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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Lancashire => England => Lancashire Lookup Requests => Topic started by: gainduff on Saturday 16 June 12 04:55 BST (UK)
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Trying to trace parents/siblings of Robert Brogden of Bolton, born abt 1812.
As far as I know he married a Elizabeth Abrams/Abrahams at St Nicholas Liverpool in Nov 1835.
1841 census has him in Upper Henderson St, West Derby, with wife and family. Subsequently he resided in Birkenhead until his death in 1879; a shipwright by trade.
Have tried variations on name and possibility that it was Bolton Yorks, but nothing seems to fit. IGI has a Robert Brogdin christened in Manchester in 1811 by Marshall Brogdin, but don't know how likely that is, and cant trace a Marshall apart from a death in Huddersfield in 1854?
Any ideas?
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The 1841 census has he and Elizabeth with children Ann 5, Mary 3, Elizabeth 1 living in Toxteth Park
HO107/568 book 16 folio 10 page 12. This census says Not born in county for all of them.
All later censuses have them living in Birkenhead but Robert always born in Bolton Lancashire.
From 1851 on Ann 1837, Mary 1838, Elizabeth 1841, and Thomas 1842 all born Birkenhead.
Elizabeth the mother is also born Runcorn Cheshire.
The only child born in Liverpool is James 1846 Then it is back to Birkenhead for Eleanor 1849 John 1851, William 1856 and george
Getting a birth cert for one of his children will give you the mother's maiden name and then a marriage may be easier to find.
Could the marriage have been in Elizabeth's home county? and where the first 3 children were born.
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Possibly James' birth
James Brogden
FreeBMD
March 1/4 1846 Liverpool 20/536
I have been looking at everything you have probably already looked at and there is not even a hint :(
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St Thomas Ardwick
17th of November 1816
Maria Brogden
daughter of Marchel and Sarah
father a labourer
abode Ardwick
13th of December 1818
Sarah Brogden
daughter of Marshall Brogden and Sarah
abode Ardwick
father a gardener
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1841 census
Carrathy Croft ?
Dewsbury Yorkshire
HO107/1268
Marshall Brogden aged 65,gardener
Sarah Brogden aged 50,
Frederic Brogden aged 15,apprentice
Marshall Brogden aged 5
all born in county
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Frederick marries Sarah Fox, Dewsbury 1845, father Marshall a gardener
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Hi Crisane, yes this is the family; they ended up with 10 children?. Didn't realise 1841 census had all of them out of county births. Knew Elizabeth Abrams/Abrahams born in Cheshire. Working on info from online records for St Nicholas for marriage on 16 Nov 1835.
Thanks Radcliff, is this St Thomas Ardwick the one in Greater Manchester? now the St Thomas Centre, just south of the city centre? Seems to fit with what I have subsequently found out about Marshall; born Ilkley 1773ish illegitimate son of Margaret Brogden, married a Sarah from Mytholmroyd and in 1841 a gardener which seems to tie in with your records for Ardwick; possibly died Dewsbury Aug 1854. Now I need to try and trace the marriage between Marshall and Sarah.
Thanks again for all the info.
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The marriage is on
www.lan-opc.org.uk/Search/indexp.html
if you put in
robert brogden
all events
search
you will find the marriage- they were married by Montague Hawtrey
Robert - a Shipwright
Elizabeth Abrams a spinster
there is a possible baptism .which is close to Bolton ....have a look and see what you think
allan
ADDED...how far is Downham (Pendle Hill ) from Bolton ?...anyone know...just checked ...25 miles ...seems a bit far
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Thanks garstonite, think I'd looked at the Downham baptism but as far as I can remember ties in with subsequent census entries for Brogdens in Burnley and Whalley?
Still can't make out the Bolton connection, if my Robert was baptised at Manchester Cathedral 21 Jul 1811.
Would there be any Bolton records of pew rents for Marshall Brogdin/Brogden or other records pre official census to prove residence in the area.?
Alternatively was there an area within Manchester called Bolton in the early 19th century?
Another thought I had was that I remember seeing posts regarding Brogdens in Bolton being of Irish descent, so perhaps he was in fact Irish; just seems to me a long way to go to baptise your child, Bolton to the Manchester cathedral. But having said that have had no luck tracing a Robert Brogden born Manchester around 1811/12 in subsequent census returns.
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Is it at all possible that the 'Bolton' connection is Bolton by Bowland? This was regarded as Yorkshire - and in local parish records was referred to as 'Bolton'. This is just a thought with your mention of Downham.
