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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Buckinghamshire => England => Buckinghamshire Lookup Requests => Topic started by: Elliefantasy on Wednesday 16 May 12 21:08 BST (UK)
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If anyone could help I am very stuck with James Perrin.
1881 census shows him married to a Harriet (who I know to be a Beasley) in Shirbourn which is in Oxfordshire. I have found a birth record for a James Perrin in Henley in 1843 but on the 1881 census, he is listed as being born in 1848 in Hambleden which was a Bucks town at that time. The record is a copy of a handwritten record and has no other information. Harriet was from Stoke Talmage in Oxfordshire.
I have found a James Perrin aged 9 in Henley Union Workhouse Henley on Thames in the 1861 census, birth around 1852. There is are a few perrins in the workshouse, a T Perrin there who is 13 (there is a thomas perrin in there in the 1851 census aged 2 along with an Ann Perrin aged 4 and an Elizabeth Perrin aged 29)
If anyone has any records about James (his marriage certificate to Harriet Beasley or a birth certificate for James or his eldest son Aubrey), or about the Perrin's in the Henley Union Workhouse I would be very grateful for the information, i have hit a real blank with this branch.
Thanks
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1881 census puts his birth at 1850
1891 at 1848
1901 at 1850
1911 at 1849
all at Hambledon
Suz
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Thanks very much, but i've found those records. Its the census's for 1871 1861 or 1851 I need definate confirmation of. Did you find anything on those?
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I just thought it may help if anyone doing look ups knew the variation in age. You had stated 1881 census gave y.o.b.as 1848 -where it gives it at 1850????
How do you know Harriet's maiden name was Beesley?
I cannot find a marriage registration -or a birth registration for Aubrey J ??
I was wondering if maybe james perrin changed his surname??
Suz
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I don't suppose he is Oliver J is he? There is a birth Henley (right district) Oliver John Sep 1872.
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Nope don't think he is Oliver disregard that.
There is an Aubrey John Perrin marries Alice Eliza Jane Ticehurst in Chichester district 1898. His birth is Wallingford Oxon 1872.
Just noticed their first two children were born in India. Interesting.
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I confirmed Harriets name on their youngest son's birth cert. James birth year changes on alll the census's so its hard to tell. Ideally I would like to find a parish record but the workhouse element might make that difficult to find.
Aubrey is James's eldest son, i have his marriage and children (inc the ones born in India but no birth record.
Oliver isnt the same person as he appears on census's where i have James.
Thanks for checking. Its unfortunate that the same records keep coming up but nothing new can be found.
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Know what you mean about the same records coming up.
Records for the workhouse are held at Oxfordshire Record Office St Luke's Church Temple Road Cowley Oxford OX4 2EX. They include guardians minutes 1835-1928 but whether any mention of Perrin one can't say.
How do you know it is James Perrin by the way as the census I looked at only had initial J :-\
Or are you assuming that it is because he isn't anywhere else!
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Can't see Harriet in 1871 either wonder where she was at?
By the last census calculations they should have been married by then.
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Hi Elliefantasy,
Sorry to see that you have not been able to find anything further back on your James Perrin
have added the link from your previous post as not to duplicate any info.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,515296.msg3716695.html
Obviously you haven't found James' marriage to Harriet either
I have just found this it may just be a co-incidence but I'm posting info. to see what you
and everyone else thinks especially as we are having trouble finding James Perrin before 1881c
Completely the wrong surname marriage & earlier censuses for James BUT christian names, date & pob same ???
Jun 1870 Thame
Harriet BEESLEY
Names on same page
James Toovey RENDALL
1871 RG10; Piece: 1428; Folio: 53; Page: 34
Britwell Rd., Watlington Oxfordshire
James T Randall 23 (1848) Hambledon Buckingham Ag Labourer
Harriet Randall 23 (1848) Stoke Talmage
1861 RG 9; Piece: 1007; Folio: 29; Page: 10
Frederick Randle (Randall) 46 Stewkley Bucks Straw Dealer
Hannah 41 Wing
George 16
JAMES 13 Buckingham
William 11
Henry 8
Ann 2
John 3 months
James not on census with Frederick & Hannah could he be transcribed as dau Jane ???
1851 HO107; Piece: 1756; Folio: 325; Page: 26
Frederic Randall 32 Wing Straw Dealer
Hannah 32 Skewley
Sarah R 8
George 6
Jane 4
William 2
Could this be him pob Henley
1851 HO107; Piece: 1725; Folio: 218; Page: 6 – Henley Workhouse
James T RANDALL 1848 Henley Pauper
Sorry couldn’t find a James Toovey Randell b1848 Hambledon on 1861 census but there's this entry ???
