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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: Nowecious on Wednesday 16 May 12 06:28 BST (UK)
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John LEBHERZ married Hannah Jane HOUGHTON in Brisbane, 11th March 1878. I am guessing that his birth family would have immigrated with some of the Christian groups that came out all together to Queensland, but would like to know when & where from (if possible). They had 7 children, but then, some time between 1891 & 1910, they emigrated to Wellington, NZ, where their 6th child, dtr Florence Emily Rosina married Harry TOOMER in 1910.
Hannah Jane's surname seems to be one of those which can be spelled several ways >:(, but if anyone can turn up something on her too I would be most grateful.
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Would John's death certificate tell you where he was born? What is the origin of the surname Lebherz?
Or, do you have his marriage certificate? This should also give his birthplace.
Variations to the surname might make it difficult to trace John. Do you know where Hannah came from?
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I found this on Wellington.govt.nz
Last Name:LEBHERZ
First Name: JOHN
Age:67
Deceased Date:00-00-0000
Occupation:BUTCHER
Service Date:18-08-1925
Service Provided:Burial
Cemetery:Karori
Section:PUBLIC2
Plot Number:427 W
Record Number:68933
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hi,
A john Lebherz a butcher of Milton, Brisbane was declared insolvent on 31st March 1888. Maybe this helped with his decision to move to NZ.
Gerry
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Hi
A search of immigration records on Ancestry shows names that could possibly be Lebherz all coming from Austria, nothing definite though.
There was a family of Houghtons who arrived on the "Norman Morrison" in Qld in 1863, parents look to be Andrew and Sarah, includes a daughter Fanny born 1860.
mum mum
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Sorry, looks llike Fanny married William Davies in 1878.
mum mum
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Thank you Ruskie, dylansmother & Aussie1947.
Interesting about the bankruptcy in 1888, but (presuming it was the same John) he had dtr Florence in Sept of that year, and another son in Nov.1890, who died Jan 1891, before moving.
There was another l-a-r-g-e Lebherz family (13 kids) there at the same time, so they might have been related. They are likely to have been German, but could also have been Swiss.
No, I haven't yet got John's D/c - just found out today that it was 1925 (under the spelling Le Bherz). He was also on the Aliens' List of 1917, and it looks as if he was naturalised on 25.5.1925. So if I don't have any joy with the D/c, I could try the Naturalisation declaration. I can also try the old Brisbane newspaper (Courier Mail?) if it is online, to find out the details of the bankruptcy. By reading the reports in the old papers, I learnt a lot about the life of one of my Gt-grandfathers who also went bankrupt in the 1880s.
Thanks again for your suggestions.
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Hi
Naturallization record for Jacob Friedrich Lebherz, born 1838 in Germany, father of 5 boys and 5 girls. Was John born in Australia?
http://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNRetrieve/Interface/ListingReports/ItemsListing.aspx
mum mum
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1895 Queensland State Electoral Roll.
District of Fortitude Valley
Lebherz John, 36, butcher, Ballow St, 6th house on the left from Wickham St.
Qualified to be on the roll by residence on 1st October 1894
(Age 36 would have been at the qualification date)
Gerry
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Looks like a Lebherz family comprising Conrad 55 and Rosine 49 plus 11 children including a Johannes 5 arrived at Moreton Bay from Hamburg on the "Johann Cesar' in 1863.
The family was from Gross Bottwar, Wurttemberg, Germany.
Gerry
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Thank you mum mum & Gerry.
I think my next move will be to get John's Death cert. (NZ) I think you (Gerry) have the right family on the Johann Cesar, as the names Conrad & Rosine/a are perpetuated in later generations. They are not common names, although they might have been in that place at that time. I have a suspicion that Jacob Fr. was a brother; he was married in 1870. Both families seem to like giving their childen 2-3 given names.
I tried the NZ-BMD online last evening, but they 'said' that there were no Lebherz or Le Bherz entries??? Maybe the weather was affecting cyberspace (electrical storms) so I will try again today.
Re the Houghtons - on the copy of their marriage entry, her maiden name is given as HOUTEN, so I will try for that spelling.
Thanks again for your help.
