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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Durham => Topic started by: littlebootsy on Saturday 09 June 12 20:35 BST (UK)
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Hi all
I'm researching my mum's side of the family and have come up against something that's confused me no end...
I found a baptism entry for my 3rd Great Grandfather Joseph Botcherby for the 5th October 1834, however I can't find a birth register entry for him.
I know he lived in Washington for most of his life and married Hannah Dodds in 1858. they had 4 children, Richard in 1860, Ralph in 1862, Joseph jr (my 2nd Great Grandfather) in 1865 and Elizabeth in 1869.
Hannah re-marries in 1874 to a Joseph Walker and I have her living with him in 1881 with hers and Joseph Botcherby's children and his children from a pervious marriage.
I can't seem to find Joseph Botcherby's death certificate though, or anything relating to his death!
HOWEVER... Something confused me slightly. In 1871 I have Joseph living back with his parents Richard and Mary, but there's someone called George Harris, who is listed as the head's Grandson, but Joseph's son... Is this an error?
How do I find out when Joseph died? I know it was between 1871 and I'm assuming 1874 when Hannah re-married.
Unless Hannah re-married because Joseph had a mystery son who appeared on the scene so left him!
Sorry for the confusing and lengthy post... I just have no idea how to find out when Joseph died :(
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Welcome to RootsChat
Birth Registrations started 1st July 1837.
Stan
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Hi Stan
That would be why I can't find his birth entry! I didn't know that, thank you ;D I still have his baptism record though so that's not really a bother.
I'm more concerned about not being able to find his death entry! Or who this mystery "George Harris" person is.
I'm baffled :(
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Hi and welcome to Rootschat, re the"Grandson" on the 1871 he is clearly shown as the Grandson of the head of the household ie Richard, so it would appear that one of Joseph's sisters married a Harris, ie Mary Botcherby to (on same page) Henry Harris June 1856 Chester le Street 10a 451
Keyboard86
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HOWEVER... Something confused me slightly. In 1871 I have Joseph living back with his parents Richard and Mary, but there's someone called George Harris, who is listed as the head's Grandson, but Joseph's son... Is this an error?
Welcome from me as well :)
But George Harris isn't listed on the 1871 census as Joseph's son. He is simply entered as Richard and Mary's grandson.
Edit - sorry keyboard, you've already covered that :-[
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Did you notice that in 1971 Joseph is shown as "Imbecile"? That almost certainly means he had some sort of mental health problems and was unable to live alone and support his wife and family so he has returned to his parents.
Andrea
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I think the Joseph you are looking at in 1871 is unmarried, looking at the original image.
He is living with the Harris family in 1881 (RG 11 / 4983 / 92 / 1 )
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Hi all!
Ok that covers up the George Harris issue.
Regarding that, on Ancestry it says on the 1871 census that Joseph is his father, but that is obviously a mistake.
Name: George Harris
Age: 14
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1857
Relation: Grandson
Father's Name: Joseph Batcherby
Sillgen - I did not realise he was! This is interesting... Mental health issues are known in my family. My mother has schizophrenia. Very interesting indeed considering it's apparently hereditory!
Jen B - Are you sure? I'll have to look at that, I couldn't find an 1881 census for Joseph Botcherby!
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You might be right JenB. I looked at it and thought it was an amended Mar but it could be Unmar.
Littlebootsy - Do you have a marriage certificate to confirm Joseph's father's name? No point in chasing up the wrong tree.
Andrea
PS Always look at the original image - never trust the transcriptions!
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Jen B - Are you sure? I'll have to look at that, I couldn't find an 1881 census for Joseph Botcherby!
He is indexed as Joseph Botcherly.
He is living with his sister Mary Harris, (one of her children is called Mary Botcherby Harris).
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I don't have the marriage certificate for Joseph and Hannah, it's odered but it's not arrived through the post yet.
