RootsChat.Com
Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Moray (Elginshire) => Topic started by: eversg on Tuesday 08 May 12 16:58 BST (UK)
-
I have recently discovered through Scotlands People that my great grandfather was a David Grant who was a farm servant at Sweethillock in Moray county at the time of the birth of my grandfather, Richard Grant, in 1870. Since there were many David Grants living in Moray and surrounding counties at the time, I am unable to identify which one is my ancestor. Could anyone suggest how I might find a list of farm servants who worked at Sweethillock. Secondly, where exactly is Sweethillock? A google search suggests that there might be more than one Sweethillock. Any asssistance would be much appreciated.
-
Richard's birth in 1870 should show his mother's name and the date of his parents marriage.
Can you give us these details and then, perhaps we can help you further.
Also which parish was the birth registered in?
Regards
Jean
-
There is this entry in 1871:
Robert Lamb 52., labourer b. Longside, Aberdeenshire
Margaret Lamb 20, daughter b. Monquhiter, Aberdeenshire
Alexanders Lamb 13, son b. Gemsie, Aberdeenshire
Richard Grant 8 months, grandson b. Drainie
Address: Part Of Lossiemouth, Drainie, Moray
A Richard Lamb was born to a Margaret Lamb on 19 July 1870 in Drainie.
Is this the Richard you are researching?
Monica
-
Hi
That's the only Richard Grant I can find also. There is not a birth for a Richard Grant in Moray in 1870 on SP, even allowing a +/- 2 years.
In 1881 Margaret Lamb is living at 25 Street B, Drainie, Elgin with Richard Grant, son, 10 born Lossiemouth
and Fanny McDonald, daughter, 4, born Lossiemouth.
Appears Miss Lamb's children went by their father's surname and not the name they were registered with at birth.
Jean
-
Robert Lamb was born in the village of Longside in 1819. His parents were William Lamb, a shoemaker, and Christian Keith. Robert was called after his grandfather, Robert Keith. He married Mary Hutcheon in 1838.
I have a fair amount of information on the Lambs as Robert's older sister, Christian, was my great great great grandmother. She was married to William Murray. In 1851 your Robert was working as a horseman for William Murray who was then overseer at Kinloch, St Fergus. Robert's family was living in Cuminestown, Monquhitter, at the time. Margaret was born there.
Graham.
-
Thanks very much for the amazingly quick responses and for your research.
Richard Grant was born in the Parish of Drainie. His birth was registered initially as Richard Lamb. His mother was Margaret Lamb. A "Corrected Entry" (according to Scotlands People) led to the name change of Richard Grant, once the father was known to be David Grant. The revision states that Richard Grant was a farm servant at Sweethillock and Margaret Lamb was formerly a domestic servant at Pittendreich. Do you know exactly where these farms are located?
Richard Grant immigrated to Canada in the 1920s. Margaret Lamb had a daughter, Fanny McDonald, born in 1876 and appears to have married a John Shand in 1885. The father of Fanny was Duncan McDonald. I believe Margaret died in 1891.
Remaining Mysteries: date of Birth, Parents of David Grant; date of death of David Grant; births and deaths of Duncan McDonald and death of Fanny McDonald
-
Wow, Graham!!! Your information is stunning.
I discovered the parents and grandparents of Margaret Lamb and the marriage of Robert to Mary Hutcheon. but, nothing else. This means, of couse, that we must be distantly related. I'd be delighted to learn of any other info that you possess. Do you have any old photos of family members?
Grant
-
Margaret's great grandparents were George Lamb and Elizabeth Keith who married in 1774. They spent most of their lives in the Mains of Pitfour, Old Deer. Elizabeth died in 1802 and George in 1818. One of their sons, William, was born in 1777. He married Christian Keith in 1808. They were Margaret's grandparents. Christian was born in 1788, the daughter of Robert Keith and Isobel Rettie from Clackriach, Old Deer. Christian died in 1847 and William in 1854. Altogether William and Christian had eleven children: Isobel, my Christian, Anne, George, William, your Robert, Margaret, James, Mary, Elizabeth and Alexander.
