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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: JT2011 on Saturday 09 June 12 04:10 BST (UK)

Title: Passengers 1820-1957 looking for 2 ladies
Post by: JT2011 on Saturday 09 June 12 04:10 BST (UK)
Hi Everyone

 If anyone is able to do a look up I would really appreciate it. I can see on the  New York list there is a Mrs Gwendoline Wilson. Another name listed is Edith Crook also Edith May Crook.

These two names are the same as 2 people I am researching. They have been discussed on this site  before and a lot of research has been done prior. I am still trying to find a date of death for them both. Nothing has turned up in Australia. Now looking to see if they lived outside Australia.

Here is some more info to help to cross check with details on the passenger lists.

Gwendoline Vera Wilson
b. June 1907 Queensland

Edith May Crook
b. 28 Aug 1885

They could have departed either Sydney or Brisbane about 1944 onwards and not necessarily together.

Many thanks

JT2011

Title: Passengers 1820-1957 looking for 2 ladies
Post by: shilo on Saturday 09 June 12 06:38 BST (UK)
Hi JT2011

is this the one you are ref to ???

Mrs Gwendoline Wilson age 33  Mr Don Wilson age 35 Lake shore Hotel Cleveland Ohio

arrival 2 Nov 1941 New York, New York

Departure Hamilton, Bermuda

Airline Pan American Airways
Ship  Atlantic Clipper

Jackie
Title: Re: Passengers 1820-1957 looking for 2 ladies
Post by: JT2011 on Sunday 10 June 12 02:36 BST (UK)
Hi Jackie

Thank you for the look up. At the moment I do not have a subscription to Ancestry, the details I could only  view were the two names. No pages or ports etc.

Unfortunately this Mrs Gwendoline Wilson is not mine.

The reason why I am interested in shipping lists after 1944 is I thought my Gwendoline Wilson (nee Hanson) who lived in Brisbane in 1943 could have been a war bride/fiance travelling to the US. By this time, she had been  separated from her husband for many years. They had no children. 

A 1943 ER entry in Brisbane  is the last record I have found for Gwendoline. The 1947 divorce papers have no address recorded for her.

I have checked UK passenger lists and the details given do not match Gwendoline Wilson b. 1907 Queensland.

If you have time does the Edith May Crook on the New York passenger list come from Australia?

I appreciate all your help.


Judy
Title: Re: Passengers 1820-1957 looking for 2 ladies
Post by: shilo on Sunday 10 June 12 02:41 BST (UK)
hi Judy

I saw one of your other post on her a few days ago so I was familiar with the story
I checked usa for a death and marriage but came up with nothing

Edith May Crook no marriage or death for her in USA that I could see

but I will have to have another look because I thought I saw something about her arrival in Aus or a birth in UK
but I had to go out and didn't have time to look any further

give me a min and I will have another look

Jackie




Title: Re: Passengers 1820-1957 looking for 2 ladies
Post by: shilo on Sunday 10 June 12 02:50 BST (UK)
it was a birth and then she gets married so not who you are looking for

what else can you tell me about Edith May Crook  ???

born 28 Aug 1885 where was she born ???

do you have her parents ???

Title: Re: Passengers 1820-1957 looking for 2 ladies
Post by: JT2011 on Sunday 10 June 12 06:11 BST (UK)
Hi Jackie

I appreciate your interest in my brickwall.

Edith May Crook (nee Wyatt)
b. 26 Aug 1885 Springhill Qld
Father: William Edward Wyatt
Mother: Mary Ann Elizabeth Delaney
Last ER 1943 Arncliffe NSW

Also no death cert found by NSW & Qld BDM's and their searches. I have searched other states without success. Also searched NZ plus UK data bases with help from rchatters in those countries.

I have just seen on Ancestry Australian Death Index  a 1947 entry for an Edith Mey Wyatt.  I can't see the detail because I am not signed up. I am wondering could this be her with a misspelling of her name.

