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Research in Other Countries => New Zealand => New Zealand Completed Requests => Topic started by: familysleuth on Friday 22 June 12 08:58 BST (UK)
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I'd really appreciate some help with this one - brick walls abound!
I was fortunate in receiving a very comprehensive (and obviously commissioned) family descendant document for my ancestor John WHITE who immigrated to New Zealand in about 1864. It starts with him, and his wife Mary NELLON (or Nailon; Nelan; Nellin etc who also immigrated to NZ about the same time). This information comes from their respective death registrations. John WHITE was a quarry-man/miner in Orepuki and his residence there is well documented by voter registrations and school record information.
John White originates from County Derry and Mary Nellen from County Kerry. Both appear to have been protestants, possibly Presbyterian. John and Mary were married on the 10th Oct 1865 at Knox Church, Dunedin. Mary was a Spinster, but there is a rather ambiguous squiggle in that column for John, however he is listed 'full age'. They had a large family, of which my great grandmother was a child - Prudence White. There are a number of 'John Whites' in NZ at the time, some of them holding govt. positions - I doubt they are connected to this family.
My quest is to find the ship, or ships they came out on, and more about them if possible. I have looked for them in 'Papers Past' without success, and also have not been able to find them in Australia, or on a ship from Australia to NZ. There are some possibilities with family left in Ireland with the dominance of the female name 'Prudence' (repeated a number of times in generations of this family) but nothing conclusive.
Would anyone have a clue as to how I can find out more about John and Mary? I'd be most grateful!
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Hello
here is their Marriage
1865/8714 Mary Nellen to John White
Cheers Janette
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What were their ages when they married,we might be able to find their deaths and work back
Cheers Janette
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I take it you have worked out the number of years in NZ from their Death Registrations?
Cheers
KHP
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ooops... sorry, I forgot their ages. John White was born abt 1834 and mary Nellon was born about 1843. Ages at their marriage were for John 'full age' and Mary '_' which gives us little.
However their death certs note John dying in 1916 at the age of 82, having 52 years in NZ. For Mary, she died in 1917 at the age of 74, having been in NZ for 54 years.
It appears that they both came to NZ about 1864..... just before their marriage in October 1865.
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That is ok, sometimes in the excitement of posting, we forget to post the important bits.
Cheers
KHP
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Here are the deaths
some kind person may be able to find them in the burial locator
1916/10236 White John 82Y
I dont' see a 74yr old Mary,just this one
1917/110 White Mary Elizabeth 74Y
There is this one too
1917/9205 White Mary 76Y
Cheers Janette
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Here are the deaths
some kind person may be able to find them in the burial locator
1916/10236 White John 82Y
1917/9205 White Mary 76Y
Cheers Janette
Burial Locator just says Orepuki. The District Council for Southland will need to be emailed.
Cheers
KHP
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There is an email for the cemetery trust here
http://www.southlanddc.govt.nz/cemeteries/
Cheers Janette
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Thanks everyone... I do have their deaths - they are both buried at Orepuki with their son Mathew and his wife Elizabeth.
My missing info is the ship(s)..... any clues??????
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May not be your guy ..... Ireland isn't mentioned as his country, but near the birth year.
A J White travelled from Melbourne to NZ 12 May 1864 arriving at Port Chalmers on the ship Alhambra. He was aged 31, single, occupation was Miner, country put down as England.
PROV VPRS 948 LDS Film 0284495
Cheers
KHP
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Kiwi, that is a distinct possibility - of anywhere, Port Chalmers would have been the port most likely for them to enter NZ. ...... I looked up 'ships to NZ' and found many they could have came on, but none with passenger lists - I have cross-checked with the 'yesteryears' site, but only cabin passengers are noted: may I ask you how you found that listing? I see that the Alhambra made a number of journeys with cargo and passengers about that time.
Entering Australia for John, I have only been able to find one possible - a convict listing. However, I suspect it is more likely that he came over to make his fortune with gold, like so many others.
Thanks again!!!!!
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may I ask you how you found that listing?
Thanks again!!!!!
