I know something of two of Thomas's offspring, one of whom Hannah, lived in Chirk where she was visited by her sister Elizabeth and father Thomas. I am trying to find something of the remaining family and think I may have found a Catherine Wynne who may be one of Thomas's children,.married to Peter Bartolomi in 1917.
keithwynne
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there is a peter bartolomei who was born on the 9/11/1891 in liverpool(possibly the husband)
his occupation was painter
he served in the first world war
and sometime after that he left england probably with catherine
he returned to england in 1957 aboard the "queen mary" from new york
he was down as married at this time but his wife is not with him
the address he gives in england is;1,thingall avenue,broad green,liverpool. he also stated that he would be staying in england for 6 months
i can find no death for him or catherine in england
p.s. i think it is catherine maude wynne who marries peter
her birth was regd in west derby reg dist in the 2nd qtr 1896
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Your great find has led me to this
Maud Catherine Bartolomea,housewife aged 25
Eileen aged 3
Cathrine aged 1
sailing to New York from Liverpool on the Celtic
Feb 28th 1922
fATHER/GRANDFATHER
Mr T Wynne
3 Osbourne Road Tubrooke Liverpool
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1930 census New Jersey
Peter and Catherine with the children
if no one can post it for you I will later ,
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and this
eileen aged 9 and catherine bartolomei aged 7 were aboard the ship "adriatic" from new york landing at liverpool
address in england given as ;49,georges hill,everton,liverpool
also aboard giving the same address is a alino brennan a 23 year old his occupation is ;clerk
the date of arrival in liverpool was 18th june 1928
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and it would appear that catherine/peter came back aboard the queen mary landing at southampton on the 1st sept 1947
she is aged 51 down as housewife and the address she will be staying at is ;48,broad oak road,knotty ash
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there is a peter bartolomei who was born on the 9/11/1891 in liverpool(possibly the husband)
his occupation was painter
he served in the first world war
and sometime after that he left england probably with catherine
he returned to england in 1957 aboard the "queen mary" from new york
he was down as married at this time but his wife is not with him
the address he gives in england is;1,thingall avenue,broad green,liverpool. he also stated that he would be staying in england for 6 months
i can find no death for him or catherine in england
p.s. i think it is catherine maude wynne who marries peter
her birth was regd in west derby reg dist in the 2nd qtr 1896
just found catherine was aboard the queen mary with peter in 1957
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Just rang my mate who is a Wynne b 1946 registered Liverpool South ( used to be West Derby for Garston )
He said his mums maiden name was Woodward..if Woodward crops up in your research, let me know
allan
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Allan,
I haven't come across a Woodward in my researches, have you a Christian name for your mate's father?
I am coming to the conclusion there were/are a lot of disparate Wynnes in or near Everton.
Keithwynne
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Radcliff, wozzle and other contributors, I'm not sure if the messages I have posted thanking you all for your help have been posted, if not and this one is "thankyou all very much "
keithwynne
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1930 census,
Bloomfield Essx,New Jersey
Peter Bartolomei aged 37 years,a painter he was born England ,his mother and father both born Italy,value of his property $10.000,aged 25 when he married,a painter by trade,could read and write,
Catherine M aged 34,arrived America 1922,both parents born England,age when married 21,could read and write
Eileen J aged 12,born England at school
Cathrien M aged 10,born England
Peter aged 4,born New Jersey
Eileen E Brennan aged 25,cousin,born England ,father born in the free state of Ireland,mother born Ireland,clerk,arrived America 1924,single
Edith Narans aged 54,Aunt,widowed,born England both parents born England,
arrived America 1909,age when married 38,house worker for private family
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Catherine M Bartolomie,
death registered 10th of May 1990
born 28th of April 1896
last address for the deceased
07003 Bloomfield,Essex,
New Jersey
United States of America,
If you want to follow this line I suggest you post on the American boards,
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Dear Radcliff,
I can't thank you enough for all you input. Together with the other contributors you have provided me with details of my Irish connection (Eileen Brennan in Avoca) and the USA where my g.aunt Edith whom I knew went to America as a young woman, was probably instrumental for the Brennans and Bartolomei's
emigrating. I never dreamed I would receive such help. Thankyou once more.