Judy
Title: Re: Passengers 1820-1957 looking for 2 ladies
Post by: shilo on Sunday 10 June 12 06:15 BST (UK)
sorry not her

Edith Mey Wyatt
died 7 Dec 1947 in Queensland
parents Herbert William and Olive Clarke
Reg no 004915
Page 2487
Title: Re: Passengers 1820-1957 looking for 2 ladies
Post by: majm on Sunday 10 June 12 06:15 BST (UK)
http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/familyHistory/familyHistory.htm  

The index here is free to search and covers a greater timespan than the Ancestry one.  Ancestry index for NSW is based on that index !  ;)

If you are considering ordering a certificate, may I suggest you use an Official Transcription Agent.  

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,300394.0.html      

Cheers,  JM
Title: Re: Passengers 1820-1957 looking for 2 ladies
Post by: majm on Sunday 10 June 12 06:21 BST (UK)
Edith May Crook (nee Wyatt)
Last ER 1943 Arncliffe NSW


Do you have the NSW BDM cert/transcript for the 1943 death of an Edith May CROOK #141
CROOK  Edith May recorded given names of parents : THOMAS RAY and  EDITH MARY  registered  SYDNEY

Have you tried  http://ryersonindex.net/search.php     The volunteers regularly update that site.

Cheers,  JM
Title: Re: Passengers 1820-1957 looking for 2 ladies
Post by: shilo on Sunday 10 June 12 06:22 BST (UK)
thats interesting it doesn't mention a middle name on this search

Edith Wyatt
born 26 Aug 1885
parents William Wyatt and Elizabeth Delaney
Reg 1885 Queensland
Page 16331
number B034906

I will try another
Title: Re: Passengers 1820-1957 looking for 2 ladies
Post by: majm on Sunday 10 June 12 06:37 BST (UK)
I cannot find  your Edith May CROOK at Arncliffe in 1943 NSW Electoral Roll.   
Edith May Crook (nee Wyatt)
b. 26 Aug 1885 Springhill Qld
Father: William Edward Wyatt
Mother: Mary Ann Elizabeth Delaney
Last ER 1943 Arncliffe NSW

NSW ER 1937
Edith May CROOK, 59 Hannam St, home duties
Robert James CROOK, same address, no occupation   (to me that is indicating a person who has retired).

I can see a NSW marriage in 1916 indexed for Robert J CROOK and Edith M WYATT.  Registered Sydney #12882.

I can see a NSW death in 1950 indexed for a Robert James CROOK registered in Sydney. 

Have you looked for notices in the digitised newspapers, free to search

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/home


Cheers,  JM
Title: Re: Passengers 1820-1957 looking for 2 ladies
Post by: shilo on Sunday 10 June 12 06:38 BST (UK)
ok this time I went to Qld gov site

something is not right here  ???

the only Edith May that is coming up is this

1908/C7512   Edith May Wyatt   parents Henry Wyatt and Martha Cox

the only Edith that you have mentioned with the those parents doesn't have the middle name of May

1885/B34906   Edith Wyatt parents William Wyatt and Elizabeth Delaney


 ??? ??? ??? ??? ???




Title: Re: Passengers 1820-1957 looking for 2 ladies
Post by: shilo on Sunday 10 June 12 06:45 BST (UK)
have just modified post to add father's surname
Title: Re: Passengers 1820-1957 looking for 2 ladies
Post by: shilo on Sunday 10 June 12 06:46 BST (UK)
so which one are we looking for ?????????
Title: Re: Passengers 1820-1957 looking for 2 ladies
Post by: shilo on Sunday 10 June 12 06:50 BST (UK)
I assume this is the marriage you are ref to

Edith M Wyatt married Robert J Crook
Registered Sydney, New South Wales
1916
Reg no 12882

are we working from this or from her parents ???

Title: Re: Passengers 1820-1957 looking for 2 ladies
Post by: majm on Sunday 10 June 12 06:57 BST (UK)
so which one are we looking for ?????????

I am not at all sure ....  I cannot find the one for 1943 at Arncliffe.   There are people with that surname, in that elecorate but with different given names, and they may well be living people, so I have not followed them up.  

