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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Topic started by: tac on Saturday 09 June 12 19:42 BST (UK)
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can any one tell me where in Wales this place is please,
Penmaen Jowe.
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Could the name be a mistranscription.
Have a look here,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_villages_in_Gower
Regards
Malky
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where did you find the name? If it's on a census, could you give the ref, please? Or which county it's in? There's more than one place name beginning Penmaen.
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hi,found it on ancestry in the 1901 census,
Elizabeth Jane Williams
Birth -1884, Penmaen Jowe
in 1901, Henllys, Cardiganshire, Wales
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looks like it says Penmaenpwl on the census
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penmaenpool
so this family in 1891?
Lower Wesley Court, Dolgellau, Merionethshire RG12/4642 folio 46 pg 26
Humphrey Williams head widower 42 stone mason
Ioan son 13 printer's apprentice
Anne C dau 10
Elizth J dau 7
Gwen Parry servant 45
Robert Parry boarder 15 printer's apprentice
all born Dolgellau
:-\
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forgot to give you the birth reg
Elizabeth Jane Williams sept qtr 1883 Dolgelly vol 11b pg 356
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Hi,
Looking at the actual transcription, I think it could read 'Penmaenpwl', which may be Penmaenpool, Dolgellau, in the county of Gwynedd.
Regards
Trish
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Gwynedd wasn't the county at the time as it was one of the ones created in 1974. It was Merionethshire as the census I posted above.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gwynedd
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hi,thank you all for your help.my elizabrth jane is down as being born in Penmaenpool in the 1911(d.o.b 1885) census,but as i understand it my elizabeths mother was called priscilla(might be a second name)this person belongs to my sister-in-laws family and i am trying to help her(she has no pc)to find the mother of elizabeth and help her with her family tree.
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another question re elizabeths mother, i know that she died at elizabeths home@1935-1940,not much to go on i know, but is there any way i can find out who she was from this info?
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you could search Freebmd for Priscillas dying at that time in the registration district that covered where Elizabeth Jane was living.
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hi osprey,yes i have checked free bmd +FindMyPast + ancestry but cant find the death on any of them.
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do you have Elizabeth jane's marriage cert to give you her father's details? Can't see a Priscilla in the right sort of area with a daughter.
:-\
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i have 2 marriage certs for elizabeth,on the first one(1903) no fathers name given,on the second one(1918) the fathers name is Evan williams,deceased,quarryman
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who did she marry and where? Who were the witnesses? What address is given on the 1903 marriage? It may help to trace her, so the more info you give, the more likely we are to be able to trace her.
Where was she living when her mother died?
Given that she was in Henllys in 1901, there's this possible from 1891, Henllys & Ysgubor y Coed both being in the parish of Llanfihangel Genau'r Glyn
Pentrebach, Ysgubor y Coed, Cards RG12/4586 folio 4 pg 1
Thomas Jones head 53 labourer b. Sguborycoed (deaf & dumb)
Elizabeth wife 63 b. Llanfihangel
Elizabeth J Williams granddau 6 b. Merionethshire, Parish of Dolgelley
I can find Thomas & Elizabeth in 1881
Pentrebach RG11/5477 folio 7 pg 7
Thomas Jones head mar 44 shoemaker deaf & dumb
Elizabeth wife 55
Edwin R son 8
all born Cardiganshire
& Thomas in 1861 is unmarried and living with his mother RG9/4239 folio 5 pg 3, but I haven't found them in 1871 as yet to see if they have other children or if they are married by that stage. It could be that Elizabeth brought a daughter to the marriage who then was the mother of Elizabeth Jane.
:-\
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hi,
The first marriage was to John Jenkins in Nov 1903,in the congregational chapel, baker st ,aberystwith,the witness,s were Mary Evans and Ann Williams.at the time of marriage elizabeth was living at Pandy Furnace,Glandovey.no father on cert.
the second marriage was to David Watkin Williams in March 1918 both living at dovey cottage ,Borth.(Elizabeth was a widow and David was a widower) witnesses were, J J Roberts and G.M.Hughes. Fathers name on cert for elizabeth is Evan Williams(deceased)
Elizabeth was living at Dovey Cottage,Borth and that is where her mother died
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could she not have found witnesses with more unusual names for her first marriage? They're not a lot of help, are they? ::)
I've tried without success to find Pandy Furnace, Glandovey on the 1901 census in case a relative is there.
I can't see a death reg of a Priscilla old enough to be Elizabeth Jane's mother between 1935 & 1940.
Have you tried the registrars who now hold the Dolgellau registers ti see if they can trace a birth cert for Elizabeth Jane? You can specify mother's name if you try the local registrar.
http://www.gwynedd.gov.uk/gwy_doc.asp?cat=6726&doc=24310&language=1&p=1&c=1
:-\
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thank you osprey,i will try them tomorrow,i thought my english ancesters were hard to find ,but blimey the welsh ::) im just glad my s.i.l. is not banking on me.
thanks for all your help,much appretiated.
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Hope that's not a slur on my homeland! ;D
It's ususally easier if you can trace a family as a group, but as there's only Elizabeth Jane, it's difficult to go sideways. I had an idea overnight, though. What age does she give at her marriage? If under 21, she should have needed parental permission. I'd dismissed father Evan from the 2nd marriage as just a name to fill the gap, but possibly she didn't give a father to avoid the permission question. Or if she said she was 21, we're back where we started. Or Ann could be a relative.....
::)
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hi,no not a slur at all,but it sure is hard to find people what with all the funny names the places have;D.
the first age of elizabeth on the marriage cert was 20 ,and i have just realized that would make her birth date as 1883 and not 1885,but i have a pic of her gravestone and it says 1885,and her second marriage in 1918 she is 33 which brings it back to 1885 d o b.i also dismissed evan as the father.
just been talking to my s,i,l, and she recalls her mum saying priscilla had a grocers shop in london(but where abouts she dose not know)
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hmm, think I may have a possible, but I'm clutching at straws.
1891 census has a Sophia Priscilla Richards born Aberystwyth working as a cook in Dolgellau RG12/4642 folio 35 pg 4. Her death is registered
Sophia Priscilla Richards 73 sept qtr 1932 Aberystwyth vol 11b pg 69
Using the free search on the 1911 census, she shows up in St Marylebone in London.
Perhaps you could with the local registrars to see who registered her death & what address she died at?
http://www.ceredigion.gov.uk/index.cfm?articleid=11778
:-\
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hello osprey and tac
hope you don't mind me jumping in but could Pandy Furnace Glan dyfi be the following place
http://www.everythingaberystwyth.co.uk/dyfi-furnace/
it states that the original smelting furnace became a saw mill and "pandy" means mill or saw mill in welsh; hope this may help.
Nesta
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thanks, that does help. It's actually not so far from where her grandparents were in 1891. Think I might leave working out which enumeration district it is until tomorrow, though.
;)
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That;s great
Nesta
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hi,that is interesting about sophia priscilla richards,i will drop Ceredigion a line,
Also found that this Sophia is buried at Mynwent y Garn,Bow street, the same place as elizabeth is buried.
Thank you Nestagi for the info on pandy,wonder if she worked there,or actually lived there.
thank you one and all for your help.
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hi,on Ancestry in the national probate calender there is a sophia priscilla richards,now im wondering if they give the actual place of death or just the district,any one know.
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a BIG THANK YOU TO BREVITAS ,yes osprey you was right ,thanks to Brevitas who gave the info on sophia priscilla richards,she is our lady.Oh boy what a lucky find by all.i must say ROOTSCHAT AND ITS MEMBER ARE THE BEST.
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so glad that worked out! ;D
Tracing Sophia might be a bit of a struggle, her age varies - 29 in 1891 so born c. 1862, birth c. 1866 in a later census, death reg gives birth year of 1859. I had a possible for her in 1871 aged 9 RG10/5565 folio 34 pg 11 with mother Elizabeth. I found a possible marriage for Elizabeth Richards & Thomas Jones in dec qtr 1881, all going nicely I thought and then I spotted that Elizabeth still a widow in 1891. So, perhaps the Elizabeth marrried to Thomas Jones was the mother of Elizabeth Jane's father, rather than Sophia Priscilla.
::)
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hi,just checked sophia on freeb.m.d. and she was 73 when she died so that would make her birth 1859,but as you say so many different d.o.b on the censuses it going to be tricky tracking her down.
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Hi again
This is the closest that I can find in 1871:
1871
RG10/5564/5/4 and 6/5
Lluestnewydd,Tyrymynach
Isaac Richards, head, 50, Iron and lead ore dresser, b. Llanbadarnfawr
Sophia Richards, wife, 43, b. do
Isaac Richards, son, 17, lead miner, b. do
Josiah Richards, son, 16, lead ore dresser, b. do
Sophia Richards, daughter, 13, do, b. Llanfihangel Geneur Glyn
Eleanor W Richards, daughter, 11, b. do
Evan M Richards, son, 5, b. do
I've not followed this family through.
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hi,brevitas,any chance you check this out if you have the 1871 census,
sophia richards born 1858,in cardigan
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Hi tac
The one given in 1871 is the only one born circa 1858-9 in Cardiganshire. Llanfihangel Geneur Glyn is just north of Aber - inland from Borth.
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hi,gnu
on free b.m.d sophia is down as being 73 at death, so that would make her birth 1859,so i thought may be this is her
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Hi tac
As stated, the Sophia I gave in Reply #29 is the only one born around that time and living in the area. As she is 13 (and 3 in 1861) she looks as if she was born in 1857/58. I've checked the BMDs and this entry looks interesting:
June q 1857, Aberystwyth vol 11b p 69
Not found anything later in that area.
