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Research in Other Countries => New Zealand => New Zealand Completed Requests => Topic started by: Elan on Wednesday 30 May 12 08:12 BST (UK)
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Help Please!
Martha Stapleton born out of wedlock Christchurch 1882. Father Harry, Mother Eliza Watkins.
Evidently had a sibling born in wedlock circa 1884.
Married George Cooke aged 21 years -18 May 1904 in Avonside Christchurch
Had four children and left the marriage circa 1911 and "apparently" went to Australia.
Would like to any information on her from then on.
She is NOT the Martha Cooke died 1945 Wellington. :) :) :)
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Hi Elan,
Have PMd you details of the death of George and Martha's son also called George and George jnr's wife Kathleen, both of whom died in Hamilton.
Craig.
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Hi Elan
Here is the birth
1882/12090 Stapleton Martha to Eliza and Harry
I don't see a sibling
Cheers Janette
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Their marriage
1884/583 Eliza Watkins to Harry Stapleton
Cheers Janette
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Martha Stapleton born out of wedlock Christchurch 1882. Father Harry, Mother Eliza
Hello,
Do you have any idea of the ages of the parents, Harry and Eliza.
There is a 1922 death for a Harry STAPLETON buried in Sydenham Cemetery, Christchurch. His age at death gives him a birth year of 1858.
He shares the plot with a Fanny STAPLETON. Her age at death gives her a birth year of 1863. (Is the name Fanny interchangable with Eliza)
The cemetery website gives some additional info about them which might or might not help you identify them.
Christchurch City Council Cemeteries Database
http://librarydata.christchurch.org.nz/Cemeteries/
If they are in the general age bracket it may be worth looking into burial records** to see who purchased the plot. Or maybe look for a death notice (which weren't all that informative at the time) or an In Memoriam on the anniversary (which were quite helpful).
Regards
Beg
**I can't find a mention of either death on the NZSG Burial Locator CD so I'm not sure if the NZSG Cemetery Fiche for Sydenham cemetery is likely to have the burial records. Not sure where else to look for them. Sorry
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According to NZ papers past, Harry and Eliza seem to have split up soon after their marriage. Eliza had been previously married to an Enos McKenzie and the second marriage was found to not be legal. Harry had absconded and Eliza was trying to get child support money out of Harry's father, Thomas.
One of many articles (this does confirm there were two children, one born after the marriage):
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&cl=search&d=ODT18850506.2.18
There is also an article in 1889 about a court case in Auckland, Wright v. Lizzie Stapleton (possibly the same woman as she apparently was living in Auckland in 1885).
Thomas Stapleton (36), wife Martha (34), and children Tom (11), Everard (9), Harry (6), Ann (4) and Richard (2) arrived as assisted immigrants in 1865. This does suggest that the 1922 burial is the right one (possibly Fanny is a second wife, though). It appears that some of this family went to Sydney (Everard at least), so if Martha was in contact with that side of the family maybe that's where she ended up?
btw, I can only see three children born to Martha and George in NZ - 1906/1908/1910
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Thanks Beg and Jorose will look at Sydney AU for Martha and also the 1889 papers past and the Syndenham records. Great suggestions :)
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Hi Elan
Martha COOKE (nee STAPLETON) :
You say she had 4 children - (and there are as mentioned, birth registrations for three of them 1906/1908 & 1910).
Do you have the name / or year of birth of child number 4 ?
Did she leave behind all of her children when she exited the marriage ?
You say she left around 1911 .... so was this 4th child, the last born ?
~ Lu
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Hi
Last child was born 1910 named Stanley. ( i'm at work so haven't got the actual birth date with me) I do know that when her husband George died 1932 on his death cert it clearly states Martha as wife no widow so she was still alive then and there were 4 issues 3 males and 1 female which gels with my findings. Apparently left all children who were eventually fostered out.
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Hello Elan,
It's often the case that the information on a death certificate is only as good as the informant's knowledge. So if Martha had disappeared twenty years earlier there's no guarantee that the informant knew if she was alive or dead. Out of interest, who was the informant in this case.
And did the death certificate mention the ages of the children as well as their gender.
