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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Cavan => Topic started by: IrishAndOtherOfOZ on Friday 08 June 12 12:25 BST (UK)
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My Great Great Grandmother Catherine Veitch married G.A. (George Augustus) [de] Winter. Both were teachers in parochial schools in 1827. Catherine was at Ballyconnell (sponsored by C.of I. Rev. Joseph Story of Craneghan, Ballyconnell); George was at Fenagh in Leitrim (sponsored by C. of I. Rev. J.W. Moore of Fenagh). After they married (place and date unknown, but by 1831 apparently), they appear to have lived in the area round Ballyconnell and Killeshandra, as a certain case regarding a Roman Catholic priest turned Methodist led to George writing an affidavit in support of C. of I. Rev. J. C. Martin of Killeshandra's plea on behalf of the RC-turned-Methodist priest who had been accused of proselytising and had been seized by the Magistrate.
Catherine and George had their first children born in Cavan. Their oldest son was John De Winter; daughter Elizabeth Catherine was born in Cavan abt. 1832ish?; daughter Rebecca ditto, abt 1834ish?. By 1840 Catherine and George had moved on to Grange, nr. Kilmore, Armagh.
Questions I would like help with: 1. Who would have been Catherine's parents?
2. Where did George and Catherine marry, and when?
3. Who were George's parents?
4. When and where were each born?
I have spent a lot of time researching this family on the Net (my only means of doing so) and these questions I have been unable to find the answers to.
Still in hope.....
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Rector of Drumully in 1758. William Veech/Veitch, ( V.B.), Lie. 28 April, 1760 was the son of John Veitch, of Gartinardress, Killeshandra, his mother was Elizabeth Semple, [sister of John Semple, of Derryskert, Co. Cavan], educated by Mr. Grattan, entered Trinity College Dublin on July 14, 1739, aged 17, B.A. 1744.
His Will is dated 3 July, 1783, proved as of "Rev. W. Veitch, of Newtownbutler," on 20th Dec., 1788, mentions his nephews John and William Ingham....so possibly married Newtownbutler or Drumully??
I wonder if Rev Veitch had children, not sure where you could find out, in that he could be her g/father!!
These Veitches connect with the Swanzys of Belturbet and might be mentioned in their book!!
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Well thanks to volunteers taking photographs of gravestones and contributing them FREE for the benefit of others you now can get a photo of her gravestone with death date so you can apply for her death certificate which should get her father's name and his!!
A big thanks must go to Joyce for submitting them!!
It is the last picture here... http://www.igp-web.com/igparchives/ire/wicklow/photos/tombstones/wicklow-delgany-2/index.html
An example of how people can contribute to the benefit of all.
In | Loving Memory of | GEORGE AUGUSTUS de WINTER | of Delgany | Late of
Grange, Co. Armagh | died 29th of June 1885 | also | CATHERINE | his beloved
wife | died 21st of January 1880 | and | ROBERT WILLIAM NASSAU | their youngest
son | died 1st August 1885 | Be ye also ready | They rest from their labours.
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Well, I started to reply and the wind from a storm over here cut the electricity off, so here goes again:
Thank you Hallmark (Dave) for the 2 suggestions. The first is of curious interest, because if Catherine had a Clergyman grandfather it would add to the numerous ones my brother counted in our tree already! It sounds like a possibility, and it is worth my sleuthing more about. Regarding the second comment and information you posted, Joyce tipped me off about it because she and I have been in contact about this family, and she very obligingly visited the area of the grave, photographed it and put the info up on IGP. She is a helpful lady. All of them placing the info on IGP are doing us all a great service, as you say.
I do have copies of the death certificates of George and Catherine. They don't mention, however, the parents of either of them. This is why I hoped someone might be able to help with clues re the marriage, because marriage certificates usually mention at least the fathers.
I am aware that baptismal records do, too. So if anyone has clues on e.g. Catherine's baptism it would be helpful.
Meanwhile, I shall continue sleuthing re e.g. the info you gave.
What does (V.B.) mean in the text of what you wrote?
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"the wind from a storm..." are you sure??? LOL. Maybe you are getting too near....
