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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Topic started by: RONTAYLOR121 on Tuesday 29 June 04 21:07 BST (UK)
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I’m trying to find my grandfathers true identity.
1881 Census at Leeds, Yorkshire, England UK
William SHAW and Annie Eliza Shaw (nee BREWSTER).
Children :-
George 20 born Hull,
Margaret 16 b. Bradford,
Harriet E. 13 b. Leeds,
Mary Eliza 10 b. Leeds,
Susannah 5 b. Leeds,
Eliza Ann 2 b. Leeds.
Eliza Ann Shaw (age 2 above) was my grandmother, but I can not find the true identity of my grandfather due to a family secret that goes back to the late 1800’s or early 1900’s.
A “William WOOD” (born 1800’s) was connected to the Shaw family,
some of his children :- William Henry, Arthur, Herbert and Florrie Wood.
The following names may be connected :-
BREWSTER, SHAW, WOOD, GOMERSALL, KELSEY, WELLS, GARNER, JOYNSON, THORPE, RINGROSE, ROTHSCHILD, LISTER, TAYLOR, THOMPSON, TURNER, CARAFFI, CARAFFA, KINGSMAN, ANNABLE, KNIGHT.
Any information much appreciated, however small.
Thanks – Ron
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Dear Ron,
My name is Carolyn Gomersall and I live in Western Australia. The reason I am contacting you is that my husband's name is Andrew Kelsey Gomersall. He was born in Maidstone, Kent, England. His Father's name was Frank Kelsey Gomersall and as far as I can gather, the Gomersall's came from Yorkshire. When I saw Gomersall and Kelsey, I thought I'd contact you in case I can be of any help. Andrew's father was very abrupt (in 1978/79, when he was visiting us in Australia) when I quizzed him about his family tree! He has since passed away in 1984, so information is scarce from the Gomersall line.
Kind regards
Carolyn Gomersall
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Carolyn,
I’ll explain why I listed the names Gomesall and Kelsey, amongst the other names.
As far as I know, Mary Eliza Shaw was born c.1871 in Leeds Yorkshire, I think she was married three times to a Gomersall, a Kelsey and a Wells, I’m not sure if that was the correct order of marriages.
Mary Gomersall had Fred & Lilian, may be others.
Mary Kelsey had a son Jack, may be others.
Mary Wells had Earle & Wilfred, may be others.
I don’t know if there is a connection with your husband Andrew, may be he can make an ancestral connection.
Best Wishes
Ron (Cumbria, England UK)
For anyone else reading this posting, I repeat my original posting :-
I’m trying to find my grandfathers true identity.
1881 Census at Leeds, Yorkshire, England UK
William SHAW and Annie Eliza Shaw (nee BREWSTER).
Children :-
George 20 born Hull,
Margaret 16 b. Bradford,
Harriet E. 13 b. Leeds,
Mary Eliza 10 b. Leeds,
Susannah 5 b. Leeds,
Eliza Ann 2 b. Leeds.
Eliza Ann Shaw (age 2 above) was my grandmother, but I can not find the true identity of my grandfather due to a family secret that goes back to the late 1800’s or early 1900’s.
A “William WOOD” (born 1800’s) was connected to the Shaw family,
some of his children :- William Henry, Arthur, Herbert and Florrie Wood.
The following names may be connected :-
BREWSTER, SHAW, WOOD, GOMERSALL, KELSEY, WELLS, GARNER, JOYNSON, THORPE, RINGROSE, ROTHSCHILD, LISTER, TAYLOR, THOMPSON, TURNER, CARAFFI, CARAFFA, KINGSMAN, ANNABLE, KNIGHT.
Any information much appreciated, however small.
Thanks – Ron
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Hello Ron,
Re: CARAFFI, CARAFFA,
These two names looked Italian to me so I visited
http://gens.labo.net/it/cognomi/genera.html
Insert the names (one at a time) into the search box on the
left hand side and it produces a map of Italy where the name occurs.
As I though the names do occur in Italy.
Whereabouts in England did these two names appear?
You may also be interested in the Anglo Italian FHS
http://www.anglo-italianfhs.org.uk
There is also a migrants section on Rootschat which might be of interest, and an Anglo Italian mailing list (details via the AIFHS web page)
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Hi Julie
Thanks for the information,
Although I knew my grandfather, I don't know his birth name, place or country of birth, birth date or year.
I don't have any positive information about my grandfather before the year 1905, he was probably born between 1865 and 1885.