Keithwynne
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just to finish off here is peter and his parents and siblings
1901
RG13/3423/69/38
siovame bartolomei age 42. b. italy. occ. greengrocer. head
filomina age 42. b. montassimo,italy. wife
peter age 13. b.liverpool. son
anthony age 10. b. ditto. son
william age 8. b. ditto. son
john age 6. b. ditto. son
beatrice age 3mnths. b. ditto. daughter
sisto pierom age 17. b. ditto. occ. domestic servant.
living at;62,byram street,islington,liverpool
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Siovame ,uses the name John in 1911,England. and also takes his family to New Jersey in 1923,
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Keith
this may be of interest to you, after reading the latest post by Wozzle - re Bartolomei
http://www.scottiepress.org/projects/litaly4.htm
go to page 3 - a list of Italian families and you will see
Bartolomeri - the census has Bartolomei .... I think they may have mistranscribed Bartolomeri
have a good read of ALL the pages , as maybe there is some info for you - hopefully
good luck
allan
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I thought I had better go back to where we started
John Gover Wynne the first child I posted ,
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Emmanuel Everton
March 1st 1919
John George Thompson,aged 24 ,bachelor,Electrician,2 Wavtree Road,
father Benjamin Thompson,plumber
Jennie Josephine Wynne,spinster ,aged 21 of Baker Street
father Thomas Wynne,pensioner
witness to marriage
William Wynne,Thomas Wynne and Hannah Wynne
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Dear Radcliff, wozzle and garstonite,
May I say how much I appreciate all the time and effort you have spent providing me with much more help and information than I ever imagined possible.
Thank you all so very much.
keithwynne
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Dear Keith ,I am struggling to pick up Alfred ,do you know if he died young,the only one I found was a policeman ,coming from China to England ,but his home address was Glasgow.
And do you mind telling us ,which Wynne you descend from,and have you researched back from yourself,
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possible marriage for Hannah Wynne
to James O Roberts ,
West Derby,O/N/D
1924
if this is the correct Hannah ,they have very welsh named children,
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Hello Radcliff,
I am Keith Wynne Jones, son of Mona Wynne , grandson of Charles Wynne sadly killed 1906. He was the brother of Thomas Wynne, the Liverpool PC. Greatgrandfather was John Wynne.
I've traced my Wynne family back to William Wynne ca 1800 but there are numerous gaps which you and the other contributors are doing much to help me fill.
Re Alfred Wynne, I strongly believe he died aged 18 between July and September 1907.
I also think there may have been three other brothers who died early, John in 1891, Robert in 1900 and Edward in 1904.
You do have the correct Hannah, she was my mother's cousin, lived in Chirk and was widowed when James was killed in a colliery accident.I knew her well and her two sons Bernard and Raymond. She later remarried Joel Mates
Once again thank you for your interest
Kind regards
Keith
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My mother is Eileen Joan Bartholomew, daughter of Catherine Maude and Peter. My grandparents came over to the states and apparently the name changed after entry from Bartholomei to Bartholomew (entered as Bartholomei on the entry records at Ellis). Catherine Maude and Peter had 4 children total, one passing during infancy. They lived in Bloomfield, NJ and enjoyed passage back to England to visit with relatives.
I have been picking my mother's memories for the last few years (she is now 94) and so I was thrilled to find this post as it either confirmed or filled in many of the details.
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Forgive me Mr. Wynne for not being able to reply directly to your Pers. Message, but RootsChat won't let me until I have posted 2 more time. Hopefully, it will be easier in the future once I am no longer considered a "new" poster.
