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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: maisiemo on Monday 25 June 12 00:44 BST (UK)
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Not sure where to post this as I am not certain of the counties involved. Please move as necessary.
I am new to searching family history (2 months), am registered with FindMyPast and have had some success with other branches of our family. However I am now stuck with the Black family line.
William Black was my husband’s grandfather. I have sent for his marriage certificate which shows as follows
Marriage date 3 July 1920
William Black aged 41 years, Widower, Wood machinist, Father - Henry Black (deceased), Stationer
Lilian Trigg, aged 30 years, Spinster, Cook (domestic), Father - Samuel Trigg (deceased), Carpenter
At the time of the marriage William and Lilian lived at 12 Smith Street, Shoeburyness, Essex.
Witnesses are S. Trigg and A Trigg, who are Lilian’s siblings. From here I can trace the Trigg family back without difficulty.
My problem is with William Black. Although the current generations of Black family are in England, my husband remembers his mother telling him that her father (William Black) came from Greenock in Renfrewshire originally. We have no idea when the move from Scotland to England took place.
I have searched both England/Wales BMD records, and Scotlands People, for William’s birth/baptism, his death and also tried to find some trace of his first wife and possible children from that marriage. Although that is not essential to our family tree, it would be interesting to find out. I have also searched the census records. So far I haven’t been able to find any of this, nor can I find anything on Henry Black, William’s father. I have used 1879 +/- one year as Williams date of birth, calculated from his being 41 when he married in 1920.
I apologise in advance if I have missed doing something I should have done. I assume I do not have enough information right now, to send for his birth/death certificates. I would be very grateful for some help with all this.
Anne
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Hi maisiemo
Welcome to Rootschat
not sure if this helps
as Black is quite a common name in Greenock :)
on Inverclyde intimations there is a death of a Henry Black
who drowned at sea 1886
this is the only Henry Black mentioned on there,
that
Henry Black married Charlotte McIntyre in Greenock 1874,
1881 census
Hendry Black born 1851 Greenock occupation sea man
Charlotte Black born 1855 Greenock
Alan Black born 1877 Greenock
John Black born 1879 Greenock
Margaret Black born 1880 Greenock
Anne McIntyre (charlotte's mother) born 1816 Greenock
no sign of a William with them though,
Scotlands people has these births,
there is also a birth on there for a William born between 1879 and 1881
Elaine
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Are you in touch with descendants of/know what happened to all the kids of William and Lillian? Might anybody remember the name of a step-sibling, uncle/aunt, other relative who they got letters from?
Although I won't list them as they may still be living, there are a number of kids on freebmd, surnamed Black, mother's maiden name Trigg. Judging by these births and some of the marriages, the family seem to have moved from the Rochford district to Weymouth - does this sound right?
Lilian Black d. Mar 1951 Weymouth district aged 60.
a possible for William is the man d. Sep 1939 Weymouth district, also aged 60.
(However the death certificate is unlikely to be of much help).
http://www.findmypast.co.uk/search/army-service-records/all
- there are some hits here for a William Black, b. 1879 Greenock - might be worth a look?
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Thank you very much Elaine and Jorose for your replies.
Jorose - My husband read your words about being in touch with family members and surprised me by phoning his elderly mother, which has not happened for a long time, so a special thank you for that.
I had identified the more recent births and marriages you mentioned - my husband remembered enough for me to find them. You were correct about the family moving from Essex to Weymouth, the younger generations are still mostly there. Today’s phone call did bring several surprises. William Black lived in Glasgow, not Greenock. He moved to England about 1919/1920 shortly before he met Lillian. William had a sister they called Belle, presumably Isabella. His first wife died in childbirth but no details of names/dates etc. William was in the Army, again dates not known.
I am very sorry I gave wrong information, i.e. Greenock. It was what we had been told. Oh dear, all those names you found for me in Scotland, Elaine. I spent this morning trying to match them to what I had already - no wonder they didn’t fit!
I really appreciate your help.
Anne
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Hi Anne
That is ok we all get told things that turn out not
to be true, ;D
have you found them on the 1881 census in Glasgow
Elaine
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Hi Elaine
I found several William Blacks on the 1881 census but only one whose father is Henry, and there is no Isabella in the family, although I am aware she could have been born later. When I look for William and Isabella in later census, I do not find them.