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thank you ,i think sophia was born @1859,as i would go by the free b.m.d as the censuses do give different dates of birth.
once again, thanks for your help
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In case the 1871 is the correct family:
In 1851:
Tanllidart, Elerch
Isaac Richards, 30, miner
Sophia Richards, 22
Both born Llanbadarnfawr
HO107/2486/9/10
In 1861:
Lleustnewydd, Tyrymynach
Isaac Richards, 40, lead miner, ore dresser and farmer of 40 acres
Sophia Richards, wife, 33, miner's wife
Elizabeth Anne Ricahrds, daughter, 9
Isaac Richards, son, 7
Josiah Richards, son, 6,
Sophia Richards, daughter, 3, b. Llanfihangel geneur glyn
Elinor Winifred Richards, daughter, 1, b. do
All but Sophia and Elinor b. llanbadarnfawr
RG9/4197/9/12
In 1881 :
Penybontchydybeddau (?), Trefeirig
Isaac Richards, 60, formerly lead ore dresser.
Sophia Richards, wife, 53, miner's wife
Josiah Richards, son, 26, lead miner
Evan M Richards, son, 15, lead ore dresser
All b. Llanbadarnfawr
RG11/5449/103/8
Marriage:
Dec q, 1847, Aberystwyth vol 27 p 36
Isaac Richards and Sophia Morgans on the same page
gnu
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Just to add that ages given at death are not always correct. It depends on whether the person giving the information knew the dead person's actual age. As Sophia's age did vary through the years, I'd not take the death age as gospel.
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Hi
A*** has an 1861 birth of a Sophia Richards in the April, May, June quarter in Aberystwyth.
There is also an 1888 death of a Sophia Richards born in 1858 again in Aberystwyth.
Where is she in 1901 - the only possible I can see is
Piece: 5184
Folio: 73
Page: 10
Registration District: Rhayader
Civil Parish: St Harmon
Municipal Borough:
Address: Green Villa, St Harmon
County: Radnorshire
JONES, Jane Wife Married F 44 1857 Aberystwith, Cardiganshire
RICHARDS, Sophia Aunt Single F 42 1859 Aberystwith, Cardiganshire
Together with two boarders.
Nesta
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Hi Nesta
I can't find that Sophia b. 1861 on the 1871 census so far - have you had any luck?
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hi,thanks all of you with the help you are giving me,yes i understand about the different ages given and mistakes are made,so i will have to have another look at all the other possibiltys.
just a though,is there any way i can get elizabeths birth cert with just sophia,s maiden name if i take it that elizabeth was born in penaenpool,any one know what district that would come under
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Penmaenpool is Dolgellau. I'm wondering if a request for a look up for a baptism might bring something.
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thank brevitas ,i will put a request in on the Dolgellau board
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Hi Brevitas
No not yet - I've tried both sites .....very frustrating; there is a possible in 1881 as a servant with the watkin family in Marine Terrace, Aberystwyth.
Willcontinue searching later ............silly thought do you think she just started calling herself Priscilla at some stage - I will look later
Nesta
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Hi Nesta
Saw the Watkins one RG11/5445/30/56 but got interupted by phone call (in the middle of house selling ::) :-X ) .
She might have added Priscilla when she went to London or when in service - but why/ under what circumstances did she go? The problem is that she could have changed both her names :-\
I've also found this, so throwing it into the pot while I have some peace: An interesting probate entry for an Isaac Richards who died 27 Sept 1886, Cwmsymlog Post Office, Trefeirig. Proved by a William Jones of Great Darren Mine, one of the executors.
Aged 66 from the BMD - Dec q 1866, Aberystwyth 11b 49
At the moment, I don't see the post office listed on the 1881 census
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hi,just spoke to my s.i.l. and she is well pleased about finding her great grandmother,she also has a postcard that came from her grandmothers house
its from two sisters and the they wrote to thier mother and i quote,saw aunt cilla at the station on her way way to london(unquote)the mother and fathers name of these children were william and hannah richards,now could this william be a brother to sophia,i have found this family and he was born in 1863 in eglwysfach.
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Another thought,if the last name of the mother of elizabeth was richards where did elizabeth get the surname williams from.
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Hi
I think the Isaac Richards in the Probate Register is the one from the 1871 census entry earlier; by 1881 he is in Trefeirig with his wife, Josiah age 26 and Evan M age 15.
Oh dear - too many Richards'
Got to go- back later
Nesta
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Hi Tac
Can you check Elizabeth's first marriage on the BMDs. She definitely married a Jenkins, as that is the surname she used when she married for the second time, but there's something puzzling me about his first name. Also, was her name definitely Williams on this first marriage cert?
hi,
The first marriage was to John Jenkins in Nov 1903,in the congregational chapel, baker st ,aberystwith,the witness,s were Mary Evans and Ann Williams.at the time of marriage elizabeth was living at Pandy Furnace,Glandovey.no father on cert.
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Ok - found it. She's down as Lizzie J - search didn't pick it up although I checked alternatives!
Dec q 1903, Aberystwyth, 11b 130
Hi Nesta
Hi
I think the Isaac Richards in the Probate Register is the one from the 1871 census entry earlier; by 1881 he is in Trefeirig with his wife, Josiah age 26 and Evan M age 15.
Nesta
Yes - that's why I mentioned it- see my reply #35 ;D
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Think I've found her as Sophiah Prisila Richard, 13, with a brother William on the 1871 - mother down as Elizabeth Richard
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/V51N-YFL
Good old Familysearch :D
(Ref is RG10/5601/9/9)
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Hi Tac
Can you check Elizabeth's first marriage on the BMDs. She definitely married a Jenkins, as that is the surname she used when she married for the second time, but there's something puzzling me about his first name. Also, was her name definitely Williams on this first marriage cert?
yes just checked b.m.d. she married john richard jenkins the first time and she is down as lizzie jane williams,also on one of elizabeths sons birth cert by her second marriage she has williams as her maiden name
yes
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Think I've found her as Sophiah Prisila Richard, 13, with a brother William on the 1871 - mother down as Elizabeth Richard
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/V51N-YFL
Good old Familysearch :D
oh well done,do you think this sophiah could be the sister to the william i wrote about
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Think I've found her as Sophiah Prisila Richard, 13, with a brother William on the 1871 - mother down as Elizabeth Richard
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/V51N-YFL
Good old Familysearch :D
oh well done,do you think this sophiah could be the sister to the william i wrote about
It looks very much like it, tac :D
I'll transcribe the entry for you as the family search link doesn't give all the details. She also had a sister Lidia
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Here's the 1871 entry:
Furnace, Sguborycoed
Elizabeth Richard, unm, 58, works with farmers, b. Llanfihangelgenauglin (as written!)
Sophiah Prisila Richard, daur, 13, b. Aberystwith (do)
William Richard, son, 10, b. Talybont
Lidia Harriet Richard, daur, 8, b. do
PS - could this Elizabeth be the Elizabeth, wife of Thomas Jones, that osprey found on the 1891
Pentrebach, Ysgubor y Coed, Cards RG12/4586 folio 4 pg 1
Thomas Jones head 53 labourer b. Sguborycoed (deaf & dumb)
Elizabeth wife 63 b. Llanfihangel
Elizabeth J Williams granddau 6 b. Merionethshire, Parish of Dolgelley
Age is a 10 years out but census ages are odd!
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hi,thank you,i was wondering if this is the elizabeth that married thomas jones
and we all know how the ages get changed or elizabeth could have lied and took 10 off ;)but its worth keeping in mind.crumbs just realized that elizabeth was unmarried ;D
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Thats brilliant no wonder she war hard too find This is really interesting is for 1881 and 1901 unfortunately on my phone till later (as you can possibly tell )
Nesta
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Got home and down some trawling :
No wonder we couldn't find them - A**** version .....
Elizabeth Richard 58
Sophiak Rusile Richard 13
William Richard 10
Lidia Harriet Richard 8
Have tried to find the two younger children in 1881 and forwards but with not much success.
Nesta
In 1881 Osprey's find at the same address
Thomas Jones 44 - shoemaker
Elizabeth Jones 55
Edwin R. Jones 8
and Thomas and Elizabeth are still there in 1901 still noted as a shoemaker
1861 possibility 4200/58/10 in Trefeirig
Elizabeth Richards 49
Richard Richards 21
Sophia Richards 9 Looking at the original image and comparing with the other 9;s it doesn;t
look quite the same - possible a misstranscription ?
Here's Thomas in 1871 he's a basketmaker at Ysguborycoed b. sguborycoed
William Andrew 24
Jane Andrew 24
Mary Anne Andrew 3
John Andrew 1
Thomas Jones 35
and in 1861 at Furnace, Ysguborycoed an almsman with his mother Mary aged 70 an almswoman. Marked as deaf but not dumb.
Elizabeth Richards married Thomas Jones in the last quarter of 1871 in the Machynlleth Reg district.
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good find with that 1871 census, Brevitas. She aged well - she was 29 in 1891!
1861 you would think that the family would be in Talybont as that the birth place of 10 year old William on the 1871. There are pieces missing from the 1861, though.
I'm beginning to think that Elizabeth Jane's father was a Williams and that's why she used that surname. It could be that he registered the birth which would allow him to be on the birth cert.
:-\
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Apologies if this is a repeat of one of the options,but isn't the best age fit for Elizabeth/Sophia at
RG10 5565 34 11
Regards
Roger
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It might have been, Roger, had we not found a Sophia Priscilla with a brother William - see my Replies # 49 and #53. The address also ties in with Thomas and Elizabeth Jones on the 1881 (see nesta's Reply #56), who then have granddaughter Elizabeth Jane Williams living with them on the 1891.
Osprey - I had a look for a suitable Evan Williams (on Elizabeth J's second wedding cert) but so far nothing too promising.
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Good morning all
Still looking for a decent match in 1861 - have found a couple of good possibles going forward in the census for Wm Richards born 1860 Talybont - but nothing 1861 yet. Struggling with Lydia / Harriet moving forward.
can't do much today as i'm working.
Nesta
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afternoon all,well this is going to throw a spanner in the works >:(spoke to my s.i.l. and she has had another look at her postcards and their is one to mr w.j. richards and it starts,Dear brother and ends with sue(so it looks like william had a sister called sue or susanah).this was sent 1905
i have asked my s.i.l. to let me have a look at these postcards to see if any thing else comes to light,will keep you all informed if i find any thing.
thank you all for the help you have given me so very much apretiated
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Hi tac :)
Could you ask sil if she has the generations correct as, on the 1901 - RG13/5154/47/2, I see that William (brother of Sophia) has a daughter Susannah S Richards, aged 4 and a son William J Richards, aged 1. Could the postcard be to this W J Richards from his sister Susannah (Sue)?
