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Research in Other Countries => Canada => Topic started by: heiserca on Monday 11 June 12 03:05 BST (UK)
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I think my great-great-grandparents both came from Toronto:
James Clezie, son of George Clezie, a cabinetmaker
Ellen Lockhart, no information about her background
They got married, 1840, at Troy, New York. My theory: they were both from Toronto, and eloped. Looking for evidence...
1843-44 Toronto directory shows James Clezie’s father: "Clezie Geo, cabinet maker, Newgate street"
It also has one listing of the Lockhart surname: "Lockhart H·y, blacksmith, Maria street"
Does anyone have access to an old map, around 1840? How close together were Newgate and Maria Streets? Maybe the streets are gone now, or have different names.
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Hopefully, the link will work:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0nh5/
Newgate Street is shown (I haven't yet found Maria Street).
I didn't see Maria Street, but I didn't look too hard. The map is dated 1834. My "favourite" ancestors arrived in Toronto in 1857, so I don't know too much about Toronto prior to that time. However, the population was increasing quite a bit, so if Maria Street was not on the 1834 map, it could have been on a map in 1843.
The families could have met at church, as well.
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Explains where Maria Street was (1843):
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0nha/
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Thank you, I found the street. My first lead as to where Ellen Lockhart might have come from. Now, how to discover if she really did? I believe there is no census before their 1840 marriage. Where could I find some record to confirm her existence? She was self-effacing, or secretive, no personal information known.
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Hi heiserca,
There were some censuses done prior to the 1st federal census done in 1851/2. They were done they were much smaller in geography, perhaps regionally (ie Canada West/Upper Canada) or locally (Toronto City, County of York, etc) for where you are looking. I would contact the Toronto public library to see if there was one done for for those locations, and if so, ask them to do a lookup for your ancestors. Hope that helps,
JDC
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Thanks, jdc, I'll try that. I'll first check to see if I can find some information about those earlier censuses. Always hesitate about asking a research desk for help unless I have some idea what direction to point them. First, find out the relevant census years; second, find out whether the census actually showed names of each person, or just numbers. When I have those facts, then time to call in the researchers.
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Hi,
Here is the OGS Toronto Branch list of some available records for researching Toronto genealogy.
http://www.torontofamilyhistory.org/toronto.html
You can see what census records were taken and what survives now. :)
RK
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Thank you, Kitty. It appears that the first census in Toronto was 1842. Ellen Lockhart was married and living with her husband before then. So it won’t tell me names of her parents.
I’m at a loss... how to discover the parents of a married woman in 1840s Toronto? The marriage certificate from Troy, New York does not show their names.
The Clezie family occasionally attended St. Andrew’s Presbyterian Church. The Presbyterian Archives years ago sent me baptismal information for some of their children. But nothing relevant was found about the Lockharts. No idea if they were religious or not.
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Assuming you have, but asking anyway:
have you found Ellen on census returns (after she was married) and was she born in Canada?
Update: If they were living in Ohio in 1860, it appears that she was born in Scotland.
Added: Previous thread about the couple.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0niv/
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Sorry, I've not read your previous posts nor this one too closely.
Do you know when the Clezie's sailed to North America? Did James' father sail to North America as well? (Could James have had a brother named George, living in Toronto in 1843?)
One would guess that Ellen would not have made a journey to North America on her own. Have you tried to find Lockharts in Ontario? Perhaps her father or brothers may have remained in Toronto (if in fact they actually were living in Canada)?
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Ellen Lockhart was born in Scotland, according to censuses, as also was James Clezie.
George Clezie was the father of James; they left Scotland, arrived Montreal, July 1832; disappeared 1832-1836. James appeared in 1836 Toronto directory, 18 Richmond St W, south side, a cabinetmaker.
James Clezie married Ellen Lockhart, 11 June 1840 at Troy, New York. I’m told there were no Lockhart families living at Troy until after 1840. But there were Lockhart families in Toronto, so probably Ellen Lockhart & James Clezie met in Toronto, eloped to Troy. Just a guess so far... looking for evidence.
After their marriage, James & Ellen returned to Toronto, he is found in directories starting 1844. Then they moved to Cleveland about 1852, where the 1860 census confirms, Ellen was born in Scotland, 1816.
Back and forth across borders, yet so few traces of where she came from.
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There are several Clezie names .
You can go to Worldconnect, then go to advanced search,
then fill in the blank boxes, with first and last names.
Click enter and you will see many other names.
They don't necessarily fit in your family, but it might be helpful.
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Oh, they fit alright! Every single Clezie-Clazie-Clazey-Clazy-Clezy name that we have found is part of the mosaic. Thank you, vbain, will certainly follow your suggeston.
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There are several Clezie names.
If you go to worldconnect, then go to advanced search,
there will be some boxes to put names in.
They will not necessarily be your family, but they will give you an idea of all the Clezies and their families.
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Um, you already put that on this thread vbain
The Lockhart family could just as well immigrated elsewhere in New York as well...There are several families from Scotland in 1850 N.Y. ( also a few in Vermont, Massachusetts & New Hampshire) If he was a cabinetmaker he may have been looking further afield for sales...or visiting rellies in U.S.
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I am just browsing threads and brainstorming. In case anybody comes back! ;)
Have you looked at scotlandspeople for a possible matching birth?
http://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk
There are no Ellen Lockhart births in the time frame, but 1810-1820 (same results for 1812-1818) there are 4 Helen Lockharts. That would be not at all a surprising shift, with a translatlantic trip by people who were probably not literate. (There is also one James Clezie baptism with father George in that timeframe. If that is him, the Scottish record could provide more info that you may not have, like James's mother's full name.)
James and Ellen's children's names could give you a clue about their parents' names, especially if they were Scottish and may have stuck to the naming pattern. You could look at the info for the four baptisms and see whether any stands out as a possible good match. Then, of course, you would have to look for evidence of the parents in Scotland and in Canada, to rule in or out as possibles. You could also look for other children of the couples that you could try to trace in both places to see whether they stayed or left.
I have no extant credits at scotlandspeople to check the basic results, but it would cost very little to do that.
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Of course much of what is at scotlandspeople is also at familysearch. It has the four Helen Lockhart baptisms.
1. b 1815, Dumbarton, parents John Lockhart, Janet McFarlane
2. b. 1813, Dundonald, parents John Lockhart, Janet Walker
(so if she had kids John and Janet, that won't help!)
3. Helen Sibbald Lockhart, b. 1812, Haddington, parents John Lockhart, Isabella McWilliam
4. b. 1812, Kettle, parents John Lockhart, Margaret Rollo
The original records at SP could also give information about their marriage (I'm not sure about early parish records before registration).
John Lockhart and Janet McFarlane married 1814, Dumbarton, but there are no details (e.g. fathers' names) at familysearch.
If she was accurate when she said 1816 as her dob (it's always possible!), #1 would be the most likely (Aug 1815 = census dob of 1816).
That couple also had children
Charles McGlashan Lockhart, 1816, Dumbarton
Duncan Lockhart, 1818, Dumbarton
and you can sarch at familysearch for children with the other parents in that time and place.
Not saying these are your people, just that these baptisms could be a fruitful path to wander down!
For good measure, there is James Clezie, b. 1816, Edrom, Berwick, parents George Clezie, Jean Lockie. Also:
Isabella Clezie, 1829, Edinburgh
George Clezie, 1825, Edinburgh
Janet Cleazie, 1825, Edinburgh (twins)
Agnes Clezie, 1814, Edrom
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Thank you, JaneyCanuck. Scotland’s People has indeed been searched: found several possibilities there but nothing definite.
James Clezie & Ellen Lockhart married at Troy, New York, 11 June 1840. The best guess so far is that they met in Toronto and eloped. But it is only a guess. Their children were:
James (after the father)
George Alexander (George Clezie was James Clezie’s father; Alexander Lockie was James’s maternal grandfather, Alexander Lockie)
Margaret Jane (James Clezie’s mother was alternately called Jane / Jean)
Mary (origin unknown)
Helen Orr (that’s what the cemetery inscription said, but it might have been intended as Eleanor, a form of Ellen)
William James (source of William is unknown; James from the father)
Eleanor (again, presumably a form of the mother’s name)
There were no Johns, and no Janets in this family, so the first two possibles from Scotland’s People seem doubtful. The 4th one seems viable because it included a Margaret, the name given by James Clezie & Ellen Lockhart to their first daughter.
James Clezie, b. 1816 at Edrom, Berwickshire is the husband of Ellen Lockhart and father of the above-named children.
The births you mentioned at Edinburgh:
Isabella Clezie, 1829
George Clezie, 1825 & Janet Cleazie, 1825 (twins)
Agnes Clezie, 1814, Edrom
are all children of George Clezie & Jean/Jane Lockie, so they were siblings of James Clezie.
The twins, George & Janet, born in 1825, both died at Edinburgh in Nov & Dec, 1831. Then on 26 July 1832 a passenger list showed "Mrs. Clazie and 3 children above 12 years" travelling from Quebec to Montreal on the steamship “John Molson”. So, the entire family must have left Scotland between Dec 1831 - July 1832.
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So now, if I were you, I would try to see what happened to those Helen Lockharts. And I would assume that your Ellen very likely started out life as Helen; the two names are virtually interchangeable, along with Eleanor. I've seen people called all three, in different records throughout their lives. And you've got that "Helen Orr" birth to illustrate the pronunciation thing!
Helen was much more common in Scotland at that time than Ellen. The 1841 Scottish census shows 292 Ellens born in 1816, but 2,866 Helens.
And don't forget spelling variations for Lockhart, e.g. Lockart. I have a friend in the US whose family I researched a few years ago. Her gr-grfather was a Marcum. After figuring out who he was, I found that a couple of generations farther back he connected with a Marcum family in the southeastern US that has been hugely researched, starting with a drummer in the Revolutionary War -- and the name was Markham until they crossed the water and there was nobody around who know how their name was spelled. Just for example. ;)
I have no idea about Scottish geography really, so crossmatching any births that were found with marriages and deaths would take some researching for me. One Helen Lockhart did marry in Dumbarton, in 1840. (She could be the one born c1830 who is in the 1841 census living with a McLean couple.) (Er, no she couldn't. My arithmetic and reading comprehension seem to be as bad as my Scottish geography.)
It is tough slogging but sometimes the best you can do is take all the possibilities and track them each to where you can rule them out, if you can, and see who is left. Get some credits at ScotlandsPeople, identify the possible births, look for their marriages or deaths (i.e. while still single), look for siblings of the possible Helens who might also have gone to Canada, look for the various parents and siblings in later Scottish and Canadian and US records ... You may come up with a match that you might never be able to be certain of, but that is almost positive, e.g. if you found a Helen/Ellen born in Scotland whose family members match people in Canada.
Also keep in mind that James and Ellen could have had other children who died in infancy, whom you have not identified, who might have been named for Ellen's family.
If she was born in Scotland, as it seems from the censuses, she has to be there somewhere! Of course, parish records for that era are not complete at ScotlandsPeople, but it's the starting point for looking, anyhow.
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Thank you, JaneyCanuck. You've given a tough assignment but I shall try to complete it. I'm starting with the 4th Helen/Ellen you found - the daughter of John Lockhart and Margaret Rollo. The name Margaret was certainly passed down in this family, so I'll start by assuming that the daughter of Margaret Rollo was my ancestor, and look for any evidence. You've given the first lead as to where we should begin looking!
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It took me about a year to figure out who my mother's paternal grandfather was -- once I'd figured out he wasn't who he said he was because there was no such person ever born. ;)
We'll call him Smith, although the name is actually a rare one. No records of him before he married my gr-grmother at age 32 ... so I just hunted for every person I could find with any kind of similar details, and I finally found him with the name Brown. Same unusual given names, born at the right time, in a place Smith gave in the one census where he appeared before splitting for Canada, and a father Fred Brown, just like the Fred Smith (nonexistent in any record) he claimed. Brown disappeared from the records after 1873, and Smith emerged in the census in 1881. And it turned out that Brown had a sister with the same unique given names as a Ms Smith who married around when my Brown became Smith (i.e. the sister we had no idea my gr-grfather had) ... and whose third given name at birth was in fact Smith. Put them all together, and there was just no question. My gr-grfather Smith was really a Brown.
A few years after I had settled that in my own mind, I heard a tale from another gr-grandchild of Smith whose mother was Smith's confidante in her youth, a tale my family had never heard: that he had been in India with the military for 5 years and deserted rather than be sent to Afghanistan when he had already done his time and was due his discharge, and had nightmares all his very long life about the old Queen coming to get him. The timing fit perfectly; the first wife of Brown died in 1873 and the second Afghan war started in 1878. The little scrap of possible truth my family had, and then it was only one uncle who knew of it, was that Smith said his first family was "wiped out by a plague". Sure enough, Brown's brother who died at 30, first wife who died just months after they married, daughter from that marriage at 19, and sister's daughter at 16, and I'm sure the several siblings who died in childhood and the sister, who disappeared after her daughter's birth, had died of tuberculosis.
I'm actually in the process of having DNA analysis done with a sample from Smith/Brown's son's son, to submit for comparison with both his apparently real surname and his fake surname (which, given the tale he told about illicit parentage, could be real after all ...).
I'm lucky - I have a male line to follow for the DNA analysis. You are looking for a female ancestor's ancestors, so you are out of luck!
But I offer my tale to buck you up, because sometimes coincidences do add up to indisputable fact. ;) And the longer it takes to track somebody down, the more fun it is. Because otherwise, what would we do with ourselves??
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Thank you, JaneyCanuck! By process of elimination, we can now say that - in all probability - the wife of James Kerr Clezie (previously known to us as Ellen Lockhart) was actually: Helen Lockhart, born 15 Aug 1815, baptized 20 Aug 1815, at Dumbarton, Dunbartonshire, daughter of John Lockhart & Janet McFarlane. My cousin in the UK got a photocopy of her baptismal record. That puts us miles ahead of where we were, just days ago. My great-great-grandmother actually had a past!
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Yeesh, you are a whirlwind! You ruled out all the others and couldn't rule out her, or there were irrefutable clues and coincidences for that one ...? Just always curious how it worked out!
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Ha ha... as you know, genealogy is rarely that simple. Sherlock Holmes described his method thus:
"How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth."
Helen Lockhart from Dumbarton fits all the parameters that described my ancestor, Ellen. The other candidates each married the wrong person, or died wrong place, wrong time. As no other Helen Lockharts births are known in Scotland between 1812-17, Helen Lockhart from Dumbarton must = Ellen. Elementary, my dear Watson! Thank you again, for your help.
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Excellent, that's what I meant -- I just didn't think ruling the others out would be quite such a quick and easy task!
I was actually going to quote Holmes myself when I was first proposing the ruling-out approach. ;D
Very glad to have helped and I hope it continues to be so, er, easy.
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I come crawling back, my tail between my legs! I was wrong. Helen Lockhart from Dumbarton stayed in Scotland, married William Kirkpatrick in 184O.
That means NONE of the 4 Helen Lockharts mentioned in an earlier post can possibly be my ancestor! They all have an alibi, married someone else, died somewhere else. My ancestor was another Ellen/Helen Lockhart, as yet undiscovered. Now what?
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http://www.odh.ohio.gov/vitalstatistics/vitalstats.aspx
Ohio is an "open" state and anyone can request records as they are considered public property. Have you ordered Ellen's death certificate?