Don't forget that although it says George had four children it doesn't necessarily mean that Martha was the mother of all of them. The fact that BDM NZ mentions only three children to George and Martha is quite strange. Especially as you say the youngest was Stanley b.1910, which means the 100-year privacy rule isn't an issue.
Also out of interest, where is George buried. Is he the George COOKE buried in Ellesmere Cemetery.
Regards
Beg
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Will reply re informant when I get home tonight can't remember
George was buried in Geraldine. I do know that his son in law Roy Neutze (Hazels husband) purchased the plot.
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Can't see an informant on cert BUT i did only get in the copy.
Issues clearly state males 27,25,22 female 24.
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Issues clearly state males 27,25,22 female 24.
Hi again...
The 24 year old female and the 22 year old male work out to be Hazel and Stanley, so that's good.
But BDM NZ gives a date of birth for their older brother George of 13 May 1906. Their father George COOKE, buried at Ellesmere Cemetery, died on 22 July 1932 so the younger George would actually be 26 years and two months. Neither 27 or 25 years old.
Doesn't really help you find Martha or the fourth child. Just adds to the confusion :-)
Regards
Beg
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I don't like to differ but all those childrens dates do work out apart from George and thats only give or take a few months. George COOKE snr was buried at Geraldine. I have the cert to prove it and the issues on the cert match.
I have learn't from past errors that the BDM nz is not always the most reliable source, sometimes we just have to do the hard yards through the fiche.
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Beg
Sorry, have just reread what I posted and it sounded very rude honestly not meant too at all.
I apologise for my tone. Finding all this really really frustrating and doing it for a very elderly unwell Uncle so just want to know and put his mind at rest. I have really come to a stumbling block with this generation. Sorry again. :-[
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Hello Elan,
I normally try to post helpful advice but I've certainly stuffed up on this thread. For some reason I got stuck on the Ellesmere Cemetery burial when you clearly said Geraldine Cemetery in your earlier reply. Sincere apologies.
And your post didn't sound rude at all. To be honest, if you hadn't mentioned it, it would never have crossed my mind.
All I was trying to say was don't take as gospel everything you read on a BDM NZ certificate (which I guess also means the BDM NZ website and the BDM NZ fiches).
And I guess the same goes for parish registers.
Speaking of which, do you know if the 1904 marriage was in a church. If so, have you checked the baptism registers for the 1904-05 birth.
Pretty straightforward if they were Catholic. Just start a request thread for a look-up of the "Catholic Diocese of Christchurch Baptism Index CD - 1840 to 1908".
I'm off to the library this afternoon so will check the Births fiche for a 1904-05 Christchurch-based male COOKE birth. Hopefully there aren't too many.
EDIT:
Back from the library :-)
The only 1904-05 male COOKE birth which appears on the Births fiche but not on the BDM NZ website is one Harry COOKE 1905/2283
The birth was registered in Christchurch in the second quarter (Apr-Jun) of 1905.
Might be worth looking at BDM NZ Deaths - 1974/32352 COOKE, Harry - d.o.b 9 March 1905 - d.o.d 1 Jan 1974 - buried at Wakapuaka Cemetery, Nelson
Nelson Cemetery database
http://www.nelsoncitycouncil.co.nz/cemeteries-database-2/
1974 Probate for a Harry COOKE (May or may not be relevant)
COOKE Harry - Christchurch - Railway Servant 1974
http://archway.archives.govt.nz/ViewFullItem.do?code=21802245
ANOTHER EDIT:
I've just re-read the thread and have realized that, although you didn't mention it, you seem to already know the identities of the four children.
And you clearly stated in your original post that you wanted info on Martha, not the children, so I've been on a bit of a wild goose chase.
Sorry about that. Will step back for a day or two :-)
Regards
Beg
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All good Beg thankyou so much for your help. Didn't know about Harry so that was a good find thanks.
Martha and George married at the Church of the Holy Trinity Avonside.
Would love to know where she went to and what happened to her.