1861 RG 9; Piece: 32; Folio: 20; Page: 48
Francis Whyte 28 Dublin Ireland
Jane Whyte 30 Hambledon
James Toovey son-in-law 10 (1851) Hambledon
This looks as if it could be Harriet with her parents
1851 HO107; Piece: 1726; Folio: 90; Page: 3
James Beisley 33 Farm Lab.
Mary 35 Watlington Oxon
Sarah Ann 14
Theodosia 13
Charlot 10
John 8
HARRIET 6 Stoke Talmage
James 3
Jane 1
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Hi again Elliefantasy - what were your thoughts on the 1870 marriage entry and the 1871 census
Public Tree on Ancestry has James Randle b1848 father Frederick mother Hannah marrying Sarah Ann Brand 16 May 1868 All Saints Wing (details from Buckingham Parish Records) they also say possible error on 1851 census James shown as Jane dau
So possibly the James T Randell Pauper on 1851 census could the James Toovey Randell that marries 1870 ??? Haven't found a birth entry for James Toovey Rendall/Randall yet or James on the 1861 census ???
The only way to find out if there's a father’s name is to check the marriage certificate
Have amended my other post with census info for James with parents Frederick & Hannah :)
If this is your James Perrin b1848 Hambledon in 1851c, 1870 & 1871c why the change of surname after 1871c ???
Will have a look again later to see if I can trace this James Toovey Rendall/Randall on any other censuses after 1871
mmm…. this looks to be the death entry for James & Harriet’s son Aubrey
I wonder what the initial ‘R’ stands for could it possibly be Randall????
Aubery J R Perrin b1872 died age 80
Jun 1952 Chichester Sussex vol 5H page 443
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mmm…. this looks to be the death entry for James & Harriet’s son Aubrey
I wonder what the initial ‘R’ stands for could it possibly be Randall ????
Aubery J R Perrin b1872 died age 80
Jun 1952 Chichester Sussex vol 5H page 443
Hooray I think I have got the answer their surname was RANDAL :)
As to why the name change that I can't answer ??? James & Harriet’s dau Margaret Ellen birth entry Henley 1874 has surname Perrin that possibly narrows the name change between 1872 - 1874 (Aubery John Randal b1871 Henley - Margaret Ellen Perrin b1874 Henley)
Death Certificate dated 12/4/1952 address 104 Parklands Road Chichester
Aubery John Randal Perrin age 80 retired postman
cause of death Broncho Pneumonia & Myocardial degeneration
informant son L F Perrin
Aubery John Randal
Birth abt 1871 Age at enlistment: 44
Document Year: 1915
Reg. No. 8536 Reg Name: Royal Flying Corps
Number of images: 3
Address 137 St Pancras Chichester occ Postman
Served before Yes - 3105 Rgt Royal Sussex date of Discharge 27/1/10
Next of Kin wife Alice Eliza Jane PERRIN alias RANDAL
Married 12/12/98 Chichester Alice Eliza Jane mn Ticehurst
children named as
Joyce Adelaide 9/5/04 Banikher (India)
Florence Rose 20/5/06 Chichester
Irene Ethel 22/7/13
Harold Charles 22/7/13
Leslie Frank 8/12/14
This must be his birth registration
Aubery John Randal
Sep 1871 Henley Buckinghamshire, Berkshire, Oxfordshire
Volume: 3a Page 582
and the marriage details I posted must be for his parents - here it is again with vol/page numbers
Jun 1870 Thame vol 3a page 796
Harriet BEESLEY
Names on same page
James Toovey RENDALL
so this must be them on 1871 census :)
1871 RG10; Piece: 1428; Folio: 53; Page: 34
Britwell Rd., Watlington Oxfordshire
James T Randall 23 (1848) Hambledon Buckingham Ag Labourer
Harriet Randall 23 (1848) Stoke Talmage
James marriage certificate hopefully will give you his father or perhaps mother's name and hopefully you can find the correct James on earlier censuses
I haven't found James Toovey Randell's birth entry but who knows what name was used ??? There are these James Randall 1846 Berkhamstead,1846 Bicester, James Randall 1844 Henley &
James Randall 1852 Wycombe
At least you know have James' marriage & his son Aubrey's birth entries - if you do purchase them please come back and let us know what they say :)
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Wow I am so impressed you found all that *round of applause*
Maybe he was a double barrelled surname (or triple!) and changed from one to the other.