Added - noticed the 1905 insert - is this correct?
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hi brevitas, will phone her now
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hi,just phoned and she said it say Mr w.j. richards and the date is 1912 and not 1905,also she has another postcard addressed to Mr w.j.richards 1906
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The reason I ask is that none of the censuses that I've looked at have the elder William listed as William J, whereas the son is listed as William J(ohn) in both cases (from 1911 free index). Also, on the free index, Susannah S(ophia) is away from home.
In 1906, young William J would be 7-8 - maybe he was M(aste)r J W Richards. Formal titles were usually used in letters, etc. in those days (even in the 1950s, when I was a lass, I can remember writing to a cousin as Master ................ )
Maybe something in the messages on the postcards might help to identify the sender and the receiver.
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Have tried to find more info on the marriage that Nesta found last evening:
Elizabeth Richards married Thomas Jones in the last quarter of 1871 in the Machynlleth Reg district.
However, it looks as if it might have been non-C of E so the only way of finding out who Elizabeth's father was is to order the cert -
The full GRO ref is Dec q, 1871, Machynlleth, vol 11b 355
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Still can't see anything suitable in 1861 - but going through the later census' it looks like we have two William Richards born in Talybont in 1860 !
Also I have a feeling that Elizabeth was a widow rather than unmarried;
ah well back to work. See you later !
Nesta
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Hi Nesta
Later censuses (and tac) suggest that William was born circa 1863-4. Also, the 1871, has Elizabeth as definiteley 'unm' - unmarried - see attached
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hi,yes i will order that marriage cert,
The william of the postcards was born in eglwysfach in 1863,so perhaps he wasnt the brother of sophia,but i couldnt understand why these cards were at my s.i.l grandmas house if there wasnt a connection to her and sophia,also williams wife hannah has a maiden name of jones and she was born in cemmaes;D.
what i find odd is that sophia was only a domestic and could not have earned much,so where did she get the monies from to open up a shop.
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hello just to say I haven;t been around this evening - had a nice meal with family.....will look some more tomorrow
Nesta
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morning all,going to order the wedding cert today but do you think it might be worth ordering sophia,s death cert to find out where she was born.
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Hello tac
The death cert won't show where she was born. We know the date of death, the place of death and her age. Given that Elizabeth Jane was granted probate, it is also likely that she was the informant, so the only knew thing on it would be the cause of death.
It might be worth getting William and Hannah's marriage cert as well, though.
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morning Brevitas,yes i thought of getting william and hannahs wedding cert but i cant find a marriage as yet
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Been having a look around~
Given on the 1901 their elder children were born in the Ystradyfodwg area, the most likely marriage is this one:
Sep q, 1889, Merthyr Tydfil, vol11a 832
William Richards and Hannah Owen on the same page.
As a check, you might have to get one of the children's birth certs first to get hannah's maiden surname:
Susannah Sophia Richards, Sep q 1896, Aberystwyth vol 11b page 51
I'll see if I can find a Hannah Owen b. Cemmaes on the earlier censuses so bear with me.
Added - the Genes Reunited 1911 free index has Hannah born Aberangell, Merioneth - a bit further to the north east from Cemmaes ::)
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1891 for William
29 Rhys St, Home Penrhys, Ystradyfodwg RG12/4428 folio 12 pg 21
William Richards head mar 29 collier b. Aberteifi
Hannah wife 26 b. Drefaldwyn Mont
Elizabeth dau 9 months b. Glamorganshire
Ann Morgans servant 24 b. Heislonydd Merion
all Welsh speaking
It looks like someone crossed out the enumerator's attempts at the county names in Welsh and put Mont & Merion
BMds for Ystradyfodwg would have been registered at Pontypridd, so
William Richards sept qtr 1890 Pontypridd vol 11a pg 819 with Hannah Ashton on the same page
or
William Thomas Richards march qtr 1891 vol 11a pg 794 with Hannah Lloyd on the same page - unlikely as the Thomas hasn't been seen before
The marriage is either in one the parish churches not covered by Glam index on the new Familysearch, or it's registry office or registrar attended , so non-conformist.
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Hi osprey
Just popped in!
I saw those entries a while ago and the Hannah Ashton marriage - nothing comes up for either Owen(s) or Ashton in the earlier censuses though. Nearest is an Annie Ashton daughter of a shoemaker in Machynlleth.
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I've just been looking for Hannah Ashton as well without success. Bother! Mind you, given this family's track record, perhaps they didn't marry.
::)
(No offence meant ;) )
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I see that Ystradyfodwg changed hands a few times - to 1863 it was in Merthyr, then 1863-1897 it was Pontypridd and then it was in Rhondda! Wish they didn't do that.
I've now been through all the Hannahs (no surname) b. either Montgomeryshire or Merionethshire circa 1865 on the 1871 and 1881 and none of them look promising. I think I'll give up on this Hannah search - things to do.
Added - forgot to say that the best match for William on the 1881 - RG11/5478/75/6 born Ysguborcoed - aged 19, a farm servant in the household of a William James, Towyn
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Don't know i this has been listed before but in Penybont, Clarach in 1901
William 38 b Eglwysfach
Hannah 36 b Cemmaes
Eliz. H 10 b Trealaw (just round the corner from some of my lot ! )
Jane 9 b Trealaw
Margaret E 7 b Towyn
Gwen M 5 b Towyn
Susannah S 4 b LLanbadarn Fawr
William J 1 b LLanbadarn Fawr
They are at the same address in 1911 apart from Susanah who is a servant with another Richards' family at Bow Street and William (snr) who is back at Rhys Street, Trealaw as a boarder.
Had a look for a Wm Richards marrying a Hannah Jones - noting what Tac had said earlier about Hannah being a Jones
also williams wife hannah has a maiden name of jones and she was born in cemmaes;D.
but the only one is in London and not the right date as they both state on the 1911 that they were married 21 years !
Ah well I think i'll try and find Lydia later on.
Nesta
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hi all, i know that hannahs maiden name is jones,it on A****** in some ones family tree
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hi,does any one live near mynwent y garn ,bow street to check this grave or is there a way i could check it,as it looks like there is an Ann Richards died 1885 in the same plot as sophia(2a 48)
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Will this do ?
48 Ann Richards 14/8/1885
Queen St, Aberystwyth
Sophia Richards 5/9/1932
http://www.capelygarn.org/uploads/beddau3.pdf
This looks interesting
http://www.capelygarn.org/cemetery.php
and then we have this http://www.llandre.org.uk/project2.php
Ann Richards aged 44 died July, Aug, Sept 1885.....Vol 11b page 42
Heading to the census
Nesta
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These look good - but what's the connection ??
1871 Census - Mill Street, Aberystwyth
Ann Richards 31 Head Unm Charwoman b. Aberystwyth
Jane Mason 14 Dau Unm General Servant b Geginau ??
Ann Maria Rowe 8 Dau Scholar b Aberystwyth
James L Richards 5 Son Scholar b Aberystwyth
1881 Census Queens Street 4 White Horse Court, Aberystwyth
Anne Richards 40 Head Unm Charwoman b Aberystwyth
James L. Richards 15 Son Unm Mariner b Aberystwyth
Nesta
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could it be a sister,would you agree that this ann is in the same plot as sophia or have i got it wrong. i see ann is unmarried,quite alot of unmarrieds we have found ;D
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Yes she is def in the same plot as I read it.....there is undoubtedly an unmarried theme going on here ::) She's not a sister to Sophia Priscilla (too old) but could be an Aunt.
Will trawl some more later to see if I can see her in earlier census'
Nesta
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hi nestagj,are you saying that the capel y garn and the llandre church yard are one of the same
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No sorry Tac
just thought it gave a bit of info about the surrounding area as Llanfihangelgennaurglyn seems to crop up quite regularly in this research.
N
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thanks,i thought you were saying this Ann was in both church yards :o
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hi all,just bought 60 credits from f.m.p any thing that i should have a look at.
had a look at a jane mason ,she is with grandparents with 2 other children (masons) so looks like wrong jane
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Tac, I wouldn't take it as gospel that Hannah's surname is Jones just because it's on someone's tree. What is their source for this info? If there is no souce, you could get a birth cert for one of the children to check.
On the rare occassions I've looked at other trees, I came across a tree that had my gggrandmother and ggrandparents dying in the US. No, they died in Cardiff and are in Cathays cemetery.
::)
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Good morning Tac
I should have said - I had a quick trawl for Jane Mason and found the one with grandparents too. Not had chance to do some more research - had a busy evening last night and am at work today so will search some more tonight (OH out for the evening! ) This family is intriguing me ???
I would agree with osprey about family trees - which one was it in ? I had a quick look and couldn't find it.
Talk to you later
Nesta
Nesta
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the source for hannahs maiden name is on the ebdon family tree,as you say wether it is right or not i dont know, unless you have a sub(not p.a.y.g.)you cant get to message them to verify it(i have tried >:( ).
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Although the following does not obviously fit with Sophia(1858) from the 1871,here are Elizabeth Richard(s) with "Talybont" references in the address
from earlier,for what they are worth(although she is down as unmarried in 1871,she may have ben married and widowed)
1861 RG09 4197 68 13
FindMyPast has her mis-transcribed by 20 years,and the original enumerators page has strange overlaps of surname,suggesting,perhaps,that Richard Davies is really Richard Richards.There is one born 3rd quarter 1851(hence not on 1851),and there is a death of William Davies 1st quarter 1851 that could fit as her husband in the data below)
1851 HO 107 2486 70 18
and,possibly
1841 HO 107 1372 15/21 11
Regards
Roger
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hi Tac - I have a membership - but can't seem to find her: what search criteria did you use ?
