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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Warwickshire => England => Warwickshire Lookup Requests => Topic started by: Philly007 on Friday 15 June 12 11:38 BST (UK)

Title: Aston Juxta Birmingham
Post by: Philly007 on Friday 15 June 12 11:38 BST (UK)
Hi Everyone
I am relatively new to ancestry research and have just registered at Rootschat.com in the hope someone may be able to look up the details of one of my ancestor's wedding at Aston Juxta, Birmingham for me.
The details I have are:
Joseph ALLARD (born Packwood 1816) married Lydia WRAGG on 30 July 1835.
I have very little information about these two other than some of their children's names: Henry, Harriet Elizabeth and William.
I believe other family members researching,have had the same problem as well.
Please Help.    ???  ???
Title: Re: Aston Juxta Birmingham
Post by: Keitht on Friday 15 June 12 11:57 BST (UK)
Hi Philly and welcome to Rootschat.

As you probably already realise, this marriage took plce before the introduction of civil registrations so you will need to consult the parish records for Aston, probably SS Peter & Paul, the parish church. These are held in the archive department at Birmingham Cntral Library, which can be contacted as follows:
Birmingham Archives and Heritage, Central Library, Chamberlain Square, Birmingham B3 3HQ. Tel: 0121 303 4549. Email: archives.heritage@birmingham.gov.uk ...

I'm sorry I can't offer to look this up fpr you, as for the moment I am unable to get to the library.

Good luck with your search.

Keith
Title: Re: Aston Juxta Birmingham
Post by: MargP on Friday 15 June 12 13:36 BST (UK)
Hi Philly and a warm welcome to Roots

A possible Baptist Record

Lydia Wragg
Baptised 24 May 1812
North Wingfield Derby
Father John Wragg
Mother Betty

I have found 2 additional children to the one's you mentioned

Mary Ann Allered
Baptised 21 Oct Bordesley

Eliza Jane Allard
20 July Bordesley

I have found nothing for Joseph Allard other than the census which presume you have

Margp
Title: Re: Aston Juxta Birmingham
Post by: jim1 on Friday 15 June 12 14:16 BST (UK)
The Packwood PR's don't show any Allard Christenings & the only Allard on the census who claims to be from Packwood is Joseph.

jim
Title: Re: Aston Juxta Birmingham
Post by: MargP on Friday 15 June 12 14:20 BST (UK)
Yes Jim I have been through them all and not a one
Title: Re: Aston Juxta Birmingham
Post by: jim1 on Friday 15 June 12 14:36 BST (UK)
The NBI shows 80% of all Warks. Allards came from Grandborough Rugby.

jim
Title: Re: Aston Juxta Birmingham
Post by: ciderdrinker on Friday 15 June 12 16:09 BST (UK)
Dear Jim
Been to Birmingham and had a look
Joseph Allard of this parish married Lydia Wragg of this parish by banns .Both signed.£0.7.1835.
Witnesses William Eusor made mark and Jane Elizabeth Burnston?definately B *nton signed.
Also had a look at Warwickshire land tax 1820- Thomas Allard Packwood rented land of Robert Short for 4s and 4d
Had a look 1798-1820 .There is a baptism of a Joseph  illegitamate son of Elizabeth Gilbert 29.6.1814 Packwood but no baptisms for Allards or others who  might fit.
Ciderdrinker
Title: Re: Aston Juxta Birmingham
Post by: jim1 on Friday 15 June 12 16:20 BST (UK)
Well done.
Still can't find any Allards in Packwood but there's this burial which looks interesting:
Thomas Alward d.April 1865 aged 78 from Packwood.
There's also a Thomas Alward d.1882 Packwood aged 67.
There are others.

jim
Title: Re: Aston Juxta Birmingham
Post by: ciderdrinker on Friday 15 June 12 16:31 BST (UK)
Baptism Thomas Hollard 7.1.1787 to William and Mary Packwood
Others anne 26.12.1770,Thomas 8.4.1784,burial 14.4.1784
William Alward s of Thomas and Ann carpenter  25.1.1821 Packwood
Can't see any siblings
But 1841 there are Thomas Allard 25 carpenter and William 20 painter at Packwood.Thomas baptised 18.4.1814 at Solihull to Thomas and Ann.
Ciderdrinker
Title: Re: Aston Juxta Birmingham
Post by: jim1 on Friday 15 June 12 16:36 BST (UK)
These are the only 2 Alwards I can see with parents Thomas & ann.Can't see a Joseph anywhere.
Thomas is listed as a carpenter on the entries.
I think it's the right family & the name has several variations.