I don't know of any photographs of the Lambs. Please feel free to get in touch if you think I can help you with any details of the family. The family gravestone is at Crimond.
Graham.
-
Just on the issue of Sweet Hillock/Sweethillock and the farm that David Grant was working at in 1870. There is a Sweet Hillock farm in Drainie. In 1871, the family farming there was headed by a William Mustard who is described as a farmer of 140 Acres Arable Employing 3 Man & 2 Women. David Grant does not show there on that 1871 census entry, looks like he had moved on elsewhere by that time.
Not sure where else there may be place names/farms called Sweet Hillock/ Sweethillock, but likely the one in Drainie may be the most relevant given that is where Richard was born in 1870.
Monica
-
There's also a Sweethillock Farm near Alves in Moray.
Regards
Jen
-
Thanks, Jen. I thought there was a farm near Alves and near Drainie by the RAF hangars. This confirms it.
-
See
http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/2283723 (parish of Alves)
http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/1718176 (parish of Drainie)
http://www.geograph.org.uk/gridref/NJ1961 (parish of Elgin)
and a selection of red herrings
http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/217800
http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/2053771
http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/269356
http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/115801
-
Appears Miss Lamb's children went by their father's surname and not the name they were registered with at birth.
This is normal practice.
An illegitimate birth can only be registered in the father's name if he accompanies the mother to the registrar's office and signs the certificate at the same time as she does.
A corrected entry can be made if the father's name is determined in a court case for paternity.
However even if the child is not registered in its father's name, everyone in the parish probably knows who the father was, and the child will turn up in the census etc under its father's name.
The important thing to know is the parish[/b] where something occurred. The county is useful, but as you have found there can be places with the same names in different parishes, and even, occasionally, there could be more than one in the same parish.
It is possible that the kirk session might have taken an interest in Miss Lamb's pregnancies, in which case there may be some record in the minutes, if they have survived. If so, they would be in the National Archives of Scotland, but they are not available online.
It's also possible that the parochial board records might have some record, if she applied to the parish for relief. These records, if they have survived, will be in the Aberdeen City Archives, and there will be a microfilm copy in the Moray Local Heritage Centre in Elgin. Try http://libindx.moray.gov.uk/mainmenu.asp - you never know.
-
Thanks for the photos of Pittendreich(s). As you have discovered, Pittendreich is where Margaret Lamb lived and worked prior to the birth of Richard (Lamb) Grant in 1870. Likely, the relevant Pittendreich was the one located south-west of Elgin on Pluscarden Rd.
Do you have any information on the origin of the name Pittendreich - the spelling suggests German roots?
Grant
-
Nothing German about it.
'Pit' is a common start to a place name in eastern Scotland. It's from a Pictish word describing a unit of land.
'Dreich' is a perfectly respectable Scots word describing dull wet miserable weather, but I don't think that is anything to do with this place name. It doesn't occur in German.
According to the web site of the Scottish Place Name Society www.spns.org.uk Pittendreich is derived from 'Pet-an-druach' meaning 'portion of the druid' (priest). It says, "Though it is the most common of all Pit- names, Pittendreich has only eleven occurrences. Four of them are close to Culdee churches: Brechin, Loch Leven, Monymusk and St Andrews. Four of the rest are within a few miles of sites that, according to Easson, are arguably linked to the Culdees: Turriff, Deer, Blairgowrie, and Dunblane. The three awkward cases are the Pittendreichs near Lundie, Edinburgh and Elgin. In this note I will try to link those at Lundie and Edinburgh to the early church. I have no link for Pittendreich Elgin as yet."
-
Just read your historical review of the origin of the place name, Pittendreich fascinating- again, my thanks,
Grant
-
There's also a Sweethillock Farm near Alves in Moray.