V. B. would be Visitation Book..which one I don't know! Possibly Leslie's... Pity the Death Certs don't give parent(s)! So, who was the informant? Was there a Will?
http://www.fenagh.com/ might be worth contacting to see if they have anything, they are quite active in history stuff...anything on George, etc...??
One thing might be worth checking and that is....Where did they train to become teachers? One of mine trained at King's College in Dublin, I found her record on line...
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0nfw/ type of thing!! Can college records be found? Just a thought!
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Thanks Dave.
The informant in Catherine's case (d. 1880) was her husband, George De W..
The informant in George's case (d. 1885) was daughter Elizabeth Catherine. She was always close with her parents, as was Rebecca another daughter who was my GGrandmother. We have nothing from anything they wrote or kept which indicates who George and Catherine's parents, other ancestors, or siblings were.
There was a Will for George, and it was proved by Elizabeth, but I don't know its contents, and if it had mentioned parents of either George or Catherine my brother would have known and told me, as he has helped me with everything he can. Back in 2004 he was researching the family in depth, and has never come upon anything in that vein.
George and Catherine both trained with the Society for Promoting the Education of the Poor in Ireland (otherwise known as The Kildare Place Society). From the publications of the Society's records (the couple of years' worth I found on the Net), C. was already teaching in 1826 an G. began teaching in 1827 aged 18 (the minimum allowable age). This was a new and innovative movement, and the reason they were teaching in those small parochial schools. (The Model Schools where the training occurred in Dublin, though originally catering for both R.C. and C. of I. schools, evolved eventually into the C. of I.'s T.TrainingCollege.) I contacted the C. of I. Training College by e-mail and was told they don't have a genealogist who can search their records for any hint of parentage/origins of their teachers back then. (Incidentally, several of their daughters and one son were teachers, and Rebecca married John [Lindsay] Johnston/e, another teacher who later worked for the educator and philanthropist Vere Henry Lewis Foster. Anyway, the daughters and the 2 sons did not leave us anything that indicates who the antecedents Veitch and [de] Winter were, and neither did our Grandfather.
The Fenagh search is a good idea for the future, but first i was thinking of trying to make some sense of what is available on Veitchs. (For all i know, George might even have been born outside of Ireland — the family were very keen on French and at least one of the daughters studied German as well, and my grandfather and one of his brothers joined the London Huguenot Society as apparently there was supposed to be a connection through the De Winters; not sure whether this was totally reliable or not.)
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I do have copies of the death certificates of George and Catherine. They don't mention, however, the parents of either of them. This is why I hoped someone might be able to help with clues re the marriage, because marriage certificates usually mention at least the fathers.
For a marriage in the 1820s/30s, you wouldn't necessarily get the parents names. You may just get the couples names, their townlands and the 2 witnesses names. It was April 1845 when the provision for recording the father's name was introduced for non RC marriages. The mother's name has never been recorded, on a civil cert, even to this day.
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"...was told they don't have a genealogist who can search their records for any hint of parentage/origins of their teachers back then. "....they mightn't have a genealogist BUT do the records exist?? in that "We have records but no one to look at them"........
Finding where Rev W of Newtownbutler (Will of 1788) is buried could help find other graves.....Maybe RCB!
From; ..The families of French of Belturbet and Nixon of Fermanagh, and their descendants (1908)..Not in Copyright;
Rose Anne Swanzy, married John Veitch, of Roseville, Co Cavan, Cornet 28th Light Dragoons 11 March, 1801, on the Irish
half-pay, eldest son of Charles Veitch, of Gartinardress, Co. Cavan. He d. s.p., will dated 18 Aug., 1840, proved 6 March,
1841.
The Swanzy Pedigree Book is in the RCB http://www.flickr.com/photos/araireland/6837128791/in/photostream but purely from memory I think the Swanzys in Galway married Veitches of Galway.... even if so, there probably won't be much on the Veitches!!!
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I do have copies of the death certificates of George and Catherine. They don't mention, however, the parents of either of them. This is why I hoped someone might be able to help with clues re the marriage, because marriage certificates usually mention at least the fathers.