Also having huge trouble finding the marriage for George's parents Henry Cooke (labourer) and Mary Coghlin. Have a BIG BRICK WALL in front of me with that one. Can't find deaths either. I have got in the certs I thought it could of been but all wrong ones.AAHHH ;)
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Also having huge trouble finding the marriage for George's parents Henry Cooke (labourer) and Mary Coghlin. Have a BIG BRICK WALL in front of me with that one. Can't find deaths either. I have got in the certs I thought it could of been but all wrong ones.AAHHH ;)
Henry COOKE thread >
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,599631.0.html
Hi Elan
Have added the link to your earlier "Henry COOKE search" so that if anyone has information or can assist further, then they will be able to see, the "effort" made to date. [This hopefully will prevent duplication of already published Henry COOKE / Mary COGHLIN info in this thread which might otherwise deflect interest from the Martha STAPLETON (COOKE) search. ]
:)
~ Lu
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Hi again...
Mundia (https://www.mundia.com/au/Account/SignIn) has two trees listing Martha STAPLETON, daughter of Harry and Eliza, b.1882 in Christchurch.
One of the trees lists Martha's middle name as Mary and her year of death as 1945. Neither name nor year of death is cited so you might want to contact the researcher for her sources (if any). She lives in NSW. Her contact details are given.
Neither tree mentions the sibling b.1884-85, nor George COOKE's family.
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You need to register with Mundia to view the trees but registration is free. You can also use your ancestry.com username and password if you have one.
The Mundia website itself is very slow because it's still under construction. So be prepared to click and wait.
If, once you've registered, you can't find the tree for Martha Mary STAPLETON 1882-1945 here is the direct link.
http://www.mundia.com/au/Person/4599442/-965039305
Regards
Beg
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BEG! YOU ARE A LEGEND!!!!!!!!!
Yes I am member of Ancestry and have sent a PM to the supplier.
Thankyou so very very much. I know alot of people that will be very interested in Mundia.
Will keep you posted. :) :) :)
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She is NOT the Martha Cooke died 1945 Wellington
One of the trees lists Martha's middle name as Mary and her year of death as 1945.
Hello Elan...
I wouldn't get too excited just yet.
Dollars to donuts if/when you get a reply from the Mundia family tree it will be the Martha COOKE d.1945 that you've already disproved.
I'd be wary of unsourced family trees found on the internet (or anywhere else for that matter).
Regards
Beg
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Oh bless you Beg, gosh you have certainly done alot of work for my family. Have to admitt it is only heresay that's it is NOT Martha died 1945 Wellington.
Going to order the cert now.
Hopefully heresay is wrong.
Have looked at the death on papers past and thought maybe it was her.
Taking the plunge for dear Uncle- hope its right!!!! cross fingers:)
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martha cooke death cert ordered! hoping my gamble pays off. :-\
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Have looked at the death on papers past and thought maybe it was her.
Mmm ... didn't you say Martha STAPLETON was born in 1882 ? This Martha Mary COOKE was aged 57 in 1945 - born circa 1888. The death notice also named her sister (Muriel).
They were the daughters of William Strathallan PADGET and Lillian (nee LINCOLN).
Martha Mary married as "Martha Amelia Mary PADGET" to a Louis F. COOKE in 1913.
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Rats! >:( i should be more vidulent.
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There is a 1922 death for a Harry STAPLETON buried in Sydenham Cemetery, Christchurch. His age at death gives him a birth year of 1858.
He shares the plot with a Fanny STAPLETON.
Thomas Stapleton (36), wife Martha (34), and children Tom (11), Everard (9), Harry (6), Ann (4) and Richard (2) arrived as assisted immigrants in 1865. This does suggest that the 1922 burial is the right one (possibly Fanny is a second wife, though).
Hi again...
Was at the library so checked out the NZ electoral rolls for Christchurch using ancestry
If the Harry STAPLETON (d.1922 buried at Sydenham Cemetery with Fanny STAPLETON d.1936) is your Harry with a second wife then they may be the Harry and Fanny STAPLETON listed in the 1911 and 1914 electoral rolls for Christchurch East. Listed at the same address (325 Gloucester Street) is Tina Stapleton, spinster.
She may be Harry's second daughter b.1884-85.
Or she may be Harry's unmarried sister, born in NZ post-1865 arrival of the STAPLETON family.