Roger - I'd seen that 1861 entry as well and the confusion over the names that is actually what made me wonder whether she had been married as in one of my previous posts.
Nesta
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hi,i have had a look at the 1861 census,but cant see a elizabeth on the page only a eliza,is that the one you mean?
cant find the census ref you gave on the 1841,im on f.m.p
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hi nestagj,under private family tree,s,i put in susannah sophia richards with a father william richards and a mother hannah
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Thanks
N
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Hi Tac
Have messaged the person on ancestry for you and I included a link to this forum....not having much success with finding some of the others further on in the records.
Will keep you posted.
Nesta
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Sorry for the delay in replying.Yes,it is Eliza in 1861,Elizabeth in 1851.If you can't find the 1841 from the reference,search for Ann Oliver,born 1766,Cardiganshire!
Regards
Roger
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Hi can't find an Ann Maria Rowe born 1863 Aberystwyth but have found an Ann Maria Richards born 1863 Aberystwyth ? I wondered in Anne Mason married a Richards......
Roger they look like distinct possibilities; have you had any luck with anyone else.
Nesta
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thank you roger,will have a look,also thank you nestagj,hope we get a reply.
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Hello - I'd like to join this conversation if I may.
My name is Jill and my Grandmother's name is (was) Susannah Sophia Richards. I have given access to my tree to Nestagj and anything you would like to know then please ask me and I will help if I can.
Jill
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I have now found the Elizabeth Richards of my earlier post,in 1871 and beyond.She is clearly not the one in question.
Regards
Roger
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Welcome to Roots Chat Jill; tac will be along shortly (usually is)- perhaps you could tell the others who the parents and sibling of William J Richards are.....
Tac - Jill has some questions about the postcards ?
Ah well Roger back to the drawing board.
Back to work now - talk to you later
Nesta
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found a ann maria richards born 1862 aberystwith om freebmd
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hi,jill,thank you for joining rootschat to help us out,we are trying to find out if there is a conection between william richards and sophia priscilla richards.
as you have read its could be a possible so my question to you is have you any other info on your william.have you got your william and hannah,s parents,and have you found them in the census,s.
what would you like to know about the postcards and i will have a look when i go to see my s.i.l next week
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Hello again
I don't have a Sophia Priscilla Richards on my tree - trouble is that all these surnames, Richards, Williams, Jones etc are so common. If the postcards are in fact from my Grandmother (Susie) to her brother William then I would love to see a copy - if that is at all possible?
Ok - from my family tree:
My grandmother had 6 siblings
Elizabeth H Richards b. 1891
Jane A Richards b. 1892
Margaret E Richards b. 1894
Gwen M Richards b. 1896
Dorothy M Richards b. 1897
William J Richards b.1900
Her parents were William Richards b 1863 in Penybont Clarach, Aberystwyth, Dyfed (he was a coal miner) and Hannah Jones b 1865 in Dulas Cottage, Cemmaes, Montgomeryshire.
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hi,re the postcards as soon as i have had a look i will get straight back to you.i do know there was one in welsh ;) to william junior.i think there are about 4 postcards about this family,but we are trying to figure out why they would be with photo,s concerning my s.i.ls grandmothers own family.
re william, do you know who is mother and father were,
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William Richards' (b.1863) father was John Richards (b.1817) Agricultural Labourer, married to a Mary (b.1833) surname unknown. John and Mary had at least five children that I've been able to find. John (b.1860), Emma (1862) William (1863) James Edward (1867) and David (1870)
The 1911 census shows that my grandmother went to work on her uncle John's farm at the age of 14 - that's the John (1860) whose wife's name was also Mary, then sometime after that she went to London and married my grandfather. They lived in Tulse Hill so if the postcards have a postmark on them I'd be very interested to know if they were sent from somewhere near to the Dulwich area.
If there is anyway you could scan the postcards I could give you my email address to send the copies to - how fantastic if it turned out to be my gran's postcards, sent to her brother - but that's really too much to hope for I think.
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hi,sorry cant scan them for some unknown reason my scanner does not work ,but i could take a pic of them and download to my pc then send them to you(if it works) i will see what they come out like first,if not i will find some other way of getting them to you.
thank you for the info on william,now im wondering if sophia is connected to hannah and not william.
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Hmm this is interesting ............do we have the right William Richards; but we know that our William had a daughter called Susanna and a son called W J and they saw Aunt Cilla off to London ...........and then Susannah went to London too - that's another connection................
Luchtime !
Back later
Nesta
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Hi again and welcome to jacey :)
Just a thought - could the 'aunty' have been used to refer to just and older relative rather than the strict definition of the sibling of a parent. I know that I called my parents' cousins, who were much older than me, aunty and uncle rather than by first names (not respectful in those days) or Mrs/Mr (too formal for a relative).
William and Sophia might have been cousins, for example.
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hi brevitas,i always call my older cousin aunty even to this day,so are you saying that this sophia is a cousin to the richards children or another thought is she a cousin to either william or hannah.blimey there,s more questions than answers.
sorry didnt read your last sentence.
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It's getting a right old web, tac ;D
I hope that the Thomas Jones/Elizabeth Richards marriage cert might help. It's also worth tracing William's father, John Richards (b. 1817) to see if there are any clues.
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been trying to find john richards in the census,s but no luck as there are quite a few of them,also tried emma with father and mothers name and there are quite a few of them too :).
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Tac - may I view your tree so that I can see whether we have any Richards/Jones in common please. How do I find your tree on Ancestry?
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Tac - in 1871
Penparcau, Aberystwyth
RG10/5562/73/38
John Richards, 54, Ag lab, b. Llanfihangel C
Mary, wife, 38, b. Llanilar
Emma, d, 9
William, s, 7
James Edward, s, 4
David, s, 1
Children b. Aberystwyth
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jacycey,my s.i.l hasnt got a tree as yet,she has no pc,so i said i would help
although im not very good at it :( her grandmother Elizabeth williams had 3 children by her first marriage(jenkins)and2 children by her 2nd marriage she lived in borth in 1903 and stayed there till she died in 1967
thank you brevitas,are you an old hand at this??
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i am away for the weekend,will be back sunday eve,then i will have another look to see what i can find,thank you all for your help so far.
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morning all.no marriage cert yet,hopefully tomorrow
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Looking forward to seeing the info - not had a chance to look at anything during the weekend - visitors!
Nesta
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Morning - which marriage certificate have you sent for Tac? Also, I meant to ask you what address the postcards in question were sent to - would it be possible for you to give me that address please?
By the way, I have the birth certificate of Susannah Sophia Richards and the marriage certificate of William Richards and Hannah Jones and will be happy to send you a copy if you give me your email address.
This is the cottage where Hannah Jones was born, if you're interested - now holiday cottages:
http://www.dulascottages.co.uk/
I have to go out now but will check this page again later for any replies.
Jill
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hii,nesta,untill the cert arrives i dont know what else we can look for.
hi jaycey,i think the address was just pent y bont clarach.
the marriage cert is for Elizabeth richards and thomas jones.
also interesting about the cottage,only one bedroom,wonder if it was always like that, or is all the buildings
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Hi Tac
My plan was to see how Jill's info fit into the information we already had ! The address on the postcards confirms the 1901 and 1911 census'.
Hi Jill - any chance you being able to post the info off the certificates.
Thanks
Nesta
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Hi Nesta
I'm not sure that the info from Jill's certs will give us any more info than that which Jill has already given - i.e. Susannah's parents were William Richards and hannah nee Jones and William's father was John Richards and Mary - see my Reply# 117.
Tac - in 1871
Penparcau, Aberystwyth
RG10/5562/73/38
John Richards, 54, Ag lab, b. Llanfihangel C
Mary, wife, 38, b. Llanilar
Emma, d, 9
William, s, 7
James Edward, s, 4
David, s, 1
Children b. Aberystwyth
What we need to do is to try and link Sophia Priscilla (and her mother, Elizabeth) to this family. When tac gets the Elizabeth Richards/Thomas Jones cert, we might be able to go further.
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Hi brevitas
that's what I meant really sorry didn't phrase it well....as regards the certificates I was thinking about the addresses..........especially the one between William and Harriet as we have been struggling to find a Harriet Jones of the right period.
Jill - I was wondering where you got the info about Dulas Cottage ? family info ?
Thanks
Nesta
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hi jaycey,how far back have you got on hannahs side of the family
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Hi
A*** has an 1861 birth of a Sophia Richards in the April, May, June quarter in Aberystwyth.
There is also an 1888 death of a Sophia Richards born in 1858 again in Aberystwyth.
Where is she in 1901 - the only possible I can see is
Piece: 5184
Folio: 73
Page: 10
Registration District: Rhayader
Civil Parish: St Harmon
Municipal Borough:
Address: Green Villa, St Harmon
County: Radnorshire
JONES, Jane Wife Married F 44 1857 Aberystwith, Cardiganshire
RICHARDS, Sophia Aunt Single F 42 1859 Aberystwith, Cardiganshire
Together with two boarders.
Nesta
hi nesta ,can you tell me the names of the boarders here please
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Hi Tac - here they are........
Hugh G Owen 26 Railway Clerk b Bala Merionethshire
William G Jones 21 Railway Porter b Newtown, Monts
N
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thanks nesta,just thought i would see if i can find this jane in the 1891 census to see if she has a husband
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Hi
Ok - I'll try and answer some of the questions posted since I looked this morning:
The information on the certificates - first the marriage between William Richards and Hannah Jones.
Date 9/7/1887
Fathers - John Richards (deceased) labourer
and Evan Jones also deceased, farmer
Witnesses were William Davies and John Davies
Interestingly, both William and Hannah's ages are given as 27 but I've found that very often they seemed to guess at their ages and can vary even on the Census.
On my grandmother's birth certificate:
Susannah Sophia
Born 18/7/1896
Place Penybont
Father - William Richards
Mother - Hannah Jones
Father's occupation now down as Slate Enameller
Address Penybont
Dulas Cottage came from family information and I actually went to see it for myself and it's a tiny place with only half a dozen cottages, nearest town is Machynlleth
On Hannah's side of the family I've got her father down as Evan Jones and mother's name was Hannah (Unknown). They are in the 1861 and 1871 Census - their children showing as Mary, Thomas, David and Hannah.