"Cathy" is my second cousin. I didn't realize that she had posted on the other branch of this discussion because I was so very excited to read your posts about our family. She is a fifth generation "Catherine Maude" whose mother is my cousin. Just to make it a little clearer:
Catherine Maude (born approx. 1896, daughter of Catherine Maude and Thomas, a policeman) and Peter Bartholomei (born approx. 1891) are my grandparents and "Cathy"'s great-grandparents. Catherine and Peter had four children: the eldest, Eileen Joan, is my mother. The others were Catherine Maude III (Cathy's grandparent) and a son, Peter. Both Catherine Maude III and Peter have passed on as did their fourth child, who passed in infancy. I will continue in the next post.
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It appears as though your great uncle Thomas Wynne, a policeman, was my great- grandfather, on my maternal grandmother side.
Everything written in the posts appears to be correct, including that my grandfather's name was originally Bartholomei and was changed to Bartholomew after entry to America. This is not a subject my mother will discuss so I confirmed it through the entry papers I found online.
My grandfather, Peter, came without his wife and 2 children (Peter, Jr. was later born in America) as a painter and with a business partner. The others came later. My grandmother Catherine Maude III had several brothers and sisters, including a "Ginny" and a "Edith". My mother also has spoken about "cousin Marion" who I believe is mother to Walter.
The Wynne name continues in my family as my sister is named Erminie Wynne.
I will be more than happy to fill in any other additional blanks and I am so happy to make this connection! Joan
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Hello
I have seen your posting on Rootschat website and wanted to write to you re the Bartolomei family (originally from Lucca, Italy and then Liverpool, England and then USA.
My name is Sue and I live in the UK and I am the great grand daughter of Pilade Bartolomei.
Pilade's brother was Giovanni, married to Filumena Guidugli.
They had several children, the oldest of whom was Peter born 1891 in Liverpool. He was married to Maude and they had 4 children, Orlando (died in infancy), Peter 1925, Joan 1918 and Maude.
Joan had Guy 1945, Wendy 1953, Ermine 1947 and Joan 1956. (This is a small part of the Bartolomei records that I now have since doing the family genealogy in 2000.
To cut a very long story short, I researched the Bartolomei family history and was successful in finding all the records plus the family village in Italy, which I have visited. I have also met up with the descendants of Pasquale (brother to Giovanni and Pilade) from Brazil. I travelled to USA a few years ago and met up with the USA branch of the Bartolomei family in Manasquan N.J. They are descended from Beatrice Bartolomei and Edward Byrne,. At that time I met Joyce Matern 1958 who is the daughter of Peter Bartolomei 1925 and grand daughter of Peter 1891 and Maude.
If you would like any further information on the records I have please let me know.
Kind regards
Sue (UK)
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Hello Sue,
It was a lovely surprise to receive your Rootschat message, I had thought the topic had ground to a halt. The last postings I have date from July 2012 and I had been in contact with Joan Black in USA. I sent her copies of the part of the Wynne family trees I thought were relevant, but I never heard if they were received. I put this down to my very poor computer expertise which meant they never reached her.
Your information about the Bartolomei family has opened another chapter for us. My wife Ann has been busy with the web site and has now been able to add another couple of pages to the family tree.
It's wonderful to be able to get back to the early Wynnes and see how the marriage of Thomas Wynne and Catherine Gray led to our connection to the Bartolomei's.
I am nearly 81 years, born and raised in Chirk (now living in Gloucestershire) and am old enough to remember several of the Wynne family such as Thomas the ex-policeman, Ginny, Hannah and I recall my mother speaking of meeting Maude and Edith when they came over from the USA, and Peter who wore shoes with a decorative style which really impressed the folk of the mining village of Chirk.
I think we're able now to fit in most of the information you gave us so thankyou very much. We were unaware of many names you mentioned such as Joyce for example.
Now I'll take a long look at it and no doubt will find something to ask. Do you know if any of the Bartolomei family still live in Liverpool or in the UK?