One thing in favour of her being Harry's daughter is that a child born in 1884-85 would not appear on the NZ electoral rolls until after 1905-06. Whereas Harry's sister would have been eligible for the electoral roll since 1893. The Tina STAPLETON listed on ancestry appears only on the 1911 and 1914 rolls.
Not sure what happened to her after 1914.
And not sure if Tina is short for Christina or Bettina etc of which there are a few listed on various rolls.
It's just speculation :-)
Regards
Beg
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BEG
You are such a trooper!!!
I believe ( no proof) that Elizabeth/Eliza/Fanny are one of the same. I also wonder if the court case (paperspast - A Strange Suit 5 May 1885 and Civil Case 14 May 1885) was more than met the eye. :-X Maybe abit of skullduggery???
I think that you have found Harry and Eliza's other child born in wedlock. YEEAAHH!!!
According to the NZSG Index 'tina' was born 28 Dec 1886 (which kind of fits in with the dates re paperspast) in CC and may of married in 1915 one Prichard. I so hope your right!!!
THANKYOU!!!
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According to the NZSG Index 'tina' was born 28 Dec 1886
Hello Elan...
The date of birth you found for Tina STAPLETON (28 Dec 1886) pretty much rules her out from being the second child i.e the child born in wedlock.
The "Strange Suit" newspaper article you mention says that Harry and Eliza were married on 1 May 1884. The child born in wedlock is mentioned in the article. The date of the article is 5 May 1885.
So the second child was born sometime between 1 May 1884 and 5 May 1885.
Noticed in the article that Harry and Eliza had moved to Dunedin so the second child may have been born there, not Christchurch.
And that Harry had deserted by September 1884 which may narrow the "birth window" even more, although he may have left before the second child was born so maybe not.
Press, 5 May 1885, Page 3 - A STRANGE SUIT
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0ndb/
Where exactly did you get the 28 Dec 1886 date from. Is it the NZSG Index Ver.5 CD. If so, does it give a source.
Regards
Beg
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I believe ( no proof) that Elizabeth/Eliza/Fanny are one of the same.
According to the Christchurch cemeteries database, Fanny STAPLETON (buried with Harry), was born in Australia and at the time of her death, 1936, had been in NZ for 40 years (arrived c. 1896).
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Bettina STAPLETON m. Arthur Charles PRITCHARD -- 1915
Death ???
1972 - PRITCHARD - Bettina - 81 years (bc 1891)
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Thomas Stapleton (36), wife Martha (34), and children Tom (11), Everard (9), Harry (6), Ann (4) and Richard (2) arrived in 1865.
Hi again,
The following BDM NZ references are found on the BDM NZ Search website
https://www.bdmhistoricalrecords.dia.govt.nz/search/
Tom STAPLETON, son of Thomas and Martha STAPLETON, may be the Tom STAPLETON who married Christina AITKEN in 1880
BDM NZ Marriages - 1880/1449 - Christina AITKEN - Tom STAPLETON
A Tom and Christina STAPLETON share the same plot at Sydenham Cemetery in Christchurch. Tom's burial notes indicate a birth year of 1852 and an arrival in NZ from England in 1864, which is fairly close to the above passenger list found by jorose.
Sydenham Cemetery - Christchurch Cemeteries Database
http://librarydata.christchurch.org.nz/Cemeteries/
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A Thomas and Christina STAPLETON had a daughter Isabella Martha STAPLETON in 1894
BDM NZ Births - 1894/5709 - STAPLETON, Isabella Martha - mother: Christina father: Thomas
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An Isabella Martha STAPLETON married a Frederick Haynes PRATT on 19 Feb 1919
BDM NZ Marriages - 1919/937 - Isabella Martha STAPLETON - Frederick Haynes PRATT
(Entering 19/2/1919 into both the "Search From" and "Search To" boxes on the BDM NZ website will give the date of the event)
The Christchurch Star of Wednesday 19 February 1919 has the following marriage notice...
