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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Lanarkshire => Topic started by: ourfamilylines on Tuesday 26 June 12 19:57 BST (UK)
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Looking for information on Mary Duncan, possibly illegitimate daughter of a Mary Duncan, domestic servant.
This younger Mary married my ggrandfather, James Gillespie of Falkirk, in Glasow. Any help would be appreciated. Info below.
Mary DUNCAN was a Domestic Servant in 1882 in Slammen, Stirling, SCT. She immigrated about 1905 to Hamilton, Wentworth Co, Ontario, CAN. She was buried in 1925 in Hamilton, Wentworth Co, Ontario, CAN. Hamilton Cemetery, York St. Section S1 and S2 (Part 3 or 4) M.G.R. #901914 NT. O.G.S. #4465 (Part) Ham. Br. Code CEM 293-3. She died on Nov 10 1925 in Hamilton, Wentworth Co, Ontario, CAN. She was born 28 /29 Feb 1862 in Muirhouses, Linlithgowshire, SCT. Linlithgowshire is now known as West Lothian, SCT. [u]She resided 370 Cumberland St. at time of marriage in Glasgow, Dist. of Gorbals, Lanarkshire, SCT. She was in Clyde Parish. Parents: Mary DUNCAN.
She was married to James GILLESPIE on Oct 24 1882 in Glasgow, Dist. of Gorbals, Lanarkshire, SCT. They married at 5 Abbotsford Place, Glasgow, Scotland.
Marriage 1882 644/12 511
Registered 28 October 1882 at Glasgow - John Brown- Registrar[/u]
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Have you checked Scotlandspeople for her birth certificate?
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Do you have names and dates for their children in Scotland?
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Hmmmm.
There is no birth certificate on Scotland's People of a Mary Duncan between 1860 and 1864 in West Lothian, and the IGI does not list any Mary Duncans born on 28 February 1862 or 28 February 1863. (There wasn't a 29 February in either 1862 or 1863 as neither was a leap year.)
'Muirhouses, Linlithgowshire' is an incomplete address. There is no parish of Muirhouses in Scotland, so this must be a single farm and in order to find it you need to know the parish. There are places called Muirhouses in the parishes of Airlie, Angus; Dundee, Angus; Glamis, Angus; Kirriemuir, Angus; Dreghorn, Ayrshire; Old Kilpatrick, Dunbartonshire; Leuchars, Fife; Cambusnethan, Lanarkshire; Crawford, Lanarkshire; Errol, Perthshire; and Carriden, West Lothian.
The 1881 census lists no Mary Duncans in Slamannan or anywhere else in Scotland who were born 1860-1864 in West Lothian.
So where did you get that date and place of birth from? And what was Mary's age according to her marriage certificate?
Presumably she is the Mary Gillespie in the 1911 Canadian census in Hamilton, Ontario: age 48, widow, aged 48, born 1863, February, Scotland, Scotch, Canadian, Brethren, naturalised 1908, with sons John, 24; James, 19; Alick, 17 and Willie, 10?
Your best plan is to find the family in the 1891 and/or 1901 census in Scotand, and see what that tells you about her age and birthplace. You can look up the census at www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk at modest cost.
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According to her death certificate, her birth was 28 Feb 1862. Her son named her father as John Duncan and mother as Mary____ on the death cert.
Family lore says Mary said her father was a soldier and killed. Mary's marriage cert to James Gillespie
ONLY says Mary Duncan - domestic servant as her parent on the cert.
A researcher I hired years ago says Mary is Illegitimate. All of Mary's children with James Gillespie bear the middle names of Duncan or Melrose (James mother) except one, her name was Katie Smith Gillespie and who died at age 2 before Mary and her adult brood (which you also saw in the Canadian info) moved to Ontario. so somwhere the Smith name plays a role I am sure.
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According to the marriage cert, Extract #511 that I do have, for 3 Oct 1882, she is listed as 20 yrs old, Mary Duncan, Spinster. Mother is listed as Mary Duncan, domestic servant. It is an extract from the Dist of Gorbals, County of Lanark, Gorbals Parish.