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Just a thought and maybe a possibility for James' I wonder if his mother's maiden name was Toovey
Jem Toovey christened 24 Nov 1850 Hambleden Buckingham
Mother Jane Toovey (source family search)
Jim Toovey Mar 1851 Henley vol 16 page 85
and this could be Jane & James (Jim) on the census ???
Although haven't located a marriage for a Frances Whyte to Jane Toovey :( ::)
1861 RG 9; Piece: 32; Folio: 20; Page: 48
Francis Whyte 28 Dublin Ireland
Jane Whyte 30 (1831) Hambledon
James Toovey son-in-law 10 (1851) Hambledon
and Jane's baptism
Jane Toovey christened 29 Jul 1829 Hambleden Buckingham parents William & Lucy
or both parents have died and he's in the Henley Workhouse with pob given as Henley
1851 HO107; Piece: 1725; Folio: 218; Page: 6 – Henley Workhouse
James T RANDALL 1848 Pauper
Running out of ideas now :'( so will leave it with you
As previously mentioned hopefully the marriage certificate of James Toovey Rendall may hold the missing key
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I can confirm the baptism for Harriet Beisley in Stoke Talmage. 7 Jan 1845. Born Dec 9th. To James & Mary. Labourer.
Plus siblings, James, Jane & Elizabeth and the others mentioned in 1851 Census. (Surname variations apply - Beesley, etc.)
Marriage - James Beisley(b.) to Mary WAITE(sp.). 12 Dec 1835. With parents consent. Witnesses - Thomas Tredwell, Elizabeth Beisley & James(x)Jones.
Steve. :)
From OxFHS - Stoke Talmage Transcripts CD.
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Sorry all, I thought I had posted a reply thursday but apparantly not. Thank you so much for all your help, its such a great leap forwards, I now just have to tell my mum that she isn't technically a Perrin!
I had a dig and there does seem to be a completely random surname change after Aubrey is born but before Margarets birth from Randall in its many spellings to Perrin.
In 1851 there is a James T Randall aged 3 and an Elizabeth Randall aged 27. Elizabeth was a servant, and is unmarried, James birth place is listed as Henley, Oxon so I am guessing that he might have been born in the workhouse and they haven't managed to get out yet and that is where the record will be. I can ask for that as a search from Oxfordshire Records if I can't get there. I could probably get the marriage certificate for James but I don't know if he would know who his father is to put it down. I can't find him in 1861 and somehow he has to end up with Harriett in or near Stoke Talmage so I don't think he would have gone outside of Oxfordshire. I did wonder if his father is a Perrin and that is why he eventually picked that name, it would be interesting to know why he waited to change it until after Aubrey was born.
It is also very very strange that Aubrey uses the Randal surname to register in the army with in 1915, but if he is down as Aubrey John Randal Perrin then he might be using both names. If you look at the record, Alice's name is put as Alice Eliza Jane Perrin alias Randal
I have had a little rummage for Elizabeth but can't seem to pin her down. I think I might leave her for a little while so I can concentrate on this little mystery. Hopefully there might be some details in the Workhouse records.
I have labelled this as completed now. Thanks again for everyones help, its nice to put one mystery to bed even if it opens up another. ;D
Elliefantasy
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Hi
this could be the basis for the name change
Henley marriage 1853 on same page we have
William Perrin
Elizabeth Randall vol 3a page 603
a couple of William Perrin deaths in Henley
one in late 1853 and one in 1863
If so I wonder if this is Elizabeth in 1871...
a marriage in Henley 1868 of Elizabeth Perrin possible spouse on same page is John Blake ...
1871 census RG10/1427 F27 P9
John Blake hd m 58 ag lab b Grays Oxon
Elizabeth Blake wi m 44 b Hambledon Buck.
Frederick Blake son u 16 ag lab b Nuffield Oxon
Tazzie
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In 1851 there is a James T Randall aged 3 and an Elizabeth Randall aged 27.
Elizabeth was a servant, and is unmarried, James birth place is listed as Henley, Oxon so I am guessing that he might have been born in the workhouse and they haven't managed to get out yet and that is where the record will be
I have had a little rummage for Elizabeth but can't seem to pin her down. I think I might leave her for a little while so I can concentrate on this little mystery. Hopefully there might be some details in the Workhouse records.
possibly James' christening
James Randall christened 11 Jun 1848 Hambleden Buckingham
mother Elisabeth Randall
Hambleden is a small village and civil parish within Wycombe district in the south of Buckinghamshire. It is about four miles west of Marlow, and about three miles north east of Henley on Thames in Oxfordshire.