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On that voyage,
Conrad Lebherz 55
Rosine Lebherz 49
Jacob Lebherz 25
Rosine Lebherz 23
Catharine Lebherz 21
Dorothea Lebherz 18
Caroline Lebherz 15
Friederike Lebherz 13
Marie Lebherz 11
Friedrich Lebherz 9
Wilhelmine Lebherz 8
Johannes Lebherz 5
Catharine Lebherz 1
Gerry
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Hi, when you look at the naturalization records for Jacob Frederick you will see that he sent his papers baack to have the spelling corrected. It was mispelt 'Lebhertz' I think so you will need to try all possible ways of spelling it. I dont know if you can use '*' to search NZ records.
mum mum
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Information from NZ BMD Website
DEATHS
Registration Number: 1925/5803
Family Name: Lebherz
Given Name(s): John
Date of Birth/: 67Yrs
Age at Death
I also found this in the Evening post, New Zealand, Saturday
October 15th 1910. On the 12th October 1910, at the residence of the Bride's parents 41 Palmer Street, Wellington, Harry Toomer, fourth son of John Toomer late of Christchurch, to Florence Emily Rosina Lebherz, youngest daughter of John Lebherz, Brisbane.
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Hello again everybody. I got John Lebherz's d/c,(1925), but it is not all that helpful. For instance it lists Living Issue as 3 males, 46, 42, and 39, which fits in nicely for Arthur John Conrad (Snr), Alfred William Jacob and Joseph Francis Samuel, but it makes no mention of daughters Catherine Mary Jane (who married CLAYTON) or Florence Emily Rosine (who married Harry TOOMER) - and she died 1929.
It states that he had been in NZ for 17 years, but he & Emiline, and son AWJ & wife, are in the 1905 Oxley/Coorparoo Electoral Roll. Next found in the 1908 NZ Roll. On Florence's ITM, Oct.1910, she states she has been in Wellington for 3 years, which would indicate that they must have emigrated 1906/7. John would probably have had to be resident for about 12 months before getting on to the Electoral Roll. I was told by both National Library & Archives NZ that it was highly unlikely that I would find out what ship they came out on, as by then the immigration schemes had finished, so unless someone has the family legend containing the name of the ship, that is a brick wall.
I was told by the old man I met, who was son of Harry & Florence, that the le Bherz family in Christchurch (where the Toomers came from) was connected. Bfn. Nowecious.
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This might be a bit of news but this Lebherz family figures prominently in the journals of my grandfather (William Armstrong)who was a Mormon missionary in Brisbane 1896-1898. This was a beloved family for my grandfather and they were very active Mormons at the time. There was a large apostasy of the Branch in 1901 and several members changed to the RLDS group. It was around this turmoil that the Lebherz family moved to New Zealand, whereas two years earlier they had planned on immigrating to Salt Lake City, Utah. I am not sure which faith they followed at that point. Do you have photos of this family? I have several that are unidentified and this family might be among them. I can check my records for the details that I have on the family.
Kathy
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Hello Kathy.Wow! That is a surprise.
John's Death Cert states that he belonged to the "Pentecostal
Church". I am sure the boys would be thrilled to hear any information you could provide. I have been wondering why the messages on the boards all seem to be chasing up other descendant lines (i.e. other children of John & Hannah Jane) but seem to ignore the family who came to NZ.
I have a studio photo of Florence Emily Rosina and her husband Harry Toomer on their wedding day which I would be happy to forward to you. Also, if you have access to PapersPast, there are articles in Evening Post (Wellington) 14th March 1910; and Wairarapa Daily Times 31st July 1909; plus a couple of minor ads; and the wedding announcement (12th Oct.1910).
Can I contact you separately to send the photo as an attachment? I will contact that part of the family to see if they have any other photos, although I doubt if they would be able to identify any older members of the family (unless someone had written the details on the back of a photo.)
I look forward to hearing from you again
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Until I hear from you and can write out the tale that I think you are anxious to hear, let me give you the family details that I have which might help you and those on Rootschat that are trying to help in your research. I don't know what is news or old information.
The church records that I have seen had brothers Jacob Frederick Lebherz born 1838 and John Lebherz born 1858 as the sons of John C. Lebhertz and Catherine Deuble. I know that he was married to Hannah J. Houghton, but I don't know if it was death or divorce that ended the marriage. John married Emmeline Wilson, who was divorced or widowed from John Wilson. Your John and Emmeline married in May 1896. With "yours and mine" children around the same age it was an interesting mix of families and personalities.