This family then moves to Larbert and Falkirk. I do have all their children and descendants of which one is my grandfather. They immigrated to Ontario about 1907.
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So far, so good. You should be able to find her in the 1891 and 1901 census easily enough, then.
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1901 census gives her place of birth as Bo'ness, Linlithgowshire
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1881 census has a Mary Duncan Domestic Servant born Linlithgow described as an Inmate living in Liberton, Midlothian
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I will have to check that out! I just now paid for views, but lost the first one 5 credits as my java was not working and is still hesitating to load :-(
I am not really sure where to start and not waste my credits. Does the 1891 show her married to James Gillespie??
I believe they were of the free church. I looked for Robert Gillespie born 1789-1800 in Larbert, loanhead, lanark and Falkirk but the only one that showed was his cousin Robert Hutton Gillespie. This robert the son of William Gillespie and Margaret Hutton. So my Robert is the son of one of William's brother I think.
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1891 has her transcribed as born Murihouses, Linlithgow married to James Gillespie born Falkirk his occupation given as Iron Moulder
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I am very computer saavy, however I've lost 10 credits trying to get the document to view. I've downloaded prism for IE and also updated JR for Chrome. no luck. Frustrated.
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You won't have lost them they will still be available in your viewed images on Scotlandspeople
You may need to set up your account to suit your computer, try setting Scotlandspeople to Direct Download
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1871 census has an interesting record
Mary Duncan (grand daughter) born England living in Linlithgow
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1901 census gives her place of birth as Bo'ness, Linlithgowshire
Bo'ness is in the parish of Carriden.
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1871 details
Mary Duncan
Age: 8
(Granddaughter)
born: England
Address: Bonhard Mill, Carriden, West Lothian
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I am very computer saavy, however I've lost 10 credits trying to get the document to view. I've downloaded prism for IE and also updated JR for Chrome. no luck. Frustrated.
Why don't you contact SP and explain the problem you've had in trying to view documents. They may well consider refunding the repeat credits (5 units) you have used trying to view the same document. Worth a try :)
Monica
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Sancti, I think your possible finds for grandparents and young Mary with them in 1871 are looking good!
The family you found and posted info on were headed up by a John Moffat Duncan and Helen Anderson. They look to have had a daughter called Mary (possible mother for Mary born in 1862?). This looks to be her entry https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XTGN-XMR
I like the address for this family you found Sancti in 1851:
John M Duncan 26 Coal & Ironstone Miner, b. Newton, Midlothian
Helen Duncan 30 b. Tyrone, Ireland
Mary Duncan 8 b. Cromwell Gate, p?shire
Marrion Duncan 6
John M Duncan 4
William A Duncan 1
Address: School House, Muirhouse, Carriden
Monica
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Looks promising Monica, plus the fact we can't see a Mary Duncan born Linlithgowshire 1860-1865
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Somebody else making the same connections (old post though) http://boards.ancestry.co.uk/localities.britisles.scotland.wln.general/298/mb.ashx
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I thank you all for your help. I used up all my credits today. Did not find anything on Mary, but I did find that her husband, James Gillespie's father was spelled Robert Gellispie and Gillispie in the 1841 and 1851 census.
Too many names to look for!
Here is an interesting tidbit.... About 1909 Mary Gillespie nee Duncan receives a letter from England from a man named Edward Harkus. He address's her as "sister" and signs it "signed Your Loving brother and family, Edward Harkus"
What do you think?
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Where did Edward Harkus write from?
There are three Edward H*rk*s births between 1860 and 1870 in FreeBMD
Edward Harkis, Morpeth, 1861, 3rd quarter
Edward Harkus, Newcastle-upon-Tyne, 1862, 3rd quarter
Edward Harkis, Morpeth, 1867, 4th quarter
and a death of Edward Harkus, Newcastle-upon-Tyne, 1862, 4th quarter (ages are not included in the index in 1862 so cannot say for sure that it was the second child above). Although there isn't another death, there is never more than one Edward Harkus/Herkis/Herkess etc of this age group in the census index from 1871 onwards, and some years none at all.
