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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Durham => Topic started by: northernsearcher on Saturday 23 June 12 14:32 BST (UK)
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Can anyone help solve this puzzle please.
I have a marriage from Northumberland and Durham Family History Society (reproduced on FindMyPast) between John Burn and Elizabeth Bainbridge for the 26 Feb 1815 at Sunderland Holy Trinity but according to an article from Sunderland Antiquarians there are 2 Holy Trinities, one in Usworth (on idea where this is) and one in Southwick which was built in 1842. The article says 'formed into an ecclesiastical parish out of Monkwearmouth. The census records for Elizabeth and her children (I think John must be dead by '41) are all for Monkwearmouth Shore. So how could they have married before the church was built?
http://www.sunderland-antiquarians.org/assets/Uploads/OPGM/WAP/PlacesofWorshipinOldSunderland.pdf
The Burn children were christened at Robinson Lane and St Georges which according to the same article would mean that they were Presbyterians.
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Bishop's Transcripts on familysearch seem to have records for Sunderland Holy Trinity from 1769.
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Ah, thank you Craclyn
Jen
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Holy Trinity the Parish Church of Sunderland was consecrated 5th September 1719.
Stan
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See http://www.sunderlandheritage.org.uk/buildings.php?id=18
Stan
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but according to an article from Sunderland Antiquarians there are 2 Holy Trinities, one in Usworth (on idea where this is) and one in Southwick which was built in 1842.
The Holy Trinity Parish Church comes after St. Michael's in the article. Usworth Holy Trinity was created in 1835from Washington Holy Trinity.
Stan
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Thank you Stan, lovely and informative website.
Jen
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There is a burial in Monkwearmouth St. Peter of a John Burn of MWM Shore, age 46, 9 Feb 1838. I don't know if that is him or not as there are several baptisms of children in Monkwearmouth with parents John and Elizabeth.
Janis
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Janis thank you for the information about John. I don't have a death or a birth for him. Can I ask where you found it? I had assumed that he must have died after 1833 - birth of last child Mary - and before the 1841c as Elizabeth is on her own with the some of the children in Wear St. MWM Shore. She is a publican. By the time of the '51 she has remarried (not found marriage yet) and is living with William Tynesmouth or Tynmouth.
Thanks again,
Jen
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Free bmd give a possible marriage as O/N/D1840 Sunderland
Elizabeth Burn and William Tinmouth,on the same page
but you have her alone as a widow in 1841 with her children ,
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I have various transcripts and looked up burials of likely persons
Janis
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Thank you Radcliff -
I will check the marriage of Elizabeth and William, it sounds as though it is the one I need. I don't know where William was in 41, maybe at sea, as he lists himself on the '51 as a Master Mariner.
Janis, thank you again, can you tell me which transcript John was on please. John and Elizabeth are direct line, I have no parents for either Elizabeth or John.
Jen
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These transcripts you can get at NDFHS off their website. I think most parishes are oncd as well as fiche.
Janis
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Thank you Janis I will look for the site.
Radcliff maybe she kept her Burn name in '41 because she was a publican and needed it for the licence?
Jen
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M,Is for monkwearmouth st peters
erected in the memory of john burn who departed this life feb 5th 1838 aged 46 also 4 infant children .a loving husband
lynnej
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lynnej
Thank you so much for this transcript. Can I ask you for the source please? I have spent a frustrating time (I am not living in the North East of England and am a relative beginner to family history) searching the NDFHS website. I am happy to pay to join the society or to buy documents/disks but I couldn't find any burial records covering 1838. It may be that I am going about it in the wrong way! Can you help?
Jen
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hi jen
I have collected a lot of m,is for monkwearmouth st peters and sunderland holy trinity
when visiting the records office but i understand you can purchase these from ndfhs website
http://www.ndfhs.org.uk/Sales/
lynnej
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Under Original Indexes- they typically transribed from 1813-1839 for Bapt, Mar, Burials. There is a drawback to these as they only wrote the names and dates except for burials it gave the age and place they lived (and probably died).
They do help one to locate where you might find the records--like me-- I get short on time as I live in the US and only can spend a few short weeks researching.
I don't know if you have to be a member to order fiche.
Janis
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Hi lynnej and Janis
Thank you both for your efforts and clarifications. I have sent an email to N&DFHS to see if having a membership will help me get to individual records or if I still have to buy them. I got a bit confused looking at the website as it seemed to suggest that they did not have records for St Peters Monkwearmouth in 1838.