Anne
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This looks like them
1881 census
address 193 Waddell Street Hutchesontown Lanarkshire
Henry Black born 1839 Lanarkshire occupation stationer Porter
Isabella Black born 1836 Gallowayshire wife
Isabella Black born 1868 Glasgow message girl
William Black born 1870 Glasgow scholar (out by about 10 years) though going by age at death
Henry Black born 1875 Glasgow
Haven't came across them in 1891 yet still looking
Elaine
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Anne
if that is the right family I think this could be Henry's marriage,
Henry Black married Isabella Greer 1865 in Penninghame Wigtown
the marriage and the births of the children can be found here
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0o30/
Elaine
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I think I have found Henry Black jnr's (i.e. brother of William) military record. He says he was born in Govan, and gives his sister Bella as his next of kin. She is living at 138 (bit of a splodge for an 8!) West Graham St, Glasgow.
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Elaine - Wonderful information, thank you. You say "IF that is the right family". To my inexperienced eye, it certainly looks like it. The only thing that bothers me is William Black's age/DOB. I have a copy of his marriage certificate from GRO, which states his age as 41years (in 1920) which would make his DOB around 1879, whereas Family Search show 1869. Should I be concerned about that?
Spidermonkey - Wow - that sounds really interesting. I do know that William Black was very military minded and sent at least three of his sons (my husband’s uncles) to "Army school".
I am amazed at what you good people can find!
Anne
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Anne
the reason I said if was the same reason (age difference)
as there are more couples called Henry Black and Isabella,I have been looking through some of the family trees on Ancestry to see if any of them fit in,
The Henry Black and spouse Isabella Wilson
children are Janet and John,
Henry Black and spouse Isabella Cumming
children are James, Henry, Isabella, Annie and John,
I can find most of these on family search
I cant see a William born to these two families but as the births only go up to 1875 it is possible
they could have,
I wonder if William fibbed about his age ;D
will keep looking, :)
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If the William Black b.1870 is "yours", then possibly he lied about his age to bring it closer to his bride's.
You probably need to locate William Black before his marriage in 1920, either his first marriage, or better still his military involvement.
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I think we need to find out about the military record that Spidermonkey found and
which Henry Black it belongs to,
as both of these Henry's have a sister called Isabella it could be either of them,
a couple of questions, ;D
Anne have you found a marriage for Isabella,
Spidermonkey,what surname did Bella have on the military record,
if Isabella had married would the military record show her married name of maiden name
Elaine
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Elaine
SpiderMonkey seemed to be talking about Henry Jnr, William's brother.
I haven't yet found a marriage for Isabella. She is there with the family in the 1881 census. By 1891 she is a Boarder with another family, also named Black. So far, I cannot find her after that.
There is also a child of Henry and Isabella called Elizabeth, born 6 July 1872 (shown in Family Search) but I cannot find her on the census records.
This is very addictive, isn't it?
Anne
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Unfortunately, Bella is given a surname of Henry's army record. In the next of kin section it just says sister - Bella and then gives her address!
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I think I have proof that William did lie about his age when he married Lillian. :o
Last night I took William's birth information shown on Family Search and put the details into Scotlands People. I was really trying to find the codes that would allow me to send for a birth certificate. However I was able to download an official birth entry "1869 Black, William (Statutory Births 644/10 0875)". All the information shown matches what I already have, so this is definitely "our" William, and confirms birth date of 28th April 1869. So he was 51 when he married Lillian, not 41 as he said.
Is this document proof enough?
Anne
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Anne
sorry I have not been able to do any research for a couple of day's
(workmen in the house) :P
if the parents match what you already have
I would say you have found your man, 8)
and you should be able to download Henry and Isabella's marriage cert
this would help you get back another generation, :)
Elaine
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Hi Anne
I am not sure if this information may help.
I have Lily (reg as Lily Trigg) in my tree. Her father was a carpenter (a Wheeler Sergeant) in the Royal Artillery. I have his military career if you are interested. You say at the time of their marriage William Black and Lilian were living in Shoebury which is a Garrison town and that William was in the Army. Perhaps William Black was also in the Royal Artillery (as were Lily's brothers) perhaps that is how they met.
I had a quick look through and found
William Black born 1878 Barony Glasgow attested 1897 aged 19 yrs 3 months Royal Garrison Artillery Edinburgh
Single (no n of kin)
This would put his date of birth to the age he gives on his marriage certificate.