Debbie
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Excellent that you pursued the ruling out process, even if the result wasn't as hoped. (And isn't it great that enough info is provided in Scottish marriage records that they can be matched up with births, for doing that!)
Don't forget -- surname variations. Lockart, e.g. A search at SP shows 2 matches for Helen Lockart 1810-1820 ... narrowing the search, they were both 1818-1820.
Familysearch shows only the one christened 16 Nov 1820, father John, Abernethy, Perth. But there is, just for another example:
Helen Lochart, 1818, Abbotshall, Fife, parents Robert Lochart and Margaret Lockhart. I would expect that the mother's surname was actually intended to be the same as the father's, but possibly that was her own surname. There's a Margaret there. Just as another example.
Depending on what Ohio death certificates show (and what the informant knew), getting the death cert, if you don't have it, seems like a pretty good idea!
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New York marriage record, 1840, shows only: names of parties; date & place of marriage; signature of clergyman.
1860 census says she was born 1816, Scotland; nothing else useful.
1870 census, can't find her.
1880 census says she was born 1819, Scotland; nothing else useful.
1890 census, can't find her.
Death certificate shows only name; last address; date of death; cause of death "old age"; name of undertaker.
Alternate spellings: Lochhart, Lockhard, Lockheart, no clear results.
Nothing puts us any farther ahead in terms of finding her origin. What would Sherlock Holmes do now?
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Probably try to trace
Helen Lochart, 1818, Abbotshall, Fife, parents Robert Lochart and Margaret Lockhart.
And anybody else who looked possible!
What seems to be the parents' marriage in that case shows at familysearch as Robert Lockhart + Margaret Lockhart (and vice versa), 1818, Abbotshall. She is the only birth showing to them at familysearch.
signed, Watson ;)
PS - just looking at the 1851 Cdn census, you have surnames Lockhart, Lockart, Lockert, Lochart, for example. Also, possibly mistranscriptions (I don't pay for access to images): Lachert, Lackhart.
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“Is there any point to which you would wish to draw my attention?”
“To the curious incident of the dog in the night-time.”
“The dog did nothing in the night-time.”
“That was the curious incident,” remarked Sherlock Holmes.
(“Silver Blaze”, in The Memoirs of Sherlock Holmes, by Sir Arthur Conan Doyle,1893)
I see a marriage of Robert Lockhart & Margaret Lockhart at Abbotshall, Fife, 1818; they had 10 children, including a daughter Helen! But their Helen was b. 3 Feb 1836, twenty years too late to be my ancestor.
Can’t find any Helen or Ellen Loc**art born 1816-19 anywhere in Fife.
James Clezie, husband of my Ellen/Helen, is shown in Toronto directories:
1844-46: Sarah St; 1846-48: 18 Richmond St W; 1848-49: James St; 1849-53: 137 Yonge St.
In May 1852 a child of theirs died in Toronto, burial record shows “Helen Orr Clezie” but was probably Eleanor. Dec 1852 their next child was born at Cleveland, so they moved during that 7-month period.
Lockhart and other varieties are also listed in Toronto directories but names of children not shown. Simply no clue as to where Ellen/Helen came from, just "Scotland".
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If Helen Orr was the actual name are there any Clezie Orr connections or Lockhart Orr connections you can find.
Debbie
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None. I think the person who wrote "Helen Orr" meant "Eleanor" but didn't know how to spell it. They had no formal schooling.
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We've crossed in the post so I'll add this first:
Helen Lochart, 1818, Abbotshall, Fife, parents Robert Lochart and Margaret Lockhart.
- that's from familysearch - presumably died, then, and they had another Helen in 1836.
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I might also rethink the idea that Ellen (and family) were living in Toronto, and consider that James Crezie met her in Troy. Or possibly met in Toronto but her family all relocated to NY state before they married, or the family had relocated already when they met ...
In the 1850 US census there is a Robert Lockhart living in Troy Ward 7, Rensselaer county, NY, born in Canada 1834.
In Lansingburgh, Rensselaer county there are also a John (1820) and Ellen (1826, his wife), both born in Scotland, and their children Margaret (1848) and William (1850).
Unfortunately, while the wives' names match up nicely, they are Lockharts by marriage. ;)
I might wonder whether both Robert 1834 and John 1820 were brothers of your Ellen, John born before the family left Scotland and Robert after. Unfortunately, of course, there is no shortage John Loc*rts born in Scotland c1820.
The US censuses are findable at familysearch also. What certainly looks to be that Robert (RH, Robert H) Lockhart, born 1834 in Canada, ends up in Tennessee in 1860 and New Orleans in 1900.
Also in 1850 familysearch shows a Jane Locklort (never underestimate the capacity to mistranscribe) in Troy Ward 2, born 1826 Scotland. Yes indeed, at Anc'y she is Jane Tocklart. I can't see the household, but there are no other Tocklarts in that census. I would have a look at her too.
Anc'y shows 346 people in Troy in 1850 born in Scotland. Having browsed them, I don't see any others who look like perverted Lockharts.
Ah, but as for the name in Troy pre-1840: the 1820 census has a John Lockart there, per familysearch.
When it comes to what one's ancestors got up to, particularly with their names, I always try to remember ... except now I forget: how many absurd things is one to believe before breakfast? ;)
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This is new information. Thank you! I'll certainly try to pursue those leads in New York. I had been told there were no Lockharts in or near Troy until roughly the Civil War era. "Come, Watson.. The game is afoot!"
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Loving a puzzle. ;)
That Jane Locklort/Tocklart - familysearch shows her in a Vail household from Germany (I'd actually doubt they are from Germany; the HOH's place of birth is blank, and the others dittos, Germany belonging to the previous household), with a Stokely couple from Pennsylvania, and one other young single woman, from Ireland. I would suspect they were both domestic servants.
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/MC1C-9YJ
Actually, and see, I am learning things, you can see the census image there. Once I adjust my javascript blocker ... it doesn't show an occupation or relationship for them, although they might be meant to be dittos to the Servant written after Mr. Stokeley's name. The Vails are the idle very rich.
Robert Lockhart 1834 is in the household of John Cloyde.
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/MC1Z-PMH
but I cannot for the life of me get it to show me the image:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-266-11861-24955-0?cc=1401638
John Cloyde was born 1787 in Scotland, his wife Margaret 1790 in Scotland. They have three Dow toddlers with them, born in Newfoundland and New York, and a Mary Dow aged 31 born in Scotland. There is also a John Boyd aged 23 born in Scotland.
I can't get the image no matter whose name in the household I try it from. The pages before and after, yes; that one, no. Maybe someone could see it at Anc'y?
John Lockhart 1820 Scotland is a ropemaker.
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/MC18-5YN
I'm even wondering whether Robert c1834 might be a child of Ellen's from before marriage ...
In 1900 he is single, a lodger, with an assortment of people, in a white collar / artsy neighbourhood in New Orleans, and is a sexton! Year of immigration to the US (i.e. from Canada) seems to be 1836 (63 yrs in US, still an alien).
edit - got the 1850 image for him by switching to IE. John Cloyde, 63, born Scotland, upholsterer - as are Robert Lockhart aged 16 and John Boyd aged 23. Cloyde is just an odd name, and doesn't really seem to be a name. It's what it looks like, and Margaret Cloyde aged 90 died in Illinois in 1879, which is a match for the wife in the household. A spelling change on crossing the water, I would say, as those are the only occurrences of the name at familysearch. Clyde, as pronounced, maybe.
But I do wonder whether someone might have misread ... Crezie? Too much of a stretch, I think. Although ... it sometimes comes as Clazie, for instance?
Playing with the 1860 (because no image is available free), on the next census page (although possibly not - RH on page 14 is in Third Ward Memphis, Wm on page 15 is in Second Ward Memphis, both Shelby), family 98 (RH Lockhart is in family 91), is Wm Lockhart, aged 30, born Scotland c1830. They gotta be related. William born in Scotland c1830, Robert H born in Canada c1834, both in Memphis in 1860, Robert is in Troy in 1850.
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Cloyde might easily be a mangled version of Clezie! We have seen Clazie, Clazey, Clayse, Clayce, Clacy, Clezy, Clazy, even Clizzee.
There was a John Clazey, born late 1787 or early '88, last known at Ford, Northumberland, in the 1841 census, then... went walkabout, disappeared, left wife and children behind. Wouldn't it be a wonder if you have tracked him down!
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Another "possible" ancestry of Ellen Lockhart:
John Lockhart, #597, Lanarkshire, arrived June 1821 on the ship "Earl of Buckingham", settled at Ramsay Township, Ontario, concession 12, lot 4 west, total family 5: husband, wife, and 3 daughters.
Might one of those daughters have been my Ellen/Helen? The timing is right... how could we discover names of the daughters?
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At familysearch, searching for Lockhart in Ramsay Ontario Canada (which is in Lanark County - near Ottawa), there is a John born 1793 in Scotland, in the 1871 census. That could fit.
Using his details to search:
02, Ramsay a, North Lanark 80, Ontario, Canada
he is the only result (did the 1871 Canada only include head of household? I forget -- but that record would be viewable at Anc'y)
He is there in 1861, shown as born 1794.
In 1861 there are an Elizabeth and William Lockhart both on page 76, lines 40 and 41, so it's possible to match up household members by the records at familysearch for that census.
I don't see anyone else on the same page as John, page 1 line 9 (clicking on all the Lockharts in Ramsay Lanark Ontario Canada in 1861), so presumably he was widowed by that time.
I can't see him in 1851 at Anc'y, even just searching for John in Lanark County born in Scotland 1788-1798, and it returns nil for loc*rt born in Scotland 1785-1825.
Troy (Albany), NY, is roughly equidistant from Ottawa and Toronto, so that doesn't help us tremendously to figure out whether a young woman from Lanark County, Ontario, might be a likely candidate, unfortunately. Generally speaking, there was more traffic from the Toronto region to NY state than from the Ottawa region, I'd say.
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Have you checked out any relationship between your Lockhart and the Lockhart of this marriage?
Robert Leach, 26, West Troy Albany Co. to Jane Lockhart, 25 East Troy Rennesalaer Co.
Married April 4, 1853 by Villeroy Reed of the 1st Presbyterian church Lansingburgh.
Debbie
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Robert Leach, 26, West Troy Albany Co. to Jane Lockhart, 25 East Troy Rennesalaer Co.
Married April 4, 1853 by Villeroy Reed of the 1st Presbyterian church Lansingburgh.
who will of course be the Jane I referred to a couple of posts above:
Also in 1850 familysearch shows a Jane Locklort (never underestimate the capacity to mistranscribe) in Troy Ward 2, born 1826 Scotland. Yes indeed, at Anc'y she is Jane Tocklart. I can't see the household, but there are no other Tocklarts in that census. I would have a look at her too.
and I then added:
That Jane Locklort/Tocklart - familysearch shows her in a Vail household ... with ... one other young single woman, from Ireland. I would suspect they were both domestic servants.
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You assume that Ellen's son, George Alexander, is named after the husband's side of the family. George might be for the paternal grandfather but the Alexander could be for the maternal grandfather. The 2nd daughter Mary might then be named for Ellen's mother. Family search has a few pairings for an Alexander Lockhart and Mary which you might look into.
Of course all this is speculation. Uunless you find a Lockhart relative with some sort of documentation such as a family bible which links your Ellen to a specific family line you won't be able to definitely prove her parentage. You might have some good guesses but nothing definitive since sources such as marriage and death certificates didn't give useful information.
You posted a link to the cemetery where Ellen is buried. Did you contact them to see if their online index was only a partial list of the information they hold on file?
I also wouldn't discount Helen Orr as a misspelling of Eleanor. You might be correct but Scottish naming patterns also included many family names - sometimes a few generations back.
Debbie
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Unfortunately, I don't see any Lockhart births in Scotland to Alexander + Mary (Swan or Maclaren) before 1824, and the earliest marriages (Mary McLaren, Mary McKinzie) are in 1819.
I definitely agree not to have fixed ideas about which names came from where, though.
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Not every baptismal record survives. Sometimes you find records for a few children in a certain timeframe but don't find those for the children you know came before and after.
Women had children over extended periods of time. One of my ancestors had her first child in 1816 and the last in 1838. I know the names I suggested all show later births but it is still a possibility and right now everything is simply conjecture.
Debbie
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Thank you, Debbie and Janey! We seem to have 2 divergent Lockhart lines to follow, where before there were none:
First line, Robert, John & Jane Lockhart - apparently siblings, who all lived at or near Troy, New York, about the same time when Ellen/Helen Lockhart married James Kerr Clezie;
and
Second line, John Lockhart and his 3 daughters, names unknown, who settled at Ramsay Twp, Ontario in 1821; John is buried in the Auld Kirk Cemetery, Almonte, Ontario, just west of Ottawa, found online a photo of his grave.
Might one of these lines eventually take us to my ancestor Ellen/Helen Lockhart?
How does one determine the parents of someone who died leaving no record of where she came from?
Stay tuned for the next exciting episode...
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Indeed, cosmac, I have pointed out early in this very thread that not all parish records survive ... Perhaps there were an Alexander Lockhart and a Mary who married and had children in a parish all of whose records are not accessible. I would just note that I searched at FS for Alexander Lockhart + Mary marriages and births back to 1790, being well aware that women often had children over a long period of time, and knowing that our Ellen was born somewhere around 1816 ... and the earliest dates I found were as noted above.
Heiserca -- the "two lines" you describe are not even necessarily two different families.
Jane who married Robert Leach could well be a sister of your Ellen, and they could both have reached Troy from Lanark County, Ontario, and be part of the family of John who arrived in 1821. Robert c1824 in Troy could be a later child as well.
That's a bit of a stretch, of course! And oh, oops, not -- Jane was apparently born in 1826, after that familiy left Scotland, yes ...
I'm familiar with the surname Leach in Renfrew County, adjacent to Lanark County, west of Ottawa. Lots and lots of Scottish settlers in both places - as you can tell from the county names! (Perth county is southwest of toronto, of course.)
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All details being a good thing -- the gravestone of John Lockhart Senr. who settled in Ramsay Tnshp says he died 21 Feb 1871 at the age of 78, making him likely born in 1792, and that he was a native of Lanark, Scotland.
http://www.bytown.net/auldkirk.htm
The death shows in the Anc'y index as LOCKART.
If he was a Sr, then there was a Jr. The John born in 1830 who died in Lanark County in 1902? He is shown as John LOCHART in 1901 at automatedgenealogy. He appears to be Uncle in the household of Henry Cavers 1845 and Jennie Cavers 1846.
Henry or Jennie must be a child of a daughter (or son) of John Lockhart Sr.? Hm. Jennie Young married Henry Cavers in Lanark County. Did a daughter of John Lockhart Sr. marry a Mr. Young? John Sr's children would have married before 1869 when the index starts (Henry and Jennie Cavers being born 1845-6, also before the index). ... Jennie Young was likely Jane Young in 1861 in Lanark County, born 1846. The names are interchangeable.
What I'm getting at is: if you could find any descendant of the John Lockhart who settled in Lanark County, Ontario ... . This John Lockhart in 1901 who seems maybe to be the Jr to the Sr -- knowing which of Henry and Jennie Chavers he was uncle to would be a start. (edited because I twice said John Young in this para when I meant John Lockhart.)
And that gravestone doesn't look like something that was erected in 1871 -- it's pretty brand new as of when the photo was taken. Would someone local, possibly a descendant, have been involved?