I have a copy of the Passenger Lists from Victoria, Melbourne to NZ 1852-1923 on disc. These are the same lists that is on the Public Record Office of Victoria (PROV) Melbourne website.
With passenger lists, when I was transcribing them, not always was there an initial, sometimes it was Mr Blogs and Family, J Blogs, and sometimes just Blogs. Not much help for the genealogists to find their family. Also the clerk would just put the name down how it sounded to their ear with the different accents. The writing of the clerk was sometimes difficult to read .. another reason why searching a name doesn't come up
Cheers
KHP
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Yes, of all the records, I find the passenger lists the most frustrating (except for very old parish records which can be incomprehensible!)
I did look at the index on the Vic govt site.... much earlier on, and discarded it, because I found only accompanied John Whites with children. I've just re-entered the search using J White, and found the index info that is a possibility - I need to be more careful with the searches!!
John White turns up as a very common name entering Australia within 10 years of the marriage date - I think it would be quite difficult to weed through them without spending a lot of money. Lots are still there in 1900 which rule them out anyway. Without particular family info, I don't believe I can get too far with this one. Another avenue could be searching for family members - sisters or brothers. *sigh*
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This information comes from their respective death registrations
Hello...
Can't help with the ship (sorry) but can I suggest you start a thread requesting a look-up of John and Mary's ITM (http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,347615.0.html).
On a recent NZ thread a girl (also called Mary) was supposed to have arrived in NZ in 1859. This was worked out from the information on her death certificate (her year of death minus the number of years in NZ).
However the informant for the death certificate seems to have got it wrong by ten years because in 1863 when Mary filled in her ITM she herself said she had been resident for 14 years. So she had arrived in NZ by at least 1849.
Not saying that your information is wrong but it's easy enough to double-check it.
If your info is wrong, it will give you a different time period in which to look.
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Here's an example of an ITM look-up thread (in fact it's the ITM request thread of the Mary I just mentioned)...
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,599584.0.html
If you do start an ITM request thread include the names (John WHITE and Mary NELLEN**), the date of marriage (10 Oct 1865) and the location of marriage (Dunedin).
Mary NELLON (or Nailon; Nelan; Nellin etc
**I used the spelling found on the Presbyterian Archives (http://www.presbyterian.org.nz/archives/marriageregisters/knoxdunedin24.htm) website
Regards
Beg
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Thank you so much Beg, I did not know about the ITM's .
Since these are made my the people concerned, I see your point...... (I could also get another spelling for Mary's surname :) ). Is the only way to find these out by actual look up, or can I write to request? I ask because I have another 'brick wall' to verify, that of my g grandfather Thomas Joyce whom I think I have an immigration date for, but am not certain. this may be some added information there too. I don't like to inconvenience anyone - its so kind of people to do lookups!! and this seems a bit complex....
cheers, and thank you for the information!!!!
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Hello FamilySleuth...
Yes, you can order ITM's from the Archives NZ website. It costs NZ$8.00 per ITM. I think they email a scan of the actual ITM to you.
Here is the fees page...
http://archives.govt.nz/research/ordering-archives/our-research-and-copying-services/our-research-services/price-list
Here is the "Ordering an ITM" page...
http://archives.govt.nz/research/ordering-archives/our-research-and-copying-services/our-research-services/intentions-marry
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It's not as immediate but if you start an ITM request thread some kind rootschatter visiting Wellington archives will look-up the ITM and copy out the details for you. Possibly even take a photo of the ITM and email it to you. There is no charge to you except for the debt of gratitude.
If you have the date and location for the marriage of your g-grandfather Thomas JOYCE you may as well request a look-up for his ITM too. If the marriage is pre-1881 you don't need to mention the date or the location, although if you know them you may as well mention them in your request.
You may have to wait a week or so for someone to visit the Archives but I've been told patience is a virtue :-)
Regards
Beg
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You may have to wait a week or so for someone to visit the Archives but I've been told patience is a virtue :-)
Regards
Beg
Beg is right, our Wellington looker ups are a bit on the thin side at the moment, but the look ups eventually get done.