Perhaps the OP has the 1943 dc for Edith May CROOK.   I realise the online index has different given names for her parents, but that could at least help to eliminate any of the sightings for the Edith May Crook at Arncliffe.  

That's the marriage I can see too. 

Cheers,  JM
Title: Re: Passengers 1820-1957 looking for 2 ladies
Post by: majm on Sunday 10 June 12 07:06 BST (UK)
More info in these ….

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,588290.0.html
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,565717.0.html
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,578973.0.html
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,598361.0.html
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,598336.0.html

Cheers,  JM
Title: Re: Passengers 1820-1957 looking for 2 ladies
Post by: shilo on Sunday 10 June 12 07:41 BST (UK)
hi Judy

so I have had a cuppa read all the post JM has posted and possible a few more and tried to make heads and tails of it all

and to be honest I am confused  :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\

could you please tell us are we working from her parents or from the marriage to Robert J Crook

 ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ???
Title: Re: Passengers 1820-1957 looking for 2 ladies
Post by: majm on Sunday 10 June 12 12:12 BST (UK)
I am also confused
May I add some questions

How certain are you that

a) the 1885 Brisbane born lass is same person who married in 1916 to Robert Crook in NSW ... if you have bc and/or mc please type up ALL the info on these as often fresh eyes can help you

b) why do you suspect that in the 1940s or later a woman born in 1885 would have undertaken a trip to the USA leaving her likely NSW based family and not returned?

c) do you  have either or both the NSW dcs 1943 and 1950 and if so please type up ALL info including cemetery/crematorium details ... fresh eyes to help  ADDING BUT NOT names of their children on the dcs unless you DEFINITELY know each one is already deceased... Gender and ages help though...

Cheers JM

hi Judy

so I have had a cuppa read all the post JM has posted and possible a few more and tried to make heads and tails of it all

and to be honest I am confused  :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\

could you please tell us are we working from her parents or from the marriage to Robert J Crook

 ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ???
Title: Re: Passengers 1820-1957 looking for 2 ladies
Post by: cando on Sunday 10 June 12 12:40 BST (UK)
Quote
I cannot find  your Edith May CROOK at Arncliffe in 1943 NSW Electoral Roll.   
Quote from: JT2011 on Today at 06:11:57
Edith May Crook (nee Wyatt)
b. 26 Aug 1885 Springhill Qld
Father: William Edward Wyatt
Mother: Mary Ann Elizabeth Delaney
Last ER 1943 Arncliffe NSW

NSW ER 1937
Edith May CROOK, 59 Hannam St, home duties
Robert James CROOK, same address, no occupation   (to me that is indicating a person who has retired).
JM

Quote
Quote
Last record we have for her is 1943 Electoral Roll Entry for Sydney.
JT2011

What was Edith's address in 1943 as the last enrolment I can find for Edith May is with her Robert James CROOK in 1937.

Cando

Quote
Cando your ER date 1937 is correct. My date was for another person I am researching
JT2011

I feel we have exhausted the available online records.  I did comment previously on another thread that having searches done by Qld BDM and NSW BDM would not find the death of Edith if she had entered another relationship and died using the surname of her partner with no parents noted.

I also thought she may be a tad old to be a WW2 bride being born 1885.

Cheers
Cando
Title: Re: Passengers 1820-1957 looking for 2 ladies
Post by: majm on Sunday 10 June 12 13:59 BST (UK)
I have added to my post ... Reply 18 re being careful in listing the names of then living named issue/children listed on the dcs...

And I am also confused by the contradictions across several threads including the 1943 v 1937 Electoral Roll info ...  On another thread theres a discussion about a CROOK marriage with groom aged 30 at marriage as per his 1976 NSW dc and an occuption for apparent 1963 Enrollment BUT  with the lack of occupation in the 1930s ...  May I suggest they are perhaps TWO different chaps with similar names ... Perhaps one died 1950 .... and perhaps neither share any relatives...

Also I am saddened that on some of the earlier threads that questions were not answered re results of follow up enquiries to NSW BDM as that could help other RChatters future queries .....