FS offers two possibles:
John born 31 Dec 1792 in Carluke, William Lockhart and Anne Fleming
John born on 05 May 1792 in Lanark, John Lockhart and Janet Wilson
and the next closest
John born 22 Aug 1791 in Lanark, John Lockhart and Jean Paterson
For marriages, it offers (and here is where my geography is too poor):
Agnes Dallas, 03 Apr 1808, Glasgow, Lanark
Agnes Storry, 12 Nov 1814, Barony, Lanark
Jean Mcmillan, 12 Aug 1816, Lesmahagow, Lanark
Janet Anderson, 08 Feb 1818, Lanark, Lanark
Euphemia Morton, 08 Nov 1818, Barony, Lanark
Christian Miller, 08 Nov 1818, Glasgow, Lanark
but there is no daughter *len shown for any of them. One would have to poke around more to try to rule them all out, for example. For instance, John Lockhart and Janet Anderson had children in 1827, and later, in Lanark (if they are the same couple ...).
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Hmmm... coincidence? The Lockharts might be falling into place, on opposite sides of Lake Ontario:
- John Lockhart, wife and 3 daughters, names unknown, all arrived from Lanark, Scotland, 1821, settled at Ramsay Township, just west of Ottawa.
- Twenty years later, three Lockharts, Robert, John & Jane - maybe siblings, all lived at or near Troy, New York, same time, same place that Ellen/Helen Lockhart m. James Kerr Clezie; records say they were born in Canada, while Ellen, slightly older, was born in Scotland.
Ottawa to Troy, not very far apart, connected by Lake Ontario. Waterways were the most efficient highways of the time, before railways took over. Hmmm... 2+2=?
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Cross in the post again, so I'll add this first:
Ottawa to Troy is actually overland -- Troy is in the far east of NY State, right up against Massachusetts, well away from Lake Ontario, and an odd place to go from either Toronto or the Ottawa area. When I have driven it myself, I've crossed the St Lawrence at Massena NY, then driven down the Lake Champlain waterway -- from Ottawa in the olden days, it could have been the Ottawa River to Montreal, and then down.
I actually would query whether that Ellen Lockhart in Troy had anything to do with Canada at all, just because Troy is such an odd place to end up. But apparently either she or James Crezie or both did have some connection with Toronto, from the other info you have.
Anyhow -- see below re Jane. ;)
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From FS, 1861 Ontario census
Jane Young, 15/1846, Ramsay, Lanark, sheet 57, line 2
Stephen Young, 17/1844, same, line 1
Robert Young, 14/1848, same, line 3
I can't find any other Young of an age to be a parent on the same or preceding page. Have to look at Anc'y!
Can't find Henry Cavers in earlier censuses. He's a farmer in Ramsay in 1901, born in Ontario, with daughter Jennie E, Jr., 1880. Jeannie Cavers is the only birth showing to the couple in the index.
I also know the name Cavers in that neck of the woods. ;) (Someone with the same name as a person born c1850 in the censuses.)
1860
John Lockhart 67/1793, born Scotland; Ramsay, Lanark, sheet 67, line 11,
John Lockhart 31/1830, single, born Ontario ... line 12
(i.e. no wife on page; shown as widowed in 1871)
Jane Lockhart, 35/1826, single, born Ontario ... line 13
>> so this knocks out the Jane who married Robert Leach in NY as one of this family, since that Jane was born in Scotland, and more to the point, married in the US in 1853. Same year of birth though! Unless something dreadful happened between 1853 and 1860 and she went home (and somebody in NY state in 1850 just inferred from her accent that she was born in Scotland). I sure haven't been able to find Jane and Robert Leach in censuses in the US or Canada.
No other Lockharts in Ramsay in 1871.
1881
John Lockhart Jr is in Ramsay; no other Lockharts there.
Aha, the Cavers connection in Ramsay.
Thomas Cavers born c1849 married in 1874 -- mother Margaret Lockhart, father Thomas Cavers.
Henry Cavers 1846 must be another son of the couple. Yes, marriage to Jennie Young in 1878 shows parents as just Thomas and Margaret Cavers.
Margaret Cavers must be a daughter of John Lockhart who immigrated in 1821, and a sister of John Lockhart Jr 1830, who was uncle to Henry Cavers.
Margaret Lockhart and Thomas Cavers also had a child William Cavers who married Margaret Young in 1856 in Ramsay.
If you ever do need to find descendants of this Lockhart clan, you have lots of male Cavers to be getting on with.
1881
Margret Cavers, 56/1825, widowed, born Ontario, living in Beckwith, Lanark
fixed some typos
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Amazingly, I have discovered that the Cavers with whom I am acquainted is indeed a descendant of the Lanark Cavers, and in particular of a son of the very person I had in mind born c1850.
However, the father of that c1850 Cavers, who married in Perth, Lanark, Ontario, was not Thomas Cavers who married Margaret Lockhart. He was a John Cavers shown in the 1861 census in Bathurst, Lanark, as born 1816 in Scotland.
I can't locate the Thomas Cavers + Margaret Lockhart household in 1861, but I would be fairly confident that Thomas Cavers, son-in-law of John Lockhart born c1793 in Scotland, was a brother of John Cavers born 1816 in Scotland.
I haven't seen the descendant in quite a few years, but he is named in his parent's recent obituary, so he's still around someplace! And I see what looks like his uncle in the phone book on line. One of them might know about descendants of Thomas, brother of their own Cavers ancestor in Lanark County, who was the husband of Margaret Lockhart, daughter of John c1793 Scotland who immigrated to Canada in 1821 with three daughters.
I think I've got that right ...
The generations seem to be very long in that family, and names kept in the male line, so it might be a good bet that there's family knowledge floating around.
Well my goodness.
http://www.cults.freeserve.co.uk/ancestry/dougfam/pafg04.htm#23158
"Thomas (Cavers) married (1) Margaret LOCKHART. Margaret was born in 1820 in Scotland. She died in 1848 in Appleton, Lanark, Ontario, Canada."
The Cavers family is from Roxburgh, but there is no other info there about Margaret Lockhart's family.
And the other Cavers I'm talking about is also there (I'm just being cagey to protect the living's privacy), and was indeed the brother of the Cavers who married Margaret Lockhart.
Ah, possibly even easier:
http://resources.rootsweb.com/~guestbook/cgi-bin/public_guestbook.cgi?gb=1500&action=view
a message from a descendant of Thomas Cavers, with email address.
That means she is a descendant of Margaret Lockhart, and might possibly have info about that Lockhart family that would rule them out as yours ... or not. ;)
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What proof do you have that George was James' father and his mother Jane Lockie? Marriage certificate didn't have parents - did his death certificate?
You are assuming that the passenger list for Mrs. Clazie and 3 children in 1832 are yours and that James emigrated with his parents. Do you have any indication of his parents in Canada or the U.S.?
Have you explored the possibility that James emigrated directly to the U.S. and was not in Canada until after his marriage and that his parents remained in Scotland? On that same thought Ellen's emigration might have been directly to the U.S. as well and it was not inconceivable that she emigrated alone or with a group of people who resided in her area of Scotland but were not family related.
Debbie
Added: Now find George and Jane on the 1861 census Toronto. Still ,how do you get to the Lockie marriage?
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conflicting info at some bit of Anc'y:
"Born in Almonte, Lanark, Ontario, Canada on 1825 to John Lockhart and Jane McMillian. Margaret married Thomas Cavers and had 3 children. She passed away on 4 Feb 1897 in Carleton Place, Ontario, Canada."
I think the death is all wrong. (Well, I dunno. Margaret Cavers born c1825 Canada, per the informant, died 1897 in Beckwith, Lanark. She might have been a replacement Margaret? Where did the info at that site about her dying in 1848 in Appleton come from?)
But a mother's name - ! Which could of course also be wrong, if this is just somebody plucking a Lockhart out of the air. I've seen that pair in the parish records.
John Lockhart and Jean McMillan married 12 Aug 1816 in Lesmahagow and had children, per familysearch:
Elexis Lockhart 30 Oct 1816, Lesmahagow, Lanark female
Ann Lockhart, 1816, Lesmahagow, Lanark
Elexis ... could have got called Ellen ... ?
Also in Lesmahagow, to John Lockhart and Janet Millar:
Margret Lockhart 15 Sept 1820
No marriage for that one; could it be a mistranscription of McMillan?
Kinda interesting ...
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cosmac, I was saying the same thing about Ellen: independent (or otherwise) immigration directly from Scotland to the US has to be considered.
A migratory trajectory from Scotland to either Lanark County or York, Ontario, and then to Albany, NY, is just a little odd.
But there does seem to be evidence that James and Ellen Crezie were in Toronto, or have I remembered that wrong?
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cosmac: parish record at FS
James Clezie 11 Jan 1816 christened Edrom, Berwick, Scotland
parents George Clezie, Jean Lockie
marriage of Jean Lockie and George Clezie, 20 Jun 1813, Edrom, Berwick
I and heiserca listed the children of the marriage a couple of pages back.
(edit - posts 16 and 17 on page 2)
(heiserca, you know that Jane, Jean, Jennie, Jennet, Janet ... are all interchangeable)
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I do read the posts and don't dispute that George Clezie and Jane Lockie had a number of children between the years of 1816 and 1829!
How does this specifically relate to James Clezie who married Ellen Lockhart. There is so much speculation on this thread that I'm trying to pinpoint a few definites. Is there any documented evidence of James as the son of George Clezie and Jane Lockie or just a really good guess or simply the only recorded marriage that shows up on Family Search.
Nothing wrong with really good guesses but facts are even better!
These comments are not meant to be "snarky". Hard to ask questions without someone taking offense - print doesn't convey tone and people are quick to assume the worst. Genealogy is all about questions.
Heiserca - I asked previously if you had contacted the cemetery to see if they had more information than what was on the online index. It might be worth trying as different people might have given information to the cemetery and for the death registration. Perhaps you'll find it's been a waste of time but a stamp and a letter is worth it in my opinion. I've written many cemeteries and the results have varied but I've never regretted making the effort.
Have you tried tracing the siblings of James you believe emigrated with him. I started looking at possibles with marriages to Matheson and Lovell but don't feel like looking for things you might already have. Siblings of James might lead to a clue about Ellen's familiy but only if you find someone who kept a good family diary or bible as they probably concentrated on the Clezie side.
In my opinion the pertinent records you have for Ellen didn't give you the information you need to trace her lineage. Her marriage took place in Troy. That county has a good website with a list of the various resources which might be useful.
I know you are excited about potential leads but it seems that you are trying to weave each possibility into fact and connecting families distant to each other in geography. Lockhart isn't an unusual surname and not every Lockhart is going to hold a clue to your Ellen.
Debbie
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Speaking strictly for myself, I am following the "ruling-out" approach that I have found to be an excellent approach when one is stuck. Call this "speculation" if you like. Speculation followed by investigation is how we commonly discover things.
I have just spent a very long time investigating those Lockharts in Lanark County, not to "prove" they are the right Lockharts, but to see whether some way could be found of ruling them out as the right Lockharts -- either by definitely accounting for the daughters who immigrated to Canada, or by finding a person in the present day who would have information about them.
I've succeeded in identifying the marriage and quite a few descendants of one of the daughters of the John Lockhart who immigrated to Ramsay Township, Lanark County, Ontario, in 1821. I haven't been able to sort out whether she is a Margaret born in Scotland or a Margaret born in Ontario -- there seems to be conflicting opinion on that and I haven't identified any records that constitute "proof" either way.
However, I have identified three ways of contacting people who might have info:
- a message on line from a descendant of Thomas Cavers, who would be either the husband or the son of Margaret Lockhart
- a family tree on line showing the Cavers family into which Margaret Lockhart married (I assume there's contact info there, forgot to check)
- my personal acquaintance with an individual who is descended from the brother of Margaret Lockhart's husband (I think I'm remembering that correctly), if all else failed
Since the info about John Lockhart who immigrated to Ontario 1821 with three daughters is consistent with the info about Ellen Lockhart who married James Crezie, and there is nothing actually known about that Ellen Lockhart, it seems reasonable to me to consider that family in the absence of any other candidate.
I am certainly not saying "this is your Ellen Lockhart and family". I think that's clear. I'm saying "here is information about that family and here are some ways of getting more information about them", and here are facts that are both consistent with and inconsistent with the hypothesis that this is your Ellen Lockhart's family.
Yes, I think heiserca was a little rash with those first Scottish baptisms and the ruling out process there -- it turned out that the fourth candidate was indeed ruled out, after first being settled on a little hastily. I did enquire about how that choice was made.
I'm sure any suggestions are going to be gratefully received. Tracing descendants of James Crezie's siblings is absolutely one of the best ways to go about looking for information, I agree. (My experience with that in my own tree, tracing descendants of my great-grandfather's siblings, proved hopeless, since those I found, although they had all sorts of strange and wonderful genealogical tales, had never even heard of their ancestors who were sisters of my great-grandfather, and we're talking the generation born 1845-1855 here ...)
And it may be that, in the end, there will be no answers.
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deleted - did it again; quoted my post instead of modifying it. ;)
(Gosh, maybe I really am a newbie and not otherwise as suggested elsewhere ...)
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Whoa! Someone stirred up a hornet’s nest! Questions flying in all directions...
The family story, summarized:
George Clezie (b. 1787) and wife Jean or Jane Lockie (b. 1790) were married at Hutton, Berwickshire, Scotland, 20 June 1813. (I was there last summer, also at the National Archives in Edinburgh, got family records both places.) The 2nd child of George & Jean/Jane - their 1st son - was James Kerr Clezie, baptized 4 Feb 1816 at Hutton. Middle name, Kerr, came from his paternal grandmother, Helen Kerr.
George, Jean & family moved to Edinburgh between 1817-20; more children born there: Jean (1820), Jane (1823), twins George & Janet (1825), Isabella (1828). The father, George, was listed in Edinburgh directories 1823-32, sometimes as a cabinetmaker, sometimes a “broker”.
The twins, George & Janet, b. 1825, both died from measles, late 1831. Their tragic deaths precipitated the family to flee Scotland. Last Edinburgh directory listing was 1832... followed promptly by “Mrs. Clazie and 3 children above 12 years” chugging up the St. Lawrence River from Quebec to Montreal aboard the “John Molson”, in July 1832. George and the younger children were on another boat. Jean or Jane was already pregnant: another Janet, was born 13 Dec 1832 at Montreal.
A 3-year gap... then George, the father, and James, the son, both were listed in Toronto directories, starting 1836, initially at the same address.
James struck off on his own for a while, went to central New York state. He married Ellen Lockhart at Troy, in June 1840, stayed long enough to be listed in the 1840 city directory, in nearby Albany, at 31 Liberty Street. Symbolic address! Free of parents at last.
James brought his bride Ellen back to Toronto, was listed in directories starting 1844. Their child Eleanor (also called Helen Orr) was born July 1849, died May 1852. Immediately after her death, James & Ellen left Toronto, moved to Cleveland, found in the 1853 directory.
The older generation, George & wife Jean or Jane, stayed in Toronto, now in their 70s. George died 21 Jan 1863, buried at Necropolis cemetery. His widow moved to Cleveland, lived with son James until her death in 1865. James died in 1880, aged just 64, and was laid beside his mother at Woodland cemetery.
Two daughters of George & wife stayed in Toronto:
- Isabella (b. 1828 at Edinburgh) married George French, moved to Brantford, had children, then joined the rest of the family at Cleveland in 1867, Confederation year.
