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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: momat on Thursday 17 May 12 06:33 BST (UK)
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Hello all,
Wondering what the Place of Birth is on this Census .
? ? ? ? Russia.
Ancestry have it transcribed as Sheermewie ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)
Cheers,
Maureen.
Copyright image removed. You may only post small snippets for deciphering purposes.
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I think it says Skierniewic, meaning Skierniewice, now in Poland but it's in territory that belonged to Russia from 1815 to 1918.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skierniewice
Adrian
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Skierniewic
I think it says Skierniewic, meaning Skierniewice, now in Poland but it's in territory that belonged to Russia from 1815 to 1918.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skierniewice
Adrian
Hi Adrian,
More plausible than Sheermewie .
Cheers.
Maureen
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I don't know how you do it, Adrian. You could decipher a squiggle.
Skierniewice was in the gubernia (governate) of Mazow in Congress Poland, i.e. the Polish area of the Russian Empire, the borders of which were fixed after the Congress of Vienna in 1815. Over 17% of the total population of the gubernia were Jewish; a figure only equalled in one other gubernia.
The surname Diamond is more than likely a simple translation of the Polish word brylant, which was used in the Jewish communities as a patronymic derivative of the surname Bryl (בריל), which itself was a diminutive of the Yiddish forename Ber (בער).
Ber means 'a bear' and is the calque of the Hebrew name Dov, which was the 'secondary' name associated with Issachar.
Kalman is the Yiddish form of the name Kalonymus, which dates back to the pre-Roman period of Jewish history. It is a relatively unusual forename, which will be useful in tracking the family in Polish records.
Unfortunately, I am unable to access any databases at the moment, but I will have a llok this evening.
Justin
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Hi Justin
Thanks for that explanation re the Diamond name.
My Greatgrandmother was a Diamond (maiden name) who stated that she was Polish on the Census.
I have no idea where in Poland she came from and my Greatgrandfather stated he was from Russia on the same census.
He was a Jacobs .
Incidentally the find re "Sheermewie "was another of ancestry's beautiful descriptions!! A real Squiggle.
Not one of my family unfortunately .
Will have a look at what you have offered
SA
Maureen.
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Hello Maureen,
So this Diamond family in Cable Street might not be yours?
Jewish immigrants to the UK appeared to want to differentiate between Russian Poland, i.e. Congress Poland, and the rest of Russia to the east, or more specifically the gubernias of the Russian Pale of Settlement.
Who were your great-grandparents? Did they marry in the UK?
Justin
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Hi Justin,
They are not mine as my lot settled in Hull about 1888.
Abraham Jacobs & Rachel nee Diamond.
They were married when they arrived in U K with my grandmother as a baby and they went on to have three other children in Hull.
I came across this lot on the free Ancestry census search last week and my curiousity got the better of me when I saw the strange place name.
I am stuck in a time warp with my lot as I have been searching for answers for many,many years with very few clues.Just like so many others!!
Names I am researching
Jacobs Russia - Hull Glasgow
Diamond Poland -Hull
Brohm/n /Brown Pikeliai lithuania -Hull -Glasgow
Tatch Kovno- Edinburgh - Glasgow
Renovitzky }
Nouvitky } Souvalki Gubernia
Brin }
Maureen.
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Hello Maureen,
I'm more than willing to help, if I can.
Can you please give me the census details where you have found them? I couldn't find a matching family.
Justin
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Hi Justin,
All in Hull.
1891 Census 120 Temple Court K u H
Rachel is down as ANNIE???
They are there with three daughters .Leah ,Rebecca ,Sophia.
On this Rachel /Annie is stated as Russian !
1901 Census Osborne Street K u H
They are all listed by initials only . A, R, L, R, S, H
1911 Census William street K u H and Rachel is Polish
On this page it is a double entry for the two oldest daughters as both are married and living in own homes.
By 1915 Abraham is in Glasgow ,found him on the Valuation roll ,as he is at the same address on death cert and as there is no other fitting him and apart from his occupation from slipper maker to tailor it fits.
He dies in Glasgow 1923 and a NEW WIFE has appeared on the scene .
Have not found a death cert for Rachel /Annie although there is one in Hull 1913 that could be her.I am more inclined to think she died around 1911 as her second granddaughter is also named Rachel.
Nor can I find a marriage for Abraham to the second wife , listed as Lottie Sinclair in England or Scotland
(I doubt it is Sinclair more likely Sclar ? the image is not ideal ) on Scotlands BMDs
She cannot be found as I have tried everything to trace this lady .
I was searching the other Jacob and Diamond entries to see if I could link anyone else in the East Riding area to them but not having details of Rachel's parents not much luck.