Cheers JM
Title: Re: Passengers 1820-1957 looking for 2 ladies
Post by: JT2011 on Monday 11 June 12 00:59 BST (UK)
Hi Everyone

I do appreciate your help with posts and help. Another family member is also trying to solve the mystery of Edith May Crook.

A family member has the 1916 marriage cert to Robert James Crook.

However I do have the death cert of her daughter 1980/106469 Ruby Edith Crowther and her mother's name is Edith May surname unknown.

I have a letter from NSW BDM stating, "I hereby certify that a search has been made in the Registers kept by me and no trace can be found of the registration from 1916 to 7 March 2011 inclusive of the death of Edith May Crook formerly Wyatt." I have a similar letter from Qld BDM.

I would expect if a customer pays a BDM for a search and provides them with a lot of information including the names of parents and children then the search would be an exhaustive one similar to how an experienced researcher goes about their research.

I realise Edith could have remarried or had a de-facto relationship. I have researched these options many times using various on line indexes without success. This was mentioned  in the letters to both BDM's to help in their search.

Should I write to the BDM's again requesting another search?

Edith May Crook is the Auntie to Gwendoline Vera Wilson. They both go off the radar about 1943 and both are separated from their husbands.
I thought checking various passenger lists was another option in trying to track them down.

Many thanks everyone for your help.

Judy
Title: Re: Passengers 1820-1957 looking for 2 ladies
Post by: majm on Monday 11 June 12 02:26 BST (UK)
Hi there,

The function of the NSW BDM is not to conduct genealogy searches.  It is to record and to maintain a record of the registrations of births, deaths and marriages in the state of NSW.   So their answer to your enquiry may well have not made any consideration for the additional information you provided them.   NSW BDM answered the express question you posed.   

Do you have the 1943 dc for Edith May Crook?

Do you have the 1950 dc for Robert James Crook?


I am obviously not the only RChatter who has posted info that Edith May Crook was NOT enrolled at Arncliffe in 1943 and the last sighting for her was 1937. What electorate was Edith May enrolled in as at 1943?

Please answer the questions I posed at reply # 18.

I too have exhausted my online resources.   May I note that there are restricted periods for access to BDM records for Australia.  Each state and territory has different restrictions, but IF you know your own name is attached to a record within the restricted period then you can gain access to those records.  The restrictions relate to the length of time between when the event occurred and the current  calendar year.   

If you check the Qld BDM online site you will see their restrictions.   The NSW BDM site does not display births less than 100 years ago, nor marriages less than 50 years ago, nor deaths less than 30 years ago.   BUT these events are of course registered and IF you know you are NAMED on a restricted record, you are of course entitled to obtain the record. 

Info about NSW BDM searches and additional searches includes :

"Option 2: Registry Searches
Please provide all known details of the person's record you wish to search including their:

Surname
First name
Date and place of birth, death or marriage
Any other relevant details"


http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/familyHistory/howToTraceYouFamTree.htm#RegistrySearches

Each specific search attracts fees and charges. 

Cheers,  JM.



Hi Everyone

I do appreciate your help with posts and help. Another family member is also trying to solve the mystery of Edith May Crook.

A family member has the 1916 marriage cert to Robert James Crook.

However I do have the death cert of her daughter 1980/106469 Ruby Edith Crowther and her mother's name is Edith May surname unknown.

I have a letter from NSW BDM stating, "I hereby certify that a search has been made in the Registers kept by me and no trace can be found of the registration from 1916 to 7 March 2011 inclusive of the death of Edith May Crook formerly Wyatt." I have a similar letter from Qld BDM.

I would expect if a customer pays a BDM for a search and provides them with a lot of information including the names of parents and children then the search would be an exhaustive one similar to how an experienced researcher goes about their research.

I realise Edith could have remarried or had a de-facto relationship. I have researched these options many times using various on line indexes without success. This was mentioned  in the letters to both BDM's to help in their search.

Should I write to the BDM's again requesting another search?

Edith May Crook is the Auntie to Gwendoline Vera Wilson. They both go off the radar about 1943 and both are separated from their husbands.
I thought checking various passenger lists was another option in trying to track them down.