This may obviously be another William Black. Did he have any children from his first marriage?
Army families can sometimes be very illusive and they do 'get around'
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Hello Hemmum
I am so pleased to read your post. Lily Trigg was my husband’s grandmother, her daughter Joan is my husband’s mother. From what you said about the military side of the family I think perhaps I have got my William Black’s confused.
The family ‘story’ always spoke of a strong military background but I could not find much evidence of that. The family also believed that William’s first wife died in childbirth but knew no details.
This is what I have on ‘my’ William Black.
He was born in Glasgow, question mark over the date.
31 Dec 1890 (aged 22) he married Mary Carson Thomson (aged 18) in Glasgow. The certificate shows his father as Henry Black, stationer’s assistant (deceased) and mother Isabella Black m.s. Greer.
I believe they had three children - Henry 23/8/1891; Mary 17/5/1893; and Isabella 14/5/1896 but I have not been able to trace them on any census records etc.
4 May 1907 Mary died in childbirth. I cannot find any ongoing record of the child so it may not have lived.
3 July 1920 William married Lilian Trigg (mostly referred to as Lily). William is recorded as 41 years and widower, and his father Henry Black, stationer (deceased); Lily as 30 years, spinster. At that time they lived at 12 Smith Street, Shoeburyness. S. Trigg and A Trigg were witnesses at the marriage. William and Lily went on to have 8 children, the 7th being Joan Mary, Tony’s mother.
William’s occupation at the first marriage was ‘saw miller’ and at the second 'wood machinist' - no mention of military involvement. Also on the marriage certificates there is a difference of 10 years in calculating his year of birth, 1869 and 1879.
I wonder now whether I have two different Williams here, although the same father details in both certificates would discount that.
Can I ask what relation Lily is to you?
Anne
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Hi Anne
Lily was my grandfathers sister. I will have a hunt around for you to see if I can help.
From William Black's first marriage certificate do you have his residence? Who were the witnesses?
I do feel that military records may help particularly as you cannot find the children on the census. (maybe they were abroad) What records do you have for the births for;
Henry 23/8/1891; Mary 17/5/1893; and Isabella 14/5/1896
You mention; 'The family ‘story’ always spoke of a strong military background but I could not find much evidence of that'
Lily's brother Samuel (registered as Robert Samuel) attested for the army in 1903 and served until 1916 but on the 1901 and 1911 census he gives his occupation as either a general labourer or a Labourer at Government works and makes no mention of being a serving soldier! The same is true with her brother Gideon who was a also a carpenter, but makes no mention of being a soldier on the census.
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Hi again Anne,
Not sure if this helps but you mentioned William's three children. Perhaps this is the family on 1901 census. William Black born 1865 Glasgow (Ship Yard Labourer) wife Mary 1873 Glasgow, s Henry 1892, d Mary 1892, d Isabella 1897, all living 44 Marlborough Street Glasgow, Camlachie
I do not know my way around the Scottish records very well. Is there a 1911 census? Any idea when his first wife Mary Black died?
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Hi Anne
Can you check on the witness of the 1920 marriage certificate? I though Lily's sister Ann married in 1909 and had died by 1910 (this balances with the 1911 census which gives her parents children) so could not have been the A Trigg who witnessed the wedding. There was the wife of Gideon, Agnes Alice Trigg?
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Hello again and thank you for your input.
William Black’s first marriage -
William’s address 5 Norfolk Street, Glasgow
Mary’s address 420 Rutherglen Road, Glasgow
Mary Black died 4 May 1907 in Glasgow (hospital)
I have just been looking at the 1901 census, and yes I am sure that is the first little family. On Find My Past, the 1911 census does not appear to include Scotland. I looked at 1891 but cannot find any of them.
Just read your latest post. The witnesses only have their first initial, so no confirmation of first name. I haven’t yet searched for the spouses of Lily’s siblings.
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How about this?
1891 census William Black born 1870 Glasgow (Saw miller) wife Mary 1873 Glasgow living 45 Pollock St Glasgow, Govan.
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Yes, I have found that now ;D
I have found the Scottish records much more difficult to find. I had drawn so many blanks originally on finding William's first wife, then I attended a lecture at Register House in Edinburgh, the home of the Scottish files. They gave us access to their Scotland's People computer system with an expert on hand to help us. He found Mary for me, and her cause of death which confirmed that she died in childbirth.