Cheers
KHP
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sorry to squash the shipping record mentioned previously but there are John White's arriving in 1962, 1963 and one in January 1964, when you know what it says on the ITM let us know and we'll have another look
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Thanks everyone - I did request the ITM's for Mary and John, and also these records for a couple of other ancestors I needed to check. What I DID find was that the 'Residence' column was interpreted differently by various offices/officials - another person assisting me confirmed that apparently no guidelines were given out with the forms so local officials made their own interpretation of what was meant … ie, whether this meant time in NZ or time in that place.... specifically that Parish.
So, Beg, your example may not be an error at all.... on one of the ITM's that I requested I found that my ancestor, Rosina, put down a residence of 3 years and I knew she had been in NZ for 17 years. However I was able to track her place of residence and 3 years prior to her new marriage, she moved from Oamaru to Dunedin, lending weight to the fact that at that time, in Dunedin, they were interpreting residence as 'residence in that parish'.
However the ITM remains a great resource, and can obviously add weight to other facts or suppositions. I also found that ordering it from Archway was easy and swift, although it cost money!.
Back to Mary and John - for residence John (aged 23) put 6 months, and Mary 5 months with 'no one to give consent' - aged 18 at the time. I would say my feeling is that they were new immigrants to NZ. With this age for John the John White who was 31 and came from Australia in 1864 may not be my man. John's age on the ITM is in conflict with his death certificate stating that he was 82 years old in 1916 (which is not unusual, conflicts at the death certificate stage). so as for ship..... back to the drawing board! I notice that there are a number of ships to Port Chalmers in the early part of 1865 and there are apparently no passenger lists for them....*sigh*
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this site has alot of Port Chalmers passengers list but the search part of it doesn't work so use the 2nd link I put in for it and remove the word Wilson in the address bar and put in White
http://www.yesteryears.co.nz/
https://www.google.co.nz/search?hl=en&q=site%3Awww.yesteryears.co.nz+wilson&oq=site%3Awww.yesteryears.co.nz+wilson&aq=f&aqi=&aql=f&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=2766l3813l0l7l7l0l6l0l0l94l94l1l1
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a quick search reveals nothing for a John White, White or J White of the right year......or of a Nellen, naylon, Nailon, Nellon or Nellin.
I am really pleased you gave me the link though... I do know that site but when I attempt to use the search facility it just doesn't work for me, google seems to block it and I can only search by ship name. Now I know how to get round it!!
I'll keep searching - I have sort of cross-referenced the yesteryears site with the shipstonz site to find extra passenger lists and maybe something will turn up... thanks heaps!!
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Hi ya,
Spades added the other day in the Resource Section -Links to Shipping ....may or may not help .... no harm in trying.
Sorry, the White I found wasn't your guy .... but isn't that part of genealogy, pulling the stones from the rocks?
Cheers
KHP
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Re: Your problem of tracing the ships that Mary & John traveled out to NZ may be never be found. To Get some idea of the this major problem You must look at the history of N Z and what was Happening in N Z at this period.. From the 1859 until 1870 was the period of Otago / central otago/ Southland Gold Rushes that lead from the Australian Gold rush in 1850's...In this period we fine the following.
(1) Passengers lumped in Steerage and Not Listed at all.
(2) Ships listed with no passengers
(3) Govt Officials over come with the Number of vessels arriving and their book work suffered in 1857 Dunedin was visited by only 149 ships in 1860 Dn alone was visited over 382 ships and that was not counting the other minor Ports in Otago or Southland.
I would suggest you read the following books. written by Ian Church.
Otago infant Years .. Shipping arrivals and Departures 2002 or his lecture in A Golden Opportunity Proceedings of NZ Society of Genealogists 2011... John R
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Hi Familysleuth,
From my experience of ITM's I can confirm that 'Length of Residence' usually referred to time at the individual's present location, not time in New Zealand.
In many cases one will see that 'Length of Residence' was '3 days' suggesting that the individual travelled from elsewhere to marry in the intented location.
Have you approached the Otago Settlers Museum in Dunedin? They have excellent resources for researching immigrants to Otago.
