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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: rosball on Friday 01 June 12 06:44 BST (UK)
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We are looking for family and descendants of John MacLean service number 344 B company 28th battalion 7th brigade as Greg has found his war medal in W.A. and wants to return it to family.
John MacLean born c1884 in Altandhu Scotland, father Donald MacLean. From digitised WW1 records he enlisted in Northam, W.A. and was a farmer/labourer. From the AIF project http://www.aif.adfa.edu.au:8080/showPerson?pid=184049 it says he was from Narrogin (but it also says father Duncan and we believe that to be a mistranscription)
From the kind rootschatters on Scotland board we have found that his mother is probably Christina and he was still alive in Australia in 1955 (and what a spectacular place Altandhu, Coigach is). http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,600146.0.html
So far we have eliminated :
John Every MacLean who married Winifred May Burton in Northam, W.A. in 1933 as he also enlisted in WW1 and died in 1960 at age 66.
John MacLean who married Edna Elaine Kirkpatrick in 1930 in Perth and lived in Narrogin as he died in 1952 and death notice gives parents as William and Janet MacLean.
Any help greatly appreciated,
Ros
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Lets hope John can be found. :)
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A couple of possibilities John Maclean d1967 Geraldton#11, age 68 parents Donald & Cordulia
John Maclean d 1957 Murchison, parents unk. #20
regards L
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Thanks Lee :)
Although the Geraldton death looks promising I think age is too far out. He gives his age as 31 yrs 3 months on 1 Mar 1915 so (if telling the truth) he was born 1883-1884.
The Murchison death looks more promising in age but the death certificate may not tell us much if his parents were unknown. :( Perhaps I can find something on trove about this man.
cheers,
Ros
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Just waiting on a reply from Lynn Mclean who did the research on the Mt Magnet cemetary records. A slight different spelling on surname for John Maclean but its worth a try. The year of birth for both men? in question is the same except the surname in Mt Magnet is Mclean.
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I wouldn't worry about McLean/Mclean anomoly ... ;)
You're doing a good thing Greg. :) Good luck.
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Ergh forgive me if you have checked this one but.
JOHN MCLEAN Male age 90 Father DONALD Mother UNKNOWN at FREMANTLE REF# 148 in 1968
Birth around 1878 so is a few years out.
Neil
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The 1937 electoral roll has a
John Stuart MacLean as a station hand in Port Headland
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Umm possible marriage
JOHN DONALD MCLEAN + OLIVE JANE HEAD ? They were having children aound early 1900's
Neil
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Thanks for the suggestions, we will check them out. :)
I don't think he was married before WW1 as he gives his father Donald (back in Scotland) as NOK on enlistment. I guess he may have been separated/divorced.
I don't know if Greg wants to say exactly where the medal was found (....??) but it was country W.A.
regards,
Ros
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So far we have eliminated :
John Every MacLean who married Winifred May Burton in Northam, W.A. in 1933 as he also enlisted in WW1 and died in 1960 at age 66.
John MacLean who married Edna Elaine Kirkpatrick in 1930 in Perth and lived in Narrogin as he died in 1952 and death notice gives parents as William and Janet MacLean.
Any help greatly appreciated,
Ros
From the list of marriages 1919-1936 you can also eliminate:
MCLEAN JOHN Male WATTERS MARGARET A G Female FREMANTLE 94 1923
He died in 1964 aged 64 and is buried with Margaret at Fremantle
MCLEAN JOHN K Male CARBARNS DAISY E Female PERTH 706 1932
He died in 1982 aged 81 and is memorialised with Daisy at Karrakatta
MCLEAN JOHN J Male WEST ADA E Female WILLIAMS 43 1921
Probably John Joseph who died 1971 aged 71. Ashes dispersed for both John and Ada
MCLEAN JOHN T Male GRANLAND DORIS E J Female PERTH 801 1934
Probably John Thrower who died 1993 aged 91. Both he and Doris died at Cooloongup.
So looks like no marriage for your John in WA up to 1936; by then he would have been aged around 52.
Debra :)
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Wow thanks Debra - that's a big help in narrowing it down. :) Sadly then there may be no direct descendants.
cheers,
Ros
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There is no marriage shown between Olive Head and John McLean but there is one for her in 1915 to another fellow.
Neil
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Thanks Neil :) I hadn't considered him having a family and then being divorced/separated pre-war before.
Mind you he was only 16 (+/-1) in 1900 - but yes possible.