- Janet (b. 1832 at Montreal) married Hugh Matheson, a merchant tailor, and had children. Hugh d. 1885, Janet lived until 1911; both died in Toronto. The Matheson monument at Necropolis has their names inscribed, along with some of their children. George Clezie, father of the family, rests alone in an adjoining plot, an unmarked grave.
What have I missed? No doubt someone will trip me up. Many, many thanks to all RootsChatters who helped fill in the missing parts of the story!
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Wow, my head has certainly been spinning!
Heiserca, wrt to the marriage of James and Ellen ....
I was wondering if you had seen the actual record? It does seem like you did since you mentioned the signature of the minister? Were there any witnesses?
If you haven't seen the actual record, my suggestion would be to order in the film to your local Family History Center (familysearch folk) to see what other info the record might hold.
Also, in the same batch there is a marriage record for a Margaret Lockart at the same church in 1852 (if I remember correctly) whose record may also provide a clue if she happens to be related. Looking at this record might also be worthwhile?
PB
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Oh good heavens, yes! Another Loc*rt in the same marriage batch in the same place one year earlier?! That calls for a look. FS has it as Lockhart, btw. Married Samuel Thompson.
(edit - oops - I was thinking one year earlier than the Jane Lockhart who married there - obviously 12 years later than Ellen!)
heiserca, no thoughts at all on all the Lockhart-Cavers research??
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My head too is woozy from all the new information elicited here! Quite remarkable. Give me a moment to digest it all... Not sure that I grasped the Cavers connection; have to reread that more slowly.
Re the James & Ellen marriage at Troy, polarbear - I saw the extract from the church record years ago, now can't find it. My recollection is just a single line: date, names of parties, signature of minister. As I can't find it now, shall certainly order the film and make another copy. Thank you for the suggestion.
The mention of another Lockhart marriage, same place, 12 years later, is definite news to me! Must have a look at that. Polarbear, can you please clarify "in the same batch" means on the same film? Thank you.
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at FS, if you click on the record for Margaret Lockhart (film 533483)
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/F64R-FX6
then you click on the batch
https://familysearch.org/search/records/index#count=20&query=+batch_number:M51096-1
and search within the batch -- I would make it loc*rt in all searches -- and Ellen is there, yes, same film number.
The Lockhart-Cavers thing in a nutshell:
John Lockhart + wife + three daughters immigrated to Ramsay Township, Lanark County, Ontario, in 1821.
His daughter Margaret (whether born in Scotland or a little later in Canada is an open question) married Thomas Cavers in Lanark County.
You can find on line
- a message from a descendant of Thomas Cavers (either Margaret's husband or her son) with an email address
- a family tree with these Cavers in it showing also the descendants of a brother of Thomas Cavers
I am personally aquainted with a descendant of a brother of Margaret Lockhart's husband Thomas Cavers and there is also a telephone listing available for another descendant, an uncle of the person I am acquainted with.
One of these people might have other information about this Lockhart family in Lanark County or know of other sources who might be related or have info.
This is all for the purpose of determining whether John Lockhart who immigrated in 1821 had a daughter who could be your Ellen or (more probably?) did not have a daughter who could be your Ellen. It seems that this John Lockhart may have had a daughter named Elexis, born in 1816, who seems to be about the only candidate in that family.
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Thank you, Janey. That’s remarkable... Elexis, b. 1816; Ellen b. 1816... maybe? Will certainly try to figure that out.
Troy, Albany & Schenechtedy are tri-cities in New York, at a strategic spot: where the Hudson River meets the Erie Canal. From New York City, take a barge north, up the Hudson River, turn west onto the Erie Canal, follow it all the way to Lake Ontario. Before railways, that was the most direct route from the east coast to the Great Lakes, Toronto, Cleveland, Chicago, the whole interior of the continent. That’s why Troy figures so prominently in 19th century records.
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Thanks for clarifying Heiserca regarding your research on the Clezie side. Sorry if I seemed rude questioning your facts but I've seen so many obvious mistakes on family trees. I've pursued many speculative trails in different family lines and some have proven to be accurate and others quite laughably wrong.
Still am not sure about the Ohio death registration for Ellen. Do you have or have seen the actual state registration for her to definitely rule out any parents' names listed?
Have you followed the children of Ellen and James forward in time. Family Search has records for what I believe is your William James married to Alice Leonard in 1878 Ottawa, Ohio. Various census and marriages for children show his birth as New York but the 1910 census in Danbury Ohio shows his birth as Ohio. An online ancestry tree for his son William Lester doesn't take Ellen's parentage back any further and an IGI submitted pedigree file also stops at Ellen.
Debbie
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Your questions were not rude, cosmac! Questioning is how we learn. Thank you.
Ellen died at Cleveland, Ohio. The procedure was: death information was compiled at City Hall, in a large book called “Record of Deaths”. That information was the basis of any death certificate issued later.
Ellen’s record of death has many spaces left blank.
Name: Ellen Clezie
Date of Death: 10/27/99
Place of Death: Cvd.
Married
Name of Father: (blank)
Name of Mother: (blank)
Age: 82 years, - months, - days
Color: W
Ocupation: (blank)
Religion: (blank)
Place of Birth: Scotland
Nationality of Parents: (blank)
Disease: (blank)
Direct cause of Death: Old age
Indirect cause of Death: (blank)
Physician: W.J. Bardeck
Last Place of Residence: 36 Brunton
Clergyman: (blank)
Undertaker: Black & Wright (Cvd)
Buried in Lot No. (blank)
Section No. (blank)
Cemetery: Woodland
Date of record: Oct 5, 1900
Why did it take nearly a year after her death to compile the death information? No idea.
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heh heh ... I mean this mostly in jest, but your Ellen being 82 yrs old on 27 October 1899 is a match with:
Elexis Lockhart born 30 Oct 1816, Lesmahagow, Lanark
(daughter of John Lockhart and Jean McMillan, possibly the family who immigrated to Lanark County, Ontario)
who would have been 83 on 30 October 1899. ;)
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Fantastic! Thank you, thank you, Janey. Elexis. Whoever came up with that name? And no wonder we haven't found her before!
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Seriously - I spoke mainly in jest.
The three daughters, Ann, Margaret and Elexis, were born in Lesmahagow, Lanark, Scotland.
There are marriages there for an Ann and two Margarets, but only the one birth in that specific location for each name. So whether that is the Lockhart family who went to Canada ......................... ? Odds are against, but the Lockhart family in Canada did have a daughter Margaret, who may have been born in Scotland (or been a replacement for a daughter Margaret born in Scotland).
On the other hand, that Elexis (a variant of Alexis I would think) could always have travelled alone to North America and become Ellen ...
Pure and utter speculation and only valuable as candidates to investigate!
I do strongly suggest contacting the person who posted the message on line (see the link a couple of pages back) saying they are a descendant of Thomas Cavers (husband or son of the Margaret Lockhart in Lanark County, Ontario), to see whether they know anything about the Lockhart family there.
edit - duh, thought to look at the 1841 census at Anc'y.
In Lesmahagow, there are no John/Jean Loc*rt of the right age, and no Ann, Margaret or Elexis (or Ellen, or female Alexis) of the right age, although they would likely but not necessarily have been married by 1841. Ditto in 1851 for Loc*rt born or living in Lesmahagow. There are a few other Loc*rts of the age of John and Jean (born in 1790s-early 1800s).
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As JaneyCanuck mentioned earlier, both marriages are apparently on the same film.
The extracts of both are, of course, on familysearch but I have found that the familysearch folks don't necessarily transcribe everything that is in a parish record. I hope you will find something else in the film that will be of assistance in your quest.
PB
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I found an online tree that includes the Elexis Lockhart mentioned here, born 1816 at Lesmahagow. It shows she died 30 Oct 1840 at Ramsay Township, Ontario! If that is so, she cannot be my Helen/Ellen Lockart, who died 27 Oct 1899 at Cleveland, Ohio.
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Well my goodness. Now, that may be the same person I found who said that the mother of Margaret Lockhart (daughter of John) who married in Lanark County, ON, was Jean McMillan -- which was what led me to that Elexis, the other daughter. The info about these people seems reliable.
So ... ruled out, it seems, which is what it's all about. The three unknown daughters, one of whom could have been your Ellen, have been identified and accounted for and ruled out.
The Lockharts John + wife + 3 daughters who immigrated to Ramsay Township, Lanark County, Ontario, in 1821 were not your Lockharts.
And while that may not be the answer one would have hoped for, it is progress!
(It turns out that there are a gazillion trees at Anc'y with the Thomas Cavers Sr. who married Margaret Lockhart, daughter of John, in Lanark County, Ontario, but no other Lockhart daughter info. Two trees say that the Cavers my acquaintance is descended from is a child of Thomas's second marriage -- which is false; his father was John, not Thomas. I gave up using trees at Anc'y as reliable sources a long time ago, after finding that my grx4 grfather who was a parish clerk in Cornwall, where he was hatched, matched and despatched in the 1700s, had a son born in Tennessee, and my Cheshire ancestor had a grandson 250 years older than himself ...)
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Troy, NY was not out-of-the-way from Ontario! The St. Lawrence was closed for much of the winter by ice. The Hudson River & Erie Canal then were the usual route to reach Ontario from the east coast. Troy was a central spot; all ships passed through Troy, often stopped for food, fuel, repairs.
2 Lockhart marriages at Second Street Presbyterian Church, in Troy, but they were twelve years apart:
11 June 1840 - Ellen Lockhart m. James Clezie
12 July 1852 - Margaret Lockhart m. Samuel Thompson
No evidence if Ellen & Margaret are from the same family; parents names are not shown in the marriage records. Dead end again.
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It isn't just "Ontario" in the case of the Lanark County family -- it's Lanark County, Ontario. I'm just not aware of much emigration from there to the US in that era. Lanark County was agrarian and reasonably prosperous by 1840 (the settling and clearing by Scottish and Irish immigrants was in the early 1820s), and people did not have the tendency to migrate south for opportunity. And yes, the St Lawrence was frozen (and there was considerable "cross-border shopping", even during the War of 1812, e.g.), but Lanark County is a distance from the St Lawrence. The Rideau Canal did run through Perth, of course, from 1831 onward. But for a young woman to have made her way alone from a farm in Lanark County to Troy, NY state, in the early 1800s (as would have been the case for a Lockhart daughter from Ramsay Township, since that family otherwise remained there), that would have been pretty odd, I would think.
Just for info on the settlement of that area:
http://globalgenealogy.com/countries/canada/ontario/lanark/resources/101063.htm
The York county area and southwestern Ontario, on the western end of Lake Ontario, that's different. Urbanization on both sides, economic development, lots of crossing over. With James Clezie's family being in Toronto, that would be the most likely Canadian source area for Ellen Lockhart, if she entered the US from Canada.
But I'm really still with other opinion expressed here: that Ellen Lockhart more likely did not enter the US via Canada, and rather entered directly from Scotland either alone (e.g. to work as a domestic servant) or with family, and she and James more likely met in the Troy area where she was based. She would have gone to Toronto after the marriage simply as his wife, going to her husband's family's home base, and not because she had roots there herself.
Just speculation, of course! ;)
Oh - and don't forget the Jane Lockhart who was in the 1850 census and married in the same area in 1853, if I'm remembering correctly.
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I think I posted before about John Lockhart born c1820 Scotland, living in Lansingburgh, Rensselaer, New York, in 1850 (with wife Ellen and children).
The 1820 census shows a John Lockart in Troy, Rensselaer county. Presumably he is a head of household, and very possibly the father of the John 1820 living in Lansingburgh in 1850, I might think.
I would really consider that family as the source of Ellen, who could be a daughter of the elder John / sister of the younger John. The 1820 image is available at Anc'y.
The Jane (1826), Robert (1834 but in Canada so maybe not) and Margaret (married 1842) seen in other records in the vicinity could be other children of the same father.
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Have you looked at the Troy NY film with the actual full original parish records on it? You indicated yesterday that you were going to order the film (see reply #60) so I am assuming not? As I mentioned yesterday, familyseach does not necessarily put everything in their extracts that is in the record itself. IMHO, you should not leave this stone unturned. The nominal coast of the film rental would be worth the price even if you glean no further info from it.
PB
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LDS Family History Centre has limited hours; when they are open, and my work schedule allows, the film will be ordered.
Until then, its all speculation; no evidence.
Marriage records don’t show names of parents. Dead end.
U.S census 1840 only names the head of family; the rest were mere numbers. Dead end.
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Absolutely, if you haven't seen the full record, as polarbear says, get it!
adding in response to last post: "Marriage records don’t show names of parents. Dead end."
Are you saying that records there always do not show names of parents, or just that what you have seen so far (transcribed) doesn't show them?
Remember the Cloydes?
In 1850, John and Ellen Lockhart in Rensselaer Cty NY have a daughter Margaret born c1849.
In the next census, 1860, that Margaret Lockheart c1851 NY is living in Chicago with Margaret Cloyd c1791 (Chicago is where that Margaret Cloyde from the 1850 died) in a McNeill household.
Robert Lockhart 1834 Canada is in that same John & Margaret Cloyde household in Rensselaer Cty NY in 1850, working at the same occupation as John Cloyde (see my post 35 on page 4).
It does look like the Lockhart children of John 1820 and his wife Margaret are grandchildren of the Cloyd(e) couple. (Not sure how Robert Lockhart born c1834 in Canada fits into it. If John Lockhart c1820 Scotland was married to a Cloyde, his children would be Cloyde grandchildren. Robert Lockhart would maybe be John Lockhart brother, i.e. his wife's brother-in-law ...)
I'm looking at all this stuff at Ancestry using only the free search and seeing what records tell me when I hover over the link. The full details might be more illuminating (e.g. does the 1860 specify that Margaret Lockheart in Chicago, born c1851 in NY, is a niece of Alex McNeill's much younger wife Jane born c1824 Scotland, whether Margaret Cloyd is mother-in-law of McNeill, etc.).
At her death in Cook Cty, she is Margaret Henderson Cloyde, born in Paisley, Scotland c1789. John Cloyde shows in 1850 as born c1787 in Scotland.
She was probably Margaret Henderson 17 Dec 1797, Abbey (Paisley), Renfrew, Scotland, daughter of James Henderson and Ann Knox.
I can't figure out the Cloyd(e) business. In 1850 there is a James Cloyd born c1798 living in Hoboken NJ whose place of birth I just can't read at FS (with apparent children Harriet and John G, and grandchildren? Adelia and Madeline who must have been transcribed differently), but that's the only other trace I see. Can't find a birth for John c1820 son of John Cloyd and Margaret (Henderson) in Scotland.
This is info relating to Lockharts in Rensselaer Cty NY that I would give some thought to!
Adding: in 1880, John Lockhart, widowed, born c1820 Scotland, is also in Chicago. I'd say he's the John Lockhart who was in Rensselaer Cty NY in 1840, likely brother of Jane, Margaret, Robert.
I've added several more bits of information to the above as well.
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In 1850 in the Cloyde household in Rensselaer Cty NY there is a John Boyd c1827 Scotland.
In trying to find a Jane for the Jane McNeill in the 1860 household in Chicago born v1824 Scotland, who I am guessing is a daughter of Margaret Cloyd in the household, I found this birth:
Jean Boyd
18 feb 1826
Lesmahagow, Lanark, Scotland
father John Boyd
mother Margret Henderson
batch C11649-5
Other children of same parents in that batch: Andrew 1823, Janet 1828, John 1821
And also: Grizzle (I kid you not) 1819.