PRATT - STAPLETON
Today, Frederick Haynes PRATT, a returned Anzac to Ella, daughter of Mr and Mrs T.STAPLETON [...] cousin Chrissie WATKINS, niece Kathleen BIGGS
Scroll halfway down the page of the following link for the marriage notice snippet...
http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~ashleigh/1870-1908/1919.February.Star.Christchurch.Snippets.html
All of the above just to say that Eliza WATKINS and Harry STAPLETON may have had a daughter Chrissie WATKINS. Being Harry's daughter would make Tom and Christina STAPLETON her uncle and aunt and their daughter Isabella Martha STAPLETON (aka the bride Ella) her first cousin.
I'm wondering if the Tina STAPLETON I mentioned in my previous post may have also used the name Chrissie (Christina?) WATKINS.
No proof. Just speculation :-)
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Have you considered starting a "look-up request" thread for the death notice of Harry STAPLETON d.9 Feb 1922 in Christchurch.
Death notices of the time seemed not to be as informative as those today but, short of purchasing the death certificate, it's the only way I can think of which might give a clue as to whether or not he is your Harry. Hopefully the death notice will say something like "son of the late Thomas and Martha".
EDIT:
A possible connection in that Tom and Christina STAPLETON seem to be buried opposite Harry and Fanny STAPLETON at Sydenham Cemetery.
Regards
Beg
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BEG I don't know how to thank you for your continued efforts I really really appreciate it.
BLESS YOU :)
Will get in touch in a few days our puppy was hit by a car this morning, she has a fractured pelvis BUT will hopefully be ok we will know by tomorrow when she HOPEFULLY does her bodily functions successfully over night.
Thankyou so very much
Chrissie
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Hello Elan...
Just wondering if you have any information on Eliza WATKINS, mother of Martha and ?
Age, nationality, religion, parents, siblings etc
Thanks
Beg
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Hi Beg
I haven't looked into that yet,but i have got in Fanny(nee Ward) Stapletons death notice and she is the second wife. They were married in Melbourne in 1895 and had one female issue aged 41 which I guess is the Tina who was quite possibly born in OZ. Still haven't found Marthas sibling,went through all the fiche for a child born under Watkins and Stapleton in that time period but no luck. I will put a new thread up asking for Thomas Stapleton probate,good idea thanks :) :)
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[...] Fanny(nee Ward) Stapletons death notice and she is the second wife.
They were married in Melbourne in 1895 and had one female issue aged 41
Hello Elan,
Victoria BDM has a Harry STAPLETON marrying a Fanny WARD in 1886.
Then in 1887 a Tina STAPLETON is born to Harry and Fanney formerly WARD
Victoria BDM search
https://online.justice.vic.gov.au/bdm/index-search?action=getHistIdxSearchCriteria
So the dates you have are slightly off as I'd tend to believe Victoria BDM.
But their daughter Tina born in 1887 would be the Tina mentioned in the 1911 and 1914 electoral rolls. Wonder what happened to her.
Out of interest, did you get the dates from a death notice (as you said) or a death certificate/printout. If it was a certificate/printout who was the informant.
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Back to the drawing board for Lizzie's second child. Most annoying :-)
Wonder if Chrissie WATKINS is a lead or a red herring.
Regards
Beg
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Hi beg
i got the dates from the death printout that i ordered. The informant was a G Banill the undertaker from Christchurch. Sorry put you crook on Tina DOB she was 45 in 1936 NOT 41. How very odd the dates don't match with Victoria BDM.
EDIT
I have also taken up your suggestions and asked for Thomas Stapletons probate, Harry Stapletons death notice lookup and also asked NZSG bride and groom collection for and marriage info for folio 1432 being Harry and Eliza's wedding 1884
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Mmm ... if the Harry STAPLETON who married Fanny WARD in Victoria 1886 is the former husband of Eliza WATKINS (married 1884), then what became of Eliza ?
Victorian Marriage records (the registry copies of same), contain some excellent information, amongst which is a section entitled "Condition of Parties".
If either or both, bride or groom are widowed, the date of decease of former spouse / spouses, is recorded.
Provision is also made in this section for recording the number of "Children of each former marriage", "Living and Dead".