And looking at the W.A. births I see there was also a John Duncan McLean and an Ada Lydia Houghton who had children in Mullewa, Geraldton, Northam and Kanowna. I wonder if he is a possibility too. I got excited when I saw him moving around all these country towns including Northam but those births start in 1900 too.
Some more to explore ...
cheers,
Ros
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Well I think I can eliminate John Duncan McLean who died in Geraldton in 1930 age 59 according to trove. Pity he left 2 sons and 3 daughters and was roughly in right area.
cheers,
Ros
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It is just possible that this John and Olive married elsewhere IE maybe Scotland but worth a look as they had two sons? I would try and find out what happened to them.
Neil
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Yes good idea Neil. :)
It's quite strange Neil that apart from that cluster of 11 births between 1900 and 1905 there are no further births with father John McLean in W.A. up to 1932. ???
cheers,
Ros
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Well with the WA indexes it shows both fathers and mothers surnames. My take on that on that is they dont necessarily have to be married. But the children are named for the father. If he was not around after 1905 then he was with someone else maybe. But he didn't marry anyone else as there is none for John Donald McLean.
Hope he not related to my next door neighbours......I think they came from WA.
He is .............Mclean
Neil
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I don't think he was married before WW1 as he gives his father Donald (back in Scotland) as NOK on enlistment. I guess he may have been separated/divorced.
Ros, soldiers didn't always name their wives as NOK even if they were married. I've seen it numerous times - even my own grandfather named his father rather than my grandmother as nok. I suppose if the worst happened, the bad news may have been better coming from a relative rather than the army? Just a guess ... :-\
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I didn't realise that Ruskie.
Well that does give us some more hope of finding direct descendants - either Neil's suggestion or others. Hmmm but the W.A. McLean and MacLean births with father John seem to stop at 1905 - still limited by this.
cheers,
Ros
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Hi Ros
No parents are named after 1905 in the WA online Birth Index.
Essie
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I don't think he was married before WW1 as he gives his father Donald (back in Scotland) as NOK on enlistment. I guess he may have been separated/divorced.
Ros, soldiers didn't always name their wives as NOK even if they were married. I've seen it numerous times - even my own grandfather named his father rather than my grandmother as nok. I suppose if the worst happened, the bad news may have been better coming from a relative rather than the army? Just a guess ... :-\
He does also say he is not married when he enlisted, so all that can be deduced is that he was not in any relationship at that time.
I think there were two Olive HEADs - one Olive Jane and one Olive Winifred.
Debra :)
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Hi Ros
No parents are named after 1905 in the WA online Birth Index.
Essie
Thanks Essie :) :D That makes sense - I'm a complete idiot :-[ :-[.
cheers,
Ros
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I can see John Donald McLean living with Olive McLean in Fremantle, WA on 1903, 1906 and 1910 electoral rolls and then they either move interstate or split up or ...
So this is promising.
regards,
Ros
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Ros also there were a lot of porkies told in relation to age on enlistment both up and down in WW1 they didn't ask for a BC. They had rules though I think above 17 and below 35 and first enrolements no children or single.
Some medicals were a bit fudged as well!
I am still unsure of this age thingo are you sure of his birth date in Scotland?
Neil
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Hi Neil,
I did try to find his birth record on Scotland's People in the hope of finding a middle name but I couldn't find a birth for a John MacLean with father Donald in Coigach 1883-1885.
However it is a tiny (beautiful) town with about a dozen families and there is an expert with several webpages who has been tracking all the families from there. This looks like the relevant census data.
in 1881
Donald MacLean Head Mar 40 Crofter
Christina Do Wife Mar 27
Alexander Do Son 8 Scholar
Johan Do Daur 7 Do
Donald Do Son 5 Do
Mary Do Daur 4
Bella Do Daur 3
Roderick Do Son 3Mo
and then
in 1891 (with Donald away from home as it says in the notes)
Christina McLean Head Mar 40 Crofter's Wife
Johan Do Daur Unm 17 Crofter's Daughter
Donald Do Son Do 15 Scholar
Mary Do Daur Do 11 Do
Bella Do Do 10 Do
Roderick Do. Son 9 Do.
