RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Somerset => Topic started by: Trees on Thursday 21 June 12 01:00 BST (UK)
-
an anyone identify this pub please
RG11/2430 fo 44 p13
1 Alfred Place Twerton Somerset
John Bale Inn Keeper
Does that address still exist?
I hope some one can help ;)
Trees
-
amended
-
I think the whole area is gone. :(
I will look further, but I think the area where Alfred Place used to might be around where PC World and Somer Community Housing Trust Buildings are today. All new builds I'm afraid. :(
The enumeration district was bounded by Lower Bristol Road to the south (still there today), the River Avon to the north (still there today), Mill Lane to the west. (I'm not yet sure exactly where that was but there is still a Twerton Mill which may have been on Mill Lane?), and Dredgers Bridge Road to the east (hard to say where that was - perhaps what is now Fieldings Road which leads to a bridge crossing the river?).
There are very few roads mentioned in the enumeration district - Longmead St is one which appears to be quite long but I haven't located it as yet. There are lots of 'Buildings', Villas and houses named but nothing that can be used as a landmark to identify where Alfred Place used to stand. It was obviously on a corner though as you'd expect of a pub numbered "1". :)
I have to go out now, but will do some more digging later.
-
Many thanks for that you are narrowing the area down nicely which will help when we can get hold of an old map I wonder if the Licenccing recognaisances are available at the RO we have not been to Taunton since the new RO opened but its on the list of places to get to ;D
Cheers
Trees
-
Hi
Buried in Kevan's Deadpubs.co.uk is
(1902) Golden Fleece, G. O. King, 1 Avon buildings, Twerton, Bath
You don't suppose 1 Avon Buildngs is also 1 Alfred Place?
Ray
-
Hi Trees,
I looked at the Historical Newspapers site, and there's a snippet from the Bristol Mercury dated 11 April 1892 -
From the County Police Court report - "John Bale of Twerton pleaded guilty to refusing to quit the Charmbury Arms, but denied assaulting William Slip, the Landlord on the 2nd inst. The Magistrates dismissed the case of assault, but for the refusal to quit, imposed on Bale a fine of 20s to cover costs, or 14 days"
That pub is still there - but not the one from the census I think.
There was also a report in an earlier paper (25 September 1882) about John Bale being refused the renewal of a licence in Twerton, but unfortunately doesn't name the pub.
Yorkslass
-
Oh wow that is interesting I wonder if it was the Golden Fleece I wonder if Kevan has any more information on it and was John Bale a drunkard leading to that assult and the reason for not having his licence renewed. He was only a first cousin 4 times removed but I seem to collect pubs ;D
-
Hi
Longmead Terrace was (is) the part next to the birdge at the junction with Brougham Hayes.
Pub and brewery opposite, need to check it against the census route
Link
http://www.old-maps.co.uk/maps.html
1886 Town Plans Bath
Co-ords of 374000 164730 got it for me
(Mr Bales is a labourer in 1891)
Some bits re Golden Fleece (if that's what in was) here
http://www.proudoftwerton.com/index.html
... and having said all of that, not the Golden Fleece?
http://bathpubs.co.uk/tag/golden-fleece/
Ray
-
PO directory 1876/77 Golden Fleece Fielding's Bldg Joseph REYNOLD so was Fielding's Building become Avon's Building seems unlikely to be two Golden Fleece Inns in Twerton I think the Golden Fleece is the most likely name Ruskie mentioned Fieldings Road in post 2 so that looks good
Many thanks for your help
Trees
-
However ???
I think that this address is Queens Head in a later id
Apparently . . . . .
1901 Census (DATE: 31 MARCH 1901)
ADDRESS:- 33 Victoria Bgs., Twerton, Bath, SOMERSET
(Ref RG13/2334.13.18)
John BRYANT Head M 24 Licensed Victualler Gloster Fishponds
Rose Wife M 26 Warwick Birmingham
Ben HAWKER Boarder S 21 Licensed Victualler’s Asst Gloster Bedminster
R
-
Oh dear how big was Twerton how many Inns would it support in the 1880 ?
-
Hi
If you read the 3 or 4 history articles (on proudoftwerton) you realise "a few"
Ray
Yeah, and i thought it'd be easy too ::) ::)
-
I am attempting to get a abetter idea of where Alfred Place was using a modern map and comparing with old maps.
I'm not having much luck, because now that oldmaps has removed many of it's useful features - it's a real slog to try to get anywhere, though frustratingly they have a rather nice 1885 town plan which is difficult to access. So a small search which would usually take a few minutes is taking a very long time. >:(
I think that the area in question may be a bit further to the east of Fieldings Rd. A couple of places mentioned in the area around Alfred Place, such as Albert Buildings, Victoria Buildings and Roseberry Place are a bit further east along Lower Bristol Road.