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Reference for Susanah Sophia's family
1901 5154 47 2
Regards
Roger
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thank you jaycey and despair
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hi,jaycey,got the postcards,had quick look and there are none that mention susanah.will have a proper look tomorrow.
there are a couple in welsh,i will have a proper look tomorrow,but i can tell you that lizzie(susanahs)oldest sister talks about a aunty Mary Birmingham(sp)also an aunt Ann Morgans.also i have my s.i.l.grandmothers diary and in it she has wrote that Aunty cilla died 5 sept 1932,now i dont know what to make of that,but as i say will look more closely tomorrow.
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Hello all
thanks for the info - will do some more tomorrow.
tac- I'm welsh speaking - do you want me to try to translate the welsh one's ?
nesta
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hi nesta,yes i would like you to have a go at translating it,i will try to get my scanner to work this morning, if not i will try to write what is on the postcard.
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Morning all,
just a few quick questions:
Are all the postcards from the same person?
What is that person's name?
What is the postmark - where have they been sent from?
I don't know where I got the idea from but I thought someone had mentioned the name Sue that they might have originated from my nan, Susannah - she was affectionately called Susie.
Thanks, Jill
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hi,jaycey,the postcards are from elizabeth hannah richards to her mother,general chit chat,i dont know if you want me to write the one from sue to william on here or shall i message you with it,thats if others on here are not interested.
elizabeth hannah was at dovey bank ,Machyelleth? (sp)at the time
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Hi Tac
I'd love to know what this Sue said to her brother William and where the postmark says it was sent from and the exact address it was sent to. I don't mind how you send it (I'm sure the others won't mind you posting it here or you can send me a pm if you'd rather).
Thanks for taking the time.
Jill
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wrote on the post card..
to Mr w,j,Richards address Pen y bont,clarach,nr aberystwyth.
nov 1912,
Dear Brother,how are you getting on there,in the pink i suppose,shall come home monday night but shall come to town with the 25 to 9 in the morning.with fondest love,your old chum.sue
come to meet that train will(i think this a name) i shall go to gwen in the morning.
on the post mark all i can make out is ?d or o then meur??
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Wow! Thanks for that Tac.
So far so good as far as I'm concerned. Susannah had a sister called Gwen so the possibility of this being from my Nan is still there.
I'm surprised that the address doesn't give a house number or name but then I guess the postman must know everyone in the little village by name!
Thanks again - got to go out now will check for any other info later.
Jill
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heres another one,
to Mr w j richards,pen y bont clarach.
Dear Brother,just a p c to show that i have not forgotton you,i long to see you all,this from your old chum sue.
cant see a date on this one though or make out where it was posted from
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no cert today, any one know how long they take, i ordered it of off the g r o.last wed
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Hi Tac - let me have the info off the welsh one's and I will see what I can do.
I will pm you my email address for y ou to send it.
Its quite interesting to note (I've noticed this with my family - all first language welsh speakers) that they write any correspondence in welsh.
At work atm so can't write much today.
Nesta
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you should have been given a despatch date when you ordered. A week would be about the average at a non-busy time.There have been times during the early days of WDYTYA that certs were taking a month or more.
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hi,osprey,just checked my order form,should have been here today,oh well i will justhave to patient a little longer
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Hi Tac - let me have the info off the welsh one's and I will see what I can do.
I will pm you my email address for y ou to send it.
Its quite interesting to note (I've noticed this with my family - all first language welsh speakers) that they write any correspondence in welsh.
At work atm so can't write much today.
Nesta
hi nesta,if i can make out any of the welsh writing :( i will definately send it to you,i will try one now
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Given the 1911 address(Aberangell) and the 1901 address(Cemmaes-near Aberangell) couldn't this be Hannah Jones:-
1871 5688 6 4
and if so,
1861 4317 6 5 (to show previous family)
She is not there in 1881.
Regards
Roger
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Hi tax can you scan them or take a pic with your phone ??
N
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i will try taking a pic and see how it goes
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Pic is great and I can translate - bear with me !
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Hi
The welsh reads
'air ich hysbysu fod merch gan Margaret (o de) ar dydd iau. Y mae y dau yn iawn.
Anfonwch air yn fuan
Anni Morgan
It translates to- this is not a literal translation but its in context.
a note to let you know that margaret (from South) gave birth to a daughter on thursday. They are both well. Send word soon.
Anni Morgan
I think it is dated the 21 May 1905. TCM Pentre (?) will look this up.
Didn't we have a Morgan somewhere else ?
Nesta
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There is an Ann Morgans with William and Hannah at
1891 4428 12 21 (Ystradyfodwg)
Regards
Roger
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Thanks Roger - thought so but didn;t have time to go and check :)
Tac - was that the only welsh one ?
Nesta
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25,whitefield st lonpentre glam ,
mrs a morgans was here in 1906
then this one .ann e morgans 34,parry street ton pentre ystrad,no date though
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Thanks Roger - thought so but didn;t have time to go and check :)
Tac - was that the only welsh one ?
Nesta
no but the pics do not come out,i will keep trying though
sent last two,had my camera on the wrong setting ;D
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hi,roger,just looked at the census for 1891,does it say that Ann Morgans is a servant,if so would she be a servant to the richards or a servant that lives with them,also can you read what it says in colomn 16
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Got the other two but not as clear so I think I will try to print them out. Looks like there is some connection. Those addresses you have put in - the postmark on the first says TCM Pentre so that tallies.
What are the pictures - does it say on the back.
Will be back later.
N
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ones a birthday greeting pic,the other has a colliery on it,wattstown
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Yes it does say servant and single,though this is a "dittoed" single,perhaps to be treated with caution.I think column 16 says "Glam",presumably for Glamorgan as part of the attempt to qualify the addreses.I'm not sure what,if anything,the servant status implies,attached to the family or just locally employed.
However,the following seems more than a coincidence:-
The Hannah Jones(mother) identified in my previous post(1871 Aberangell) may well be Hannah Morgans married to John Jones 1859(checking reference)
In 1891 she is widowed,living in Towyn,where Hannah Richards(nee Jones) gives birth to two chidren around this time.
Her son John is with her and he is an enameller at this time,the same as William Richard is given in 1901.
Refefences for Hannah(mother) and John
1881 5478 137 1
1891 4587 86 22
Regards
Roger
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thanks roger,i hope jaycey looks in as she might be able to confirm this info.
just look back on this thread and jaycey has the father of hannah down as evan jones
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jaycey, do you know if margaret(susanahs sister)married a rees morris and lived in london
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hi,does any one live near mynwent y garn ,bow street to check this grave or is there a way i could check it,as it looks like there is an Ann Richards died 1885 in the same plot as sophia(2a 48)
last week i emailed the cemetary and had a lovely email back this morning with pictures of the grave. Ann richards fathers name is richard richards talybont,there is nothing on the gravestone saying what relation ann is to sophia ,and the lady who emailed me suggested looking at the census,s
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Good morning Tac
Unfortuntely one of the photos is too out of focus but here is the other one; the writing is very hard to decipher but I think it says:
To Wille J Richards
wel dearest i fachgen dyma yr hen faddam crismas wedi dweud i (wel) i. i mae dada yn cofio atat yn annwyl iawn to wille j.
I think this reads
" To Wille J Ricards well dearest boy the old madam crismas (someone's nickname I think) has told me to see her (?). Dear daddy sends his kindest regards to wille j."
Here they are ? -hope this works (!)
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and the other one
You know the one of wattstown colliery - if you google it then you will see that there was a mining disaster there in 1905..........which card has that pic on. I wonder if there is a connection.
The info on the gravestone is interesting - we may be able to go a bit further now. Do you want to post the pic - I will do it for you if you want.
Better get to work now - speak later
Nesta
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hi,yes it does say disaster on the wattstown card.that is the card that was to out of focus to read,so i have tried again and will send it to you.
re the gravestone,i have looked but yet again there are so many richard richards and ann richards(born 1837) its real hard to know who is who
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Hello
got it - looks better now. Such a shame there is no address on the gravestone !
I think its talking about the pit disaster - sorry its so unclear.
Dyma lin y pylle ond dim yn lin dda nid y pwll (? ) i ddwi dewis y llall ond bod y ddim yn mind in (?) ond ddim y llall (?) (hepeno) mind fel (?) (?).
mi gaf well llun na hun i chi os medru gael un.
" Here is a picture of the pits but it is not a good picture. It is not the pit (? ) I chose the other because it is not going but not the other (?) happens like. I will get a picture if I can.
I will ask one of the welsh speakers off the cymraeg forum to have a look to see if they can make more sense than I can.
Hi despair - yes the problem has been all along that we cannot get a decent match for Hannah Jones - we even know that they had been married 21 years in the 1911 census - confirmed by both as they are in different places on census night so they have completed them independently. I had discounted them because of the birthplace as Jaycey seems sure of the cemmaes birth. I will have more time later - I think I am going to draw a tree (!) of what we know and what we are unsure of ........
Nesta
Nesta
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Again,apologies if I am wrong,but the data from jaycey seems to imply to me
1861 4184 72 7
1871 5552 33 9
and an 1887 marriage in the Lampeter registration district as per the 1871 above.This Hannah Jones is given as born Llawenog(near Lampeter) on the 1871
and is not consistent with the birthplace of Hannah Richards on the later censuses.She is however the only Hannah Jones who marries a William Richards in the general area in the general time frame,which may be how it was arrived at?
jaycey-does the birth certificate for Susannah Sophia give the mother as Hannah Jones or Hannah,formerly Jones(or similar?)
Regards
Roger
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hi,roger,thank you,will have a look ,but jaycey is away for a couple of days,we will have to wait till she gets back to see .
