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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: crozier on Friday 01 June 12 22:08 BST (UK)
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My mother always insisted that Dad's aunt, Ellen Peters, had two sons. I can only track down number one son, William Horace Brown. Ellen/Nell/Nellie married Horace William Brown in 1910 in Whitechapel. Following Horace's death, she immigrated with William to Australia and married Robert William Martin Rowe in Sydney (1919).
Thanks to some previous help I know that Nell and Robert are buried in Rookwood Cemetery. But I would really like to have any information on the elusive second son.
Many thanks in advance. C
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Hi, To really get an answer we would need to know a few things first.
What was Nell's parents names, did she have the second son with first or second husband and when she came to Australia? Have you found the records of her travelling?
Regards
Neil
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Information from previous thread.
Nellie Rowe nee Peters formerly Brown born 1891 Surrey died 1975 Sydney buried Rookwood Parents George Nye Peters and emily Kate Newell
Second husband Robert Rowe died Sydney buried Rookwood 1957. Parents William Rowe and Mary Frances?
Link to other thread http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,255585.0.html
Do death certificates in the 1950's and 70's show how long in Oz and children of marriage?
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I just re read your post which states that nellie emmigrated with William!!!!
Are you suggesting she left a very young son in England and took only one to Australia? Or could this son have already died IE if born at all. Have you checked birth records in UK for this elusive son?
Neil
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Do death certificates in the 1950's and 70's show how long in Oz and children of marriage?
YES, NSW BDM certs
1. include this question "how long" even in 2012: I am named as the informant on several NSW BDM death certs as early as the 1960s and as recently as earlier this year. The funeral directors each asked this type of question. As I was informing on persons born in NSW, the FDs also asked if the person had resided in NSW all their life. So, in respect of the person who died in the 1960s I provided a) born in NSW and b) lived in NSW until their marriage and c) lived in (nominated the different state) during that marriage and d) returned to NSW after death of that spouse and e) remained in NSW for the rest of their life. The actual certificate shows born Sydney NSW, and the number of years in each state BUT does NOT indicate the years in the other state were actually in the middle of the years in NSW.
2. include children of the marriage : And their given names and ages at the time of the demise of their parent. If there's more than one marriage, then the children of each are listed under each marriage. Deceased children are listed at the conclusion of each list. I even managed to have a possible ex-nupital child listed on an NSW dc because I was able to advise a) I did not know when/where the marriage may have occurred BUT I knew the child's name and I knew the child was born of the mum and the child's siblings were able to verbally confirm the child was their sibling, and the child (an adult actually) was involved in organising the funeral and was a beneficiary of the deceased estate. (Rural NSW Funeral Directors have lots of 'inside' knowledge as to how to complete 2012 NSW BDM forms discreetly).
Cheers, JM
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If Ellen travelled with one son to Australia, either the first son had died, or maybe was born out of wedlock before she married Horace and 'adopted', or perhaps she had a son with second husband? :-\ Other son may have been a stillbirth? Perhaps not registered?
You'll need to check all possibilities.
)I have not yet read your other thread, so apologies if these points were covered there)
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Thank you majm for answering my query re info on certs.
So purchasing the death cert for Nellie Rowe would seem to be the way to go. :)
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Here is Robert's death notice - only one step son mentioned here SMH 30 April 1957
cheers,
Ros
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Hi Ros,
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,255585.10.html Reply # 17, can you find that SMH notice at all?
" 6766/1968 BROWN WILLIAM JOSEPH father HORACE WILLIAM mother ELLEN registered at SYDNEY
I wonder if he is the "other" son?
regrds JEnn "
I think Ryerson gives it as SMH 20 Nov 1968, late of Potts Point
Cheers, JM
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here it is JM - SMH 20 nov 1968
cheers,
Ros
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Thanks Ros,
I think a transcript of his NSW dc could give the nee and former names of his mum, depending if the informant knew that detail, but it should give his age, and place of birth to help support or eliminate him as a possible second son .....
Cheers, JM
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6766/1968 WILLIAM JOSEPH BROWN Father HORACE WILLIAM Mother ELLEN SYDNEY
Who's William Joseph?