Family tales say that my grandfather was probably born in London England UK and that when he was young he ran away and lived with an Italian family in Italy, he may have changed his name to Caraffi whilst in Italy, I don’t know if any of this is true.
The first fact that I know about my grandfather is that in 1905 he was a Street Musician living in Leeds, England with his partner (my grandmother) Eliza Ann SHAW, they were using the names Luigi Caraffi and Eliza Ann Caraffi.
I've been told that granddad was either a Clerk or a Piano Tuner before he was a Street Musician.
By the time my father was born at Skipton, England in 1913, my grandparents were using the names John and Eliza Taylor.
Family tales says that Luigi Caraffi and John Taylor were the same person, although this may not be true.
My grandparents used the names John and Eliza Taylor until their deaths at Yiewsley, West Drayton, England in 1961 and 1953, it’s been said that granddad went to Italy on a number of occasions, I don’t know what name he used whilst out of England.
Between 1905 and 1909 whilst using the names Luigi and Eliza Caraffi, I know that my grandparents had at least three children in the Leeds area :- Eliza Ann Caraffi b.1905 d.1906, Rosina Caraffi b.1907 and Charles Caraffi b.1909 d.1910.
After 1910 my grandparents had at least five children with the surname TAYLOR (my father, my aunts and uncle). All the living descendants of my grandparents that I know, can not tell me anything about my grandfather, as they say that they do not know anything about his true identity or what he did when he was young that caused him to run away and change his name.
I think my grandfather was probably born in London England or Italy, or maybe Leeds.
Caraffi and Caraffa were very rare names in England before 1900.
During my research I found a Rosina (Millicent) CARAFFA born at London in the 1830’s,
I think there is a possibility that she was my granddad’s mother or grandmother, due to the facts that she lived in London and that granddad named one of his children Rosina Caraffi in 1907.
Rosina Millicent Caraffa married William Long Kingsman at London in 1858, they had at least one child Rosina Emma Kingsman b.1859. William Long Kingsman d.1861.
Rosina M Kingsman (nee Caraffa) married William ANNABLE at London in 1868, they had at least one child, Florence Louise Annable b.1874, I don’t know what other children they had ?
Rosina Emma Kingsman married James KNIGHT at London in 1883, I don’t know what children they had ?
I don’t know if either of the Rosina’s re-married or had any other children, I think my granddad might be a son of Rosina Millicent or Rosina Emma.
I haven’t managed to contact any descendants of Rosina Millicent Caraffa.
Any help is greatly appreciated.
P.S.
I don’t know if the following is related to the secrecy :-
I’ve been told that my grandmother Eliza Ann Shaw had a first child named MARY SHAW,
Mary was taken away by the authorities and put in to care.
In the 1930’s Mary worked as a live in maid for a Doctor Thomas Leonard RINGROSE who worked at Leeds General Infirmary, he lived at Headingley Leeds.
Any descendants of Mary Shaw or the Ringrose family may be able to help me unravel the true identity of my grandfather ?
Thanks – Ron
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Ron - Have you tried to establish if a Passport was issued to your relative?
It might be worth contacting the Passport Office and seeing if they have any records.
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Julie
No I have not tried to establish if a passport was issued.
I don't know what name I would ask for, my best bet would be to ask if there was one issued for Louigi/Luigi CARAFFI, as the others names that I suspect are too common.
Thanks for the idea, however, I don't know how to go about requesting such a search, do you know if it's a standard procedure that the Passport Office carry out, any advice is appreciated.
Thanks - Ron
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Ron
I have just joined rootschat and found this old thread by searching for Kingsman.
William Long Kingsman [b1805] was my gx3 grandfather. he was married to Mary Ann Tyler who died in 1855. They had nine children, many of whom enterred into the family business (Ivory turning and carving). I have no records of him remarrying, but is it possible that this is the same William Long Kingsman as you mention as marrying Rosina Carraffi?
If you have any details that you haven't mentioned in your previous post I'd be very grateful if you could pass them on.
Many thanks
Derrick Watson
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Ron
I've managed to find the following information which may be of use to you. I am certain that there is a link between your Kingsman line and mine. I am still unsure as to whether the William Long Kingsman is the same as mine (b1805) or is one of his close relatives.
1837 Terence Henry Caraffa, marriage, Dec 1837, St George Southwark, Vol 4 Page 123 – Emma Garrett is on the same page.
1851 Emma Caroffa (age 54, married, schoolmistress, b Middx) with daughter Rosina (age 19 (?), b Middx) at 8 Bermondsey Rd. [H0107/1562/418/31].