Is Cloyd just some strange misreading of Boyd??
Mary Dow born c1819 Scotland in the 1850 Cloyde household, with three toddlers born in NFLD and NY, has to be a Cloyde daughter as well.
Oh, and: in 1840 there is John Cloyd in Troy and also Richard Cloyd in Troy. In 1870, Richard A Cloyde - upholsterer - born c1822 NY is in NYC with wife and no children.
To try another nutshell:
There is some connection between the young Lockharts in Rensselaer Cty NY in the 1840-1855 period and this John & Margaret Cloyde couple born in the 1790s in Scotland.
Robert Lockhart c1834 Canada is living with them in Troy NY in 1850.
Margaret Lockhart c1850 NY, daughter of John Lockhart c1820 Scotland, is living with them in Chicago in 1860.
If our Ellen Lockhart were another sister of John, Jane, Margaret (and Robert?), she would be connected with the Cloyds by what seems to be the marriage of John Lockhart c1820 Scotland to a Margaret in NY state.
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I'm sure I'm boring you to tears, but it beats working, for me. ;)
http://ngb.chebucto.org/Vstats/vs-24-presb-bap-2-stj.shtml
(did a general search at ngb.chebucto.org for George Dow - Mary Dow's two eldest children in the Cloyde household in 1850 were Margaret and George, so I figured that name would catch her son or her husband)
Mary Henderson Dow
father George DOW
mother Mary LOCKART (LOCKHART)
born July 25 1847 at St. Johns NFLD
baptised Aug 12 1847
So when the 1850 US census says she was born in NY, it seems to be incorrect. -- Oh, no, oops, the one in 1850 is a month old, so is a replacement Mary. Or is the child shown as Margaret in the 1850, and the Nfld baptism record should say Margaret. Baptism of George Dow 1849, same parents, is also on that page.
So anyhow, I think this is what we're seeing.
Margaret c1797 wife of John Cloyde was originally Margaret Henderson and married to a Lockhart.
These Lockhart children, now including Mary c1819 Scotland, were her children by her first marriage.
So Robert c1834 Canada would likely be a child of a son of Margaret Henderson Lockhart before her marriage to Cloyde? Or a nephew ... or something ...
Margaret Henderson married William Lockhart, 07 Sep 1811, High Church, Paisley, Renfrew, Scotland
(Note that Margaret Cloyde's death record gives place of birth as Paisley.)
A Mary Lockhart born 01 Jun 1830 in Scotland died 1910 in Chicago.
There are loads of Loc*rt births in Paisley at FS, but none with parents William Lockhart and Margaret Henderson.
Records that are there:
Mary Lockhart married George Dow 14 Sep 1846, Glasgow, Scotland.
Margaret H White, born 25 Jul 1847 in NFLD, mother Mary Lockhart born England, father Geo Dow, died in Chicago 19 Dec 1915.
I know nothing about passenger records.
I wonder whether there would be any record of William and Margaret Lockhart and children travelling to the US or Canada, or John and Margaret Cloyd/e(?) ...
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Unfortunately all those names mean nothing. Not the slightest hint of a connection to Ellen/Helen. Still have idea who were her parents, or where. Pure guessing.
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Well, of course they mean nothing -- because you know nothing of Ellen's family. Are we not keeping an open mind / thinking outside the box, now?
What they are, is a Lockhart - Rensselaer county connection. And that's at least as plausible a source to look at for your Ellen as an elopement of an unidentiable Ellen Lockhart from Toronto to Troy.
Is this all not a matter of leaving no stone unturned?
This is the only stone I'm seeing to turn, at the moment.
A family of Lockharts in Rensselaer county, where your Ellen Lockhart married.
And compiling all the info one can about them, to see how/whether your Ellen might belong to them.
Either finding a connection in records, or finding descendants of the Rensselaer county Lockharts who know about their ancestry and can confirm or deny a connection.
As I've mentioned, I've spent years doing that with one particular family of mine -- the mysterious name-shifting gr-grfather. I finally, a few years apart, found a descendant of each of his surviving sisters. One had a family tale as nonsensical as the one I had, but different (her ancestor, the sister of mine, was allegedly a "Miss Montmorency from France" when she was in fact a Miss Hill from Cornwall); the other, whose own gr-grfather was even worse than his wife, sister of my gr-grfather, for name-shifting, had a completely fantabulous and false tale of both her ancestor's name and his origin, and had never heard of his wife, her own gr-grmother, my gr-grfather's sister. So finding descendants is not always helpful! But I've just found a mutual descendant of my grx4 grandparents in Nottinghamshire, over on that board, and that may well help me find my missing link between them and me.
A Margaret Lockhart married Samuel Thompson 1852, Second Street Presbyterian Church, Troy, Rensselaer Cty, NY - same church as Ellen's marriage
A Jane Lockhart married Robert Leach 1853, First Presbyterian Church, Lansingburgh, Rensselaer Cty, NY
At the latter church we also have baptisms of the children of a John Lockhart.
Margaret Lockhart 1851 who appeared in the 1860 census in Chicago with Margaret Henderson Lockhart Cloyd was apparently a replacement for the Margaret Lockhart daughter of John and Ellen Lockhart in the 1850 census:
Margaret Henderson Lockhart christened 08 1851
First Presbyterian Church, Lansingburgh, Rensselaer Cty, NY
father John Lockhart
mother Helen (appear as Ellen in census)
film 533484
-- middle name Henderson, clear indication of connection to Margaret Henderson Lockhart Cloyde, of course; John Lockhart, father, would be the son of William Lockhart and Margaret Henderson who married in Paisley in 1811.
Also
Ellen Robina Lockhart, same parents and place, christened 1854
Elizabeth Faulkner Lockhart, same parents and place, 1852
Not exactly the same place as your Ellen's marriage, but same county, same era, and same denomination. ;)
The fact that baptisms for none of the apparent children of William Lockhart and Margaret Henderson born in Scotland after their 1811 marriage can be found (by me at present) -- edit: that's cannot be found by me -- suggests to me that it's quite possible they had a daughter Ellen/Helen along with Mary, John, Jane?, Robert? ... all of whom appear in censuses in Rensselaer Cty NY. The parish records that would show their children's births just don't seem to be at FS.
And in view of the connection between the mother, Margaret Henderson Lockhart Cloyde, and Robert Lockhart born c1834 Canada, in the 1850 census (son? grandson?), there may even be a Candian connection there after all.
The William Lockhart + Margaret Henderson 1811 marriage is shown at ScotlandsPeople. SP also shows 4 Lockhart births 1811-1835 in Renfrew County to a William and Margaret (5 births in total using spelling Loc*rt). I can't see any more detail, but guessing finds Mary, Jean and John. Those births do not appear to be shown at FS. I couldn't guess who the fourth birth was, but it was apparently not *len or el*.
Process of elimination ... dog with bone ... the fourth child's name began with A...r...c -- ?? Oh of course, Archibald. But Jean was spelled Lochhart, so that leaves one. And that one didn't seem to start with any of the 26 letters of the alphabet. What am I doing wrong? It would take 1 credit to see the 5 Loc*rt births 1811-1835 to William and Margaret!
Argh, it was a third "J". Janet.
I wonder whether the middle initial H for Robert H Lockhart c1834 Canada was for Henderson.
(I need to clear my eyes. I just read the name of the mother of a Monroe Henderson Lockhart at FS as Fattie May Roy. Mattie Fay ...)
(I've tidied and added a bit to this message too.)
And I have to ask one more thing: does the marriage record for Ellen Lockhart and James Clezie definitely say that she was unmarried at the time of that marriage?
She was about 24 at the time, if born 1816. William Lockhart and Margaret Henderson married in 1811. It's conceivable that they had a son, name unknown, born 1811-1818-ish, who married an Ellen and died, making Ellen a Lockhart by marriage and daughter-in-law of Margaret Henderson Lockhart Cloyde. Just a thought.
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Are you acquainted with the person who has in their tree at GenesReunited
Ellen Lockhart born 1816 Troy NY
?
That person doesn't seem to have James Clezie or Crezie in their tree.
Someone else does have three George Clezies: ... Oh, you know that person. ;)
In post 17, page 2, you list children of Ellen Lockhart and James Clezie (and I add my notes here):
Margaret Jane (James Clezie’s mother was alternately called Jane / Jean)
>> The known mother of Mary Lockhart Dow and John Lockhart in the 1850 US census in Rensselaer county, and probably of Margaret Lockhart who married Samuel Thomson in 1852, was Margaret Henderson Lockhart Cloyde.
Mary (origin unknown)
>> William Lockhart and Margaret Henderson Lockhart Cloyde had a daughter Mary
William James (source of William is unknown; James from the father)
>> The apparent father of Mary Lockhart Dow and John Lockhart in the 1850 US census in Rensselaer county, and probably of Margaret Lockhart who married Samuel Thomson in 1852 and Jane Lockhart who married Robert Leach in 1853, was William Lockhart.
It isn't conclusive of anything, but it is very consistent with the Rensselaer Cty Lockharts.
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Let's give this one a rest. After 9 pages of chasing chimeras... running off in all directions... not a single new fact has been learned about Ellen's origin. Summer is here - get outside and enjoy it! Thanks all for your help.
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Yes, Sir.
Or we could all just do as we like and refrain from issuing instructions to others ... and consider that where some of us are, the weather at the moment is not at all enjoyable, being about to turn from intolerable heat wave to monsoon in the next hour, and that someone still recovering from a broken limb may look for entertainment at the keyboard rather than on the hot city streets ...
Apologies for not coming up with the desired answers. And for spending time trying to find ways of finding them, and in fact accomplishing quite a bit, actually.
Because, personally, I think that the possibility that your Ellen Lockhart was a child of William Lockhart and Margaret Henderson subsequently Cloyd/e, and the sister of Mary Lockhart Dow, Jane Lockhart Leach, Margaret Lockhart Thompson, John Lockhart and possibly Robert Lockhart, all of these people having lived in Rensselaer Cty NY at the relevant times, is the absolute best and strongest and most sensible possibility that has been produced to date.
And since you had previously been told there were no Lockharts in Troy before the Civil War (the 1860s), well, that's some new facts there, I'd say. A whole ball of new facts.
Given that Robert Lockhart 1834 was born in Canada, it is in fact possible that he was the son of Margaret Henderson Lockhart who was then widowed and met and married John Cloyde here, and the family emigrated to NY state ... or that she had lived in Canada with William Lockhart and emigrated to NY state where he died, and married John Cloyde there -- and so James Clezie travelled to Troy to marry Ellen (whether she had stayed in Canada when her mother emigrated, say, or not) -- not to elope from his family, but because that was where her family lived.
In 1850 there is a strange nest of young Cloyd women in Troy Ward 7 -- a few pages away in the same book as where Margaret Henderson Lockhart Cloyde is found living with her second husband and her daughter Mary Lockhart Dow: Amy, Sarah, Charlotte, Ellen, Jane and Rebecca Cloyd, aged from 32 to 16 in that order, with not an occupation among them, the youngest two born in NY and the others in England ... before registration, of course. In addition, in 1870, a Richard Cloyde in Syracuse NY born c1822 in NY (in 1860 his birth place is England, in 1850 it is NY, and he is in the 1840 in Troy Ward 3), is an upholsterer, as John Clloyde and Robert Lockhart were in 1850.
No way to tell from that whether any of those children are Margaret's, or they are all John's from before he married Margaret, or they aren't related at all, although plainly Richard is his, and the girls almost certainly would be. But one might guess they are all John's alone (which seems to put him in NY state and not Canada), since we do have Robert Lockhart born c1834 in Canada in the 1850 Cloyde household, i.e. he is the same age as the youngest Cloyd girl.
The likelihood that this Lockhart family in Rensselaer Cty NY is not your Ellen's ... well, it may not have been, but, well, hm.
And hm. Interesting that some of this info was public knowledge some time ago ...
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,595985.html
One more little edit: have finally found evidence of the John Cloyde family in England.
Baptism of sons:
Richard, 1818, Chichester, England
John, 1816, Chichester, England
- parents John Cloyde and Abigail; no further trace of Abigail.
John (wife Roda/Rhoda) and Richard (wive Elvira/Eliza) are both in US censuses.
Maybe this info will be of interest to someone who searches the forums some day. ;)
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So, my eyes do not deceive me! :o
None other than Janey Canuck - researcher extraordinaire no less.... ;D
Heiserca - you are so fortunate to have caught Janey's eye with your query. She may not have posted much on this site but......she is extremely well known in other genealogical quarters for her amazing abilities. Convoluted her replies may be, but she is rarely wrong and, she has been known to 'outwit' professional genealogists. In fact, other competent researchers are known to turn to her when they hit a brickwall - they know that if Janey can't sort out the problem then it's doubtful anyone else can.
It may take time to follow her way of thinking, but perseverence and co-operation will be well worth it. ;D
R.
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I took the time this past weekend to follow the CLOYDE/HENDERSON/LOCKHART/DOW lines outlined by JaneyCanuck.
The theory that a widowed Margaret Lockhart (nee Henderson) married John Cloyde does seem to track with the inclusion of Mary Dow in the household in 1850 and the subsequent evidence of the Dow family in Chicago as well as Margaret Cloyde.
With the marriage of Ellen in Troy I think you might try and find some evidence in newspapers Heiserca for deaths or marriages of some of these people as it might give you some more clues. The county website for Renssaelaer County also indicated that burial records for Troy are available from the LDS church and this is another important avenue for you to follow.
Heiserca you give me the impression that you just want a history for Ellen and are impatient because it can't be eaily supplied. Because she died and married without any parental information you can only hope that if you relook at the marriage document you will find, as suggested, a witness name that will be a family member.
If your choice is to stop looking for Ellen's past now and decide to revive your search at a later date please remember to add to this existing thread instead of opening a new one.
As I collected information I started ticking off what was redundant but soon forgot to so some of the following might be duplicate of what was previously posted. Aplogies for that.
1860 census Chicago George Dow with wife Mary and children Margaret 13 b. NFLD, Mary J. 7 b. Penn, Marion 5 b. N.Y., William 2 b. Illinois
1870 census I can't find Mary and children but George Dow is living with Margaret Cloyd
1880 census Chicago George Dow with wife Mary
Aug 02, 1850 on the ship Emily from Newfoundland to New York George Down (his occupation is always slater or roofer) 34, wife Mary 30, Margaret 3 and George 18 mos.
George Dow d. 17 Mar 1899 Chicago. b. 1816 Scot. buried Forest Home
Mary Lockhart Dow b. 1818 Scot, d. 4 Jan 1899 Chicago. buried Mt. Olive
Marion J. Dodd b. 27 Aug 1857 N.Y., d/o George Dow (Scot.) and Mary Lokhardt (Scot.) d. 31 Jan 1911 Chicago. buried Forest Home
Samuel Thompson Fielding b. 01 April 1880 Chicago, s/o Margaret henderson Fielding b. Troy N.Y. and Henry Fielding b. Leeds Eng.
1880 Chicago census Henry Fielding, wife Margaret H., and children Lavinia, Nettie, William, Helen, Samuel.
Nettie Ann Fielding b. Chicago, d/o Henry Fielding and Margaret Lockhart married Samuel Angul Martin b. P.E.I., s/o Samuel martin and Sarah Campbell 28 Nov 1901 Paynette Columbia Wisconisn
Lavinia M. Criswell, b. Dec 11, 1871 Chicago, d/o Margareth Lockehart b. N.Y. and Henry Fielding b. Eng. d. Dec 19, 1927 Chicago, wife of Frank Criswell. Buried Oakwood
Helen E. Fielding b. 1879 Chicago, d/o Henry William Fielding and Margaret Lockhaert married Alfred J. Trythall, s/o James Trythall and Ida Maddox May 3, 1905 Hillsdale, Michigan.