I will let you know what the reply says.
Jen
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NDFHS membership does not give online access to any individual records. It gives you the opportunity to use their archives in Newcastle. It also gives you the option to use their forum and mailing list which might put you in touch with someone who has useful info or can do a lookup.
They have quite a few booklets of MIs etc for sale which are useful. Just be aware that it is easier to buy them from the online store than physically at Percy House. I have twice tried to buy publications while I was there and found it was easier to come home to Norway and order them through the post. They have a chap who has to come in and print the booklet after it is ordered and apparently he is the only one who knows how to do it :)
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Maybe you are not looking in the right place. They have Monkwearmouth Bapt, Mar, Bur 1813-1839 (this does include 1838) on fiche and on CD--only on CD they separate the parts and charge more than having all three on one set of fiche. On CD there is also Bishopwearmouth
Look under "Online Sales Publicaltions of the former Original Indexes"--the 5th item down on the list on the home page
Janis
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Hello all
Many thanks again.
I said I would report back when I got a reply from N&DFHS and I have to say that I have a reply already - same day - which I think is impressive. Also the person who replied gave me a very detailed and fair answer to my question about membership.
Craclyn you are right membership doesn't give access to individual records -suppose it was a bit optimistic of me to expect that. To used to using Family Search!
Janis thanks again will try the Original Indexes which I ignored.
I suppose the problem is that with people I am not confident that I have got right I try to get at least two different sources and then I am more confident that its right.
And now one final, probably very silly question. Wouldn't I need a reader for a fiche?
Jen
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Who are you looking for and what record? Hints of area, census? I am willing to try to find this person.
I got my fiche reader--built into a briefcase--on eBay. Better to go to the site of the country you live as the electric supply will be easier without adaptor plugs.
Janis
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Janis thank you so much for your kind offer - where to start!
The family I have been working on recently are the Burn/ Bainbridge /Douglass ancestors.
John Burn (4th G Grand father b. about 1782 in Berwick Northumberland). You gave me his death date at the beginning of this post. John married Elizabeth Bainbridge in 1815. They had at least 9 children: Elizabeth BURN (b.1816)
Sarah BURN (b.1817)
Isabella BURN (b.1819)
John BURN (b.1821)
William BURN (b.1823)
Charles BURN (b.1825)
Ann Storey BURN (b.1828)
Walter Bainbridge BURN (b.1831)
Mary Ann Storey BURN (b.1833)
Elizabeth married William Holt Douglass b. 1813 and they had 10 children:
John DOUGLASS (b.1836)
Elizabeth Bainbridge DOUGLASS (b.183
Sarah Burn DOUGLASS (1839 - 1841)
JOHN BURN DOUGLASS (1841 - 1887)
Sarah Ann DOUGLASS (b.1843)
Mary Jane DOUGLASS (b.1845)
Isabella DOUGLASS (b.1848)
Charles W DOUGLASS (b.1853)
William Holt DOUGLASS, Jr (b.1857)
Alfred DOUGLASS (1859 - 1863)
John Burn Douglass is the direct line of these children
I have been trying to find a christening for William Holt Douglass (b. 1813) and also parents without any success Williams mother is living with the family on the 1861c at 4 Brougham St Bishopwearmouth. She is called Elizabeth and lists her birth place as Biddick.
I wondered if she might be a Holt but can't find her. I thought if I had a transcript of Williams marriage or christening I might get to his parents. William and Elizabeth were married on the 11 Jul. 1835 Monkwearmouth - don't know which church.
There is also a Presbyterian connection. Both generations of children -John and Elizabeths and William and Elizabeths were christened Bridge Road - Scotch church.
Sorry if this was really long. I hope it makes sense.
Thank you again Jen
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William Douglas and Elizabeth Burn were married in Monkwearmouth Parish Church 11th July 1835. Under Harwicke's 1753 Marriage Act all valid marriages, except for Jews and Quakers, had to be in a C of E Church licensed for the publication of Banns. This was the law until the introduction of Civil Registration, 1st July 1837.
Stan
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Thank you for that Stan. And probably a silly question is that St Peters church or All Saints.
Jen
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The parish church of Monkwearmouth was St. Peter's.