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Given the comments re ages-"both are given as 27"(another inconsistency)- this could be the result of the Lampeter marriage:-
1891 4552 40 11
Regards
Roger
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Hello
got it - looks better now. Such a shame there is no address on the gravestone !
I think its talking about the pit disaster - sorry its so unclear.
Dyma lin y pylle ond dim yn lin dda nid y pwll (? ) i ddwi dewis y llall ond bod y ddim yn mind in (?) ond ddim y llall (?) (hepeno) mind fel (?) (?).
mi gaf well llun na hun i chi os medru gael un.
" Here is a picture of the pits but it is not a good picture. It is not the pit (? ) I chose the other because it is not going but not the other (?) happens like. I will get a picture if I can.
I will ask one of the welsh speakers off the cymraeg forum to have a look to see if they can make more sense than I can.
Hi despair - yes the problem has been all along that we cannot get a decent match for Hannah Jones - we even know that they had been married 21 years in the 1911 census - confirmed by both as they are in different places on census night so they have completed them independently. I had discounted them because of the birthplace as Jaycey seems sure of the cemmaes birth. I will have more time later - I think I am going to draw a tree (!) of what we know and what we are unsure of ........
Nesta
Nesta
hi,did you see the 2 words wrote on the front of the card,dont know if you can read them
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On one of the cards it says,from your true nephew John Jones and its addressed to mrs w richards.
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Yes saw the words - can't quite make it out it could "hon daniad" - which translates to this is the one fired ...............could they be pointing out the shaft where the explosion was; just googled it and there is an interesting note here including a list of the dead which include a couple of richards but I don;t think they are connected......
http://www.welshcoalmines.co.uk/GlamEast/WattstownNational.htm
Wattstown is in the ystradyfodwg area where William Richards went to from Aberystwyth - this card could be from an old neighbour showing them the pit.
Got to go
Back later
N
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Given the comments re ages-"both are given as 27"(another inconsistency)- this could be the result of the Lampeter marriage:-
1891 4552 40 11
Regards
Roger
hi roger,yes that is a possibilty given that elizabeth hannah(daughter)was born 1891,i wonder if jaycey has the wedding cert or birth cert for susanah
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I am going off the information in reply#131.I think Susanah's birth certificate came first and then there has been a search for a wedding of William Richards to Hannah Jones.As the only one vaguely fittting the bill,it has been assumed that this is the correct one.I am casting doubt on this because of age and location and suggesting there is a couple who fit the bill for this marriage still in the Lampeter area in 1891.
My further question as to whether it says "..formerly Jones.." relates to the common form of words used indicating that the couple are married.
Regards
Roger
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On my grandmother's birth certificate:
Susannah Sophia
Born 18/7/1896
Place Penybont
Father - William Richards
Mother - Hannah Jones
Father's occupation now down as Slate Enameller
Address Penybont
From Jill's post
N
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oops posted at the same time
N
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sorry should have looked back before i posted :-[, i thought all marriage certs had the wifes maiden name.
did jaycey put the marriage details on here do you know
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still no wedding cert,should have been here tues >:(
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Good morning Tac
sorry I've not been around - unwell for the last couple of days.
shame the marriage cert has not arrived yet.
Have some translations to put up when I have a minute.
speak later
N
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hi,nestagj,hope you are feeling better,bet it comes tomorrow when i am out for the day.thanks for translating the cards and put them up in your own time.
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Trying to look at some of the other people involved in case they provide clues.
Edwin R Jones from the 1881 census is Edwin Richard Jones and he also appears in Ystradyfodwg in 1901(RG13 5018 16 24).Although his birth appears here as Eglwysfach,he appears in Llantrisant(married) on the 1911, as born "Pandy Furnace"
Can you please tell me the details of John Jenkins from the first marriage certificate(age/address/father)?
Regards
Roger
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Again,apologies if I am wrong,but the data from jaycey seems to imply to me
1861 4184 72 7
1871 5552 33 9
and an 1887 marriage in the Lampeter registration district as per the 1871 above.This Hannah Jones is given as born Llawenog(near Lampeter) on the 1871
and is not consistent with the birthplace of Hannah Richards on the later censuses.She is however the only Hannah Jones who marries a William Richards in the general area in the general time frame,which may be how it was arrived at?
jaycey-does the birth certificate for Susannah Sophia give the mother as Hannah Jones or Hannah,formerly Jones(or similar?)
Regards
Roger
Hello everyone - I've been away for a few days and I'm only just trying to catch up with what's been going on. I'll try and answer any questions starting with the quote above from Roger.
The birth certificate for Susannah says 'Hannah Richards, formerly Jones'
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thanks roger,i hope jaycey looks in as she might be able to confirm this info.
just look back on this thread and jaycey has the father of hannah down as evan jones
I've got my nan's birth and marriage certificate and I know the information on these documents is correct but I'm beginning to doubt the marriage certificate I sent for regarding Hannah Jones (my great grandmother) - the reason I think it might be the wrong one is because it has an X for Hannah's signature but on the 1911 census Hannah has signed her name! So, it's quite possible that this is the wrong marriage certificate, coupled with the fact that on this both William and Hannah have put their ages down as 27 and also the place of birth for Hannah, which I know for sure to be Dulas Cottage, Ceinws, is shown as Maesgwilym, Cellan.
I kind of gave up on this side of my family because it got too difficult. It's only because your group contacted me recently that I've started to look at it again! It's a real puzzle and it would great if we could solve it together.
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jaycey, do you know if margaret(susanahs sister)married a rees morris and lived in london
No, I'm sorry but I really don't know who she married.
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well the cert arrived today, ;D
october 6 1871 in the parish church eglwys fach.
thomas jones-full age-batchelor-eglwys fach- thomas jones-labourer
elizabeth richards-full age-spinster-eglwus fach- richard richards-labourer
witness,s thomas jones
richard davies.
just a thought,richard richards was the name of ann richards father on the gravestone.wonder if its the same richard richards.
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Trying to look at some of the other people involved in case they provide clues.
Edwin R Jones from the 1881 census is Edwin Richard Jones and he also appears in Ystradyfodwg in 1901(RG13 5018 16 24).Although his birth appears here as Eglwysfach,he appears in Llantrisant(married) on the 1911, as born "Pandy Furnace"
Can you please tell me the details of John Jenkins from the first marriage certificate(age/address/father)?
Regards
Roger
hi roger, johns age is 22 farm labourer, living at llwynsfaborwen?,henllys father name evan jones ,deceased,i do know john was born widness lancs.
also elizabeth jane was living at pandy furnace at time of the marriage
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thanks roger,i hope jaycey looks in as she might be able to confirm this info.
just look back on this thread and jaycey has the father of hannah down as evan jones
I've got my nan's birth and marriage certificate and I know the information on these documents is correct but I'm beginning to doubt the marriage certificate I sent for regarding Hannah Jones (my great grandmother) - the reason I think it might be the wrong one is because it has an X for Hannah's signature but on the 1911 census Hannah has signed her name! So, it's quite possible that this is the wrong marriage certificate, coupled with the fact that on this both William and Hannah have put their ages down as 27 and also the place of birth for Hannah, which I know for sure to be Dulas Cottage, Ceinws, is shown as Maesgwilym, Cellan.
I kind of gave up on this side of my family because it got too difficult. It's only because your group contacted me recently that I've started to look at it again! It's a real puzzle and it would great if we could solve it together.
hi jacey,i know what you mean by difficult to find things out,wales must be the hardest place to look for relatives.
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jaycey-the address on the marriage certificate will be the residential address at time of marriage,not the brth address-however I am still not convinced it is the correct marriage.
tac-thanks for the info on John Jenkins,so he was the "head" listed in 1911 despite the occupational description mismatch.Not much to be gained there then.
What is the address given for Elizabeth Richards?Please confirm that it doesn't say deceased for Elizabeth's father.
I think it is worth pursuing a different line,for a while at least.Without trying to review the rationale for Thomas Jones wife Elizabeth to be nee Richards,surely given a granddaughter Williams as in the 1891,she could well be a Williams with a son(Evan?) from a previous marriage.
There is a late 1871 marriage of Thomas Jones to an Elizabeth Williams in Aberystwyth.The following is even more speculative, buit there is an Elizabeth Williams of the right age in the 1871 census(RG10 5562 49 27).She is a small shopkeeper with a dressmaker niece,and Thomas on the 1871 is described as a basket maker......
I haven't traced her back yet,but it seems worth pursuing unless I've got the logic wrong along the way(quite possible these days)
Regards
Roger
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Can' t find Maesygwylim in 1881,occupants in 1891(RG 12 4552 36 4) don't help,but not too far away(RG12 4552 40 11) are William and Hannah Richards,both born 1860,confirming,I think that the 1887 marriage in Lampeter is not "your" William and Hannah,who are in Ystradyfodwg in 1891.
Regards
Roger
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hi,roger,
elizabeth richards father was richard richards,a labourer(1871).and at the time of marriage to thomas jones she is at egwyls fach
and on elizabeth williams marriage cert to john jenkins,no name given for father.
on her second marriage to david williams her father is down as evan williams(deceased)but i have a feeling this a little white lie as david williams father had the same name.
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It seems to me that one option left re William and Hannah Richards(nee ?) is that Hannah Owen(s) in the 1889 marriage,is a widow nee Jones.She would,of course,still have to revert to her original/maiden name on the birth certificates from her second marriage("...formerly Jones.....")
I can' t find any reference other trhan the GRO to use with a local office,who might co-operate in telling you whether Hannah Owen(s) was a spinster or a widow.I don't think the GRO themselves would help in that respect.
Another speculative possible "coincidence".In 1911 there is a John Jones(from "Montgomeryshire"),of exactly the right age to be the brother of the Hannah Jones(Aberangell) previously identified,living in Wattstown,Ynishir,who has a son called John(Henry).Hannah would therefore be his Aunt-postcards?
Finally,the most wildly speculative of all,there is a disaster in Ynishir colliery in 1887,and among the dead is a David Owen aged 33(origins uknown to me).Could he be Hannah Jones first husband-there is a marriage in Aberystwyth district,2nd quarter 1886?