John Do Do 7 Do
Christina Do Daur 5 Do
Annie Do Do 1
which agrees with 1884 birth.
cheers,
Ros
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The medal was found in an old rubbish tip on a farm near Geraldton. There where also some air force medals found in same tin. I have asked the question on Airforce medals (from WW2)under another message but have no luck so far. The Air Force Association say that the numbers where not recorded but there must be some way of tracking the owner! If these medals are linked to John Macleans family as they were found in same place then there may be a better chance of finding relatives. Still havnt heard from Lynn Mclean in Mt Magnet which by the way is only 4hrs from Geraldton about the grave site of "John Mclean". Some of the records were destroyed in a fire and it looks like his were amoungst them.
thanks everyone for your help so far!! :)
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The nameing pattern seems right for his second name being Donald as he had an older brother by the fathers first name. It would stand that his first name should be that of his Grandfather and his second that of his father. Of course if they followed nameing tradition. ???
I have never had any luck with the Scottish census showing second names but my scope is limited, perhaps someone with more knowlege would be able to answer why. Best is Baptism records.
Neil
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Does this link to the Mt. Magnet cemetery help?
http://www.ozburials.com/CemsWA/Mount%20Magnet/MtMagnet.htm
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Unfortunatly not Newey but you bought to my attention that John had listed his church as Presbytarian on his service record and the John Mclean buried in Mt Magnet is in the Church of England section. Do you think he may have changed his church to suit his wife if he married or for any other reason or may have just been a mix up somewhere? There is another website "Mt Magnet Cemetaries" that lists John Mclean. when I figure out how to add adresses to this post I will put it up here! ???
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Having had a quick look at the WW11 airforce records on the National Archives of Australia website I found 3 Macleans who were born in W.A.
Is there a service number on the medals by any chance?
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yeah I had a look there as well. the medal I have is more of a "lapel" or "badge" but it has a number engraved on the back.. 52928 and on the front it has had an additional number added in the form of a small brass plaque ..46 which may be a platoon number??? once again when I fgure out how to put a photo of it here I can show you...maybe I should ask the kids!!! ;D
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Hi Ros
Hopefully some of the following can assist you return this gents medal/medals.
Following (my wording) extracted from Australian War Memorial records:
On 1 March 1915, John MacLean enlisted at Northam. He was noted as 31 years and 3 months of age, single, Labourer, Presbyterian. His NOK was noted as Duncan MacLean, father, Seaview House, Altandhu, Scotland. Embarked 9 June 1915 at Fremantle onboard His Majesty's Australian Transport (HMAT) Ascanius.
Following (again my wording) extracted from National Archives of Australia records:
Place of Birth Rothes, NOK Donald MacLean, living abroad. John was twice wounded in action; 26 Oct 1915 (left leg) apparently at Gallipoli and 3 May 1917 (neck & right shoulder) in France. He was promoted to Lance Corporal on 24 October 1917. On 10 April 1919, he disembarked from HMAT Anchises at Albany and was subsequently discharged on 10 June 1919. He was awarded "1914/15 Star No. 5442", "British War Medal No. 3403" and "Victory Medal No. 3399".
See http://www.anzacday.org.au/education/medals/general/ww1.html
Q98 (also Scots by birth and Aussie ex-Serviceman)
Fremantle
WA
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Hi Q98
Thanks for remotivating us in our search. :)
And Greg you can send photos by e-mail to me and I'll upload them.
regards,
Ros
(I keep imagining John lying in the trenches or wounded in hospital and dreaming of being back in the peaceful beauty of Althandu - what a terrible contrast)
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Ros, photo of "Victory" medal (John Maclean)
badges unknown owner but found with medal (more than likely a relation of John)
Any ideas on how to trace owner of badges greatly appreciated as may lead to Johns relatives.
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Have you tried contacting the museum in Bullcreek W.A. - link listed below.
http://www.raafawa.org.au/museum/index.html
As there is a number on the back of the RAAF badge they may be able to give you an idea of how this can be traced.
Their email address on their website is museum@raafawa.org.au
Jan.
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Great photos Greg :)
And thanks for the suggestion Jan. :)
I'm not sure if this is the site Greg tried before but at the risk of annoying them I will try it now and include Greg's photos.
regards,
Ros
Adding : sent :)
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Well I didn't get a reply from the RAAF Museum (and that was sent nearly a year ago).
Did you get a reply from the Mt Magnet Cemetery lady Greg?
I wonder what we could try now ...? Would the WA branch of RSL give out info on deceased members (if John was a member)?
cheers,
Ros
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Have you tried contacting this website http://www.lostmedalsaustralia.com/ (http://www.lostmedalsaustralia.com/).