-
What year map are you looking for?
My dad's friend collects old maps of Bath so if you give me all the details of the search including years then I can pass the question on.
-
we are trying to establish the name of the Inn at 1 Alfred Place Twerton in 1881
Many thanks for the offer
Trees
-
Trying to locate this book as it might help.
Swift, A., and Elliot K. (2005) The Lost Pubs of Bath, p.128
-
Full history of Twerton and not a mention of Alfred Place, still waiting to hear back from other source.
http://www.bathnes.gov.uk/SiteCollectionDocuments/Environment%20and%20Planning/Planning/Documents/Historical%20Survey%20-%20High%20Street%20Twerton%20Part%201.pdf
http://www.bathnes.gov.uk/SiteCollectionDocuments/Environment%20and%20Planning/Planning/Documents/Historical%20Survey%20-%20High%20Street%20Twerton%20Part%202.pdf
-
Post Office Bath Directory 1884-85
Alfred Place
1
2 Spicer George, wheelchairman
Very frustrating finding a blank entry for No 1 above (George Spicer is on the '81 census)
The Bath Chronicle & Weekly Gazette Thur 28 March 1901
SALE OF FREEHOLD PROPERTIES and BUSINESS PREMISES in OLDFIELD PARK and TWERTON on AVON
Lot 5 - Freehold Dwelling House and Shop with a large Yard, now known as
1, Longmead Street, Twerton,
formerly known as 1, Alfred Place, Twerton. Let for many years at 6s week landlord paying rates and taxes but recently became void. This lot is subject to an apportioned yearly ground rent of £2.
regards
-
Post Office Bath Directory 1895
Longmead Street (East Twerton)
1 Turner William, Butcher
Alfred Place no longer appears in this Directory
regards
-
Bath Chronicle & Weekly Gazette Thur 30 Dec 1880
"... the house of John Bale, at No 1 Alfred Place, Twerton....... Ann Bale, wife ....(who keeps a small grocer's shop and holds an outdoor beer licence) ...."
regards
-
Great strides forward with all your help many thanks everyone. So the street name changed and it looks like John Bale has got himself in a spot of bother one way or another
I have now found them in 1891 at 2 Longmead StreetThe picture is building up nicely so why has he moved next door in 1891 he was listed as a general labourer and his wife Louisa Ann was a laundress
Trees
-
Ooo-er,
Another newspaper report. Bristol Mercury again, November 21, 1896 at the Police Court, Bath.
"John Bale was summoned for committing an aggravated assault upon his wife, Louisa Ann Bale on the 4th inst., whereupon she prayed for a separation. Neither of the parties appeared. The clerk said that when the applicant applied for a summons, she was in a deplorable condition. He had seen nothing in the way of a black eye like it before. A letter was read from applicant's daughter, to say that her mother was ill, so that she asked for an adjournment until the following Saturday. This was granted."
The annoying thing is, I can't find them in the next weeks paper!
Yorkslass
-
It sounds like it may not have been a pub as we know it - rather a private house with a licence to sell alcohol. I believe this happened a lot in the past with folks selling from their front rooms. If you look at some of the maps of the time, there was a 'malting' or some such place in the area around Alfred Place. Longmead Street existed on the 1881 census, so I am just wondering if Alfred Place was simply a small alley or courtyard on the corner of Longmead which was later encorporated into Longmead St?
-
Ooh another real rogue on the tree! How do I get at these papers Yorkslass they sound a great resource
Ruskie that sounds a good theory I have over 100 publicans on the tree several setting up in the "front room" so to speak but others in really ancient houses one was set up by monks to give refreshment and rest to pilgrims then it was known as The Jesus House but later became The Dog we laugh and think it was the reverse of ..well you work it out ;D Even the cottage inns had a sign they were known by though For example our Anchor was set up on the bank of a canal and had a real anchor at the door . When the family moved to the Dog mentioned above they took the anchor with them and for a short time the house was known as the dog and anchor later it reverted to the old name The Dog. The house they had set up as the Anchor then became The railway as the line had been built close to it may be my lot moved out while it was being built the timing was right.But I am straying off the topic.
Back to bad John poor Louisa it was hard to get a separation back then I hope he was given a restraining order too if not a time at His majesties pleasure I wonder how she would have supported herself. Did it mention which daughter by any chance I know of five so far and four sons her last known child was born and died 1893 when louisa was 40/41 which all fits nicely.