1851 Henry Caraffa (age 57, married, schoolmaster, b Dublin, Ireland) at 10 Fort Place, Bermondsey [H0107/1561/49/22]
1859 Henry Terence Caraffa, death, Mar 1859,Bermondsey (1837-69), Vol 1d Page 8[71]
1861 Emma Carafa (age 64, widow, b Middx) at 94 Bermondsey Rd [RG9/326/85/21]
1871 Emma Caraffa (age 72, widow, schoolmistress, b London, Strand) at 9 Smiths Gardens Bermondsey [RG10/629/12/22]
1861 William Long Kingsman (b1805) is listed as a widower, living with his children in Lambeth. No mention of Rosina in this entry. Wife Mary Ann {Tyler} had died in 1855. Still working as an Ivory turner. [RG9/340/106/36]
1861 William Long Kingsman, death, Dec 1861, Newington, Vol 1d Page 183
1871 William Kingsman (age 68, lodger, widower, b Middx St Andrews) at Public Lodging House in Bryanstone Square, London [RG10/168/36/7]
1858 Rosina Millicent Carloffa, marriage, Sep 1858, Lambeth, Vol 1d Page 542 – William Long Kingsman is on the same page
1862 Frederick William Kingsman, birth, Jun 1862, Bermondsey (1837-69), Vol 1d Page 106
1868 Rosana Millicent Kingsman, marriage, Sep 1868, Bermonsey (1837-60), Vol 1d Page 51 – William Annable is on the same page.
1871 William Annable (age 51, married, carpenter, b Chesterfield Derbyshire), wife Rosina (age 32, b Middx), “son” Frederick Kingsman (age 8, b Middx) at 275 New Kent Road, Southwark [RG10/601/97/26]
1874 Florence Louise Annable, birth, Mar 1874, St Saviour Southwark, Vol 1d Page 46
1879 William Annable, death aged 67, Mar 1879, Lambeth, Vol 1d Page 284
1880 Rosina Annable, death aged 44, Dec 1880, St Saviour Southwark, Vol 1d Page 28
1859 Rosina Emma Kingsman, birth, Sep 1859, Newington, Vol 1d Page 225
1871 Rose Kingsman (age 10, niece, b Lambeth, Surrey) staying with Richard James Kingsman at 189 Newington Butts, Lambeth [RG10/621/105/11] - Richard James is nephew to William Long Kingsman (b1805)
1881 Rose E Kingsman (age 21, visitor, unmarried, envelope folder (?), b Bermondsey) staying at 176 Westmoreland Road, Newington with the family of James Knight. [RG11/0542/28/11]
1883 Rosina Kingsman, marriage, Dec 1883, St Saviour Southwark, Vol 1d Page 360 – James Knight is on the same page.
I have not found an 1861 census entry for either of the Rosinas under any name variant that I can think off, and I also have not found a birth record for Rosina senior, although she may predate registration.
If you have already got a copy of the Caraffa-Kingsman marriage certificate, could you please let me know what details it has for William (age, profession, father's name) as that will tie it down precisely to my tree.
Regards
Derrick
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Derrick,
Thanks for all the information, I've copied it down to my computer.
I don't have enough knowledge of the families to piece it all together, I'm still working through it..
The following are details that may help you make a connection, I know that I'm repeating some of the details that you already know.
1858 Marriage certificate details:- At Lambeth 11th Sept 1858 William Long Kingsman a Bachelor, an Ivory Carver of Wood Street, Father Richard Kingsman an Ivory Carver.
W.L. Kingsman married Rosina Millicent Caraffa, a Spinster, no profession, of New Street, "Both of full age", Father Henry Caraffa a School Master. Witnesses Elizabeth Powell, I can't read the other one, something like "?. L. Ga???ler or Go???ler".
1859 Rosina Millicent Kingsman had a daughter Rosina Emma Kingsman born 26 May 1859 at 2 Manor Place, Walworth, Father William Long Kingsman (Ivory Carver), Mother Rosina Millicent Kingsman formerly Caraffa.
1861 Rosina Millicent Kingsman's husband W.L. Kingsman died in 1861, Death certificate details
Registration District Newington in the Sub-district of Saint Mary in the County of Surrey
William Long Kingsman, age 30, Died 18 December 1861 at 2 Manor Place. Occupation Ivory Carver, Cause of death ?Dropsy? 3 months. Informant and Residence Mary Kingsman present at the death 5 Manor Place Walworth.
This is definitely the correct William Long Kingsman, a different one died 1865 June Quarter Holborn 1b 396.