jim
Title: Re: Aston Juxta Birmingham
Post by: MargP on Friday 15 June 12 16:36 BST (UK)
Dear Jim
Been to Birmingham and had a look
Joseph Allard of this parish married Lydia Wragg of this parish by banns .Both signed.£0.7.1835.
Witnesses William Eusor made mark and Jane Elizabeth Burnston?definately B *nton signed.
Also had a look at Warwickshire land tax 1820- Thomas Allard Packwood rented land of Robert Short for 4s and 4d
Had a look 1798-1820 .There is a baptism of a Joseph  illegitamate son of Elizabeth Gilbert 29.6.1814 Packwood but no baptisms for Allards or others who  might fit.
Ciderdrinker
I wonder if Elizabeth Gilbert married a Allard ????
Title: Re: Aston Juxta Birmingham
Post by: ciderdrinker on Friday 15 June 12 16:44 BST (UK)
No only marriage I can find is 17.6.1831 Elizabeth Gilbert and Charles Morris bach and sp Packwood wit Thomas Morris and James Gregory.
Ciderdrinker
Could Thomas and Ann have gone elsewhere?
Will 1865 leaves money to Thomas and William Allward
and 1841 Thomas 50 carpenter and Mary 45 both yes








Title: Re: Aston Juxta Birmingham
Post by: jim1 on Friday 15 June 12 16:59 BST (UK)
William & Thomas married 2 sister called Gopsill.The family were all in the building trades which makes me think Joseph is part of it somewhere as he's a plumber/glazier.

jim
Title: Re: Aston Juxta Birmingham
Post by: Philly007 on Friday 15 June 12 17:36 BST (UK)
Hi Everyone,
What can I say but what a great lot of people there are out there. When I saw my replies I was absolutely thrilled!!
I have Joseph Allard and his wife Lydia on the 1841 and 1861 census -Aston Birmingham, can't find him on the 1871 census though. I have not found his date of death or burial record. I have also have traced the records of their childrens christenings: Eliza Jane, Henry, Harriet Elizabeth and William Allard and have  found a site that says Lydia Wragg came from Handley, Derbyshire, any further help would be much appreciated.  :D
Title: Re: Aston Juxta Birmingham
Post by: Philly007 on Friday 15 June 12 18:20 BST (UK)
Many thanks to MargP, I have found the other two children you listed and am about to research the Baptist record.
Ciderdrinker ( a man with similar tastes to my husband) thank you so much, I am going to look into  the Thomas Allard lead and Jim1 I have found many Allards listed in records at Grandborough but none that seem to fit in with Joseph Allard born Packwood.
I am researching the ancestors of Henry John Allard who died in 1978.
A big thanks to you all.
Title: Re: Aston Juxta Birmingham
Post by: MargP on Friday 15 June 12 20:04 BST (UK)
Hi Philly

1851 Census

Joseph Allard b 1816 Packwood
Lydia b 1812 Handley Derbyshire
William b 1837 Birmingham
Mary A B 1839 ditto
Henry b 1842 ditto
Jane b 1845 ditto
Harriett b 1848

I can't see them after this, I have checked to see if they emigrated, no luck, I have also check for death's for Joseph and Lydia no luck, usually if people disappear of the census the have either died or emigrated, or have been abducted by aliens lol

Marg
Title: Re: Aston Juxta Birmingham
Post by: jim1 on Friday 15 June 12 22:30 BST (UK)
1861:
RG9/2172/134/37

jim
Title: Re: Aston Juxta Birmingham
Post by: jim1 on Friday 15 June 12 22:42 BST (UK)
The Allard children seem to be still around after 1861,so it looks like they died.

jim
Title: Re: Aston Juxta Birmingham
Post by: MargP on Friday 15 June 12 22:53 BST (UK)
I would like your thoughts on this
 
I have done a one name search on Allard for birth in Aston, this brings up the following

Mary Ann 1838
Henry 1841
HORATIO 1843 July Qtr Vol 16, Page 115 Aston
Eliza Jane 1844

I then find a Burial Record for
Horatia Allard 3 April 1845
St George Birmingham

I then find the following Baptist Records

Mary Anna Emma Allard
Birth 10 Aug 1813
Baptised 21 April 1814
St Phillip
Father William Allard
Mother Anna

John HORATIA Allard
Baptised 26 April 1819 St Martin's
Father William
Mother Ann

Caroline Olivia Allard
Birth 6 Feb 1821
Baptised 6 Feb 1822 St Martin's
Father William
Mother Hannah

I think that this may be Joseph's family if Horatio b 1843 is Joseph and Lydia's

Title: Re: Aston Juxta Birmingham
Post by: jim1 on Saturday 16 June 12 00:24 BST (UK)
John's father William was a haberdasher living in the Bull Ring.
Caroline's father William was a baker living in Digbeth.
It doesn't sound like the family we're looking for as they all seem to be in the building trade.
There's also a Thomas living in B'ham a carpenter who I think is one of the Packwood All(w)ards.
Title: Re: Aston Juxta Birmingham
Post by: MargP on Saturday 16 June 12 09:05 BST (UK)
1851 Census