Henry Fielding d. 06 Dec 1888 Chicago. B. 1848 England, occupation printer. Buried Rose Hill. An online family tree shows he married Feb 17, 1871 Chicago. The tree does not have any information on the parents of Henry or Margaret.
Debbie
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Oh royd. Where's the blushing idiotface?? People who know me know I cut my teeth on that gr-grfather of mine, whom no amount of "traditional" genealogical investigation would ever, ever have found or identified. It was the magic of search engines and the coincidence piled upon coincidence that they threw up, whether serendipitously or through hard slogging, that did it. I am pretty sure that my on-line mentor in England (like some here, no doubt) simply thought I was insane, as I related my theories to him over some months. Then one day he went to a local records office in a parish in another county, for his own research, and found the few lines on paper from 150 years before that clinched my wild theory: my gr-grfather's baptism, with the occurrence of the known (now obviously fake) surname and the hypothesized (never heard of) surname together in his sister's name. His message to me was: I don't believe it; you did it all wrong, but you got the right answer.
It's the multidimensionality of situations like this that makes them hard to put on paper ... or pixels. It's really like building a four-dimensional pyramid as one goes along. Person X has something that matches with Person Y, but only if we know "ABC" about Person Z ... I put a nutshell version in one of the other threads that lays it out more clearly, but it still has to be seen as a web of evidence, rather than a straight line leading to "the answer" ... because sometimes there isn't one:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,595931.msg4583275.html#msg4583275
To which the details cosmic has very kindly followed down and posted now, about some of the lines down from William Lockhart and Margaret Henderson, add a lot more flesh. And on the question of published BMD info, I have to say that, being the obsessive I am, I did find and search through all of the newspaper archival databases for Troy marriages and deaths referred to in one of the other threads:
http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~nytigs/TroyNewspaperProject/TroyNewspaperProject.htm
and found only what was already known here, e.g. the Margaret Lockhart marriage, and one Cloyd daughter marriage I had already found. (Given the absence of any English baptisms at FS for those six girls, it's possible, although it seems unlikely, that they're unrelated.)
And what's missing is what has always been missing: any link between the now reconstructed and reunited Lockhart family in Rensselaer Cty, with all its apparent members and their histories, and our Ellen Lockhart. If there were only one bit of paper -- a witness name on a marriage certificate, an informant name on a death -- that put her in that picture, we could call the job done.
At least this kind of compilation of a spectrum of possible family members, and in particular the numerous other surnames associated with them all, means that if such a link is ever found, it will be apparent that it is a link, and not just a random name that tells one nothing.
And look at all the names to search family trees for now. ;)
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As I said.....convoluted! ??? ::) ???
However, follow that convoluted path Heiserca, and you may just find that pot of gold at the end of the rainbow! ;D
R.
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cosmac -- one more question!
John Cloyd household in Troy Ward 4, Rensselaer, NY, in 1840
Richard Cloyd household in Troy Ward 3, Rensselaer, NY, in 1840
I understand there will be only a head count, but it is broken down by sex, and also by age.
If it should be the case that some or all those Cloyd girls were living with John, we'd have no hope of determining whether there were Lockharts too. ;) But it could be interesting to see the composition of the household.
For instance, if Robert Lockhart c1834 were there, he would be the only male person in his age group, I think. The absence of any male person aged 5 to 9 would mean the household was still pure Cloyd and not yet blended with Lockharts.
By process of elimination using the free search at Anc'y, which allows searches for only under 20 years vs. 20-49 years, I find:
- the Richard Cloyd household had 3 persons under 20 and 1 person 20-49 (4 free white persons total)
- the John Cloyd household had 8 persons under 20 and 1 person 20-49 (10 free white persons total, so one was over 49).
The 8 would likely include the 6 Cloyd daughters seen in 1850 and probably son John (who would have been about 16). So it seems doubtful there were any Lockharts there. Unless maybe some of the Cloyd girls were living with Richard ...
If there is a finer breakdown for that year, it would be more grist for the mill, anyhow!
I do also wonder about T L Lockland in Troy in 1840, as shown at Anc'y, and whether that might possibly be a mistranscribed Lockhart. One never knows!
I considered one other in 1840: a William Lockhart household in 1840 in Verona, Oneida County, NY. A total of 5 free white persons -- one is aged 20-49, three are under 20 ... so one must be over 49. That would fit with one spouse born 1790 or earlier, one spouse born after 1790, and three children. Verona is on the route from the Niagara border crossings to Troy, just east of Syracuse, about 100 miles west of Troy. (Syracuse is where John Cloyd's son Richard lived later.) However, there is a Wm Lockhart household in Rochester in 1850 that probably accounts for that 1840 household (he was born c1780 Ireland, his wife c1790 Ireland, and there is one daughter c1824 NY). So I think that puts paid to them. Just more ruling out!
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Hey, you folks who know more about US resources than I do -- is there any chance of finding a death/burial for Robert Lockhart born Nov 1834 in "Canada (Eng)" (both parents born in Scotland), per the 1901 census when he is Robert H (Henderson?) Lockhart, a sexton living in
ED 18 1st Precinct New Orleans city Ward 3, Orleans, Louisiana, United States
?
Of course, unless a family member was still in contact with him and provided info for the death registration, it isn't likely to tell us anything about family.
Unfortunately, again per that census, he was still an alien, so there would be no naturalization record. And he never married.
The interesting thing about that 1901 census is that it says he has been in the US 63 years / since 1836. That provides a date for when the Lockhart family settled in NY state, assuming again that he is a son of Margaret Henderson Lockhart (Cloyd) and William Lockhart.
If he was a sexton, presumably Presbyterian like the entire family in Troy (and the Clezies), possibly some kind of church record?
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Debbie and all,
There is another tree with Samuel Thompson Fielding that has parents of Margaret H (Henderson) Lockhart as John and Ellen (no Maiden surname) Lockhart.
The marriage index image for the marriage of Henry Fielding and Maggie H Lockhart is also available to view through this tree and corroborates the marriage date given above (in case it wasn't on the other tree).
PB
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Yup, polarbear, that is the John and Ellen Lockhart in the 1850 census. They had a daughter Margaret in that census who must have died within months, since Margaret Henderson Lockhart was baptised in 1851, and she is the one living with Margaret Cloyd in the next census who then married Fielding.
One never knows what people might know but have not put in their tree!
We've moved on a page - I was posting a query about Robert Lockhart at the bottom of the previous page as you were posting - I'm poking around at Presbyterian church history in New Orleans now ........
edit - from 1902:
http://www.storyvilledistrictnola.com/churches_nola.html
The church would have been one of
Canal Street Presbyterian Church
Corner of Canal and Derbigny Street
First Presbyterian Church
(complicated history, not sure where the church built in 1857 is
... ah, the church's website says it was Lafayette Square)
Lafayette Church
On Magazine, between Jackson Avenue and Philip
So which one was nearest his home in Ward 3 .......
edit: Lafayette Square is in the third ward, so First Presbyterian, most likely.
Its website: http://www.fpcno.org/
In 1901, Robert was on North Street, which no longer seems to exist, but the next household was on Poydras Street, which is adjacent to Lafayette Square.
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The 1840 John Cloyd Troy census breaks down as
10 free white people in the household
Males 10-14 - 1
15-19 - 2
50-59 - 1
Females 5-9 - 1
10-14 - 4
40-49 - 1
Debbie
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Oh, thank you! I had just nagged you by PM before I saw this. ;)
So no Robert Lockhart in the household (he would have been 6 yrs old) -- but I wonder who the three under-20 males were! with Richard being off in his own household. (Who is in that one??) The two 15-19 could be boarders / young upholsterer employees, I guess.
And five of the six Cloyd girls from 1850, with one old enough to be off as a domestic servant or such somewhere else.
There was a Cloyd girl in 1850, Rebecca, born c1834, i.e. aged 5-9, but we know of no Lockhart girl who would have been that age.
I would imagine that Robert Lockhart's 1901 census info is accurate -- that he immigrated to the US from Canada in 1836.
So in 1840, the Lockhart family was somewhere in the US, but not with the Cloyd family.
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Here's something.
1840 US census, in Cobleskill, Schoharie, NY -- looks like just under 40 miles east of Troy on what is now Interstate 88.
Oops, I left out the name! -- William Lockhard. They do not seem to be there in 1850.
Nine free white persons in total.
3 are aged 20-49.
5 are under 20.
So 1 is 50 or over.
Two parents, two adult children, and five younger children?
Children under 20 in 1840 could have been old enough to marry around 1850 (John, Jane and Margaret Lockhart in Troy/Lansingburgh).
And an Ellen born c1816 would have been 24ish in 1840 ... one of the adult children?
Margaret Henderson Lockhart Cloyde shows in 1850 as aged 60 / born in 1790, which would make her 50 in 1840. A little rounding in 1850, and she would be 49 in 1840. ;) Lockhart and Henderson married in 1811 so could have children nearly 30 yrs old in 1840.
So ... we need the breakdown! And is there a male person aged 5 to 9 in that household??
And here's one I somehow missed in the 1850 US census.
Fanny Lockhart, aged 38 / born c1812, no occupation stated, born Canada (or hm, immigrated from Canada?), in Albany. Oh my oh my -- she is a "Penientiary Convict"! For "Disorderly".
Not something one would likely be locked up for, for long. Our very bad luck that she decided to get disorderly the week of the census.
And oh my goodness, more -- this one spelled the German way. ;)
William Lockhardt, aged 23 / born c1827, born in Canada, in Buffalo. Living in the household of Mary Jewett born in Scotland with a daughter born in Canada and a daughter born in NY, next door to a Thomas (Santas?), 27, born in Scotland.
And the occupation of this William Lockhardt and his next-door neighbour?
Upholsterer.
If he was in fact born in Canada, and if he is part of our Lockhart clan, this could help to date their presence in Canada before 1836.
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1840 census for William Lockhard Cobleskill
Males
under 5 1
5-9 1
10-14 1
30-39 1
Females
5-9 1
10-14 1
20-29 1
30-39 1
60-69 1
Your William Lockhardt, age 23 in Buffalo was born in Scotland not Canada. I looked for him in later census as an upholsterer and only found one possible entry in Shelby Memphis Tennessee.
Wm Lockhart, b. 1830 Scotland, upholsterer, boarding with many unrelated names and professions. Entry directly underneath his was John Casey, 28, plasterer born in Canada. In later census occupations don't line up for William under simple searches of his last name.
Debbie
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Sorry, I confused myself on young William the upholsterer -- of course it says born in Scotland where I was looking, not Canada.
And he's in Shelby Tennesee thereafter, you say.
Well my my. Robert Lockhart 1834 Canada is in Shelby Tennessee in 1860 -- as RH Lockhart (I think I vaguely alluded to that a while back; it's the only other record I've found of him before 1900 in Louisiana).
In 1860, RH Lockhart, 1834 Canada, is in
Shelby, Tennessee
Ward: Third Ward Memphis
-- I can see that at FS, but not the image.
And sure enough, there is Wm Lockhart, 1830 Scotland, in
Shelby, Tennessee
Ward: 2nd Ward City Of Memphis
Want to have a look at Robert and see what he's up to?
Regardless, I think we have here another member of the William Lockhart + Margaret Henderson family, and another narrowing of the time frames.
William born 1830 Scotland
Sometime between 1830 and 1834, the family went to Canada.
Robert born 1834 Canada
Robert (and presumably the rest) immigrated to the US in 1836.
And hang on -- 1880, William Lockhart, 1831 Scotland, plumber, in Chicago, wife Maria born in New York State.
Also there in 1870, same details, occupation miller.
Oh, weird. There's a double.
In 1880, in Kansas, farmer, born 1830 Scotland, wife Mary, 10 years younger, born NY state.
And in 1900, in Kansas, born Feb 1831 Scotland, farmer -- but with immigration year of 1831.
No, I think the one in Kansas is a strange shadow. I wonder, though, whether there might be a cousin relationship.
In 1870 and 1880 what seems to be the William from NY state and Tennessee is in Chicago where everybody else is, he's born in Scotland and wife is born in NY state -- it's the same one, I'd say, 1850-1880, jack of all trades though he was.
But the 1840 William Lockhart household ... it's a couple aged 30-39 with their kids, it looks like, and a widowed mother. Doesn't fit our Lockharts in Rensselaer County ...
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And here's something funny:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,595985.msg4586311.html#msg4586311
Black's Surnames, has the name Crevie/Crevey, curtailed forms of MacCrevie, and Clerie in Galloway. I don't see anything for Clezie etc'. Given that "Z" was the Scots letter "Yoch" and generally pronounced as "Y", how was it pronounced?
Reply 36, page 4, in this thread:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,601912.msg4579515.html#msg4579515
Cloyde might easily be a mangled version of Clezie! We have seen Clazie, Clazey, Clayse, Clayce, Clacy, Clezy, Clazy, even Clizzee.
There was a John Clazey, born late 1787 or early '88, last known at Ford, Northumberland, in the 1841 census, then... went walkabout, disappeared, left wife and children behind. Wouldn't it be a wonder if you have tracked him down!
The only problem is that while we have established that John Cloyd did have children in England, he appears to have had children in NY state in the 1830s and been residing there in 1840 ... Dang. But it still does open the door to lots more speculation. ;D
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James Clezie & Ellen Lockhart married at Troy, New York, 11 June 1840. The best guess so far is that they met in Toronto and eloped. But it is only a guess. Their children were:
...
William James (source of William is unknown; James from the father)
William could be the wife's father.
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Cross in the post again, so I'll add this first:
Ottawa to Troy is actually overland -- Troy is in the far east of NY State, right up against Massachusetts, well away from Lake Ontario, and an odd place to go from either Toronto or the Ottawa area. When I have driven it myself, I've crossed the St Lawrence at Massena NY, then driven down the Lake Champlain waterway -- from Ottawa in the olden days, it could have been the Ottawa River to Montreal, and then down.
I actually would query whether that Ellen Lockhart in Troy had anything to do with Canada at all, just because Troy is such an odd place to end up. But apparently either she or James Crezie or both did have some connection with Toronto, from the other info you have.
There was another batch of Clazies in Putnam County, which is on the Hudson between Albany and New York. I have always suspected that the appearance of Clezies in Troy was not unrelated to that fact.
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Hello, T Michael. If you read the thread and not just the opening post, that is what some of us have surmised (i.e. that William was Ellen Lockhart's father).
William Lockhart married Margaret Henderson in 1811 in Scotland.
In 1850, Margaret is with her new (apparent) spouse, James Cloyd(e) in NY state.
With them is her daughter Mary Dow, born and married in Scotland, and son Robert Lockhart, born in Canada.
Other Lockharts in the area who appear to be her children are John, Margaret and Jane.
So if Ellen was a child of that family, a sibling to the others, there was no question of eloping; she married James Clezie in Rensselaer County, NY state, simply because that was where her mother and siblings lived.
Ellen Lockhart is not yet in evidence in NY state before the marriage.
However, her two children William and Margaret are the two names that were as yet unaccounted for in James Clezie's family. The names match the couple described above.