Sorry for the long posting.
Cheers,
Maureen.
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Hello Maureen,
I had written most of a reply to you when the power tripped out in the house!!
I had managed to find the census records; admittedly I was a bit thrown by the different names for Abraham's wife. Are you certain that Annie didn't die in the 1890s, and Abraham remarried a Rachel?
The 1911 including the married daughters under their maiden names is a bit of an oddity.
Do you have Leah's marriage certificate? Did she marry in accordance with Jewish customs and rites? If so, there may be a so-called marriage authorisation, which sould state her place of birth.
Cheers, Justin
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Hi Justin,
I do have a Ketubah for Leah Jacobs and Israel BROHM Hull 1904
I have previously tried to scan it to my PC but it only comes up a blur.
There is nothing on the English page that states where she was born .
The other page is in Hebrew.
We became BROWN some where around 1920
The Annie bit throws me and as far as I know there was no other mystery marriage apart from the Lottie one ,but I have just noticed there is a death in Hull for an Annie Jacobs 1895 and Abraham's next child was born in 1896 I am now wondering if you are on the right track.
Will have to try for the Birth certificate of Sophia Jacobs and the Annie Jacobs death Cert then to disprove this one way or the other.
Cheers, Maureen.
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Just had another look at my data and decided that all three daughters have the same mother as they are all on the same census 1891.
and the birth of the last child Harry in 1893 throws it all out so my previous post would not work in date wise.
I have evidently mistranscribed something on my tree.
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Hello Maureen,
The ketubah is the marriage contract or certificate, and is mostly in Aramaic actually. However, before couples could be officially married by a Rabbi, a marriage authorisation had to be granted by the Chief Rabbi. It is this authorisation that will state the place of birth.
Do you have Leah and Israel's civil certificate, that will tells us exactly where they married?
Interestingly, a database of the Jewish cemetery in Delphi Street includes the burials of an Annie Jacobs and an Annie Rachel Jacobs in the same grave. Unfortunately, there are no further details, except for a mention that the latter death was not officially registered?
Cheers, Justin
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Hello Justin,
Israel & Leah were married in the Osborne Synagogue Hull December 28th 1904.
Both fathers are recorded on this.
Pity that they never recorded the mothers names on these as I don't even know who Israel's mother was.
So I need to find the authorisation then.
All my early searches for a death for Annie/Rachel came up with an entry on Jewgen that states NO BMD entry!!
Several years ago I wrote to the Yorkshire archives to see if they could locate her death and they found nothing. I have searched Scotland for her too.
Just went back to my paper trail and on Leah's death cert in Scotland it states her mother as Annie Rae nee Diamond.Rae being a derivative of Rachel!!
This information was given by Leah's eldest son who would have had the correct data.
On Abrahams Scottish death cert it states first wife as Rachel -------
I will be in UK soon and hope to search the Cemetery in Hull for any clues .
One BIG headache :'( :'(
Cheers,
Maureen.
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I thought you posted "Where is Russia?"
Time to get new glasses.
Exellent work!
Bill B
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Maureen,
Where are you writing from?
The Jewishgen databases are unaccessible at the moment fro some odd reason. The Jewish Online Worldwide Burial Register records burial dates and ages at death for Annie Jacob and Annie Rachel Jacob. Both were too old to be your Annie.
I have written many posts on the subject of marriage authorisations as issued by the Chief Rabbi. To this post
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,428679.msg3340668.html#msg3340668
I attached an explanation and the contact address (on the last page). I believe the fee has now risen to a shocking £20.
You'll also see from my other posts that the MA does not always record the places of birth of the couple. It could, however, provide the breakthrough.
A difficult decision.
Justin
PS How do you know the surnames and hometowns of your Litvak branches?
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Hello Justin,
Sorry I have not replied sooner.
I am in New Zealand.
I only know that Abraham ,Annie/Rachel and Leah were Russian and Polish from the census returns.
They are my mystery.No other clues.
I know that my grandfather Israel was from PIKELIAI from a recently sourced document lodged in the Glasgow Jewish History Centre .I always thought he was from RIGA!
This was a statement made by his eldest daughter from a document that she had.I have not seen this.I am hoping it is in the possession of her son who I will ask when I get to Glasgow. He is not into Computers or Genealogy .
There is nothing to state who Israel's parents were other than his fathers name as Solomon Brohm on his Marriage and Death certs.
Neither is there anything on his brothers death cert in Glasgow 1962 just a blank space!
I am glad that he did not change to Brown until they arrived in Glasgow as I have so many variations on BROHM.
There is even some thoughts in the family that his name was originally SCHWARTS.