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Hello again Kathy. The info I have got from Oz BMD records shows John's second wife as Emmeline WAKELIN, and this is what is on his Death Cert. Perhaps that was her maiden name? The 20-year age gap between Jacob & John had had me wondering if they were perhaps father & son, or brothers at each end of the sibling line. And no, I haven't been able to track down Hannah Jane either, although on John's D/C she is referred to as JANE BURKE, so it looks as if she was known by Jane & not Hannah, but as for Burke...???.
From one of the previous contributors on this page, a Conrad & Rosine Lebherz came out in 1863, and Jacob & Johann (John) were in that family. Conrad could be your "John C. ", but Rosine/Catherine ?? Did he too have a 2nd marriage? You can contact me separately at (*) so that we don't run out of space. I am waiting for Marr certs from Brisbane so that I can see if John was "wid" or "div" when he remarried.
Look forward to hearing from you.
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Nowecious, you should remove your email address from your post.
A moderator will probably do it, if you don't.
This is avoid spam etc.
You can use the PM system to tell Kathy your email address if you like.
Just click on the square / diamond under her name and it takes you to her profile and under it you'll see a line that says something like 'send this Rootschatter a personal message'.
Dawn M
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Humble Apologies. It was late at night, and I thought I had clicked on the right icon. (Excuses-excuses). Nowecious.
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thought i would introduce myself. Im John and Florence LeBherz great granddaughter... raised in new zealand but moved to brisbane early this year. I do have info on Johns time with the LDS church at Kangaroo Point if anyone is interested. I have only just discovered my ancestory links to brisbane.
John and Florence had 3 children i believe (will need to confirm this) Cyril, Harold and Violet. Harold is my grandfather who married Dorothy Toomer from Wellington, NZ.
i hope to visit key sites for John and his family here in Brisbane, and maybe find more family still living here :) :D
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Hello. I think you are a bit out with that. I have quite a long tree of that family, going back to the early 1700s (kindly supplied by a lady in Salt Lake City.)
Johannes/John LEBHERZ (b.1858 - d.1925 in NZ) married 1st Hannah Jane HOUGHTON in Brisbane, 1878. She died in childbirth in 1893, and he remarried to Emmeline (née Wakelin) Wilson in 1896. Children (7) of the 1st marriage include Florence Rosina Emily (the names are sometimes switched around) who was the 6th child. She became the 2nd wife of Harry TOOMER (after his first wife & 2 dtrs were drowned in the wreck of the "Penguin") and their children were 1911 Cyril John; 1914 Harold Harry; 1916 Ronald Harry; 1920 Violet Florence.
Harold Harry TOOMER married Dorothy Mary Forrester.
If you can send me your e-mail privately, I can give you more info.
If you are in Brisbane, there is another Toomer/Lebherz descendant living down on the Gold Coast who you could probably contact. Bfn.
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oops sorry.... yr right .. Harry and Florence (Lebherz) Toomer,,, their son Harold is my grandfather.... i would be interested in contacting the other lebherz/toomer relative on the coast.... ill try and figure out how to pm u my email..... thank u :)
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ladyshedragon if you just reply to this post with a 'thanks' you will have 3 posts and then you will be able to PM your Nowecious.
Dawn M
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Thanks Dawn ... :-)
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I'm related to Joseph Francis Lebherz (or Le Bherz) through his wife, Maud Bartley. Maud is my 2nd cousin 2x removed. I'd love to hear from anyone descended from this couple as I'm a bit confused and would love to discuss the family with someone to make sure I have the right names.
Maud and Joseph married in Brisbane in 1910. The children I have for them are Ada Florence Maud (married name Cunnington); Doris Elizabeth (married name Bell); John Francis (married to Daisy Morrison); Wiliam George (married to Kathleen Rosemarie Somers) and Alfred Charles (married to Eunice Jean Pearl Crick). I have some grandchildren's names but not all of them as I have seen a list on the Ryerson index of people with the Lebherz surname but not sure how they tie in with the family.
Any help anyone can give me to put me on the right track would be appreciated.
Regards and best wishes,
Gnlgymd100
(ancestry screen name Gnlgymd)