Regards
Roger
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morning roger,you have given plenty to think about,i wonder if jaycey knows where hannah and william are buried as my gravestone gave the fathers name of ann richards.
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It seems to me that one option left re William and Hannah Richards(nee ?) is that Hannah Owen(s) in the 1889 marriage,is a widow nee Jones.She would,of course,still have to revert to her original/maiden name on the birth certificates from her second marriage("...formerly Jones.....")
I can' t find any reference other trhan the GRO to use with a local office,who might co-operate in telling you whether Hannah Owen(s) was a spinster or a widow.I don't think the GRO themselves would help in that respect.
Hi Roger - have I missed something; where has the Hannah Owen(s) marriage come from - been mostly offline for a few days. Where did the marriage take place ? if its in Wales; it might be worth me ringing them to see ?
i wonder if jaycey knows where hannah and william are buried as my gravestone gave the fathers name of ann richards.
Hi Tac - thanks for your good wishes the other day, feel much better atm - do you have a date of death - there's no date of death on jaycey's family tree - having a look to see if I can see anything suitable for now. What was written on the gravestone - can you post the pic up - if not email me and I will put it on.
Nesta
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hi nestagj, never put a pic on here before but will try now.
nope didnt work so i have sent it to you
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this is the text the lady sent me.
I visited Garn cemetery and the following inscription can be seen on the grave of your great grandmother:
IN MEMORY OF
ANN RICHARDS
Queen St, Aberystwyth
daughter of Richard Richards
Talybont, Cardiganshire
Died August 14th 1885
aged 48
I have kept the faith
Hefyd am [Also of]
Sophia P. Richards
Hunodd Medi 5 1932 [Died September 5 1932]
yn 73 mlwydd oed [aged 73 years]
Byw i mi yw Crist a marw sydd elw [For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain.]
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Here is the picture
Off to look for Richard Richards now - I wonder if he is still alive in 1885 as the grave does not mention him as "Y diweddar" - the late Richard Richards which is usually how it is phrased when they are dead.
Its a really good picture Tac - much better than some of my grave pics (slight obsession with documenting family graves ! )
Nesta
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hi,nestagj,wasnt it kind of that lady to do this for me,
now im wondering if ann and sophia were sisters,also re elizabeth williams birth 1885,do you think she could have been registered as a richards, seeing as sophia was not married,after all surely elizabeth would know who her fathers was to put on the first marriage cert as she put evan williams on the second..
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Just found this family :
Richard Richard 25
Margaret Richard 25
Ann Richard 4
Richard Richard 2
Civil parish: Llanbadar Fawr
Hundred: Geneur Glynn
County/Island: Cardiganshire
and living next door we have
Gwen Richards 50
Isaac Richards 20
Elizabeth Richards 15
How old is our Elizabeth Richard again ? can't find the post ! I'm trying to move forward now.
N
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Found this family in 1871 ..................long shot I know !
Piece: 5567
Folio: 47
Page Number: 6
Household Members:
Name Age
David Williams 56
Elizabeth Williams 55 Wife
John Williams 9 Son
David Williams 7 Son
Elizabeth Williams 4 Dau
Richard Richard 60 H in law ?
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morning roger,you have given plenty to think about,i wonder if jaycey knows where hannah and william are buried as my gravestone gave the fathers name of ann richards.
Hello all - the answer to the above question is no I'm afraid I don't know where Hannah and William are buried.
I haven't had much time to do any research lately but hopefully I'll be back on track in a few days. I'm still following the thread and will answer any questions about this side of my family - if I can.
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I'm afraid it's"back to the drawing board" again on the marriage.Hannah Owen was a "possible" suggestion by brevitas earlier,based on "pairings on the same page".It looks very likely that the reverse pairings were the case.
The Hannah Ashton possibility can also be ruled out,I think,beause an appropriate pairing can be found in 1891.
Regards
Roger
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just before I head out - I'd like to add this to the mix ............I haven't done any work on it it just came out whilst looking for Richard Richards
Richard Richard
Age: 30
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1821
Relation: Son-in-law
Spouse's Name: Priscilla Richard
Gender: Male
Where born: Cardiganshire, Wales
Civil Parish or Township: St Woollos
Ecclesiastical parish: St Paul
Town: Newport
County/Island: Monmouthshire
Country: Wales
Registration district: Newport
Piece: 2452
Folio: 71
Page Number: 3
Household Members:
Priscilla Upham 80 b Somerset Annuitant
Maria Upham 17 b Bristol Pupil Teacher
Priscilla Richard 36 b Llanbadarn Dressmaker
Richard Richard 30 b Llanbadarn - can't make out the occ.
Priscilla E Richard 1 Mo b Newport
Nesta
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Just found this family :
Richard Richard 25
Margaret Richard 25
Ann Richard 4
Richard Richard 2
Civil parish: Llanbadar Fawr
Hundred: Geneur Glynn
County/Island: Cardiganshire
and living next door we have
Gwen Richards 50
Isaac Richards 20
Elizabeth Richards 15
How old is our Elizabeth Richard again ? can't find the post ! I'm trying to move forward now.
N
, elizabeth that married thomas was born 1824
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I'm afraid it's"back to the drawing board" again on the marriage.Hannah Owen was a "possible" suggestion by brevitas earlier,based on "pairings on the same page".It looks very likely that the reverse pairings were the case.
The Hannah Ashton possibility can also be ruled out,I think,beause an appropriate pairing can be found in 1891.
Regards
Roger
hi roger,thanks for trying to help sort the richards out.
jaycey,is there any thing you can add to william and hannah or susanah,ie names,how many children did your nan sue have,as in my s.i.l nans diary there are a few babys mentioned when they were born.alas no last names only first.
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Hi Tac
All I can add is that my Nan (Susannah Sophia Richards) came to London (don't know when exactly but it was after 1911) and she got married in 1920 to my Grandfather (William James Ebdon) in Southwark. They had two children, Roy Kenneth James Ebdon (my father) and Roland William Ebdon - both are deceased so I can't ask them any questions!!!
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hi jaycey,thanks for that,no boys in the diary only girls,sorry if i have missed it but who were the witnesses on the marriage cert
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Morning,
The witnesses on my Nan's marriage certificate were M E Richards (her sister) and V Pickett. This proves that her sister Margaret Ellen Richards (b 1893 in Towyn, Merionethshire) was in London in 1920. I think that Hannah and William must have moved around Wales quite a bit because each one of their children seems to have been born in a different town.
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thanks jaycey,yes it could be that margaret followed susannah to london,i wonder if she did marry as she was @ 26 in 1920.
i see on A**** that there are others with the name susannah sophia richards in thier tree,are you in touch with them
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Hi again Tac
Yes, I have in the past been in contact with others who seem to have my grandmother in their tree - one of them is my sister Sharon (Carter family) and she lives in Australia now but she didn't bother following it up. Another (Owen family) have suggested that William Richards married a Jane Lloyd after Hannah - but I don't think that's my William Richards - and another (Hobbs family) seem to have connections to my father's side (Ebdon) but all of these are poorly sourced. I don't trust anything to be true unless I can prove it!
Your postcards really intrigue me and that's why I joined this group. Do you want access to my tree so you can see my sources, as Nestagj has? I can include you if you like?
Jill
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hi jaycey,i think this going to be a hard one to sort out,but if we keep on digging we might strike lucky.
yes i would like to see your tree but although i am a member of A***** i am not a paid up member so i dont know how you would go about me seeing your tree.
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Hi Tac
Did you get my message? Are you able to see my tree now?
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hi jaycey,i cant see any messages from you,
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Ok - not working then - I did exactly the same as I did for 'nestagj' and Ancestry are supposed to send you an invitation to see my tree just by using your nickname 'tac' I can do it another way - if you give me your email address in a pm it'll work.
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sent you a message
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hi jaycey,got it,your susanah lived till a good age,thanks for letting me take a look,cant see any names that ring a bell but its worth keeping in mind.
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Couldn't everything make a lot more sense if William Richard(s),the husband of Hannah,was the brother of Sophia Priscilla on the 1871 Furnace,Sguborycoed census?He is given as born Talybont as,I think Hannah,s husband is in 1911,if it is him with the Shugars in Pontypridd 1911.There is an apparent couple of years difference,but I'm not sure William(or Lydia Harriet) were ever really traced.This would also put him relatively geographically close to Hannah.
Regards
Roger
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That sounds interesting and could be a strong possibility - more research needed.... I'll get on it when I get a spare moment.
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Just to bring forward the 1871 entry and the link with the Jones family:
Here's the 1871 entry:
Furnace, Sguborycoed
Elizabeth Richard, unm, 58, works with farmers, b. Llanfihangelgenauglin (as written!)
Sophiah Prisila Richard, daur, 13, b. Aberystwith (do)
William Richard, son, 10, b. Talybont
Lidia Harriet Richard, daur, 8, b. do
PS - could this Elizabeth be the Elizabeth, wife of Thomas Jones, that osprey found on the 1891
Pentrebach, Ysgubor y Coed, Cards RG12/4586 folio 4 pg 1
Thomas Jones head 53 labourer b. Sguborycoed (deaf & dumb)
Elizabeth wife 63 b. Llanfihangel
Elizabeth J Williams granddau 6 b. Merionethshire, Parish of Dolgelley
Age is a 10 years out but census ages are odd!
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Some minor reinforcement re location/place names.In 1901 (5154 47 2),William is given as born Eglwysfach.The following article demonstrates the equivalence of locations concerned(and may explain the occasional Llanfihangel and Edwin)
http://website.lineone.net/~dyfival1/histegfurn.htm
Regards
Roger
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Possible locations 1881,all Pennal sub district Machynlleth
5478 75 6 -William
5478 18 6 - Hannah
5478 137 1 - Hannah's mother and brother?