Many thanks everyone for your help.

Judy
Title: Re: Passengers 1820-1957 looking for 2 ladies
Post by: majm on Monday 11 June 12 02:47 BST (UK)
   
Do you have the 1943 dc for Edith May Crook?

Do you have the 1950 dc for Robert James Crook?



If you do not have these, then for less than the cost of an additional search conducted by NSW BDM you could obtain NSW BDM Official Transcripts of both those records from Official Transcriptions Agents listed by NSW BDM at the link in my last reply.   Depending on the informant's own knowledge you should then know if that is YOUR Edith May Crook and the names of the children of her marriage.   You should also know the burial/cremation details.

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,300394.0.html

NSW BDM death certs headings:
"Full name,
sex and age,
date and place of death,
place of residence,
usual occupation and
marital status at date of death
Place of marriage, age when married,
full name of spouse
Children's name and ages
Parent's names including mother's maiden name

Cause of death and duration of last illness

Burial or cremation date and place"
(Source: NSW BDM online site)

Cheers,  JM
Title: Re: Passengers 1820-1957 looking for 2 ladies
Post by: majm on Monday 11 June 12 05:00 BST (UK)
Hi there,

Most likely the following matters have been considered previously, but perhaps across several threads.   I apologise if I am duplicating any info, as I recall posting about the NAA digitised records for this chap quite some time ago.

BUT in August 1940, Robert J Crook of 59 Hannam St, Arncliffe would have been at least 55 years of age.  He was a WWI AIF returned serviceman.  It could well be he was on a Veteran’s pension due to War Service injuries, and thus had not been employed for a number of years.     I also note that his AIF records show he was   31 years 10 months on enlistment in Oct 1916, so born circa 1884. His occupation back in 1916 was upholsterer.

If I had to choose between a death registered in 1976 and a death registered in 1950 for that chap,  I think I would have obtained the 1950 dc ahead of the 1976 dc.    The NSW BDM online index notes the 1956 chap’s mother’s given names as Eliza Victoria May, and of course other RChatters have given the 1938 NSW dc reference for a 76 year old Eliza Victoria CROOK.   

The 1937 NSW ER has Eliza Victoria CROOK at the same address as Edith May CROOK and Robert James CROOK (ie 59 Hannam St Arncliffe). 

The 1933 NSW ER has Eliza Victoria CROOK 47 Park St, Erskineville.  There is no one else by that surname at that address.  However, I do note there is a Robert James CROOK, and no one else by that surname at 21 Park St, Erskineville.  That chap is a linesman.     As I recall, linesmen could be employed by at least NSW GR and the PMG, as well as other non government companies involved in signalling equipment.   It is quite possible that the chap on the 1933 roll at Erskineville was a single man, perhaps NEWLY enrolled perhaps he recently turned 21 years of age.   It is possible that it was this chap who was the linesman on the NSW ER IN 1963 that is mentioned earlier and perhaps it was his death in 1976….   It is possible the 1950 death and the 1976 death are for chaps that are NOT related to each other.   

 As a further point of interest, the 1930 NSW ER has an Eliza Victoria CROOK at 17 Walker St, Waterloo, and there are NO OTHERS with that surname at that address.

May I also mention that back on the Robert J Crook’s AIF papers, his nominated his n o k as Edith May Crook and gave his address as 55 Walker St Waterloo.  But of course that was Oct 1916. 

Various State Libraries do have Electoral Rolls from those historic decades, including many that subscription websites have not uploaded.   NSW Electoral Rolls of course are at NSW State Library.

http://www.naa.gov.au/collection/using/search/index.aspx

http://www.sl.nsw.gov.au/research_guides/indigenous/instructions/elec_rolls_1903_1989.html

http://www.records.nsw.gov.au/state-archives/guides-and-finding-aids/archives-in-brief/archives-in-brief-5

http://www.slq.qld.gov.au/info/fh/electoral_rolls

I should also note that there were quite strict MANPOWER restrictions to females  leaving Australia during WWII, and then post WWII, the War Brides were filling up the liners in the years immediately after the cessation of those hostilities.    There would have been very little opportunity for your elusive Edith May CROOK, born 1885 and her niece, born 1907 to have been accommodated on those War Bride liners.  I think you will find that most of the brides were born after the WWI AIF chaps returned to Australia (ie 1919 and into the 1920s. )  I also think the fares that needed to be found for private persons travelling overseas from any Australian port (including airports) means the passengers needed deep pockets. 