With very best wishes
Keith
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www.scottiepress.co.uk
Little Italy
FROM THE GUEST BOOK
Comments: Can anybody tell me where these streets were and if any are still there:- Canton Street, Page Street, Cantebury Street. I am from Liverpool, from an Italian family who lived in Little Italy from the 1880's. They were Bartolomei and Guidugli from Tuscany, Italy. I have recently traced my Italian family history back to their home in a tiny village in Tuscany and would now like to find out more about their lives in Little Italy. I know the Bartolomei family had a Greengrocers at 62 Byrom Street. Thanks for any help Sue Richards
So the Bartolomei family at one stage had a greengrocers in 62 Byrom Street,Liverpool ( city centre )
have you heard of Sue Richards ??
I live in Liverpool - no results for Bartolomei in the phone book
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Hi
there are none of my Bartolomei family still in Liverpool (where I was born and grew up) except for some cousins who I have been in touch with recently. They are descendants (as am I) of Pilade Bartolomei (brother of Giovanni). (The Bartolomei family changed their name to Bartholomew around the time of WWII, as did the USA branch of the family)
Giovanni went to USA with his Italian wife Filumena (married in Tuscany, Italy) after spending many years in Liverpool in the Byrom Street,Little Italy area of the city. Their eldest son Peter married Maud who had some connection with Chirk but I'm not sure exactly what. They travelled to USA in 1921 with their children.
Giovanni's brother, Pilade (my great grandfather stayed behind in Liverpool with his wife and children.) At that time Italians were emigrating to USA, Argentina, Brazil, Australia etc but came through Liverpool where they waited for a ship on to USA. However, some of them stayed in Liverpool and didn't travel onwards to USA. Hope this helps. Sue R
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Hi Sue,
Maude's father Thomas (b1868 in Chirk, d1954 Liverpool) married Catherine Maude Gray (b1869 Liverpool d1947 Liverpool) had daughter Catherine Maude (b1897 Liverpool d?) who married Peter Bartolomei in Liverpool. Peter left for USA in 1921 to stay with aunt Edith (sister of Thomas) now living in USA married to ? Marano. Catherine Maude followed with children in 1922.
The mother of Catherine Maude Gray also came from Chirk.
Kind regards
Keith
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Hello again Keith
thanks for your message. Just looking through some of the paperwork I have from when I was doing the Bartolomei family research:-
I have a copy of the ship's list from when Peter Bartolomei aged 29 years went to New York
He travelled on the SS Celtic, arriving in New York May 27th 1921.
He was travelling with James Black who was 52 years old. They are both Painters. They both gave Mrs Moran of 35 Willowdale Avenue, Montclair, NJ as the person they were travelling to. Mrs Moran is down as a friend of James Black and Aunt to Peter Bartolomei. I wonder if this would have been Aunt Edith? You mention "Marano" - this is probably Moran?
I was in touch with Joyce, granddaughter of Peter Bartolomei, for quite a while after I had met up with her in USA but I haven't had any contact with her for a while. However, I will now try to get in touch to let her know the details you have provided about her family roots.
Kind regards, Sue. ps in 1936 Peter (1891) and Maud (1897) were living at an address in Bloomfield, New Jersey.
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Hello again Sue,
Thankyou for your last message. I have looked up what information I have about Edith Wynne, sister of Thomas.
When she was 35 years old she left Liverpool for USA on the Baltic, arriving Ellis Island on 19th October 1912, her sponsor/friend was Mrs (Mr) Dealey of 139 East 19th St, NY.
In 1921 she met up with Peter and his friend.
In 1927 she returned to Liverpool for the second marriage of her widowed sister Jane to James McCarte. She appears on their marriage certificate as witness Edith Marano.
Incidently (and of no great interest) the ship Baltic was a sister ship to the Titanic which had sunk some months before Edith sailed!
Now I am about to try to make the definitive family tree but hope I may come back to you to help fill in the gaps.
Best wishes
Keith
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Hi,
My great aunt Jane Wynne, as a widow Jane Guest aged 64 living in St Georges Hill, Everton married James McCarte in July 1927.
I have been unable to find any details of him except on their marriage certificate his occupation is "Cinema Fireman" Does anyone know what this means?
Keith