Regards
Jen
Just discovered that the mother of the British Prime Minister, Ramsay MacDonald, Ann Ramsay lived at this Sweethillock in Alves in 1861 (through Ancestry). My gg-grandfather, David Grant lived at the other Sweethillock in Drainie.
u
-
the mother of the British Prime Minister, Ramsay MacDonald, Ann Ramsay lived at this Sweethillock in Alves in 1861 (through Ancestry)
And on the much more reliable FreeCEN http://www.freecen.org.uk/cgi/search.pl
-
the mother of the British Prime Minister, Ramsay MacDonald, Ann Ramsay lived at this Sweethillock in Alves in 1861 (through Ancestry)
And on the much more reliable FreeCEN http://www.freecen.org.uk/cgi/search.pl
Thanks. FreeCEN is particularly valuable for finding neighbours since one can view "Previous Household" and "Next Househould".
-
My great grandmother was born there in 1868 and some of her siblings up to 1877
-
Hi
Ann Ramsay the Mother of the first Labour primeminister is registered on this farm in the 1861 cencus and his father John MacDonald also appears to be linked to this farm. which is located west of Elgin near Alves
Hope this helps
Raymond
-
Hi there
You are making an enquiry about a David Grant and one of your replies says that he was working as a servant for the family that I am researching which is William Mustard of Muirton Farm, Lossiemouth, Moray, Scotland.
Can you tell me if this is true??
Gaye Jenkins
-
From family stories in my family Alexander Grant (Forres) was frends with Ramsay Macdonald. I wonder if there is any connection to your Grants. Most of what I have is on my Alexander's Mum's side rather than his Dad's (Peter).
-
My great grandmother was born there in 1868 and some of her siblings up to 1877
Sorry, I just noticed your reply - haven’t checked rootschat for some time. What was your great grandmother’s maiden name? My great-grandfather, a David Grant, was employed at Sweet Hillock/Sweethillock as a farm servant and other farms in the community, such as Balgreen, Muirton and Balormie.
-
From family stories in my family Alexander Grant (Forres) was frends with Ramsay Macdonald. I wonder if there is any connection to your Grants. Most of what I have is on my Alexander's Mum's side rather than his Dad's (Peter).
Sorry, I just noticed your reply - haven’t checked rootschat for some time. My Grandfather was a Richard Grant. He was born in 1870, five years after Ramsay MacDonald, in Lossiemouth and lived a couple of streets from him. Richard probably knew of Ramsay at a young age. Ramsay was very bright and quickly moved ahead. I believe he was teaching school at age 15! My Grants did not live in Forres, but there are family connections to it.
-
Hi there
You are making an enquiry about a David Grant and one of your replies says that he was working as a servant for the family that I am researching which is William Mustard of Muirton Farm, Lossiemouth, Moray, Scotland.
Can you tell me if this is true??
Gaye Jenkins
Hi Gaye,
Sorry, I just noticed your reply - haven't checked rootschat for some time.
William Mustard was a prosperous farmer at Sweethillock, Ogston - now under the RAF base in Lossiemouth. Muirton farm was located near Sweethillock. In 1875 he paid £105 10s in rent (1875 Valuation Roll - ScotlandsPeople). He was listed as an "Occupier". The proprietor of all of the farms in the area was a Sir William Gordon Gordon Cumming, Baronet. His Factor was J.(?) Robert Walker, Whiter. I'll have to check my records to find the Muirton reference.
Cheers,
Grant
-
In 1875 he paid £105 10s in rent (1875 Valuation Roll - ScotlandsPeople).
No, that's not what it means.
The so-called rentals on a valuation roll are an assessment on a rather arbitrary set of criteria. This so-called rental value is then used to calculate the amount of money payable in rates (i.e. local taxes) to the local council each year.
Whatever rent he actually paid could be quite different, and the only place you would be able to find that that would be in the records of the estate that owned the property. I do not know if the estate records of Sir William Gordon Gordon Cumming have survived or if so whether they are accessible.
You also need to be sure that you don't confuse Sweethillock in the parish of Drainie with Sweethillock in the parish of Alves. These are two entirely different farms.
One in the parish of Drainie https://www.geograph.org.uk/gridref/NJ1969
One in the parish of Alves https://www.geograph.org.uk/gridref/NJ1361
J Robert Walker would be a Writer, not Whiter. A Writer is another word for a lawyer or solicitor.