All possible as Brown in Russian and German.
It's a wonder that I know who I am :) :) :)
Cheers,
Maureen.
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Justin and Maureen,
Sorry to butt in and revive what looks like a conversation you all had more than a year ago, but.... I may have just hit paydirt! This may not be Maureen's ancestors but they are definitely mine. Amazing me stumbling upon you chatting about my great-grandfather Kalmen Diamond! I've been looking for this information for going on 10 years now. When my grandfather Aaron Diamond married my Catholic grandmother in Louisiana, his Orthodox Jewish family in London declared him dead and cut off all contact. Aaron never talked about his family, and we had almost nothing to to go on. I've been putting the pieces together and then WHAM, I found this document and it all fell together. All, except the name of the town in Russia where they came from. We knew they were from the Warsaw area, just didn't know where. But now, Justin, I'm wondering if I can enlist the help you were about to offer Maureen in deciphering how to search for records of Kalmen Diamond and family in Skierniewice? I would greatly appreciate any pointers to information. Thanks in advance!!
Mark Diamond
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Hello Mark,
Welcome to RootsChat!
I'm afraid this is a rather brief response that we leave you with many questions.
The database I was trying to access for Maureen is the one generated under the Jewish Records Indexing - Poland project hosted on by JewishGen.org
The database is far from complete but includes the following records from Skierniewice:
Kalman Diament married Szejwa (Shey-va) Pulman in 1887.
Births of:
Pincus Szama (Shama) Diamant registered in 1888
Chinda Diament registered in 1890
Josek (Yiddish version of Joseph) Diament and Abram Diament registered in 1896
Later birth records (including Aaron's) are held in the Polish archives and the local registry office.
I'll give you more guidance in the next few days.
All the best, Justin
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Justin, all I can say is Blimey and THANK YOU!!!! There is now NO doubt that this is in fact my long lost family. I say that for this reason: I've been pouring through a letter written by a elderly relative 10 years ago who names many names she was trying to recall from the distant past. I've found a few of these successfully on Free BMD, but she mentioned that somewhere in our ancestry there was a Shana Pullman but she didn't know who this could be. I could NEVER find anything on this. Then you mentioned Szejwa (Shey-va) Pulman !!!! WOW! REALLY BIG WOW! We've always heard that Kalmen's wife was named Sarah, but didn't know a maiden name. Not too hard to figure now, that Szejwa IS Sarah!! This is just so incredible I can't believe it! My dad is now 87, has cancer, and I"m racing now to fill the details that even he doesn't know about his father Aaron's origins. He didn't still had his doubts when I showed him the Census record last night, as there are some conflicts with what he had been told and has believed all his life. One key conflict/question that I would LOVE to find out is if Rose and Jacob were born in Skierniewice, or in London. My Dad was always told that Aaron was the last to be born in Russia/Poland and the family moved when Aaron was just a few months old. But I've never been able to find a British birth certificate on Rose and Jacob. And Kalmen's census record says they were all born in Russia. Would be great to find this out! Can you continue to assist me, and if so, how can I repay you? !! Thanks again Justin!
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Hi Mark
You probably already have this, but when Aaron Diamond stowed away on the Lancastrian to New York in 1917 (and was presumably discovered, given that he was added to the passenger list, albeit marked as a stowaway) his birthplace was given as Warsaw, Poland. Next of kin in England was father Colman Diamond of 194 St George St, London. Aaron was said to be travelling to join his brother Aby Diamond, Boss, Woodbine, N.J.
The brother's details look like a good match for the WW1 Draft Registration Card (dated 6/4/17) of Abey Diamond born March 9, 1895 "Warsaw, Poland, Russia". Home address in 1917 was 2032 N. Franklin, Phila, Pa. He was single, and employed in a clothing factory by the Woodbine Clothing Co of Woodbine, N.J.
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Hello Justin and Mark,
Pleased that my query helped Mark .
Sadly nothing for me as I am still in the dark!!
Just goes to show that it pays to keep searching as who knows what may come up.
My search in the Hull Cemetries last year gave me no more clues and I still think that the unregistered death is my Greatgrandmother.
I did bring back 3 booklets (thanks to a second cousin) on the Monumental Inscriptions regarding the Jewish Cemetries in Hull.
DELHI Street, MARFLEET Road and ELLA / HESSLE Street.
If anyone needs data from there I can check it .
Maureen.
