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General => Armed Forces => World War One => Topic started by: meathmitchell on Friday 22 June 12 02:20 BST (UK)
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I've recently found the burial place in Leeds of a friends long lost uncle. He served with the British in WW1 and died in 1924. He'd buried in an unmarked paupers grave. I was wondering if anyone knew does the war graves commission put up gravestones for veterans who died after the war?
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Probably very soon after the war but not generally. My in-law Michael Heaviside VC, Private, Durham Light Infantry, survived WWI, died and was buried just before WW2. No grave marker. Years later one was put up by the Durham Light Infantry Association. Not by the Commonwealth War Graves Commission.
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cheers for that. He was with the rifle brigade of the royal garrison artillery. I wonder do they have an association like that?
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Most of the old regiments are still represented but Michael Heavisde was a Victoria Cross holder and some type of organization will make sure VC's have a marker whenever possible.
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Servicemen (and women) of the First World War only qualified for CWGC commemoration if they died between 4 Aug 1914 and 31 Aug 1921; and, if the soldier had been discharged, only if the cause of his death was attributable to his service - i.e. wounds, injuries or disease contracted during service.
Adrian
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suicide as a result of shell shock unfortunately - not sure if the CWGC would accept that though
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is he buried in the consecrated ground part of the cemetery or no that may have had a bearing on why he is in a paupers grave , the church were quite iffy about suicide victims back then as some thought it a sin to take ones own life never thinking of why or the circumstances behind it , or the torment he was going through .
regards
trevor
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suicide as a result of shell shock unfortunately - not sure if the CWGC would accept that though
Not sure if expressed myself clearly above!
Even if his death was proven to be attributable to his service, the CWGC will not accept him because he died after 31 Aug 1921.
See http://www.infromthecold.org/war_grave_criteria.asp for a better explanation!
Adrian
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thanks for the help lads. Your correct about the catholic church's attitude to suicide back then - thankfully times have changed. There seems to have been several unrelated people buried in this paupers grave over a very short time - this indicates to me it was on consecrated grounds - i doubt they weren't all suicides. His niece is very religious and is having a mass said for him, i'm going to look into having his name inscribed on the headstone or some marker put on the grave.
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Hi
Buried in a paupers grave and buried in a common grave aren't quite the same thing and our ancestors would largely be appalled that we thought they were. They scrimped and saved where they could to make sure the funeral and burial were paid for and their loved ones did not receive a pauper's funeral. What they couldn't afford was the cost of the burial plot as well. With cremation nowadays so popular subsequent burial in common graves isn't the necessity it once was because the cost of a burial plot would still be beyond the means of many families - they aren't cheap.
Types of graves in cemeteries (information from Beckett Street Cemetery Leeds)
http://beckettstreetcemetery.org.uk/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=14&Itemid=1
Was he buried by the poor law guardians or an institution if he was placed in one and not by his family?
Any stigma around the burials of suicides historically was only ever for suicides that were deemed to have taken their lives while of sound mind. Coroner's juries were very sympathetic and rarely brought in this judgement so there was absolutely no issue with burials for suicides who were not deemed felons - the felony of taking a life, which was always a minority of suicides. Even these suicides were allowed the right to burials in churchyards by an 1823 law and a full burial service was legally allowed by 1882.
See the last post on this topic for further information on suicide burials.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,403492.30.html
Regards
Valda
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i feel i have to respond to one comment made regarding suicide while of sound mind it seems to me to be a sweeping statement how can any poor soul be deemed of sound mind when in the act of taking there own life as most of these acts are not premeditated but an act of desperation and for relief from whatever ails them .
regards
trevor
ps meathmitchell may i say that if you are serious regarding placing some sort of marker on the chaps grave then i applaude your action no one should go unnoticed especially when having served there country .
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Hi
Felo de se was the legal term
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felo_de_se
It wasn't a comment by me as in a personal opinion, but a statement of fact on how previous societies' viewed suicide. It wasn't until 1961 that suicide was decriminalised and failed suicides no longer had the possibility of facing prosecution. This was still happening in the 1950s as illustrated in the second link with some people actually going to prison for their 'crime'.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_Act_1961
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-14374296
Regards
Valda
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hi valda
so sorry i didn,t make myself clear enough in that i wasn,t in anyway saying that what you had posted was a personal comment , as i had realised you were only stating facts and nothing more .
my apologise you thought differently .
best wishes
trevor