If Mary NELLEN travelled as a servant employed by a family this could explain why she might not appear in passenger lists. I believe this wasn't unusual at this time.
Another suggestion is to look at the names of their children. Occasionally names of an emigrant ship (or its captain) was given to one of the children (more often this occured if a child was born during the voyage, but it remains a possibilty).
Spades
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If Mary NELLEN travelled as a servant employed by a family this could explain why she might not appear in passenger lists. I believe this wasn't unusual at this time.
Spades
Most cases, it was recorded as "travelling with servant" or "travelling with governess or nursemaid" Sometimes families with children, paid for someone to travel with them so they could look after their children on the way out.
Cheers
KHP
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Sandy, you are so right.... the passenger lists remain, in lots of cases, a stumbling block to finding out more about our ancestors. I have found cases in my own research where the people are not listed (even when other sources confirm a particular ship), or their names were incorrectly spelled... etc etc. I am hopeful, and not discouraged..... more time and more sources often throw up small facts which lead to fantastic information!!
The possible John White was an option.... and it could still be that he travelled from Australia. I am all too aware that travellers between Australia and NZ were even MORE likely not to appear on lists!
The Otago settlers Museum sounds like a great option and I will write to them. Names of the children give no clues, unfortunately, but from school records index I have seen that the family was resident at 'Blueskin Rd, Port Chalmers' for many years. It is possible that records of the Port Chalmers School has something on them..... about 9 of the children had some schooling there, so that is another possibility. I'll keep on chipping away, and thanks for everyone's input!!
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Hi again,
If your family were based at or around Port Chalmers I would also suggest contacting the Port Chalmers Museum. Request a search of their database Port Chalmers Early People. It's an excellent resource!
If they don't appear in this database I strongly suggest that you submit an entry, and if they do it is possible to add information to an existing one. I wish more towns had such a reference available.
Spades
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Thanks, Spades, I can request a look up from the NZGS, as they hold a copy of the 'Early People' archive, so I will do that straight away. I was able to connect with one other researcher of this family, who encountered the same brick wall as myself and has been unable to go further. However with 9 living children of John WHITE and Mary NELLEN, at least 8 of whom married and had families there must be some information out there..... it is a matter of when something comes to light!! Thanks a lot for your replies!
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Thanks everyone - I did request the ITM's for Mary and John, and also these records for a couple of other ancestors I needed to check. What I DID find was that the 'Residence' column was interpreted differently by various offices/officials - another person assisting me confirmed that apparently no guidelines were given out with the forms so local officials made their own interpretation of what was meant … ie, whether this meant time in NZ or time in that place.... specifically that Parish.
Hi familysleuth
Mmm ... that's not a "story" I've ever heard. ???
The rules pertaining to "Notice of Intended Marriage" are clearly spelled out in The Marriage Act 1854 and one would expect that Government-appointed Registrars and Ministers of the various faiths, would therefore be well acquainted with the requirements of same.
That's not to say though that there weren't instances of errors made by those either volunteering or recording such information.
~ Lu
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Lucy, you are quite correct: the Marriage Act says
Notice of intended Marriage. In every case of intended Marriage, it will be requisite that one of the persons intending Marriage give notice, under his or her hand (in the form specified in Schedule A. annexed to the Act), to the Registrar of the district in which one of the persons shall have dwelt for not less than three days; and if they dwell in different districts, notice must be given to the Registrar of each district. The notice must state the age, name, and surname, calling or profession, condition, (whether bachelor or widower, spinster or widow), and dwelling-place of each of the persons: — also, the time that each of them has dwelt in the district, and the Church, Building, or Place in which the Marriage is intended to be solemnized.
..... that being said, errors..... answers to the question 'how long have you lived here?'...... could well have been interpreted by the people themselves in different ways. I'll be cautious with the ITM but its really useful for firming up ages where the marriage reg only says 'full age'... and if there was a relative to give an underage person away. thanks a lot for your post which has given me the correct answer!
cheers,
Louise
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I have a copy of the 20 page family history you are trying to find. I am A descendant of Prudence. I live in Dunedin NZ. You can email me directly (*)
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