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To AVM228,
Blimey AGAIN!! Yes, we knew all that you mentioned in your first paragraph because of the Ellis Island record on Aaron. The stowaway story is well know in my family, although we don't really know why. He was given the option to join the U.S. Cavalry for two years or be deported. Needless to say, he chose the Cavalry after which he applied for and got U.S. Citizenship. What was lost on us was Aby Diamond, as no one in the family knew who this was. We were aware, however that he joined his brother in the U.S., but his brother had changed his name to Sam Gold. No one knew his real name and this really complicated the search. Sam's birthdate that he listed on his passport application in 1922 was March 10, 1895, which of course now jives nearly perfectly with what you found on "Abey" Diamond's WW1 Draft card. The two brothers made their living as tailors in the U.S., and lived in Philidelphia which also lines up with his draft card reporting. The details are filling in REALLY QUICKLY, thanks to you and Justin, so I can't thank you enough!! This has been decades in the making, and the gating item was the release of the 1911 England Census. So referring to that Census, there is an Abraham, age 16, and a Joseph, age 18 listed. I'm presuming Abey would be Abraham in this case? Do you know Abey to be a nickname for Abraham? Strange because on the census, Abraham is listed as a bootmaker while Joseph is listed as a tailor. I suppose after age 16, Abraham could have decided to be a tailor instead. Again, would Abey most likely be Abraham?
Thanks again!!
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Hi Mark,
I'm alwasy happy to help others with their Jewish genealogy, especially those that, like me, descend from a mixed marriage.
Aby or Abe would be common pet forms for Abraham in the US.
Are you able to open this webpage http://jri-poland.org/town/skierniewice.htm (http://jri-poland.org/town/skierniewice.htm) ?
It takes you to the JRI-Poland page for Skierniewice, and indicates what records are available and in which archives.
I suggest your best bet at this stage, to get things moving quickly, is to drop a line to the Skierniewice Town Leader, Joe Ross (joeross1220 [at] gmail [dot] com]. He will be ale to tell you how to go about obtaining records from Polish archives. More importantly, he may have acess to some records that have not been made available online yet.
If Aron's parents really did emigrate when he was only a few months old, it is entirely possible that his birth was never registered in Russia. Although I have just found a birth registration for Aron Josif Dymand in Lodz (close to Skierniewice) in 1901.
It's hard to say definitively, whether Rose and Jacob were born in Russia or England. The information on 1911 census was probably provided by word of mouth and Klaman may have been unable to read English at that stage. So, it is possible that someone assumed that the whole family had been born in Russia. Have you checked for spelling variations on Diamond? Unfortunately, it was a pretty common surname in London's East End at the turn of the century.
More later.
Take care, Justin
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Thanks for the response Justin! I can access the Skierniewice website and so I'll get to work on this as well as dash off a note to Joe Ross. Thanks greatly for this pointers.
Insofar as the birth locations of Rose and Jacob, the 1911 Census is signed by Kalmen Diamond and that handwriting appears to be the same as the other filled out information. I think I read somewhere that this was as intended, the census information was filled out by the families themselves and not the census takers. What do you think? And what's the likelyhood, if Kalmen was not able to read or write English, that someone would have actually signed the census form for him?
Also, what are your guesses/thoughts about what Rose's true given Jewish name would have been (I'm assuming not Rose)?
Lastly, in a previous post, you mentioned "registered" as opposed to "birth (i.e.,Pincus Diamant registered in 1888). Can I assume registered means birth? If so, I'm wondering why brothers Josek and Abram were registered in the same year, 1896, considering the census shows them 2 years apart? Were births not "registered" immediately as they happened?
Thanks!
Mark
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Hi Mark,
I've done a bit more digging and found some interesting morsels.
Colman Diamond was buried in the Enfield Jewish Cemetery, Carterhatch Lane, Enfield (north London) on 28th August 1940 (plot no. C-6-20)
Sarah Diamond was buried next to him in plot no. C-6-21 on 22nd January 1956.
Their gravestones may well bear Hebrew inscriptions which would reveal their fathers' forenames.
Shayeh Pulman (groom) married Khayeh Diament (bride) in Skierniewice in 1889.
The 1911 census return states 'Kalman Diamond his mark'. This indicates that he was not able to write in English, and someone else defienitely filled out the form for him. This would have been very common for immigrant families.
Rose would have been Rosa/Roza most likely; a very common Yiddish name. Furthermore, Jacob would have been known as Yankel.
Births in the Jewish communities of Russia were often registered quite some time (even years) after the actual event.
By the way, Szejwa (pronounced Sheyva) is a shortened form of Bas-Sheyva.
Justin
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Insofar as the birth locations of Rose and Jacob, the 1911 Census is signed by Kalmen Diamond and that handwriting appears to be the same as the other filled out information. I think I read somewhere that this was as intended, the census information was filled out by the families themselves and not the census takers. What do you think? And what's the likelyhood, if Kalmen was not able to read or write English, that someone would have actually signed the census form for him?