Cheers,  JM
Title: Re: Passengers 1820-1957 looking for 2 ladies
Post by: andycand on Monday 11 June 12 05:48 BST (UK)
Hi

The topic below has more information about Edith May Crook (Wyatt)

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,555752.0.html

The electoral rolls have Robert James CROOK and Dawn Pauline CROOK ( 2nd wife?) at 59 Hannan St in 1949 then

1954 Little St, Forster, NSW
1958 Bruce St, Forster, NSW
1963 Bruce St, Forster, NSW


I have found the 1943 Electoral Roll often referred to

Dawn Pauline CROOK
Edith May CROOK
Robert James CROOK

All at 59 Hannan St, Ancestry has indexed them as COOK

Edith could still be on the roll at that address simply because the Electoral Ofiice were not advised to remove her.

Andy

Title: Re: Passengers 1820-1957 looking for 2 ladies
Post by: majm on Monday 11 June 12 05:55 BST (UK)
Further threads :  (Just been searching Andy, sorry for duplicating, and you could well be ON TRACK, and I could be way off the mark !  :) )

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,557386.0.html 


http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,564972.0.html 

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,555752.20.html


Info re the 1943 dc from Jenster’s thread


Re: Edith May CROOK (born WYATT)
« Reply #13 on: Friday 16 September 11 06:19 BST (UK) »
________________________________________

@JM, The other death certificate is actually for Edith May CROOKS, although it appears as CROOK on NSW BDM. She is buried at Botany Cemetery, NSW (aka Eastern Suburbs Memorial Park). This Edith May Crooks never married and was 34 at the time of her death.


I would be interested to read the details please.  Perhaps JT could ask Jenster to pop them up.  I wonder if the document is an Official Transcription.   Some of the 1940s NSW BDM dcs are issued with handwritten digitised entries and some are typed documents. 

ADDING, I am interested in:
 
Where was that lass born ?
Who was the informant?




Cheers,  JM
Title: Re: Passengers 1820-1957 looking for 2 ladies
Post by: majm on Monday 11 June 12 06:11 BST (UK)
I have found the 1943 Electoral Roll often referred to

Dawn Pauline CROOK
Edith May CROOK
Robert James CROOK

All at 59 Hannan St, Ancestry has indexed them as COOK

Edith could still be on the roll at that address simply because the Electoral Ofiice were not advised to remove her.

Agh, I see 1943,  lines 1611, 1612  and 1613.   Thanks Andy.    And YES, exactly so, in fact no proof she was there in 1937 !
Title: Re: Passengers 1820-1957 looking for 2 ladies
Post by: majm on Monday 11 June 12 06:31 BST (UK)
A family member has the 1916 marriage cert to Robert James Crook.

However I do have the death cert of her daughter 1980/106469 Ruby Edith Crowther and her mother's name is Edith May surname unknown.

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,564972.0.html
I see that Jenster has the birth cert for Ruby E Crook registered in NSW in 1909. 

From that bc, where and when were her parents married.  The online index has them as Robert J and Edith M  (given names) .

I am concerned there's several families with same surname that are not actually related to each other. 

ADDING, who has the 1929 mc for Ruby E CROOK ?  It was registered at Wollongong  # 4143.   What info about her parentage from that please?   Who were the witnesses?  


Cheers,  JM

Title: Re: Passengers 1820-1957 looking for 2 ladies
Post by: Stephanie Brown on Tuesday 26 January 16 06:17 GMT (UK)
Hello,

Unsure if any of the above people will see this, I am Edith May Wyatt, turned CROOK's Great Great Great Granddaughter, Edith is my grandmothers Grandmother. I ambling for any information regarding this side of the family. My name is Stephanie Brown.