Regards June
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Is it at all possible that the 'Bolton' connection is Bolton by Bowland? This was regarded as Yorkshire - and in local parish records was referred to as 'Bolton'. This is just a thought with your mention of Downham.
Regards June
That`s great info June...just been on Wiki...and according to Wiki - Downham is in Lancashire and is 5.4 miles from Bolton by Bowland ...so just over 5 miles makes the Downham baptism well worth looking into...I presume both these towns are on the Lancashire / Yorkshire border and may have changed counties over the years ?
Now going off the subject.of Downham/Bolton by Bowland..in the 1851 census there is a Robert Brogden aged 39 born in BELTON,Lincolnshire....so born 1811/1812...is he worth researching ?..
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My Robert Brogden is happily living in Birkenhead by the 1851 census; and was already in Liverpool by 1841
June, have looked at Yorkshire possibilities including the Downham/Whalley area, following censuses forward, there is a Robert Brogden who seems to fit for Downham in Burnley for 1861. Also looked at Bilton near Wetherby, but census data seems to suggest again any possible Robert stayed within that area.
Don't know if I am clutching at straws but just found that there was an area in Salford called Little Bolton, don't know whether that could be the Bolton link that would fit with Marshall being his father. Of course Marshall seems to have moved around quite a bit so it could be he resided in Bolton for a period, as there is a gap between the birth of Robert around 1811 and the next child Maria, christened in Ardwick in 1816
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There are some on line readable parish records for Bolton by Bowland (or Bolton by Bolland - as it used to be known. Unfortunately these are before the time of Robert Brogden's birth - covering only 1558-1724.
I did a search on 'Brogden' to see if there WAS a family of that name there - but there wasn't. It would of course depend on the name being spelt in the records as Brogden.
If you are interested visit;
http://www.archive.org/stream/parishregisterof01bolt#page/n5/mode/2up
There are lots of other 'e' books of parish registers on that site for other counties also. Just ensure you tick 'only show e books' after inputting your search criteria - and before clicking 'search'!
Regards June
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I have just discovered that a Robert Brogden aged 10 months, the child of Marshall Brogden and Sarah, was buried on 15.5.1812 (having sadly died on 12.5.1812.)
His burial took place at the 'Bible Christian Congregation' in King St Salford. The parent's abode is shown as 31 Chapel st, Ardwick Green.
This burial is amongst the Non conformist records on Family Search - with the full record being available on The Genealogist website (I have a subscription).
Hence this eliminates the Robert, son of Marshall - unless Marshall and Sarah named a subsequent child, Robert - who was born soon after the other one died.
Regards June
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Thanks for the information June.
Think my Robert will be a bit of brickwall for a while longer.
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What did Robert name his eldest son? Possibly he named him after his own father, which often happened. Maybe that's worth investigating in the absence of any other clues.
Regards June
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Hi June
First son Thomas Hall Brogden
then James, John, George and William
Most Brogdens seem to be to the North Northeast of Burnley area, so its just trying to make the connection with Bolton, not helped by the two families in Bolton at the time having a Robert born 1806.
Will investigate the Hall name perhaps maiden name of a possible mother? Can't find Halls on his wife's side. No others in Bolton area for the dates, unless Eccles and Dalton near Wigan which seem marginally closer than the Downham/Whalley/Whitewell concentration of Brogdens to the north east of the county/
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Don't know if you have looked at this Marshall
Marshall Brogden illegitimate son of Margaret Brogden
Baptised 18 February 1775
Ilkley, West Yorks
Heather
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Hi Heather,
I think the possible Marshall connection has now been eliminated -- as the Robert with a father named Marshall - sadly died aged 10 months old.
According to census and parish records, Bolton is not a 'hot spot' for people named Brogden. I am wondering if Robert's family (whoever they were!) - moved into Bolton for a while when Robert was very young. As a result he only THOUGHT he was born there.
Other than that I am stumped. I have investigated whether Robert was illegitimate and born to someone named Hall - who then married a Brogden -- but nothing comes up for that.
The Thomas Hall Brogden is on someone's tree on Ancestry - he emigrated to Australia. However there is no father for Robert Brogden on there either. It's a mystery.
Regards June
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Yes I think I am coming to the same conclusion, that perhaps he was in Bolton for a time or that is what he remembered? but born elsewhere,
Can't trace any Robert around the same dates, or any matching marriages for Brogden/Hall/Wall in a timeframe that would work.
But thanks for all the suggestions