The 1881 census CD-ROM transcription lists just one Edward Harkus in this age group - a 13-year-old coal token taker living in Bedlington, Northumberland, with parents James and Ann Harkus, four siblings and a 15-year-old step-brother named Peter Hepple. James Harkes married Ann Heppell in Newcastle-upon-Tyne in 1866, 4th quarter.
Edward Harkus married Elizabeth Jane Appleby in Morpeth in 1889 and they had a daughter Annie in 1890 and twins May and Christopher William in 1893.
From the 1881 census it looks as if Elizabeth Jane is the daughter of Thomas and Margaret Appleby, born in Morpeth in 1879,3rd quarter.
So is this the right Edward Harkus? Are there any clues in the letter that match any of the foregoing?
If he is the right Edward Harkus, it could mean either that Mary Duncan's father was James Harkus or that Mary Duncan's father was Thomas Appleby. Or there might be another possible relationship which has not occurred to me ;)
However, it might be John Edward Harkus. He was born in Newcastle-upon-Tyne in 1863, 4th quarter, and the 1881 CD-ROM lists him as the 17-year-old son of Robert and Mary Harcus. Mary was aged 40 and born in Scotland. There is a marriage of Robert Harkus in Newcastle-upon-Tyne in 1859, bride either Mary Hannah Pool or Jane Thompson, and another in 1868, bride Mary Duncan or Martha Kay. John Edward Harkus married in Newcastle in 1883, bride either Elizabeth Collins or Isabella McDonald.
This looks promising, but raises several questions. If John Edward Harkus is Mary Duncan or Gillespie's brother, how come (a) his birth was registered as Harkus and not as Duncan, when his parents were apparently not married until five years later and (b) why does he not appear as Edward in the census, if that was the name he habitually used? (I can't actually find him at all in 1891 or 1901, but that could be because of poor indexing.) Maybe he was in fact her stepbrother, a son of Robert Harkus by a previous marriage?
Food for thought?
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Wow Forfarian! Thats a lot to digest!!! So I went into my notebooks and found my copy of this hand written letter and some words are too light to make out.
Corporation Yard
Skinner Burn Road
Newcastle on Tyne
January 2, 1911
Edward states the ship building is picking up. They have had a visit from Mr & Mrs Wilson from Carriden who must now return home to prepare for "Bessie's" wedding,which took place in September,you would be astonished at the change there is in a___ she looks older and shorter and she was _ of what (Geas?) mother was a few years ago and I need hardly say how pleased Uncle Jim is at her complete recovery".
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Bingo!
I'll PM you.
You need to get a copy of the birth certificate of John Edward Harkuss - see http://freebmd.rootsweb.com/cgi/search.pl for full details and how to get one.
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found details on one of the census records relating to either a gillespie or a harkus in newcastle on the census records where his spouse is called welsh but appears on the census records as both welsh and waugh. don't know if this helps with both families. don't know why shows both however. can find it and send it to you next time at library ourfamilylines if you want.?Think it was an elizabeth however, could this be bessie.?
T.
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wish I could contact that Mr. Stewart. Seems he is looking for my Mary Duncan.
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Just found on Ancestry.com and may order death cert:;
my grandfather, John Duncan Gillespie, son of Mary(nee Duncan) Gillespie states
on his death cert that his mother's last name was HARKNESS.
this mystery goes round and round. Any more thoughts???
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my grandfather, John Duncan Gillespie, son of Mary(nee Duncan) Gillespie states
on his death cert that his mother's last name was HARKNESS.
this mystery goes round and round. Any more thoughts???
Yes. Obviously if John Duncan Gillespie was dead, it was not he who said his mother's last name was Harkness. Who was the informant who registered his death?
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I would assume it was his wife, Helen McGee (Rowan) Gillespie. But where on earth would she
have gotten that name fro for him?
Still trying to figure out how John Edward Harkus of Newcastle, b 1864 to Mary Poole and Robert Harkus, would call my ggrandmother Mary Duncan, "sister". Mary Duncan's mother is listed as Mary Duncan on her Lanarkshire 1882 marriage cert. However, a Mary Duncan b. at 1844 in Scotland marries Robert Harkus of Newcastle on 1868 and Robert's son John Edward has already been born and referrs to his step mothers previous child as sister? Gosh my head is swimming.