Stan
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Many thanks again Stan, I now have the marriage. I got it from Family Search. Am I right in thinking that if I could get access to the original record it would have the names of the bride and groom's fathers? The reason I ask is N&DFHS has a transcript of Monkwearmouth St. Peter marriages 1583-1837. If there is more information it might be worth getting it.
Jen
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Hi Jen
Father's names will not be given in 1835. Under Hardwicke's Marriage Act 1753, and the later 1812 Act, the information recorded in the parish register is the names of the bride and groom, their parish, the date and place, whether the marriage was by banns or licence, the consent of the parents if either of the couple were under the age of 21, the marital status of the bride and groom, and the names of witnesses. Occupation and the parents names are not given.
You can see examples of parish registers from various periods at http://www.durhamrecordoffice.org.uk/Pages/Parishregisters.aspx
Stan
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Yet again and again many thanks Stan a very useful site,
Whatever else family history research is doing to me (keeping me awake at night, boring my family and friends, pestering people on RootChat etc.) its certainly keeping my brain working (I hope!). Perhaps its time to post a new thread to see if anyone can track William Holt Douglass's parents and/or christening.
Thank you
Jen
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just completing I think!
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There is an Elizabeth Holt baptised in Penshaw All Saints 23 Oct 1785 d/o Henry and Elizabeth of Biddick.
The name Holt can be spelled a numbert of ways so I found a baptism of a sibling of Elizabeth Holt in Penshaw
Thomas Hoult born 18 Aug 1800 baptised 2 Sept 1800 4th son of Henry Hoult, pitman, native of this chapelry by his wife Elizabeth Brough native of this chapelry.
Sadly there is a burial of Elizabeth Hoult on the same day as the baptism (not unusual) Elizabeth Hoult of South Biddick whife of Henry Hoult, pitman, native of this chapelry. Died 31 Aug 1800 buried 2 Sept 1800, age 37
Later the son without a mam Thomas dies but there is a bit of confusion over the maiden name of the wife:
Thomas Hoult, South Biddick, died 2 Oct 1800, buried 3 Oct 1800, age 7 weeks, son of Henry Hoult by his late wife Elizabeth Jackson, native of this chapelry
The last name might also be found as Hought and Hout
North Biddick was in the parish of Washington Holy Trinity and South Biddick fell under Penshaw Holy Trinity (sometimes seen as Pensher and Painshaw, mostly pronounced Pensher)
There is a baptism of a Bridget Hoult in Washington born 12 may 1797, baptised 22 oct 1797 d/o Henry and Elizabeth Hoult of Old Engine Stables. Died 6 Feb 1799, buried 8 Feb, age 1 3/4, the Old Stables d/o Henry Hoult, pitman and his wife Elizabeth
I think I settled the Jackson/Bough debate: Penshaw marriages 24 Oct 1784 Henry Holt and Elizabeth Jackson, the witnesses were regulars of the parish
Still working on some of the others
Janis
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Janis,
Thank you so very much for this. I think this is really going somewhere. William's family have been a brick wall of mine for some time.
I found 2 marriages on GENUKI which I think make some sense of Elizabeth Brough/Jackson and fit with your findings. They are:
Both marriages below are Penshaw Church of all Saints
25 Dec 1777 John Jackson = Elizabeth Brough from GENUKI
24 Oct 1784 Henry Holt = Elizabeth Jackson from GENUKI
I also thought that if I could get to some of the family on the '41c this might make the link between Elizabeth Douglass on the '61c born Biddick and the Elizabeth Holt baptised Penshaw All Saints of Biddick.
No luck so far but will keep trying.
Jen
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I have the parish film from Penshaw. The Jackson one didn't say she was a widow in the banns or the marriage--but no one else was either so sounds like that wasn't the practice at that time.
Burials:
John Jackson jr 19 May 1783, Biddick
John Jackson 28 Sept 1783, Biddick
Janis
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The baptisms of some of the Douglass children at the Scotch Church on Bridge Road, Monkwearmouth. Witnesses and Parish of Nativity may be helpful.
John, son of William Douglass of the Parish of Jellygate, Durham, and of Elizabeth Burn, his wife, of the Parish of Monkwearmouth, was born on 1st May 1836 and baptized on 22nd May 1836, in the presence of Alexander Hooper, Elder, and William Bainbridge.