Do read through the thread, and if you have any ideas, some of us would be very interested to hear them!
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there I go quoting myself instead of modifying again -- deleted
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There was another batch of Clazies in Putnam County, which is on the Hudson between Albany and New York. I have always suspected that the appearance of Clezies in Troy was not unrelated to that fact.
Tell us your connection, TMS! In this particular case, there isn't really any Clezie in NY state -- just James Clezie who went there from Toronto and married Ellen Lockhart. (Whether he met her there or went there to marry her, or went there with her to marry, we don't know.) He and Ellen promptly moved back to Toronto, then elsewhere in the US.
So probably our Clezie isn't connected with the Clazeys in Putnam County, although of course they could have been related back in Scotland. ;)
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What proof do you have that George was James' father and his mother Jane Lockie? Marriage certificate didn't have parents - did his death certificate?
You are assuming that the passenger list for Mrs. Clazie and 3 children in 1832 are yours and that James emigrated with his parents. Do you have any indication of his parents in Canada or the U.S.?
A number of people have been researching the Clazies (however spelt) for some time. Nearly every Clazie found has been fit into a single family descended from a William Clasie who first appears in a baptismal record for a son dated 1670 in Berwick (see http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=tms2&id=I3120). Of course, there will be mistakes, but it is not likely that anyone of that name will pop up out of nothing. Enough is known about the family as a whole it is relatively easy to narrow down the possibilities for a Mrs. Clazie and 3 children to the point that only one makes sense.
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Hello, T Michael. If you read the thread and not just the opening post, that is what some of us have surmised (i.e. that William was Ellen Lockhart's father).
The thread is 10 pages long (now 11); if I hold off replying until I've read the whole thing, I'll never remember what I wanted to say.
William Lockhart married Margaret Henderson in 1811 in Scotland.
In 1850, Margaret is with her new (apparent) spouse, James Cloyd(e) in NY state.
With them is her daughter Mary Dow, born and married in Scotland, and son Robert Lockhart, born in Canada.
Other Lockharts in the area who appear to be her children are John, Margaret and Jane.
So if Ellen was a child of that family, a sibling to the others, there was no question of eloping; she married James Clezie in Rensselaer County, NY state, simply because that was where her mother and siblings lived.
I see no evidence that Ellen was part of this family.
Ellen Lockhart is not yet in evidence in NY state before the marriage.
Precisely.
However, her two children William and Margaret are the two names that were as yet unaccounted for in James Clezie's family. The names match the couple described above.
We, or at least I, know nothing of James's mother's family, or of his paternal grandmother's family. The unaccounted-for names could very well have come from there. William and Margaret are such common names (the Clazies are inordinately fond of them) that little can be deduced from their presence.
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There was another batch of Clazies in Putnam County, which is on the Hudson between Albany and New York. I have always suspected that the appearance of Clezies in Troy was not unrelated to that fact.
Tell us your connection, TMS!
I come from the branch of the family that went to Baltimore some time between 1812 and 1819.
In this particular case, there isn't really any Clezie in NY state -- just James Clezie who went there from Toronto and married Ellen Lockhart.
Yes, there were some. George Oswald Clazey, married to Margaret Hall, is in the 1850 census in Carmel. George and James were first cousins; their fathers were brothers.
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Fantastic! Thank you, thank you, Janey. Elexis. Whoever came up with that name? And no wonder we haven't found her before!
And no wonder she changed it to Ellen.
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I guess the thing is that there is no question raised in this thread about the Clezie side of this family. The question in this thread and the numerous others on the same subject is about Ellen Lockhart.
I said: In this particular case, there isn't really any Clezie in NY state -- just James Clezie who went there from Toronto and married Ellen Lockhart.
And disregarding that I said "in this particular case", i.e. in the case of James Clezie and Ellen Lockhart, you replied: Yes, there were some. George Oswald Clazey, married to Margaret Hall, is in the 1850 census in Carmel. George and James were first cousins; their fathers were brothers.
Yes, that's interesting, and as I said: they could have been related back in Scotland.
Because in this particular case, the family of James Clezie was settled in Canada by 1840, and his parents remained there, and his siblings are accounted for, and none of them is in NY state ever.
You say: I see no evidence that Ellen was part of this family.
And again, I suggest you read at least this thread, if not the others. No one has suggested there is PROOF of her connection with the family. There are numerous indications of a connection, in particular the fact that the names of the two of her children that are otherwise unaccounted for were the names of the Lockhart/Henderson parents of, apparently, all the other Lockharts of the same generation in Rensselaer County c1840-1855.
"Proof" would be a birth record in Scotland that could then be somehow established to be the birth record of this Ellen. Even if a birth record that fits were to be found, that could not be done, as there is apparently nothing on any other record of hers, i.e. marriage or death, that states her parents' names or a definite birthdate or place. One could only hope for her to turn up as witness on someone's marriage certificate, or informant on a death certificate, or the like. But that is unlikely to happen, as the family scattered, with some concentration in Chicago, and Jane and James Clezie were never there.
The fact is, however, that there are no Scottish birth/baptism records that can be found for any of the children in this Lockhart/Henderson family, not one of them (and for the one born in Canada, it was before records are available).
If Ellen did belong to that family and happened to have stayed in Canada when the family left for NY after the birth of Robert, if that was what happened, which seems to have been in 1836 (Robert's date of immigration to the US, from the 1900 census), when Ellen would have been about 20, then there will be no record of her in the US if she and James simply travelled to Rensselaer County to marry because that was where her family was. There would be no record of a young single woman, likely a domestic servant, in Canada, before 1840.
Ultimately, there may simply be no record anywhere that will establish who Ellen is. All we have now is the hypothesis that she was a daugher of William Lockhart and Margaret Henderson, because all of the available facts fit that hypothesis and none of the available facts refute it.
Perhaps you can do better, though! As I said, several of us are still interested. ;)
I trust you have noticed by now (re your quoting of the request for proof of James Clezie's parentage) that there really is no question here on the Clezie side.
TMS, you are replying to things completely pointlessly and just cluttering the thread with repetition. For one thing, it has been established that Elexis and the entire Lockhart family in Lanark County, Ontario, are completely unrelated to this query.
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Hey, you folks who know more about US resources than I do -- is there any chance of finding a death/burial for Robert Lockhart born Nov 1834 in "Canada (Eng)" (both parents born in Scotland), per the 1901 census when he is Robert H (Henderson?) Lockhart, a sexton living in ED 18 1st Precinct New Orleans city Ward 3, Orleans, Louisiana, United States?
I'd check the research guide for Louisiana on FamilySearch (assuming the guides still exist on the new site) to see what kind of records are available. It varies from state to state, and even at that relatively late date there was still no civil registration in some places.
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A hypothesis is useful but occasionlly must be checked against the facts. We still don't know names of the Lockhart children who lived at Lansingburgh during the relevant time. When was the first census that showed names of all househod members?
In 1935, the Phillip Schuyler Chapter of the Daughters of the American Revolution (DAR) at Troy, NY, documented all death and marriage records that were published in Troy newspapers between the years 1812-85. No version of Clezie (Clazie, Clazey, Clazy, Clezy) and no version of Lockhart (Lochart, Lockart, Lockheart) - appears on that list. Was there a separate newspaper for Lansingburgh back then? Were these families just transient, in the area briefly? Were they too poor to publish newspaper announcements? We don't know.
Does any similar list exist of births/baptisms in the Troy-Lansingburgh area during the 19th century? Or would those only be recorded by individual churches of the time?
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When was the first census that showed names of all househod members?
1850.
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I notice you had a hypothesis, and were rather firmly wedded to it. ;)
The couple eloped from Toronto, days of difficult travel away to Troy, and took up residence on the symbolic Liberty Street, James finally free of his parents ... him then returning a year later to work with his father, wasn't that how it went? ::)
The rest of the world isn't obligated to provide you with a proven case for anything. You were looking for help, and some people tried rather hard to provide it.
You're most welcome!
Oh, and we definitely do know the names of Lockhart children who lived in Rensselaer County (includes both Lansingburgh and Troy) at the relevant time.
As of 1850:
Robert Lockhart born 1834 Canada in the Cloyde household
Jane Lockhart (mistranscribed variously as Locklort and Tocklart) who subsequently married there
John Lockhart in the 1850 census with wife and children
Margaret Lockhart who subsequently married there
Mary Lockhart Dow, already married with children
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Janey, it isn't necessary to turn every single post into a barbed confrontation. This isn't a personal challenge to you or your worth as a human being. No need to be defensive by tacking an insult onto every message.
The question is about the facts: one of the earlier posts in this long, long string said there were 4 daughters in the Lockhart family at Lansingburgh. The 1850 census names only 2 males and 2 females in that household: presumably the parents, one daughter, one son. Three daughters remain nameless - if that earlier information was correct. Maybe it wasn't? But if it was correct, can anyone suggest a means to discover names of those daughters? For example, what churches existed at Lansingburgh & Troy around 1840, and where can their records of baptisms, etc. be searched? The Clezies were nominally Presbyterian but not devout. What about Lockharts? The 1860 census, Cleveland, Ohio, said Ellen Lockhart/Clezie was born 1816 in Scotland. What place in Scotland? If the Lockharts were all born in Scotland, the likelihood is small of finding any useful record on this side of the Atlantic.
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Hi,
Having been taught by someone who shall remain nameless, it's always a good idea to Google for info. ;)
I've just typed in Churches in Lansingburgh and quite a few hits have popped up. Looks as though there were a whole bunch of them but, as the ages of the churches are given, you should be able to work your way through them quite easily.
I would do more searching for you as I quite enjoy that sort of thing (am rubbish with census), but it's bedtime here in the UK.
If someone has already suggested my very simple thoughts, then I apologise profusely but it's too late for me to trawl through 12 pages.
R.
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When someone has been as dismissive as you have of the efforts made by others to help, trust me: I don't take it as a challenge to my worth as a human being, and I don't feel any need to be defensive.
The question is about the facts: one of the earlier posts in this long, long string said there were 4 daughters in the Lockhart family at Lansingburgh. The 1850 census names only 2 males and 2 females in that household: presumably the parents, one daughter, one son.
I'm sorry, but I don't know what household you are talking about. There is no Lockhart family in Lansingburgh in the 1840 US census.
The 1850 census gives the names and personal details of everyone in a household.
The 1840 census gives only the head's name and categorizes the others according to sex and age.
The 1850 census has
- John Lockhart (1820 Scotland), wife Ellen, children William and Margaret in Lansingburgh
- Robert Lockhart (1834 Canada), mother Margaret Henderson Lockhart Cloyde, in Troy
- Mary Lockhart Dow (c1819 Scotland), mother Margaret Henderson Lockhart Cloyde, in Troy
- Jane Lockhart (1826 Scotland) in Troy
- William Lockhardt (c1827 Scotland) in Buffalo: same occupation as Robert and his Cloyd stepfather, and in 1860 in Shelby Tennessee where Robert is, and then in Chicago where much of the rest of the family is in 1870 and 1880
Just to add to those matched sets -- the widowed John Lockhart (c1820 Scotland) is in Chicago in 1880, and New Orleans in 1900 where Robert (c1834 Canada) is. They all go together. There is no question.
(Something I'm pondering: were John and Robert in Scotland for part of the intervening period? as there are coincidental events there: a John and a Robert who both married women named Orr in Glasgow and had children, and each had a child with middle name Henderson ...)
Obviously all these people are related: all children of Margaret Henderson Lockhart Cloyd and William Lockhart. And they are simply the only Lockharts in the vicinity of Rensselaer County by 1850.
I did mention the five children born in Renfrewshire to a William and Margaret Lockhart shown at scotlandspeople, and suggest you pay the minimal credits there to view those results and learn that Margaret's birth surname, to see whether the mother was Margaret Henderson, and the children are some of these children in NY state.
Meanwhile, you may be referring to the William Lockhard family in Cobleskill NY in 1840. The household members may not match up --
1840 census for William Lockhard in Cobleskill NY
Males
under 5 1 (?)
5-9 1 (could be Robert c1834 Canada)
10-14 1 (could be William c1826 Scotland)
30-39 1 (could be father William)
(with son John already flown)
Females
5-9 1 (?)
10-14 1 (could be Jane c1826 Scotland)
20-29 1 (could be Margaret)
30-39 1 (could be mother Margaret)
60-69 1 (a parent/in-law?)
(with daughter Ellen already flown - as an hypothesis - and daughter Mary marrying in Scotland in 1846)
-- but this may conflicts with the idea of Ellen marrying in Rensselaer County in 1840 -- except that James Clezie was apparently living in Rensselaer County and she may already have been. Otherwise, the family isn't a bad match for the Lockharts in Rensselaer County circa 1850.
But I don't believe anyone was asserting that this 1840 household was in fact the family of the Lockharts in Rensselaer County. It was an avenue to explore. Whether or not it seems to pan out, I can't imagine deciding not to investigate it.
But if it was correct, can anyone suggest a means to discover names of those daughters? For example, what churches existed at Lansingburgh & Troy around 1840, and where can their records of baptisms, etc. be searched?
I guess we all left our magic wands at home. If anyone who had read this had the answer, they would probably have offered it. Meanwhile, we know that there were Lockharts married and baptised at the Presbyterian churches in Troy and Lansingburgh around 1850, in addition to Ellen:
- John married - his children baptised in the church where Ellen married
- Jane married - in the church where Ellen married
- Margaret married - in the Presbyterian church in Troy
The 1860 census, Cleveland, Ohio, said Ellen Lockhart/Clezie was born 1816 in Scotland. What place in Scotland? If the Lockharts were all born in Scotland, the likelihood is small of finding any useful record on this side of the Atlantic.
What place in Scotland indeed ... known only to readers who have chosen not to divulge the answer, I guess. The rest of us have just tried and failed.
William Lockhart and Margaret Henderson married in Paisley, Renfrewshire.
Several Lockhart couples can be seen baptising children in the area. There are no records for baptisms of children of William Lockhart and Margaret Henderson in Scotland at familysearch. Perhaps they moved to somewhere records are not accessible (note daughter Mary married in Glasgow), perhaps they didn't baptise their children, perhaps their children are the ones at scotlandspeople whose mother was Margaret Something.
NOTE: I have edited to add info above.
And I agree with royd ;) -- ask google!
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Let's not pretend we have just invented the wheel. Google searches have been done by various people over time without definitive results; hence the questions are asked here.
There have always been - and remain - a variety of possibilities:
(a) Ellen might be a daughter of the Lockharts from Lansingburgh
(b) she might be a recent immigrant unaccompanied by famiy
(c) she might be a young widow, original surname something else
(d) she might have met James in Toronto and eloped.
No scenario is inherently more probable than the others. We can try out different hypotheses but evidence is being sought.
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Personally, I'm not aware that I had re-invented anything heiserca. I was simply making an honest suggestion and was willing to help where I could.
I even have some credits for Scotland's People which I was willing to share but, after all the help you've been given, and the doubts you have cast on it, I'm not sure what it's going to take to convince you of anything to be frank.
Sometimes we can't have 'absolute proof' of everything we want in this world. Occasionally, we have to go by having faith in those who have greater insight, intuition and expertise than we have ourselves.
R.
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... after all the help you've been given, and the doubts you have cast on it, I'm not sure what it's going to take to convince you of anything to be frank.
What it will take is evidence. All the hypotheses put forward are great, and you need some hypotheses to start with in order to have something to test, but a hypothesis is not evidence. When confronted with multiple hypotheses (and 'none of the above' is always one of them, so it is always multiple), you can't just pick one and say it's true.