I have the marriage certificate for Joseph jnr and Sarah Ellen Brogden.
Joseph Botcherby jnr married Sarah Ellen Brogden (Ellen Brogden on the marriage certificate) in 1887. It lists his father as Joseph Botcherby (deceased).
I guess i'll have to wait for that marriage certificate to see if it's the right Joseph I've been chasing or not :(
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I think the Joseph living with Richard & Mary in 1871 and with Mary in 1881 (both in Chester le Street R.D.) died in 1882: Joseph Botcherby, aged 47, 2nd q 1882, Chester le Street 10a, 286.
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Where is Hannah in 1881? I can't seem to find them.
Andrea
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Thank you Jen!
It looks like the marriage between Joseph and Hannah broke down, possibly due to his mental health issues, and she re-married in 1874, he then went to live with his sister.
Of course I'm just speculating!
Would there be a divorce entry for Joseph and Hannah, or was that not the done thing back in those days?
P.S. Thank you ALL for your help on this! :)
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Where is Hannah in 1881? I can't seem to find them.
Andrea
Hannah re-married and is living with Joseph Walker. She's called Hannah Walker.
They lived with Richard Botcherby, Ralph Botcherby, Joseph Botcherby, Sarah Ann Walker, Joseph Walker jnr, Elizabeth Botcherby and Hannah Walker.
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and she re-married in 1874, he then went to live with his sister.
She was mostl likely committing bigamy in that case.
Divorce was most unlikely at that time - far too expensive.
You need that marriage certificate - too much speculation going on at the moment ;)
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Hi all in 1881 they are on RG11/4979/115/5
Keyboard86
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Yes, I got that but where? What is the census reference? We think you may have the wrong Joseph in 1871 - if he is unmarried. Needs checking more anyway.
Andrea
Thanks keyboard86!
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Yes, I got that but where? What is the census reference? We think you may have the wrong Joseph in 1871 - if he is unmarried. Needs checking more anyway.
Andrea
Thanks keyboard86!
The Joseph I have in 1871 is on:
ED, institution, or vessel: 9
Household schedule number: 254
Piece: 4993
Folio: 88
Page Number: 54
I don't know if he's unmarried or not, he's just living back with his parents with his nephew George Harris on the list.
EDIT - Wait, you already know that as you knew he was marked with mental health problems! Oops
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You do need to look at the image for the census if you can. Whether he is married or not is a vital piece of the jigsaw.
Andrea
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You do need to look at the image for the census if you can. Whether he is married or not is a vital piece of the jigsaw.
Andrea
Andrea, I've looked... I can't quite make out what it says. Can anyone else... [second entry from bottom]
(http://i47.tinypic.com/5fjlu0.jpg)
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I'd say it was unm(arried) - it certainly doesn't match the 'mar' at the top of the page - looks more like the unm just below it.
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Thanks JenB.
So it's either the wrong Joseph Botcherby, or Joseph and Hannah decided to un-officially end their marriage.
Either way, I guess I won't know until I get Joseph and Hannah's marriage certificate.
Thank you everyone for your help. Sorry if I frustrated anyone, I'm new to all this family history business and I get a bit confused :P
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Referring to Mary Botcherby marriage by keyboard86. Mary A. Botcherby (previously Mary A. Gallon) married Cuthbert Snaith 1856. Durham Registrars Certificates. It looks like she was a widow.
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Referring to Mary Botcherby marriage by keyboard86. Mary A. Botcherby (previously Mary A. Gallon) married Cuthbert Snaith 1856. Durham Registrars Certificates. It looks like she was a widow.
Hi so the plain Mary (not Mary Ann) who was born c 1838 and living with Richard, Mary, Joseph and Elizabeth in Washington, on census ref HO107/2394/684/36 was not the daughter of the above who married Henry Harris in June 1856 Chester Le Street?
Keyboard86
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According to freeBMD Cuthbert Snaith married Mary Gallon in Stockton Registration District in 1856 :-\
The marriage is shown as in Stockton on the original image.