Elizabeth Bainbridge, daughter of William Douglas of the Parish of Bishopwearmouth, and of Elizabeth Burn, his wife, of the Parish of Monkwearmouth, was born 17th April 1837. Baptized 8th May 1837 in the presence of Alexander Hooper, Elder, and Mary Spencely.
Sarah Burn, daughter of William Douglas of the Parish of Durham, and of Elizabeth Burn, his wife, of the Parish of Monkwearmouth, was born 1st March 1839. Baptized 24th March 1839 in the presence of Alexander Hooper, Elder, and Robert Douglas.
John Burn, son of William Douglass of the Parish of Durham, and of Elizabeth Burn, his wife, of the Parish of Monkwearmouth, was born on 20th February 1841 and baptized on 14th March 1841, in the presence of Alexander Hooper, Elder, and William Tinmouth.
So, on three of the four baptisms, William gives his birthplace as Durham, specifically Gillygate (Gilesgate) on one of them. And a Robert Douglas was a witness at one baptism, so could be his father or brother.
One of the witnesses was a Mary Spenceley. There is this family in 1851 census.
329 High St., Wapping Middlesex.
Richard Spenceley, 58, Ships Chandler, employing 13 men, b. Sunderland,
Mary Spenceley, wife, 57, b. Sunderland,
Richard Jackson Spenceley, son, 21, Chemist, b. Sunderland,
Ann Spenceley, 23, dau, b. Sunderland,
Mary Ann Burn, 18, Visitor, b. Sunderland,
HO107/1550/33/21
Mary Ann Burn would appear to be Elizabeths sister, so the Spenceleys may be related.
Mary Anns baptism :
Mary Ann Storey, 2nd daughter of John Burn, of the Parish of Monkwearmouth, and of Elizabeth Bainbridge, his wife of the Parish of Sunderland, was born 16th April 1833, and baptized 12th May 1833 in the presence of Alexander Hooper, Elder, and Eleanor Bainbridge.
Alan.
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A few other baptisms.
Walter Bainbridge, 4th son of John Burn of Monkwearmouth Parish, and of Elizabeth Bainbridge, his wife, of Sunderland Parish, was born 10th June 1831. Baptized 19th June 1831 in the presence of William Craig, Elder, and Mary Spenceley.
Ann Storey, daughter of John Burn, Rope Maker, of Monkwearmouth, and Elizabeth Bainbridge, his wife, of Sunderland, was born 26th April 1828, and baptized 26th May 1828 in the presence of these witnesses, John Brown and Alexander Hopper, Elders in the Scotch Church Monkwearmouth.
Charles, 3rd son of John Burn of Monkwearmouth Shore, Rope Maker, and of Elizabeth Bainbridge, his wife, of Sunderland, Resident Monkwearmouth Shore, was born 31 Dec 1825 and said child was baptized 24th January 1826 in the presence of Messrs Bainbridge and Hooper.
Elizabeth, born 8th Apr 1816, baptized 5th May 1816. First daughter of John Burn, Ropemaker, Native of Bishopwearmouth, and of Elizabeth Bainbridge (Native of Sunderland).
A possible baptism at Monkwearmouth.
John, son of John and Isabella Burn of Monkwearmouth Shore, born 6 Nov 1791, baptized 27 Nov 1791
Alan.
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Thank you janis for the burials, I am still working on the Biddick connection. South Biddick sounds like an interesting place in the early 18c. Apparently Biddickers were a rough lot who intimidated excise officers and pressgangs. from:http://joinermarriageindex.co.uk/pjoiner/genuki/DUR/Penshaw/Burnmoordesc.html
The population declined to 74 people by the time of the '41c. The enumerator explains that all the pit men and their families left because Biddick collieries were becoming exhausted. Perhaps thats why the family had moved to Wasington
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Many thanks Alan for all this information. I haven't had a chance to look at it in detail but it is really exciting and I am going to follow up on the leads you have given me. It's as though more and more pieces of the puzzle are coming together.
The baptisms are really really useful, I had found some of them on Family Search but they don't give all the information that you have given me, for example William's Parish and birthplace. Please can you tell me where you found them?
The baptism for John Burn in '41 is interesting too because William Tinmouth/Tynesmouth is the second husband of Elizabeth Bainbridge John's grandmother. He is living with William and Elizabeth on the '61c.
Thank you again
Jen