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Thanks for the suggestion stuart_d. I'm fairly certain that Greg contacted him but he wanted Greg to send him the medal and forget about it. And Greg wanted to know that it was going to someone who would value it and who that was, so was reluctant to let go of it. That was some time ago before we became stuck so maybe he will reconsider.
Greg may be along shortly to correct me if I'm wrong.
cheers,
Ros
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Hi Ros
What you have is the "Victory Medal" depicting "winged victory". It was issued to all those who were awarded the "1914 Star" and to MOST of those who were awarded the "British War Medal". The "Victory Medal" was NEVER awarded singly. Together, these three medals were known colloquily as "Pip, Squeek and Wilfred".
The other two medals should be somewhere or perhaps lost. As a Veteran, I cannot understand anyone who would "dispose of" a man's medals!!!!!
Q98
Fremantle
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Thanks Q98.
Yes it is hard to understand how they came to be on the remains of a campfire in an old camping site. Perhaps the son (in RAAF) in a fit of anger or grief threw them away onto the fire(speculating wildly). Or maybe they were stolen and then the thief found he couldn't easily sell them in a country town and just threw them away.
Maybe another trip to the campsite for Greg to see if he can find pip and squeak. (I think it was many years ago as a kid that he found them so unlikely to find more)
regards,
Ros
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I think there is a possibility they were attached to the jacket that was burnt in the fire. It may have been stolen and would have attracted some attention. To a thief in the scrub the medals would not have held any value.
Burning one's own jacket would be unusual, not unbelievable, I have heard of it happening!
Neil
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I just went back and looked for a refresher on this post as it has been awhile since it commenced. I am having a funny day. :o A good friend is touring Scotland in that area at the moment. ::)
Neil
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Me again Ros
In his Army records, John's surname is spelled MacLEAN and it later changes to McLEAN (probably a transcription by Orderly Room clerk) while he himself clearly signs MacLEAN!
Further to my previous communication, I can confirm he was wounded in the thigh at Gallipoli on 26 Sep 1915.
His "1914 Star" was numbered 5442, "British War Medal" was 3403 and "Victory Medal" was 3399. There is a trio of these on "evil-bay" for an asking price of $750. Phew!
The Air Force Association lapel badge is probably of early 1970s. I believe the "46" depicted on front to represent 46 Squadron, Royal Air Force as there was no 46 Squadron in the Royal Australian Air Force. The number on the reverse of the badge could represent the manufacturers mark. 46 Squadron, RAF was disbanded on 31 August 1975. There is a 77 Squadron, RAF lapel badge on "evil-bay", for an asking price is $30. However it has a pin and hook for affixing to a lapel while yours has a method of affixing through a lapel buttonhole.
Q98
Fremantle
Q
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My mates Dad was in 77 squadron during WW2 he went to Darwin and then onto Milne Bay I think.
Neil
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1970's for the airforce badge for 46th squadron - that is a real help Q98 is filtering out the
other possibilities.
OK I have to admit that I am an idiot (yes you all knew that) and that I did post a query about the RAAF badges on the services board. And I chose the WW1 sub-board! Yes I realised almost immediately that the RAAF was probably in its infant stages in WW1 and would not have badges and insignia or badges of that nature. But 1970's makes me realise just how wrong I was.
cheers,
Ros
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Well much to the dismay of many around the world Australia had the Australian Flying Corps (AFC), which was formed on 22 October 1912. Yes prior to WW1.
It doesn't rate much of a mention though in terms of battles in WW1. There are some possible comemmorative medals. But i don't know of them.
So don't feel too bad Ros :'(
Neil
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Hi all,
I could be wrong but i think the "46" may be the issue year of the RAAF badge?
If there wasn't so many MacLeans around this wouldn't be so hard!
Greg
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Hi ros and Greg
I have taken several close looks at both your lapel badge and the other on "evil-Bay" and believe Greg to be correct in saying the "44" below the crown is the year of manufacture.
I arrived at this conclusion due to the relative condition of your badge compared to that on "evil-Bay". If your lapel badge was indeed manufactured in 1944 as now seems probable, it is 33 years OLDER than the other and one would expect what is visible on yours:
(a) although in good condition, the enamel appears dull and faded, and
(b) a general "smoothing" of the surface probably due to handling over many years (now approx70 years).
Regards
Q98
Fremantle
W.A.