I think these are two different marriages.
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one of Joseph's sisters married a Harris, ie Mary Botcherby to (on same page) Henry Harris June 1856 Chester le Street 10a 451
Just checked parish register index to confirm this - Mary Botcherby married Henry Harris, Washington, 1st May 1856.
Something seems to have gone haywire with Durham's indexing - a Stockton marriage seems to have been entered on their index instead of the correct Chester le Street one.
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This is getting more and more confusing! Haha
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I think you can discount that Mary A Gallon/Botcherby marriage to Cuthbert Snaith:
Mary A Botcherby married John Gallon in Stockton Parish Church in 1831.
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/NNVW-FZ7
There is a death of a John Gallon in Stockton, in 1st q 1845. He was aged 37 and buried at Bishop Middleham.
In 1851 Mary A. Gallon is a widow aged 42 living with her father, Robert Botcherby in Bishop Middleham. HO 107 / 2384 / 722 / 13
She marries Cuthbert Snaith in 1856, in Stockton R.D.
In 1861 they are living in Bishop Middleham RG 9 / 3696 / 92 / 8
Death of Cuthbert Snaith in Stockton R.D. 3rd quarter 1863 , buried at Bishop Middleham.
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Just to keep on the back burner for when you find out if we are looking at the correct family
Washington Holy Trinity:
Richard Botcherby born 5 Dec 1811, baptised 29 Mar 1812 1st son of Joseph Botcherby, weaver, son of Robert Botcherby native of Painshaw (Penshaw) by his wife Jane, daur of Richard Bygate, native of Sadberge
Robert Botcherby buried Washington HT 9 Apr 1826, died Gateshead, age 77
Jane Botcherby buried Washington HT 13 Mar 1817, died North Biddick, age 64
Marriage in Washington Holy Trinity:
8 Apr 1832 Richard Botcherby and Mary Scott
Baptisms Washington Holy Trinity:
Robert Scott Botcherby baptised 7 Apr 1833 s/o Richard and Mary
Joseph Botcherby baptised 5 Oct 1834 s/o Richard and Mary
Monkwearmouth St Peter:
Mary Botcherby baptised 4 Oct 1837 d/o Richard and Mary.
Janis
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Just to keep on the back burner for when you find out if we are looking at the correct family
Washington Holy Trinity:
Richard Botcherby born 5 Dec 1811, baptised 29 Mar 1812 1st son of Joseph Botcherby, weaver, son of Robert Botcherby native of Painshaw (Penshaw) by his wife Jane, daur of Richard Bygate, native of Sadberge
Robert Botcherby buried Washington HT 9 Apr 1826, died Gateshead, age 77
Jane Botcherby buried Washington HT 13 Mar 1817, died North Biddick, age 64
Marriage in Washington Holy Trinity:
8 Apr 1832 Richard Botcherby and Mary Scott
Baptisms Washington Holy Trinity:
Robert Scott Botcherby baptised 7 Apr 1833 s/o Richard and Mary
Joseph Botcherby baptised 5 Oct 1834 s/o Richard and Mary
Monkwearmouth St Peter:
Mary Botcherby baptised 4 Oct 1837 d/o Richard and Mary.
Janis
This is exactly what I have in my tree :) wether its the correct family or not is a different matter!
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The term imbicile had different meanings. He didn't have to be mentally ill as in schizophrenic--he could have had a head injury, or illness that might have left him with less than a normal IQ.
There were plenty of Richard, Robert, and Joseph Botcherby's in the Penshaw records.
My Sadberge records do not go far enough back to catch Jane daur of Richard Bygate baptism but I found a burial of an Anne Bygate daur of Richard and Mary Bygate buried 15 Nov 1791
Janis
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The term imbecile had different meanings. He didn't have to be mentally ill as in schizophrenic--he could have had a head injury, or illness that might have left him with less than a normal IQ.