Couldn't find a birth entry Jun qtr. 1848 Wycombe or Henley ???
for info. this looks to be Elizabeth in 1841
HO107; Piece: 52; Book: 7; Civil Parish: Hambledon Bucks ED: 10; Folio: 6; Page: 6;
Elizabeth Randall 15 (1826)
I could probably get the marriage certificate for James but I don't know if he would know who his father is to put it down
Even though the marriage certificate may not give his father’s name there may be a possibility that one of the witnesses may hold a clue it could be a family member - perhaps his mother :-\
As to his middle name TOOVEY another mystery - perhaps this was his father's surname
this could be the basis for the name change
Henley marriage 1853 on same page we have William Perrin Elizabeth Randall vol 3a page 603
1871 census RG10/1427 F27 P9
John Blake hd m 58 ag lab b Grays Oxon
Elizabeth Blake wi m 44 b Hambledon Buck.
Frederick Blake son u 16 ag lab b Nuffield Oxon
1853 marriage Elizabeth Randall to William Perrin posted by Tazzie looks interesting and
1868 marriage Elizabeth Perrin to John Blake
1861 RG 9; Piece: 884; Folio: 20; Page: 9 - Henley Watlington Oxford
Elizabeth Perrin Servant 38 (1823) Hambledon Nurse( marital status looks to be Mar)
So perhaps the J Perrin age 9 in Henley Work house in 1861 census you found is the same person as James T Randall age 3 in Henley Work house in 1851
1851 HO107; Piece: 1725; Folio: 221; Page: 12 & 1861c Henley Union Workhouse
there's a William Perren 58 Ag Lab. & W Perrin Mar 68 Henley
May be just a coincidence the only reason I’m posting this info. middle name of William but wrong pob for Elizabeth and noted as um :-\
1861 RG 9; Piece: 883; Folio: 83; Page: 2 – Parsonage Nuffield Oxfordshire
William TOOVEY Hopkins 1794 Cholsey Berkshire Rector of Nuffield
Elizabeth Perrin house servant age 24 Upton Berkshire ???
So perhaps the J Perrin age 9 in Henley Work house in 1861 census you found is the same person as James T Randall age 3 in Henley Work house in 1851
Even though you have marked this as completed please do come back and let us all know how you get on - Good Luck :)
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Hi
The Frederick "Blake" of 1871 census was infact Frederick Perrin b Henley reg district 1855 as seen here in 1881
RG11/1490 F 72 P5
John Blake hd m 69 farm lab Rotherford Grays Oxon
Elizabeth Blake wi m 51 Hambledon Bucks
Frederick Perrin step son u 24 Farm Lab Wattlington Oxon
His birth cert would tie in Elizabeth as being the right one
Tazzie
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Hi Elliefantasy - Do you have access to Ancestry?
I checked the pages of AJR Army Record to check whether I missed anything
It seems that Aubrey appears also as James Randal (Perrin) that explains why you couldn’t find Aubery John Perrin on the 1891 census he’s named James Perrin ::)
1891 RG12; Piece: 3448; Folio: 157; Page: 10
The Barracks Fulwood Preston Lancashire
James Perine (Perrin)age 20 Watlington Oxford Private
Image 21 Miltary History Sheet
Military History Sheet shows
Home 28/1/89 – 27/12/98, India 28/12/98 - 21/4/05, Home 22/04/05 – 27/1/10
Name & address of Next of Kin
Father James } Perrin Sherbourne 3 rd?
Mother Jane } Watlington Oxon
The above has been crossed through and underneath written
Wife Alice with the R sussex Regt.