Neil
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Umm they had two boys one William Horace and the other William Joseph
20121/1980 BROWN WILLIAM HORACE Father HORACE Mother NELLIE
I imagine it was not difficult to call them.
Neil
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6766/1968 WILLIAM JOSEPH BROWN Father HORACE WILLIAM Mother ELLEN SYDNEY
Who's William Joseph?
Neil
I am speculating he MAY be (and of course may NOT be) the Great Aunt's second son .... as perhaps his mum (Ellen) was that Great Aunt ..... and perhaps his dad was the first husband, William Horace BROWN
My mother always insisted that Dad's aunt, Ellen Peters, had two sons . I can only track down number one son, William Horace Brown. Ellen/Nell/Nellie married Horace William Brown in 1910 in Whitechapel. Following Horace's death, she immigrated .......
Cheers, JM PS, one of my SMITH lot, ie one of the John SMITH chaps, married a couple of times. Wife #1 was Eliza. Wife #2 was Eliza and eldest daughter of each marriage was Eliza. And so Mrs Eliza #2 had two girls who answered to Eliza and Mr S had three who would answer when he called out "Eliza"
edited to remove the JM mistooken of twice inserting Neil's quote. A galloping fingers episode, please forgive
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Umm there are a few tooooo many Horace William Brown's on the BDM though.
One married to Ellen, one to Nellie, (possibly the same person) also one to Mary Ann and yet another to a Clara. Did he get around a bit, or is it just there are a lot of Brown's in the Phone Book.
If he predeceased Ellen's move to OZ then it looks like they had two Williams? A transcript should clear it up ::)
Neil
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There are 2 William Joseph Brown's who died in 1968 in NSW. I think that is the correct death notice as the other one died in Newcastle. (There doesn't seem to be an entry in Ryerson for the one in Newcastle.)
regards,
Ros
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Hi
I'm late onto this post, but; has anyone found the birth of the first son in Britain, have you found her on the census in 1911, when was the first William born and when did his father die??
Do death certificates from Britain list children of marriage?
Also her immigration record would seem to be important if anyone can possibly find it.
And the Australian marriage certificate should list how many children from previous marriage I would think.
mum mum
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I can at least give the following information: Horace William Allen Brown died age 31 on the 27th October 1918 of influenza and pneumonia. Address 37 Billsom Street, Poplar. Death reported by his brother H W Brown.I did find Nell. Horace and William Horace aged 0 on the 1911 census. Will check for any further relevant information. C
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Hi
Are they at kingston, Surrey on the 1911 census, I have been looking through the birth records for that area to see if I could spot a William joseph Brown born there. No luck unfortunately. Someone else have a look please.
I still think a transcript of the marriage Robert Rowe/ Nellie Brown 1919 3805 may give a little more info about her previous marriage.
mum mum
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No. they are at Fairfield Road, Poplar, East London...Horace William, William Horace (age 0) and Nellie.
How can I obtain a NSW marriage certificate?
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No. they are at Fairfield Road, Poplar, East London...Horace William, William Horace (age 0) and Nellie.
How can I obtain a NSW marriage certificate?
From here http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/familyHistory/searchHistoricalRecords.htm
I know that there are details of probate for Nellie Rowe in 1975 but I can't actually find a death record. Do you have it because that would give info about how long in OZ plus husbands and children of marriages.
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Hi
For any of the NSW deaths or marriages listed in these posts you can get a transcription emailed to you by going to the Transcription Agents link on the NSW Website.
http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/index.htm
You should be able to order and pay on line.
mum mum
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nsw bdm
http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/cgi-bin/IndexSearch?form=IndexingSearch&SessionID=34473988&sname=rowe&gname=&fname=&mname=&event=deaths&frange=1975&trange=1975&place=
6532/1975 Nellie Rowe parents George, Emily Kate
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Information from previous thread.
Nellie Rowe nee Peters formerly Brown born 1891 Surrey died 1975 Sydney buried Rookwood Parents George Nye Peters and emily Kate Newell
Thanks to regross for this death record for Nellie. Ordering this could help with children's names.
6532/1975 Nellie Rowe parents George, Emily Kate
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Probate notice SMH April 25 1975
regards,
Ros