Sometimes we can't have 'absolute proof' of everything we want in this world.
We can never have absolute proof of anything (outside of mathematics). We can, however, have evidence. They are not the same thing.
Occasionally, we have to go by having faith in those who have greater insight, intuition and expertise than we have ourselves.
Faith is the belief in a proposition despite evidence to the contrary. Faith does not help the search for truth, historical, scientific, or otherwise. Science did not start to progress until people lost their faith in Aristotle.
I had planned to say something about the implicit assumption, in the quoted sentence, that a person who asks a question is acknowledging the 'greater insight, intuition and expertise' of those being asked, but the only polite thing I could come up with is that, while asking a question does acknowledge that the asker does not know the answer, it in no way acknowledges a general inferiority to all those who might hear the question.
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And I guess nothing I say gets through ...
The only way to find out whether something is evidence of something else is to INVESTIGATE IT.
Descendants of all the various Lockharts and Cloyds from Rensselaer County can be sought out, by various means, to see whether they have any family knowledge or documents about their family that would show, or disprove, a connection. (And a lot more straightforwardly, the search results I gave directions to at ScotlandsPeople could be checked in minutes to see whether they might be relevant.)
That is what I have done with my own families, and in particular, as I have mentioned, with the great-grandfather of mine who was a giant mystery. I did find a descendant of each of the two women I had identified as sisters of the person I believed was my great-grandfather. It took me years, first of just plain hard slogging searching to find the person who was my great-grandfather, and then more years searching for descendants of his siblings. When I found them -- one contacted me via notes I had left at Anc'y on all her ancestor's census records, and one finally turned up on one of the regular searches I did of family trees at GenesReunited for the unique surname in question, adopted by my gr-grfather's sister's husband after the sister's death -- they were able to confirm their connection with those ancestors, but had nothing to offer by way of information about the family but tall tales they had heard about their ancestors of that generation. But that, in itself, was confirming evidence of the relationship with my great-grandfather. ;)
Evidence/proof does not drop into one's lap from the sky, or even from the diligence of strangers. In many cases, information is only evidence (or not) once it has been used to obtain further information. It has to be INVESTIGATED. And it is up to the person to whom the information is provided to investigate it, to seek out further information, or not, as they choose.
And THAT is science.
And if a person asking a question does not respect the insight or intuition or expertise of the people they are asking, there is little point in asking.
And just for the record, since this all seems to be so unclear: *I* have NEVER asserted that any hypothesis is "true". I have advanced an hypothesis that seems so well matched to the known facts that it merits serious investigation, I have investigated it at some length myself, with considerable input from others, and I have suggested various avenues for investigating it further.
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Twist it whichever way you wish T. Michael, I stand by what I said.
It seems a shame that the OP has been given advice which they seem disinclined to explore, possibly because it doesn't fit in with their thoughts. I know that if someone had offered me so much help and advice, I would certainly check it out, even if I thought it was a wild goose chase. Sometimes, the most unlikely scenario can produce the answers we are looking for.
Personally, I have to go by faith in certain circumstances, as I know I have my limitations. I willingly acknowledge and trust the expertise of others who are clearly gifted and experienced individuals to help me out when I'm stuck. It's with the assistance of these good people that I will be able to improve my own skills and I'm always willing to learn.
R.
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Twist it whichever way you wish T. Michael, I stand by what I said.
What did I twist? No twisting was intended.
It seems a shame that the OP has been given advice which they seem disinclined to explore, possibly because it doesn't fit in with their thoughts. I know that if someone had offered me so much help and advice, I would certainly check it out, even if I thought it was a wild goose chase. Sometimes, the most unlikely scenario can produce the answers we are looking for.
We must be reading different threads. No one has refused to check anything out. Rick's last post simply listed the current guesses as to Ellen's origins, and stated that there was no evidence that favored one over the other. That is not a refusal to check anything out.
Personally, I have to go by faith in certain circumstances, as I know I have my limitations. I willingly acknowledge and trust the expertise of others who are clearly gifted and experienced individuals to help me out when I'm stuck.
Faith is one thing; trust is another. Trust is based on evidence: not just evidence of the competence and good faith on the part of the other person, but also one's own knowledge of the particulars of the case and also of the intrinsic probabilities.
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In my life, faith and trust tend to go hand in hand.
Maybe we should leave this until the OP reappears as it seems rather silly to be bandying things around in their absence.
R.
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In my life, faith and trust tend to go hand in hand.
We seem to be using words differently. Where you say 'faith' in this context, I would say 'confidence'. 'Faith' implies belief contrary to the evidence, or at least in the absence of evidence. If your trust is based on faith, then it is also based on contrary evidence. If your faith is based on trust (and the trust is based on evidence), then it isn't faith, because it is based on evidence.
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Oh, honestly and for pete's sake ...
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On the topic of checking the facts, instead of putting people down...
1850 census, Lansingburgh, NY:
John Lockhart, M, 30, b. Scotland
Ellen Lockhart, F, 26, b. Scotland
Margaret Lockhart, F, 2, b. New York
William Lockhart, M, 0, b. New York
The Ellen Lockhart mentioned in that census was the wife of John Lockhart; he was born about 1820 & she about 1824.
The Ellen Lockhart described over the previous 13 pages was b. 1816, so a few years older than the Lansingburgh couple. Ellen (who m. James Clezie) could conceivably be John Lockhart’s elder sister. Now that is a possibility worth exploring. Wouldn’t it be ironic if the 2 Ellens were sisters-in-law?
Does anyone know where in Scotland John Lockhart from Lansingburgh was born? John's children - Margaret & William - might reflect the names of his parents, back in the Old Country.
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I hope you're not suggesting that anyone ever proposed the Ellen Lockhart married to John in the 1850 census as being your Ellen Lockhart ...........!
On the topic of checking the facts, instead of putting people down...
Ellen (who m. James Clezie) could conceivably be John Lockhart’s elder sister. Now that is a possibility worth exploring.
What on earth did you think I had been saying for the last I don't know how many pages?!?!? Elder sister of ALL the Lockhart siblings in that family, as listed in my multiple posts to that effect. One more time just for fun:
The 1850 census has
- John Lockhart (1820 Scotland), wife Ellen, children William and Margaret in Lansingburgh (had children baptised at the church where your Ellen married; daughter ends up with Margaret Henderson Lockhart Cloyd in later census in Chicago)
- Robert Lockhart (1834 Canada), with mother Margaret Henderson Lockhart Cloyde in Troy
- Mary Lockhart Dow (c1819 Scotland), with mother Margaret Henderson Lockhart Cloyde in Troy
- Jane Lockhart (1826 Scotland) in Troy (married Leach at the church where your Ellen married)
- also Margaret Lockhart (married Thompson shortly after the census, at the other Presbyterian Church)
- probably William Lockhardt (c1827 Scotland) in Buffalo in 1850: same occupation as Robert and the stepfather John Cloyd, and is in Shelby Tennessee where Robert is in 1860, and then in Chicago where much of the rest of the family is in 1870 and 1880
-- Just to add to those matched sets -- the widowed John Lockhart (c1820 Scotland) is in Chicago in 1880, and New Orleans in 1900 where Robert (c1834 Canada) is. They all go together. There is no question.
-- Note that I am assuming that Robert Lockhart c1834 Canada (who immigrated to the US in 1836 per his 1900 census) is a child of Margaret Henderson Lockhart Cloyd, although he is much younger than the others -- he could be her grandson, and could even conceivably be a child of your Ellen; if a record of his death after 1900 (when he was in New Orleans) could be found, it might name his parents.
The question is whether your Ellen goes together with them.
It's a QUESTION.
Does anyone know where in Scotland John Lockhart from Lansingburgh was born? John's children - Margaret & William - might reflect the names of his parents, back in the Old Country.
!!!! I have referred, over and over and over, to the fact that the mother of all these Lockharts in Rensselaer County, NY, is
Margaret Henderson who married William Lockhart in Renfrewshire in 1811 and subsequently apparently married John Cloyd(e), apparently in NY state.
The John Lockhart you refer to baptised one of his children Margaret Henderson Lockhart.
The Mary Lockhart Dow in the Cloyde household in 1850 baptised one of her children Mary Henderson Dow.
Your Ellen had children William and Margaret.
I have said, over and over, that ScotlandsPeople finds five children born to a William and Margaret Lockhart in Renfrewshire between 1810 and 1830, names, as far as I can tell on a free search w/o paying to see results: Mary, Jean, John, Janet, Archibald. They do not show at familysearch. I don't know what the mother's surname was. I don't know whether they're connected. I haven't paid to look at the details.
If anyone KNEW, or had succeeded in figuring out, where John Lockhart or any of his obvious siblings in Rensselaer County were born, I think they would have said so by now. If you tell us what efforts you have made to find the answer, then we can be sure not to duplicate them.
cont'd because of length
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I know it can be difficult following someone else's reasoning on the monitor. That's why cosmac did the same searches for herself, and followed some of the people through to later censuses, to confirm the relationships among all these Lockharts. (For instance, the husband of Mary Lockhart Dow, George Dow -- I identified that marriage in Scotland and the baptism of their children in Newfoundland -- appears in a later census with the mother of Mary Lockhart Dow, Margaret Henderson Lockhart Cloyde.)
It's an intricate multi-dimensional web.
It might help for you to go through the whole thread carefully, disregarding all the irrelevancies like the Lockharts in Lanark County Ontario, and just make a chart of all the Lockhart children who are in Rensselaer County circa 1850 (plus William in Buffalo) and see how their paths intertwine up to then and after that.
Just put the Margaret Henderson + William Lockhart marriage at the top -- look it up at familysearch to see it there, to start.
Make a column for each person -- nothing is known about the father after the 1811 marriage so you could leave him out for now -- the mother and each child, and one for your Ellen at the end, and a row for each decade from 1810 to 1910. (The 1850-1859 row would cover the 1850 census and marriages/baptisms in that decade, for example.)
Enter the known facts for each person in the box for each decade under their name.
- where and when they were born, according to the censuses
- where they were in each census and with whom
- where and when and whom they married
- where and when their children were baptised and what their names were
- where their children were living and with whom in each census
- where and when they died, for those for whom that has been determined (and the death details, e.g. place of birth, parents' names)
All of the Lockharts - mother Margaret on the left and all her children in the columns to her right - will show overlaps throughout the chart. Your Ellen will be down the far side not apparently overlapping except for her presence in Rensselaer County around 1840 (when we don't have hard facts about where the Lockhart family in question was) - but with parallel dates and matching children's names.
(It's also a reasonable possibility that your Ellen was a cousin of all these Lockharts -- e.g. that her father was a brother of William Lockhart who married Margaret Henderson, the parents of the Lockharts in Rensselaer County (and later in Tennessee, Chicago and New Orleans) -- or that she was the widowed wife of another child of the family whose only family on this continent was her in-laws in Rensselaer County. Just to mention other possible hypotheses.)
I really think that would help to do that -- to chart it all out.
It would probably also be a good idea to take out a short-term or free trial membership at a site where you can consult the US censuses for all years and look up all the people in question yourself, once you have the chart showing where they are known, so far, to have been, and get all the details about where they all were and who was with each of them.
Kinesthetic learning -- there's no substitute for doing it one's self, for getting it to stick!
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Janey, not sure that anyone else can follow your line of thought. Maybe you have extensive Lockhart information that the rest of us lack? So many pages quoting yourself! - yet the picture remains as murky as ever.
There is still no proof that Ellen of Troy had any connection to the Lockharts at Lansingburgh. Maybe? Sure. At a moment in time - 1840 - they lived in close proximity, had the same surname. But proof of a connection... still waiting.
The names of Ellen’s children do not follow the traditional Scottish pattern. Four of those names also appeared in John Lockhart’s family (Mary, Jane, Margaret, William). But they are common names! My small tree has 96 Marys, 64 Janes, 92 Margarets, 156 Williams. With a singular exception - “Helen Orr” - all of Ellen’s children might easily derive their names from their father’s side of the family.
Thank you for your contributions here. They have been fascinating. I’ll try to follow your suggestion for making a chart. But I am missing all the information you have about the various Lockharts in Louisiana, Tennessee, Illinois, etc. and cannot justify the time and expense to accumulate it, purely “on spec” that they might be related. No idea where they fit. Maybe your posts will help some future researcher get over the hurdles.
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Why don't you tell the assembled breathless masses exactly what you want, and where to find it, and we'll just go fetch it for you ? ?
The information about Tennessee, Chicago, and New Orleans is all in this thread, assembled by me and cosmac mainly. All you actually need to do is read it. Of course, consulting the sources yourself, which are all identified, would probably be a really good idea.
You can't justify the time and expense to do that?
Well ... I guess if you can't, nobody else likely can. ;D
Of course, everything that I posted, myself, is available to you free of charge at familysearch, just as it was to me ... Only cost me my time.
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Save the sarcasm for someone who will appreciate it.
An online version of the 1841 census covers Berwickshire, Peeblesshire, Roxburghshire, Selkirkshire, Dumfrieshire, East Lothan and Midlothian - the southern counties. Only 27 Lockharts in that entire lowland part of Scotland in 1841:
19 in Dumfriesshire (17 at Durisdeer, 2 at Hoddom)
6 in Roxburghshire (5 at Roberton, 1 at Kelso)
2 in Berwickshire (at Hutton, where the Clezie family lived before moving to Edinburgh)
The biggest concentration of Lockharts by far is at Durisdeer, a small village in Dumfriesshire. Admittedly not a perfect test because my Lockharts had already left Scotland before 1841. But the overwhelming concentration there suggests it is worth detailed investigation.
Two other Lockharts lived at Hutton, Berwickshire, very near the birthplace of James Kerr Clezie. Their names were James, 55, and Margaret, 54 - the very names given to Ellen's first two children! And the perfect age to be her parents. Prime candidates for closer examination.
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Correction: James & Margaret were not the first two children of Ellen Lockhart, but her first son was indeed named James, and her first daughter was named Margaret. Which hints at a connection to the Lockhart couple from Hutton, Berwickshire.
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You can check the online tree at Ancestry for James Lockhart and Margaret Buchan who married 24 Nov 1806 in Berwickshire. Only 2 children are listed on the tree. Isabel b. 1807 and Hugh b. 1810. These children are named for the parents of James - Hugh Lockhart and Isabel Gow.
The tree shows James living with son Hugh in Haggerstown, Northumberland, England on the 1861 British census. The tree does not follow Isabel.
Debbie
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Thank you, cosmac. Surnames are a bonus!
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To summarize the previous 14 pages:
The origin of Ellen Lockhart - who married James Clezie on 11 June 1840 at Troy, New York, and died 27 Oct 1899 at Cleveland, Ohio - still remains unknown.
A large number of wild geese have been chased in conflicting directions, with no clear result. We have theories about her origin, some more probable than others, but no clear evidence. A few apparent matches can be definitely ruled out (they married a different person, or died a different place) while other Ellens / Helens just remain nebulous. A mystery woman.
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for info, now updated here:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=595931
wherein heiserca entirely adopts the Lockhart-Cloyde hypothesis and the suggestion that Ellen was the daughter of William Lockhart and Margaret Henderson (later Margaret Cloyde) of Paisley. :)
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I wondered why this thread had re-appeared. :)
Yes, you were right (as per usual) in your hypothesis Janey. Some people just take more convincing than others ;) R.