John Horatio Allard b 1820 Occupation Carpenter
Mary Ann b 1821
Emma b 1841
John b 1843

Marg
Title: Re: Aston Juxta Birmingham
Post by: jim1 on Saturday 16 June 12 11:06 BST (UK)
I think Joseph Allard is going to remain a mystery except to say he's probably part of the extended family of Allard/Alward.
I haven't found anything new.

jim
Title: Re: Aston Juxta Birmingham
Post by: MargP on Saturday 16 June 12 15:06 BST (UK)
It's the Horatio name that makes me think John Horatio Allard may be Joseph brother, Horatio is a relatively uncommon name and usually hand through the generations and if Horatio b 1843 is Joseph's and Lydia's that could be the the link.

Marg
Title: Re: Aston Juxta Birmingham
Post by: jim1 on Saturday 16 June 12 15:45 BST (UK)
Am I missing something.I don't see the connection between the name Horartio & Joseph Allard.

jim
Title: Re: Aston Juxta Birmingham
Post by: MargP on Saturday 16 June 12 15:48 BST (UK)
Hi Jim see my post 18
Title: Re: Aston Juxta Birmingham
Post by: jim1 on Saturday 16 June 12 16:42 BST (UK)
I would have thought Horatio would belong to John Horatio as his death was registered at St.George's which is where they were living.They all seem to be from B'ham whereas Joseph is from Packwood.

jim
Title: Re: Aston Juxta Birmingham
Post by: MargP on Saturday 16 June 12 17:29 BST (UK)
I suppose we will never know, unless Philly want to take a chance and order the birth certificate for Horace Allard b 1843

Marg
Title: Re: Aston Juxta Birmingham
Post by: MargP on Sunday 17 June 12 08:41 BST (UK)
Another thought Joseph may not have been born in Packwood, he may have lived there as a child and thought he was born there, I have seen this a lot in my tree.

Marg
Title: Re: Aston Juxta Birmingham
Post by: jim1 on Sunday 17 June 12 11:10 BST (UK)
Yes it occurred to me that might be the case but there aren't any Allards in the general Solihull area.There are no other Allards on the census claiming to be from Packwood or the surrounding area.The closest name is Alward.I'm thinking possibly an illegitimate son of an Alward.The closest Allards I can find are at Kenilworth.

jim
Title: Re: Aston Juxta Birmingham
Post by: Philly007 on Monday 18 June 12 09:24 BST (UK)
Good Morning
I have been researching away all weekend with the help of the information you you have all provided.
Joseph Allard still seems a bit of a mystery so I decided to check out his son HENRY ALLARD born 1842 who married MARY ANN ORAM (not sure about this surname) and thought I might find something further about his father, but HENRY seems to disappear after 1861 census and I cant find a record of his marriage. I have found Lydia Allard (possibly Joseph's wife) a widow 1871 census, in Kings Norton Worcestershire.
Jim 1 found a William Allard a haberdasher in the Bull Ring and I think he is definitely in the family tree because several family members down the line are market traders and shopkeepers by trade.
Is it usual for family christian names to reoccur again and again through the generations ex. Henry, John, William?  ???
Title: Re: Aston Juxta Birmingham
Post by: jim1 on Monday 18 June 12 11:30 BST (UK)
More often than not children were named after other family members,however these are very common names so doesn't offer any real clues.
With regard to William the haberdasher,this family appear to come from B'ham whereas Joseph is from Packwood so it's difficult to see a connection.

jim
Title: Re: Aston Juxta Birmingham
Post by: jim1 on Monday 18 June 12 11:46 BST (UK)
Lydia also appears in 1881 with daughter Mary living in Vincent Place which is in Balsall Heath now part of inner city B'ham but at the time was part of Worcs.My ancestors are living round the corner in Vincent Crescent.
jim
Title: Re: Aston Juxta Birmingham
Post by: ciderdrinker on Tuesday 19 June 12 10:18 BST (UK)
Hi there,

Lydia Hallard  possible death Kings Norton Mar 1894 age 76 6c 246.
The nearest for Joseph is
Joseph Hallard Birmingham Mar 1880 age 65 6d 71.
No wills but might be worth getting the full copy of Thomas Alward Birmingham 20.7.1865 from Packwood see if any other sons where mentioned besides the executors.
All of which doesn't say where they are in 1871.
Also on familysearch baptism at North Wingfield Lydia Wragg to John and Betty 12.5.1812
As for Henry in 1871 there are a Henry and Ann 30 and 28 from Birmingham at Clifton Road Kings norton printer/painter children Ann 4,Clara 6 and Emma 2.
Ciderdrinker
Ps don't think the Henry one is right -have found another 1871 3103 39  11
Henry Allard 28 grainer Birmingham
Mary A 29
Annie 2 months birmingham
Title: Re: Aston Juxta Birmingham
Post by: jim1 on Tuesday 19 June 12 12:48 BST (UK)
Hallard isn't a variation I'd thought of but there are a few popping up including a Joseph b.1823 occ.grainer from Knowle so it looks like another variation of the family name.