Iam really enjoying this chase Many thanks
Trees
Added: the oldest daughter would have been 15 in 1896 gosh it would be hard for her to support the family single handed
-
There is a photograph on a tree on Ancestry showing John Louisa and a daughter taken in 1916 so it looks like they did not separate poor Louisa is wearing dark glasses did he do permanent damage and repent I wonder
Oh no in 1911 they are together and it says she is totally blind for 14 years
I cant find them i 1901 yet
so it looks like he has blinded her why has she had him back oh gosh this is no longer funny Poor Louisa
-
Oh dear, I looked at that photo, how sad .....
Trees, the site I use is the British Historical Newspapers site, and I can access it from home using my library card number.
I also looked at the British Newspaper Archive, though I don't have a subscription, but you can see "snippets".
Like this one, from the "Western Daily Press" dated 22 September, 1879. Looks like the premises were called the "Alfred Tavern", and John was applying for an outdoor beer licence.
Actually, there are a few on this page that probably refer to "your" John.
Hope the link works - http://www.rootschat.com/links/0nxs/
Yorkslass
-
I grew up in Twerton and have looked with your comments and links with interest........don't know where Alfred Street is likely to be.........but this is another link that might give more information on Twerton and it's changes.
http://www.twerton.com/twertonhistory/index.php/twerton/
Anne
-
Again many thanks for two interesting links I now have a big priority list to visit the new RO in Taunton to see what else can be found they are not main line but oh so interesting
I'll settle for the Alfred Tavern it sounds very plausible it would be interesting to see if it is on any maps I wonder if the quarter sessions books will tell more about when he had the licence first and then about it being revoked Of all my "Pubs" its the first to have its licence revoked
I have found them in 1901 mistranscribed as BALL on FindMyPast
RG13/2344 fo101 p7
they are together and she is down as blind 4 years her name given as Ann again.
It looks like she did not continue the charges against him perhaps she was too scared to be left allone and better the devil you know its a painful story to uncover
-
Right, good news. I have located Alfred Place and Longmead Street and have maps and photos.
I will attempt to get them scanned and marked up by this evening and upload them to my family photo gallery and post the links.
What is really bizzare is that the book I found the photo on has been on my desk since Christmas as I was borrowing it from my dad for something else.
For Ref: I got the map 1886 Town Plan from http://www.old-maps.co.uk/index.html and pieced it together.
-
Here you go, let me know if you cannot see the images.
http://www.familytreegallery.bilsdon.com/index.php/Alfred-Place
What was confusing was that the road was not in twerton as I know of it today, it was in East Twerton and was built on top of by Stothert & Pitt.
It was parallel to the Lower Bristol Road on the other side of the railway lines. The Victoria Supsension Bridge is still there and still be walked over.
I was an Apprentice at Stothert & Pitt in 1989 and my father and grand father worked for the company before it closed. It is a funny feeling thinking that I would have walked over the spot where the house was many times as it was roughly in the middel of the crance yard.
The whole site has almost been rebuilt again recently with flats.
Any how, hope you find these photos as interesting as I have?
Please feel free to leave comments on the gallery site.
-
Great detective awb the photo shows the house had a shop front just as we have found well done a great addition to the story.Many thanks for sharing it with us :)
trees
-
I too was confused by "Twerton", as I grew up in the Council estate which was at the other end of Twerton, and that wasn't Twerton as I knew it. My Aunt lived at St Peter's Terrace in the late '50s, so I know now where the pub was
Good detective work, I think that the site has car show rooms on what was Alfred Terrace. Funnily enough there are going to be loads of houses all along the site, like there was 100 years ago.
I remember seeing the Stothert's men coming out of work, cycling in droves........I would wait on the corner by the canteen, for a boy I had a passion for at the time!
Well done and really interesting
Anne
-
Hi Ann the newspapers that Hannes Teulu found prove there never was a pub it was a grocer's shop with an "off" or "outdoor" licence John was convicted a couple of times for allowing drink to be consumed on the premises against his License and eventually lost it completely I think it was a bit of bravado puting Inn Keeper as his occupation in 1881
Its good to find a few thorns amongst the branches of the family tree it makes a very interesting story. Strangely its the ones that stray off the straight and narrow that are easier to find things about.
Trees
-
I have no connections whatsoever with the area, nor have I ever visited it, but I find the images fascinating awb. Thanks for posting them.
I now see how I missed finding Alfred Terrace on any old maps - I was looking for a small road rather than a small terrace of four houses. ;) On some maps some of the larger terraces were named but I couldn't find one which mentioned Alfred Terrace.
A successful result - well done! :)
-
Sorry, I missed the fact that the premises was an "offy"......... :(
I think (as long as it doesn't upset older relatives) to find a few "thorn" amongst the roses is great.
I have one ancestor who was held in gaol for a month accused of "receiving stolen goods" (a cheese his brother had lifted off the back of a wagon) but the depositions do give a snapshot of their living conditions, and theworry that their father must have gone through when they were accused.