You're right as to the principle that the household schedule was to be completed by the householder and then collected by the enumerator. This was the case for all English censuses, though 1911 is the first for which the householders' schedules survive - in older censuses we see only the summary sheets produced afterwards by the enumerator.
However, some householders were not able to complete the schedules themselves (illiteracy, or lack of English, being obvious possible reasons). Have a look to see whether Kalmen's name has the words "his mark" following it. In such a case he would have made his mark (instead of a signature) with an X, and the writing (including his name in longhand) would have been completed by someone else. This could be another household member, a literate neighbour, or possibly the enumerator.
(Sorry - just realised I've duplicated that thought process with Justin!).
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No apologies necessary AVM288, I appreciate all the inputs I can get. And yes, there is what looked to me like an "f" between "his" and "mark" on the document, but I didn't know what this was or meant. Now I can see clearly that it is an X somewhat angled backwards. Regardless, and as you and Justin pointed out, now I know that "his mark" means the handwriting on the document was not my great-grandfathers.
And Justin, yes that's extremely useful information on the burials of Colman and Sarah. I did see the record of a Colman Diamond in 1940, but didn't order the death certificate because of my past bad luck in spending money and coming up wrong. The fact that Sarah is next to him clinches this. Where did you get the burial plot information? Would there be any useful information on the death certificates, were I to order them now?
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Justin, I just noticed something. In your last post you stated:
Shayeh Pulman (groom) married Khayeh Diament (bride) in Skierniewice in 1889.
But in a previous post you stated:
Kalman Diament married Szejwa (Shey-va) Pulman in 1887.
Did these pieces of info come from different sources? I'm wondering why the difference?
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Hi Mark,
Both marriage records come from the same database; and they are two different couples! It would seem possible, if not likely, that Kalman had a sister named Khayeh who married Sheyva's brother Shayeh.
Multiple marriages between two families was commonplace; in my own family there were four marriages between members of two families.
I can't see that the death certificates would provide any essential information. I'd be far more interested in getting photos of their gravestones.
Justin
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Whoa! How would one go about doing that? I'm no where near Enfield Cemetary nor do I plan to be anytime soon. I'm located in southern California.
Mark
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Hi Mark,
This is a site for Enfield Cemetery
See if they can help
http://www.haringey.gov.uk/index/community_and_leisure/bdm/crematoriums_and_cemetries/cemeteries-crematorium.htm
Maureen.
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Hi Mark,
It could be easier than you think. Take a look at this http://genpals.co.uk/blog/headstone-photos-jewish-cemeteries/ (http://genpals.co.uk/blog/headstone-photos-jewish-cemeteries/)
Kalman/Colman and Sarah are buried in the first one on the list, the Adath Yisroel Cemetery in Enfield.
Justin
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That's just Awesome, and you guys are Awesome for the wealth of information you've given me! I can't thank you enough!
BTW, Justin, can you tell me where you obtained the burial information? I haven't been able to locate this myself.
Mark
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The burial info comes from one of JewishGen's databases.
Justin
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Ok thanks. I guess it's about time I subscribe myself. :)
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You need no subscription.
Just join !
They have a wealth of information.
Maureen.
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Justin, great news! I now have photos of Colman and Sarah's headstones, courtesy of Ken Bolton of Genpals. Great lead you provided, so thanks again. The inscriptions are all in Hebrew so I"m in the process of getting them translated.
One thing though: the records for Skierniewice lists the marriage of Colman (Kalman) and Sarah and the birth of most of the kids, but not Colman and Sarah's births. I expanded the search at JRI-Poland to all of Poland, but still came up zilch. Which got me to thinking that perhaps they were born elsewhere. Then I ran across this: the U. S. Naturalization application for one of the kids, Abram aka Sam Gold (born around 1895 or 1896). He states on the app that he was born in Soroki, Russia, which looks to be in present day Maldova. First I've heard of this, and I don't think he could have just pulled this out of the air, so maybe there's something to it. Which then got me thinking that this might be where Kalman and Sarah are originally from. Not sure if the headstone inscriptions would indicate this or not, but regardless, is there a way to search for records in Soroki (seems to also be spelled Soroka) similar to JRI-Poland?
thx,
Mark
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Hi Mark,
That's great news. If you email the photos of the headstones to me, I can read the inscriptions.
I'll send my email address by PM
The family may have have originated in Skierniewice, but I would doubt that they came from so far east. Can you send me the image of the naturalisation application?
This is getting exciting.
Justin