For a marriage in the 1820s/30s, you wouldn't necessarily get the parents names. You may just get the couples names, their townlands and the 2 witnesses names. It was April 1845 when the provision for recording the father's name was introduced for non RC marriages. The mother's name has never been recorded, on a civil cert, even to this day.
For Civil Certs this is the case, church records differ...if they exist. Unfortunately it is pot luck...Sometimes one even just gets a date and who married who, no witnesses/townland etc, just a miminal note.
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By the way, Dave, and Elwyn, when e.g. John Veitch was "on the Irish half-pay" in the military, was it because they were in the Reserve, or invalided out, or what? Do you know? Why the "Irish" in "Irish half-pay"?
Also, it seems to me from IGP records that members of the Royal Irish Constabulary were more often than not stationed in counties other than those where they were born, though IGP does usually record both county of birth and county where stationed etc... which is helpful.
Would John, a Cornet in 28th Dragoons be part of the Royal Irish Constabulary, or is this something quite different?
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The 28th Dragoons was a military unit; Cornet was the most junior rank of Officer in cavalry regiments, subsequently replaced/renamed by 2nd Lieutenant. The Royal Irish Constabulary was the civilian police force and so completely different but it was common for ex-army men to join the police.
Army (and Navy) Officers who were not required during peacetime were usually put on half pay. Those in regiments based in Ireland appear to have received exactly half their full-time pay (Irish half-pay) whereas those in English military establishments got a slightly different payment which included a calculation for servants and fodder, though I don’t really know the details, nor why the difference.
You are correct that members of the RIC were not stationed in counties where they were born, or where they had family connections. When joining the RIC, they also had to be between 19 & 27 years of age (18 for a candidate whose father was in the RIC or had been). They had to be single, or a widower with no dependant children. They had to have served 7 years before they could apply to marry (though I have seen some exceptions to that). They also had to be at least 5ft 8 in height.
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I've now realised we can rule out John Veitch, Cornet... , who married Rose Anne Swanzy, because he died d.s.p. (without progeny). However, apparently Charles Veitch had other son/s, so another son of Charles might have been my Catherine's father. There was a Charles Veitch of Killeshandra on a list of flaxgrowers in 1796. Maybe he was the same Charles as the Cornet's father....
I found, and "Old Irish Graveyards: county Cavan, part III by Eileen Hewson has (p. 7) a memorial "In loving memory of FRANCIS and REBECCA VEITCH AND FAMILY of Carramore".
Since I don't find places like Carramore and Roseville in a list of Townlands, presumably they are houses? (by contrast, Gartinardress turns out to be a Townland in Killeshandra Civil Parish)
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Yes he was the eldest son of Charles Veitch, of Gartinardress...so by implication there were other sons or a son. Plus the Pedigree in RCB should show them in Galway and another Veitch marriage. Yes he died with no issue
The Swanzys/Nixon/Frenchs etc were extremely well-connected and were very "selective" with marriages.
"http://www.anglocelt.ie/news/region/articles/2008/01/23/25752-school-reunion-committee-seek-your-help/ mentions Carramore.
You don't say which graveyard Francis is in.
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The Gravestone of Francis and Rebecca and Family (I wish they had named the others) was in Tomregan C. of I. in Ballyconnell, and undated according to Eileen Hewson.
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Yes I know the feeling, some of mine just give the Surname!
The ones on this thread certainly appear to be part of one lot and the Legaland ones...as they appear to own property it might be easier researching Land Registry backed up by Wills and Deeds. Property is far better recorded than people!
Richard Veitch of Legaland, Co Cavan died of cholera in August 1833 at a young age in New York so would he be on any Census or can his father's name be got? I'd presume buried in NY...would there be obits?
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I came across the name Veaitch listed in the Killeshandra, Co. Cavan Hearth Tax records dated to 1665. There are also some Veaitch burials in the old Killeshandra graveyard, quote:
Here lyeth the body of James Veaitch, who dyed March 3rd 1714 aged 97 years and of his wife Ennet, who dyed October 6th 1702 aged 58 years. Also here lyeth the body of John Veaitch, who dyed February 26th 1724, aged 50 years.