jim
Title: Re: Aston Juxta Birmingham
Post by: Philly007 on Tuesday 19 June 12 14:08 BST (UK)
I am fairly convinced that the Lydia I found on the 1881 census, recorded as a widow is Josephs wife, she lets out rooms and has a Mary R Allard living there. (2 Hanbury Place, Kings Norton) I have also found the entry for Mary R a warehouse woman age 35 at the same address (this is obviously the one above) Lydia gives her DOB about 1814 on this census. On the 1841 census Joseph Allard gives Warwickshire as his place of birth.
William the haberdasher I think must be related as I remember tales of the Allards selling in the Bull Ring and they called themselves haberdashers (which to me was an unusual word). Later family members sold on the market in Aston and had shops in the area.
The death record looks as if it might be Lydia's. I think Joseph died before 1881 according to the 1881 census. I havent come across a Mary R before could it be an A mistaken for a R?
Title: Re: Aston Juxta Birmingham
Post by: MargP on Tuesday 19 June 12 14:46 BST (UK)
Hi

So far we have William Allard Haberdasher at the Bull Ring

His son John Horatio Allard Carpenter

We have Joseph Allard Painter, possible son

We Horatio Allard b 1843 possible son of Joseph and Lydia or John Horatio Allard

I have asked a friend to check out the BC for Horatio Allard b 1843 she is  not going until Friday so we should have some news by the end of the week

Margp
Title: Re: Aston Juxta Birmingham
Post by: jim1 on Tuesday 19 June 12 15:32 BST (UK)
I don't see Joseph being the son of William as all of his children 1813-21 were born B'ham.

jim
Title: Re: Aston Juxta Birmingham
Post by: MargP on Tuesday 19 June 12 15:46 BST (UK)
We can't find him in Packwood therefore he could have been born any where in Birmingham
Title: Re: Aston Juxta Birmingham
Post by: Philly007 on Tuesday 19 June 12 16:01 BST (UK)
I am thinking the same thing about Joseph, with no Allards near Packwood and the fact that on the 1841 census he puts down place of birth as Warwickshire, Packwood could be somewhere he spent some time when he was little. It is this detail that seems to block any further identification. I did try and check the illegitimate Joseph( birth 1814) out at Packwood but came to a dead end. Josephs son Henry (1842) was married to Mary Ann (Oram-unconfirmed by myself) and I know of at least one child of theirs Henry John (1873)
Lydias christening details from Ciderdrinker seem to be correct, so I now have Lydia's parents details.
Great research everyone!  :) :)
Title: Re: Aston Juxta Birmingham
Post by: MargP on Tuesday 19 June 12 16:32 BST (UK)
I had already posted the christening details for Lydia Wragg on post 2

Marg
Title: Re: Aston Juxta Birmingham
Post by: Philly007 on Tuesday 19 June 12 17:31 BST (UK)
To MargP many thanks, I somehow missed it when I was writing details up.
 I was contacted an hour ago by a family elder who has heard of my research efforts and carried out some many years ago. This information might help with the Joseph Allard search.

 Sometime possibly in the 1870s Joseph left Lydia and lived with Emma Collins, they had a son called Thomas Joseph Allard Collins. They are on the 1871 census and my relation believes Joseph used the name Hallard, he also gives his place of birth as Knowle.
Joseph's son Henry (1842) lived with Mary Anne Orme (possibly not married) their son was named Harry Allard(1873). They had another child Annie who died young.
My relation also believes that Lydia lived in Vincent Place and that the address might have come under Kings Norton. I dont understand the address 2 Handley Place, Kings Norton which she is also shown as living at.
Title: Re: Aston Juxta Birmingham
Post by: MargP on Tuesday 19 June 12 19:24 BST (UK)
Hi Philly

A Birth Record for

Joseph Thomas Allard Collins
July Qtr 1863
Aston
6d
246

I wonder where Emma was in 1871 she is not with Joseph, and he as there son with him ????

Marg
Title: Re: Aston Juxta Birmingham
Post by: jim1 on Tuesday 19 June 12 22:07 BST (UK)
Quote
Hallard isn't a variation I'd thought of but there are a few popping up including a Joseph b.1823 occ.grainer from Knowle
I noticed that one but I discounted him as his age was way out.Knowle & Packwood are practically the same place.He now looks a possibility.
jim