Janis
Considering that householders, who could be semi-literate, were being asked to give information about medical disabilities without any definition of the terms being used the answer should be treated with caution.
Stan
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I'm starting to get really impatient now. I wish I had spent the extra money on getting the certificate delivered the next working day. I'd have it by now and this confusion could be (hopefully) solved! But no... I'll have to be patient :(
IF the certificate confirms that Joseph Botcherby who married Hannah Dodds, is the same Joseph Botcherby who went to live with his sister Mary Harris... Is there any way of finding out what happened to Joseph and Hannah's marriage?
I guess my next step would be to get Hannah and Joseph Walker's marriage certificate to see what that says about her marital status at the time of their marriage.
Also... If Joseph was classed as an Imbecile, although I must treat this with caution, would there be any medical records about his condition (if there was even one!)
The Botcherby's are so fascinating to me :D
Ooh, and one last question. How would I go about finding out where they are burried? Where would my first searching point be?
Sorry for all the questions... I'm addicted to this family tree malarky! :-[
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Hi you lovely lot.
I received the marriage certificate and Richard is Joseph's father! So him living back with Richard and Mary in 1871 is the correct person... either that or their's another Joseph with a father called Richard!
So... I guess my next step is Joseph Walker and Hannah Botcherby's (nee Dodds) marriage certificate to see what she claims to be on that one seeing as they married in 1874... Would be interesting to see if she claims to be a widdow, seeing as Joseph didn't (possbly) die until 1882... :o
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Glad you got it sorted out, and you also know what happened to Richards brother Joseph so that's one less Joseph to worry about ;D
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Thanks angelfish ;D
I wish someone had invented time travel... I'd love to go back and meet this interesting bunch! haha.
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I received the marriage certificate and Richard is Joseph's father! So him living back with Richard and Mary in 1871 is the correct person... either that or their's another Joseph with a father called Richard!
As a double check, were the occupations as recorded on the marriage cert the same or similar to those recorded on the censuses for Joseph and Richard?
As for finding out what Joseph's mental health/injury issues were, you may find something in the Gale Newspaper Archive (probably free through your local library service) or the British Newspaper Archive (pay to view, but the free search facility can be quite illuminating). If Joseph behaved oddly, he may have got a mention in the newspaper. The chance of finding proper medical notes is about zero, I'd say.
When you get your time machine, please can you let me know? ;D
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I received the marriage certificate and Richard is Joseph's father! So him living back with Richard and Mary in 1871 is the correct person... either that or their's another Joseph with a father called Richard!
As a double check, were the occupations as recorded on the marriage cert the same or similar to those recorded on the censuses for Joseph and Richard?
As for finding out what Joseph's mental health/injury issues were, you may find something in the Gale Newspaper Archive (probably free through your local library service) or the British Newspaper Archive (pay to view, but the free search facility can be quite illuminating). If Joseph behaved oddly, he may have got a mention in the newspaper. The chance of finding proper medical notes is about zero, I'd say.
When you get your time machine, please can you let me know? ;D
Joseph's dad does, Richard... It says he's a labourer and that matches the census entries... Hannah's dad Ralph though... I'm not entirely sure what it says! The marriage cert scan that they've given me is very dark and the only letters I can make out are "Pat" I'll have to have a look at an occupation list for possible matches, failing that see if someone can decipher it! I've not looked at Hannah's side of the family much though so I'll see if I can find the census entries for him!
Thank you for the tips on his possible mental illness. His mark as an Imbecile could've even come as a result of Hannah leaving him! (oh the speculation about this marriage is rife in my head :P) But it could also have been a contributing factor to Hannah leaving him, either way, he definitely isn't dead before she re-marries, so something must've happened for him to go back home and for her to take the children with him.
Don't worry about the time machine, as soon as I've found one, you guys on here will be the first to know and use it ;D