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Using only ancestry.com and family search IgI, I have tried every combination of:
Mary Harkus and John Duncan having a child, Mary in Scotland and / or England
Mary Duncan and Harkus/Harkness using the same.
I come up with nothing. There is a link here but can't seem to grab it. If the 1871 census for West Lothian is correct and John Duncan and Helen Anderson have a granddaughter b. 1862 in England living with them, then it might all add up in a round about way. How do I find out the parents names of this grandchild??
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Using only ancestry.com and family search IgI, I have tried every combination of:
Mary Harkus and John Duncan having a child, Mary in Scotland and / or England
Mary Duncan and Harkus/Harkness using the same.
I come up with nothing. There is a link here but can't seem to grab it. If the 1871 census for West Lothian is correct and John Duncan and Helen Anderson have a granddaughter b. 1862 in England living with them, then it might all add up in a round about way. How do I find out the parents names of this grandchild??
Neither Ancestry nor FamilySearch is anything like comprehensive or definitive for births in England. FreeBMD http://www.freebmd.org.uk/ is much better, but does not tell you parents' names because it is a transcription of the official index, and this information is not included in the official index.
Have you got the 1868 marriage certificate of Robert Harkus and Mary Duncan yet? If not, then I suggest that it might be useful. FreeBMD will tell you how to go about getting a copy. I don't see any problem with stepbrother and stepsister addressing each other as 'sister' and 'brother' - it is quite possible that the combined family was a happy and harmonious one and that all the children regarded themselves as such.
I am puzzled that you seem to have John Duncan Gillespie's death certificate, but you 'assume' that the informant was his wife. The informant's name and relationship to the deceased is on the certificate - it is never safe to 'assume' anything in family history.
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Yes, I understand it is an assumption, however at the time of my grandfather's death his only living relatives were my 31 yr old father and my grandmother in Calif. The rest of the family was in Ontario, CA.
I've looked at the 1911 enlish census and Robert Harkus's wife Mary Duncan is entered as having been born in Dundee. So I'm trying to figure if this Mary is indeed my gggrandmother and the mother of my ggrandmother Mary Duncan who states she was born in Bo'ness and may be the "grandaughter listed as having been born in England and now resides with her grandparents John Moffatt Duncan and Helen Anderson at the 1871 Scottish census.
Mary is born in 1862/1863. Then maybe in 1868 her mother, a domestic servant, marries Robert Harkus who is widowed in Newcastle with a son John Edward Harkus b. 1868 to Mary Hanna Poole, and leaves her daughter behind? oh gosh my head is spinning again.
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YAY!!! I just received England marriage cert for Robert S Harkus and Mary Duncan. Her father is John Duncan, a gardener. Mary had a daughter also named Mary Duncan in 1862/1863. It appears she married Robert Harkus in 1868 and (1) became John Edward Harkus stepmother, (2) left her daughter Mary Duncan with her parents in Carriden, West Lothian, as John Duncan and Helen Anderson in 1871 census have a grandaughter Mary Duncan 8 yrs old born in Enland living with them. This younger Mary Duncan (father still unknown) marries James Gillespie 1882 in Glasgow, moves to Falkirk area and abt 1908 as a widow, she and her grown children and spouses immigrate to Ontario. One of her children is my grandfather, John Duncan Gillespie who dies in Los Angeles in 1951. On his death cert, his wife states that John's mothers last name is HARKNESS, which not only she mistook the spelling of, but was wrong, because it was his GRANDMOTHER Mary Duncan who married the Harkus.
Also... if not stated earlier by me, Edward Harkus writes to Mary (Duncan) Gillespie in Canada in 1911 and address's her as sister and he mentions Carriden, Scotland. Sooo I think this is all proof that my illegitimate ggrandmother, Mary Duncan, daughter of Mary Duncan who marries Robert Harkus is indeed truth. Whew! Thanks for letting me explain that. I sure hope others who have questions about this family will see this so I don't have to repeat myself!
*Gayle*
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Yay. Well done Gayle.
T.