1862 Rosina Millicent Kingsman had a son Frederick William Kingsman, born 17 April 1862 at 94 Bermondsey New Road. Registration District "Saint Mary Magdalen Bermondsey Surrey" in the Sub-district "Leather Market" in the County of Surrey. Father William Long Kingsman (Deceased), Occupation Ivory Carver (Master). Mother Rosina Millicent Kingsman formerly Caraffa.
Informant R.M. Kingsman Mother of 94 Bermondsey New Road, Bermondsey.
1868 Rosina Millicent Kingsman married William Annable 1868 Sep Quarter Bermondsey 1d 51
I do not have the marriage certificate.
1874 Rosina Millicent Annable had a daughter Florence Louise Annable Birth 1874 March Qtr, St Saviour 1d 46. I do not have the birth certificate.
1880 Death Certificate Details of Rosina Annable age 44:- Registration District St Saviour Surrey in the Sub-district of Kent Road in the County of Surrey. Death 2 December 1880, 275 New Kent Road, Widow of William Annable a Carpenter. Informant Frederick Kingsman present at the death 275 New Kent Road Southwalk.
1883 Rosina Millicent's daughter Rosina Emma Kingsman married James Knight 1883 Dec Qtr St Saviour 1d 360, I do not have the marriage certificate.
1887 Frederick William Kingsman married Jessie Mary Bass 1887 Dec Qtr Shoreditch 1c 182, I do not have the marriage certificate, marriage not proved.
DERRICK
I don't know my grandfathers true identity, I know he used the name Luigi Caraffi, then used the name John (William)Taylor, neither are said to be his true name, I think he may have been a descendant of Rosina Millicent Caraffa.
I don't know what other children Rosina Millicent, Rosina Emma, James Knight or Frederick William Kingsman had, I would like to know what children they had and what happened to them, so that I can try and determine if any were my grandfather.
I don't know why my grandfather used the name Taylor, but during my William Long Kingsman research I came across your Mary Ann TYLOR which is obviously a variant of TAYLOR, I wonder if this is where he got the name Taylor from.
1825 William Long Kingsman married Mary Ann TYLOR in 1825 at Newgate, London.
1826 A son to the above couple :- William Kingsman, born 09 November 1826, Christening 07 December 1828, Christ Church Greyfriars Newgate, London. Parents William Long Kingsman and Mary Ann Kingsman. I suspect this child probably had the middle name Tylor/Taylor added to his name, becoming the following William T Kingsman (1881 Census, Ivory Worker).
1881 Census Details:- 5 Gosport Rd., Walthamstow, Essex
William T. Kingsman, Head, 53, born Clerkenwell, Occ: Ivory Worker.
Caroline Kingsman, Wife 57, born Birmingham.
Arthur Erysell, Nurse Child, 7, born Hoxton, Occ: Scholar.
I've rushed typing all this information, anyway, I hope it helps and perhaps some one else may help us out.
Regards - Ron
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Ron
Thanks for this extra information. That does sort out where your William Long Kingsman fits in with mine. They were Uncle & nephew. Richard Kingman was younger brother to my William Long Kingsman.
This also explains why Rose was listed as niece to Richard Kingsman (son of Richard above) in the 1871 census.
I had completely missed this second William Long.
I shall spend some time tomorrow sorting out the information you've given me.
Derrick
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Ron
Having looked through your data, here are a couple more pieces of information that you may not have seen yet.
Rose Kingsman and James Knight had a son called Frederick, born 1885 Camberwell.
In the 1891 census, James, Rose and Frederick are living together in Peckham. Florence Annable was living with them. [RG12/475/59/46].
James died between 1891 and 1901. I think the most likely entry is Dec 1893, St Saviour Southwark, Vol 1d Page 85 (aged 36).
In the 1901 census Rose is listed as a widow, living in Bethanl Green with her son Frederick and her sister Florence. Rose is a theater dresser, Florence is a theatrical costumer, Frederick is a Confectioners Clerk. [RG13/287/114/4]
One link that I haven't found is Rose senior in 1861. She should have been married to William Kingsman with daughter Rose. I found William, living on his own but listed as married. It would be nice to find Rose & Rose.
I also haven't found any census records for Frederick Kingsman, son of William and Rose. He was definitely around in 1880 to report his Mum's death, but I haven't found him on the census for 1881 - or any other year. Are you sure that this Frederick is the right one for the marriage you mentioned? There are several other Frederick Kingsman at that time. I was wondering if this Frederick may have become Luigi/John?
I don't know if this brings you any closer to your grandfather or not. If you come up with anything more please let me know, I shall keep poking around as time allows.
Regards
Derrick