[Using a credit card, you are able to make an immediate download from the PROV site of a registry copy of a Victorian B, D or M record ... the cost of which is roughly the same ($20 - odd), as a printout record here in NZ. ]
~ Lu
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POST DELETED...talking rubbish as per usual :-)
Sorry
Regards
Beg
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Hi Lucy
If Harry Stapleton marriage to Eliza Watkins was presumably annulled as she was a bigamist would there be any other info on his marriage to Fanny Ward in the PROV as he wasn't divorced or widowed and Fanny was 26 when she married Harry. Do you think its worth a shot.
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Hi Elan
Ooops ... had just been back over the court case details (Eliza suing Thomas Stapleton senior - 1885) when your message came in.
So sorry, the Victorian marriage cert will be of no help ... (if Harry and Eliza's marriage was deemed to be invalid, then of course Harry was free to legally wed Fanny.)
Have you got the death printout for Harry STAPLETON, d. 1922 yet ?
~ Lu
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Hi Lucy
Newbe has very kindly offered to look it up. Will let all know when I do. Exciting stuff! :)
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Hello All! :)
I have had to resort to purchasing Harry Stapleton and Eliza Watkins marriage cert.
Eliza was 21 when marrying, she came from Gloucester UK. Father - Henry, Mother Sarah Price. Henry's occupation is listed as a Collier. They married in Christchurch registery office 1 May 1884. Eliza must of been very young when she married the Mackenzie chap, as she was only 19 when she had Martha.
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Yes, this fits with the newspaper record that says she was 15 in 1879, putting her birth around 1863/4.
freebmd.rootsweb.com shows a marriage in 1860 in Monmouth district for Henry Watkins and Sarah Price.
That would fit with this family in 1871 (think some of the place names are off)
RG10-2599 40/29
Dog Inn, East Dean, Gloucestershire:
Henry Watkins, 35, married, collier, b. Monmouth St. Briavells
Sarah, 30, wife. b. Gloster Pillowell
Mary Ann, 9, dau, b. Gloster Whitecroft
Eliza, 6, dau, b. Gloster Respage (Ruspidge?)
Charles, 3, son, b. dit
Henry, 1, son, b. dit
Another daughter, Alice Watkins, aged 10, b. West Dean, is in the 1871 census with her Price grandparents:
George Price, 64, coal miner, b. West Dean
Eliza, wife, 53, b. Coleford Glos.
Charles, son, 14, coal miner, b. West Dean
Alice Watkins, grand-daughter, 10, b. West Dean
(+ lodgers)
By 1881, Alice is back with her parents, with the addition of a few younger siblings.
Mary Ann (9) and Eliza (6) from the 1871 census
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/X3BC-S6K
Eliza I think is possibly the 15 year old aboard the Hydaspes in 1878, arriving to NZ, listed as a domestic servant from Gloucestershire: https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FSBK-5MX
There are some old messages out on the web about this family. This says Mary Ann married Moses Everett (and this marriage appears in 1878 in NZ)
http://www.forest-of-dean.net/fodmembers/index.php?mode=thread&id=15867
If this is right, then Martha had an aunt and a number of cousins also in NZ. Mary Ann's husband Moses died in 1913 in a work accident which puts them in Addington at the time.
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Thankyou Jorose :)
I think I may have found Eliza married to a Frederick Read with other children and dying in 1928 in Gisbourne. There is a probate at Archives in Wellington so I will put a new post up asking some kind person to help. Hopefully if its the right Eliza there maybe a mention of Martha and her other Stapleton sibling. Cross fingers ;)
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Hello Jorose
Have found on an ancestry site today a marriage cert for Eliza Watkins sister Mary Ann Watkins as you so rightly said marrying one Moses Everett - 14 Sept 1878 Waddington Methodist Church Malvern SI. Have to trust the informant he/she supplied on the marriage cert is correct. ( Given the era strong possibility may not) BUT !
IF So!!
Did Martha know her Aunt ???
Feel like I may be getting closer to this Cooke/Stapleton family!!
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Martha Stapleton headed to Australia it seems with my great uncle. They both knew each other from the Linwood area.
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Hello Stydian
Thankyou for your reply. Can you please tell me more. Where did they go what was his name when and where did she die ANYTHING you can I would really appreciate. My Uncle Marthas grandson is 85 and he has never known anything about her from when she left her children.