further down the page marriage details
Alice Eliza Jane Ticehurst 12 Dec 1898 Chichester wits William & Lucy Ticehurst
children
William Aubrey b7/12/99 Amristar E I bapt 17/12/99 Amritsar
Doris Kathleen b3/11/00 Mur?? E.I bapt 20/11/00
Alice May b15/5/02 Mur?? E.I. 15/5/02
Joyce Adelaide b9/5/04 Ranikhel? 22/5/04
Florence Rose b20/5/06 Chichester 17/06/06
Gladys Nellie 10/7/08 Chichester 2/8/08
Aubery John Randal
Birth abt 1871 Age at enlistment: 44
Document Year: 1915
Reg. No. 8536 Reg Name: Royal Flying Corps
Number of images: 3
Address 137 St Pancras Chichester occ Postman
Served before Yes - 3105 Rgt Royal Sussex
date of Discharge 27/1/10
Images 1 – 3
Aubery John Randel
Image 4
Short Service James Perrin No 3015 Royal Sussex Regt. Of
Watlington Oxfordshire 18 years 1 month occ. Groom
Q10 Do you belong to HMArmy etc… Yes 4 Bn Oxford Lt. Inftry
Q11 Have you served in “” etc… Yes as above
Joined Chichester on 30th January 1889
Image 5
Age 18yrs 1mth, Ht 5 feet 4 Ľ inches, Eyes Brown hair Dark Brown
Tattoo mark dot back of left forearm & ring 3rd finger left hand Scar back of left forearm
Cert. of Primary Military Examination fit for service in Royal Sussex Reg. 30 Jan 1889
Image 6
Death cert. Aubery John Randel Perrin
Image 7 & 8
Letter from Mr T A Felton Registrar amt’s due to me for the certificate overleaf for AJRP also reimbursement for cert. of Identity
Image 9, 10 & 11
Perrin A J R Chelsea Number 89211/c (revision renewals of Pension)
Images 12 & 13
Medical History James Perrin birth place Watlington Oxford trade groom
Enlisted 29/1/1881 Royal Sussex Regt No. 3105
Image 14, 15 & 16
James Perrin (18/11/99) Station or Troop Ship (long list)
Starts in Chichester 28/1/89, Preston 18/2/89 etc.. Dublin 21/4/91 admitted to hosp 17/11/91 dis. 8/12/91 Rheumatism, Muscular lots more ….. Amritsar 16/11/99
Image 17 & 18
James Perrin different list of station or troop ship
Sialkot 11/12/00 – 16/1/02 hospital 27/1/1902 dis 7/2/1902,Fort Lahore 18/2/02, Ranikhel 23/3/03, Ranikhet 6/3/04 hosp 18/6/04 dis 6/7/04, Chichester 22/4/05 hosp 20/5/06 dis 26/5/06
Image 19
James Perrin Statement of Services of No.3105
Rl Sussex 1st Bn 1/4/04, Permt Staff 3rd Bn transferred rank Sergt 22/4/05
“ “ discharged 27/1/1910
“The termination of his second period of engagement"
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Ladyhawke - yes I have just renewed my ancestry subscription so I will check this out for Aubrey - I only wish he was consistent with his names.
Tazzie - Thanks for that, It does look like Elizabeth might have married and to a Perrin. It is curious though that James swops his surnames about, if William Perrin had died then he might have gone back to Randall but then why change back again later after going to the bother of registering one child? Not sure if the Rector is his father though, I will need to look at the dates but it might require the aquisition of proper records to pick through all of this.
Will post an update when I have sorted it all through. Finding it hard to get the time as I have a 10 week old daughter to sort out and she's not that bothered about family history!
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Hi to anyone still following this.
I've had to change my name as I coudn't find my original login info.
Elizabeth Randall was born in Hambledon Bucks in 1823 and had 2 illegitemate children. Mary in 1845 who died at age 2 and James in 1848. James has no father on his birth certificate.
Elizabeth and James end up in the Henley workhouse in 1851 where she meets William Perrin.
They get married in 1853, they also have another son Thomas in 1852, and then have Fredrick in 1857.
In 1861 census, Elizabeth is a live-in servant but William and the boys are in the workhouse. They have Thomas's and James's ages mixed up which is why I was having trouble with him.
William dies in 1863 and Elizabeth marries John Blake in 1868. In the 1871 census she is living with John and Fredrick (16) in Nuffied Oxfordshire until her death in 1886.
James hops back to being a Randall for the 1871 census where he is found in Watlington with his wife Harriet and Aubrey. But then from the 1881 census onwards he records himself as James Perrin consitently until his death in 1918.
Thank you to everyone who found details for me, this has been an exciting search. I also went back to the Buckingham records and found that Elizabeth had lost nearly all her family in her early teenage years which explains why she is alone in 1845. I have also found a potential link to the father, there is a James Toovey in Watlington who is the right age, who marries someone else but is jailed for 30 days just after James's birth for leaving his wife. The whole story is quite interesting so I am picking up the research again to actually write a fictional story based on the facts I have.
Just wanted to update in case this helps anyone else.
Elliefantasy/Elliephantasy.