(Family together previously "Aber Anghell,Mallwyd- 1871 - 5688 6 4)
Regards
Roger
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Some minor reinforcement re location/place names.In 1901 (5154 47 2),William is given as born Eglwysfach.The following article demonstrates the equivalence of locations concerned(and may explain the occasional Llanfihangel and Edwin)
http://website.lineone.net/~dyfival1/histegfurn.htm
Regards
Roger
hi roger,so are you saying that if someone was born in eglwysfach that could mean they were born in Sguborycoed,sorry if thats a dumb question but it is quite confusing for people who do not know wales places.
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Hi tac
I checked this out when I first found the 1871 family.
From Geunki:
Eglwys Fach [chapelry],see Llanfihangel Genau'r-Glyn
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/CGN/indexpars.html
then
"LLANVIHANGEL GENEU'R GLYN (LLAN-VI-HANGEL-GENAU-Y-GLYN), a parish in the upper division of the hundred of GENEU'R GLYN, county of CARDIGAN, SOUTH WALES, 5 miles (N. E.) from Aberystwith, comprising the townships of Ceulan and Maesmawr, Cyvoeth y Brenhin, Cynnullmawr, Hênllys ,Scybor y Coed, and Tîrmynych, each of which supports its own poor, and containing 3576 inhabitants.
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/CGN/LlanfihangelGenaur-Glyn/
I meant to put it up on the thread but we must have moved on to talking about jaycey's tree and then I went away for a while.
I do believe that I have a couple of cousins (one from each side) living in that area ;D
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thanks brevitas,boy its so confusing,what i really need to do now it find elizabeths birth then hopefully i can go from there.
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Couldn't everything make a lot more sense if William Richard(s),the husband of Hannah,was the brother of Sophia Priscilla on the 1871 Furnace,Sguborycoed census?He is given as born Talybont as,I think Hannah,s husband is in 1911,if it is him with the Shugars in Pontypridd 1911.There is an apparent couple of years difference,but I'm not sure William(or Lydia Harriet) were ever really traced.This would also put him relatively geographically close to Hannah.
Regards
Roger
Hi - quick question before I have to go out:
Is there a quick way to find the references you give for the census' apart from scrolling down all the 1911 census' with William Richards in please?
I have a 1911 census which shows Hannah (wife), Jane, Margaret, Dorothy and William J but no sign of William the husband and you mention above that he might be with the Shugars but I can't find that one.
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Sending PM
Regards
Roger
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Good morning all -
Roger - I'm pretty sure its him in 1911 - everything fits including number of children and years married and he is living in the same street as they did in previously (1891 ? ). I tried to trace William and Lidia Harriet; without much success; but it would explain the card mentioning Aunt Cilla .......could Ann (buried with Sophia Priscillat ) be of the same family ? or maybe an aunt to the three children.
Jaycey - search for William Richards born 1864, Cardiganshire; living in Glamorgan and he should be the second one down.
Hopefully I can put a bit more time to this now-its been manic at work.
Nesta
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hi,didnt someone on here say that william was lodging at another address in the 1911 census,if so i wonder why.
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Yes Tac - I did see post above...................
N
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hi nestagj,thanks,it was just something that jaycey said about unconfirmed info that william richards remarried.
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hi,just to let you know i havent given up on this thread,but still trying to find a birth for elizabeth with sophia priscilla richards as the mother, and it aint easy:-(
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I haven't given up either.
Did you follow through on osprey's birth reference for Elizabeth Jane Williams
Sept quarter 1883 Dolgelly vol 11b 356?
Looking at the NorthWalesBMD site this is proably the equivalent of
Eliza Jane Williams,Dolgellau,Sub District Barmourth,1883-ref DOLB1/21/E158
and another of interest may be
Lizzie Williams,Dolgellau,Sub District Talyllyn,1885-ref DOLB2/16/E306
(These are the references the local office may use)
Whether they would tell you if either had a mother Sophia,a father Evan(or both!) or any other detail by phone or e-mail I can't say.
General enquiries to the County Council are here(including an e-mail form)
http://www.gwynedd.gov.uk/gwy_doc.asp?cat=5526&doc=19116&Language=1&p=1&c=1
General telepone number is 01766 771000,and I think the number at the Registry Office,Cae Penarlag may be 01341 424386
Regards
Roger
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I have found Gwynedd registrars very ready to try to find certificates when I had very little information to go on.
The number to use is now 01766 771000 as all requests go through the central system but are dealt with by the registrars of the different districts.
The only drawback is that you have to pay up front but if the certificate can not be found your money is refunded.
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thank you, Despair and malijibic,
my s.i.l. has a pic of elizabeths grave and it say,s 1885 for her birth,thank you both for the advice, will get on to it tomorrow.
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Yet more speculation:-
What if Elizabeth Richard(s) of the 1871 Sguborycoed census is not the mother of Sophia Priscilla,William and Lidia Harriet(she would be 50 at the latter's birth),but the grandmother,and the true mother is the untraced Ann(e)
Richards in the grave,giving a birth sequence:-
Elizabeth c.1813,Anne c.1840,Sophia c. 1858
with Ann(e) either being unmarried or married to a Richard(s)?
Regards
Roger
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Had found these earlier .....
1871 Census - Mill Street, Aberystwyth
Ann Richards 31 Head Unm Charwoman b. Aberystwyth
Jane Mason 14 Dau Unm General Servant b Geginau ??
Ann Maria Rowe 8 Dau Scholar b Aberystwyth
James L Richards 5 Son Scholar b Aberystwyth
1881 Census Queens Street 4 White Horse Court, Aberystwyth
Anne Richards 40 Head Unm Charwoman b Aberystwyth
James L. Richards 15 Son Unm Mariner b Aberystwyth
but couldn't seem to go back much further: The grave states Ann Richards of Queen Street, Aberystwyth although the age is a bit off;
But Elizabeth is with William, Sophia Priscilla and Lidia Harriet in 1871 ? but she is old to have the children - but maybe they are her younger one's.
Could Elizabeth and Anne be aunt and niece; sister and daughter of the Richard Richards mentioned on the grave.
Nesta
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Just been going through the posts again - Tac you mention that Elizabeth Richards' father was Richard Richards - where has that snippet come from - is it from a marriage certificate; cause the grave notes that Ann Richards is the daughter of Richard Richards
Nesta
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Just been going through the posts again - Tac you mention that Elizabeth Richards' father was Richard Richards - where has that snippet come from - is it from a marriage certificate; cause the grave notes that Ann Richards is the daughter of Richard Richards
Nesta
sorry nestagj,elizabeths father was supposedly evan williams,but some how i dont think this is true (as she didnt have any fathers name in the first marriage )and in her second marriage her husband had a father of the same name
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Sorry Tac - I didn't mean Elizabeth Williams i meant Elizabeth Richards mother of Sophia Priscilla who married Thomas Jones
from your post #191
elizabeth richards father was richard richards,a labourer(1871).and at the time of marriage to thomas jones she is at egwyls fach
and on elizabeth williams marriage cert to john jenkins,no name given for father.
on her second marriage to david williams her father is down as evan williams(deceased)but i have a feeling this a little white lie as david williams father had the same name.
Do you have this marriage certificate ?
Cannot seem to find Lidia Harriet in either the BMD;s nor the census ::)
Nesta
Nesta
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hi nestagj
yes i have this cert,elizabeth richards, spinster, full age.(who married thomas jones1871) fathers name was richard richards,labourer.the witnesses were thomas jones and richard davies.
sorry havent been on this thread much as been having another go at my own family history:-(, but i do look in and waiting for a reply to the email i sent gwynned.gov that despair found for me.
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Thanks Tac; its ok I keep dipping in and out as well. I have my own brick walls !!! I shall have a search for a richard richards with daughter anne and elizabeth..................this family does no want to be found !!
speak soon
Nests
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hi all,i have had no reply to my email i sent a couple of weeks ago,so now i will write and send a real letter :).
just noticed on the 1911 census,elizabeths birth place is penmaenpool staton?dolgelly,i cant find staton and google wants me to look at station.
is there a place called staton in dolgelly ,any one know.
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Hi Tac
hope this works
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penmaenpool_railway_station
Nesta
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hi nestagj,yes i looked at that,so would it mean that elizabeth was born at the station?.Also who filled the census forms in,was it the head of house or
did the enumerator do you know.
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If Elizabeth was born 1885 at the station,the relevant census looks to be the 1891:
4642 64 2
The occupants are Thomas and Jane Rogers,and she is given as born Talybont,Cardiganshire 1857 with the most likely wedding:
Thomas Rogers and Jane Richards 1876 Aberystwyth registration district
The 1881 census has a family called Clapperton(5546 74 11)
I identified the station by the proximity to The George Hotel
Regards
Roger
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Oh dear - yet another Richards born Talybont ! I think the wiki article states that there is a station keepers house.
heading to bed now gnight
N
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And the following is an even more speculative link:-
Thomas Rogers dies1894 ,aged 38,Dolgelly(never know which variant spelling to use.
Jane Rogers marries William Jones 1895 Dolgelly
A Jane Jones(born 1857 Aberystwyth)is with a Sophia Richards in Radnorshire(county where Thomas Rogers was born),1901 census.
Regards
Roger
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the 1911 census is the only one, for now, that shows the form filled out by the householder which is why it is one form per house. The census for other years shows the enumerators' returns. So, on the 1911, look for the signature at the bottom right hand corner of the form and there should be the signature of the person who filled out the form.
This thread seems to be getting a bit circular going over the same info. Tac, it would be a good idea if you made notes from this thread and then post a new query, with a link to this one, looking specifically for what info you need.
;)
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hi all,havent been on as was waiting for a reply to another email i sent but with no luck .
hi osprey i cant do links :( but i really need if to find the birth of elizabeth jane williams and if im lucky enough to find it the i will be able to go back further.yes i have made some notes from here and i am in the opinion that elizabeth and thomas jones are the grandparents who elizabeth jane williams is with in the 1891 census,the only other option is that elizabeth jane has the wrong date of birth on her gravestone,
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if you know her date of birth, ask the local registrars to look for the cert.
There's probably more than one way of doing links, but I open up another tab and have the thread I'm refering to on that one, control + c on the url and then control + v on the post I'm typing.
;)