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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Aberdeenshire => Topic started by: enfrance on Tuesday 08 May 12 10:40 BST (UK)
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Using Scottish People I have been trying to find the birth of my wife’s great grandfather, George Donald. I found his marriage to Maggie Watson in 1889 in St Nicholas, Aberdeen, when he was 38 hence he was born about 1851 so prior to the Statutory Registers.
In that entry his parents are shown as (what looks like) Horatio? Donald and Ann Watt, both deceased at the time of the wedding.
George and Maggie’s son was named Harry Gordon Watson Donald. I’m also having trouble finding his birth entry. He was born in 1889. I have his birth year from his marriage register. I’ve not found the source of the Gordon name yet.
Any help finding either George or Harry would be great.
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Hi,
From family search.
Parents Horatio Donald & Ann Watt.
George Donald born 25/01/1850 & baptised on 05/03/1850, Skene, Aberdeen.
Robert Donald born 18/01/1852 & baptised on 16/02/1852, Skene, Aberdeen.
John Donald born 11/02/1855, Skene, Aberdeen
Horatio Donald married Ann Watt on 05/06/1847, Skene Aberdeen.
Sharon
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Sharon, that was so quick. It also shows that I was a bit naive in thinking that familysearch would not cover Scotland, doh, as the kids say now.
Many thanks, now I have clues to other members of the family. I was also thrown by the name Horatio!
Mike
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Hi
Sharon has beaten me to it ;D but as I've just typed this up, I'll post...
The IGI is always great (free) place to start with Scotland genealogy from early days to approx 1873 (I prefer to start on the old IGI for Scotland myself!)
Horatio DONALD & Ann WATT are the parents of the following children (all extracted births on the IGI:
George DONALD b 25 Jan 1850, chr 8 Mar 1850, Skene
Robert DONALD b 18 Jan 1852, chr 16 Feb 1852, Skene
John DONALD b 11 Sep 1855, Skene
From this, we know where to look for them in the 1851 Census.
Their marriage (extracted):
Horatio DONALD & Ann WATT married 5 Jun 1847, Skene.
As per Scottish tradition - Skene is likely to be the bride's 'home' Parish (and indeed the Census below has her born in Skene).
We also have the bonus of an 1855 birth - this was the one year, at the start of Civil Registration when a lot of extra information appeared on the BDM's - the FAQs on this on Scotlands People:
1855 birth records were very detailed and are a boon to the family historian - you get: details about the child (date, place and time of birth, full name, sex), the parents' names (including MS of mother), father's occupation, name of informant and relationship to child, information on siblings, the ages and birthplaces of both parents, their usual residence and the date and place of their marriage.
1841: Leddach, Skene, Aberdeenshire
http://www.freecen.org.uk/cgi/search.pl
Charles WYNESS 69, Ag Lab - Y
Margrat WYNESS 68 - Y
Ratchel WYNESS 25 - Y
Ann WYNESS 22 - Y
Horatio DONALD 27, Ag Lab, b England
1851: Crombie Cottage, Skene, Aberdeenshire
http://www.freecen.org.uk/cgi/search.pl
Head: Horatio DONALD 39, Ag Lab, b London England
Wife: Ann DONALD 31, b Skene
Son; George DONALD 1, b Skene
1861: Chaple Hall Of Kinmundy, Skene, Aberdeenshire
Head: Ann DONALD 41, Stocking----ter?, b Skene
Son: George DONALD 11, Scholar, b Skene
Son: Robert DONALD 9, Scholar, b Skene
Son: John DONALD 5, b Skene
(would need to confirm Ann's marital Status via the Census image) (she looks to be a widow - hopefully Horatio died in or after 1855! In the 1881 Census, Ann is described as a Road Worker's widow.
and I'd say this is Horatio:
LONDON Baptisms:
Born 18 Sep, 1811, Baptised 20 Oct 1811, St George in the East, Tower Hamlets:
Horatio DONALD, son of Charles DONALD, Custom House Officer, by Rachael, Catherine Street,
Cheers
AMBLY
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deleted
Sharon
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Ambly and Sharon, what can I say?
That is all so interesting. Not least the surprise that Horatio came from my neck of the woods and is a Southerner :D.
Many, many thanks.
Mike
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Just to add -
http://www.anesfhs.org.uk/databank/miindex/miindex.php
Look for Horatio Donald
ev
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Its getting difficult to keep up! :D
Amazing. Thanks, Mike
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Ambly, you got your wish! Horatio did die in 1855.
Mike, hopefully a rootschatter will have a copy of the Kirkton of Skene book & will be able to give you the full memorial inscription!
flst
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Working my way - with masses of help from Rootschat - has become a labour love due to all the detail in the Scottish records. Presumably these days they would have been called jobsworths! Much of what we've found will be a revelation to my Wife's relations.
The big mystery is why Horatio moved so far North from the East End to Aberdeen. The only clue so far is that his father was a Customs Officer and perhaps he was transferred to the land of the whiskey. Horatio may have moved alone as he was lodging with the Wyness's in Skene in the 1841 census. Is there something about Skene to attract someone like Horatio? To answer my own question, I've just Googled Kirton of Skene and found that it is/was a small farming community, so no particular things like gold mines to attract a young man. Or as my wife suggests, she knows her family ;), that he was hiding from something :o
Mind you, I'm still having trouble finding Horatio's parents, Charles and Racheal, marriage. Presumably just before 1806 when their eldest son, William was born.
flst, can I assume that there is a real chance of a memorial inscription? This would assume that they would spend money on the stone and then have it engraved. This is not something many of my relatives - Southerners - would have indulged in. Fascinating stuff.
Mike
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Ambly, you got your wish! Horatio did die in 1855.
That is good luck ;D (from Mike's point of view, rather that poor Horatio, or Ann's, left with 2 youngsters and a new born :'( ). Hopefully, the death certificate gives the maiden name of Horatio's mother....
The IGI, gives up another child:
Chas. DONALD b 24 Sep 1804, chr 1 Oct 1804, St Mary-St Marylebone Rd, St Marylebone
parents: Chas DONALD & Rachel (extracted record). The original document has no further information than that.
Cheers
AMBLY
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As so much work has been done by others, being a local thought I'd do my share. Mike didn't advise if he'd downloaded the deathe ntry. I've just done so.
Shows that Horation Donald, aged 43 years, a farm labourer married to Ann Watt died on 29 Jan 1855. Died at Crombie Cottage, Blackhill, Parish of Skene. He'd lived in the parish for 6 years. had 2 sons george 5 years and Robert 3 years.
Parents: Charles Donald and Rachel Donald, maiden name Rabbit. The maiden name, as the entry is of good + quality.
Informant was Robert Watt, brother in law.
Initial cause of death has been crossed out and now looks to be pneumonia of the right lung.
Regards, Steve :)
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Ambly, for a change I'd found Charles but I still haven't got Charles' and Rachel's marriage but it looks like Piglet has cast some light on it. I didn't know that the mother's maiden name would be shown in the death entry.
Piglet, I've sent you a PM. According to the other information, poor Horatio and Ann had a son John, just before he died. And he is shown as a lodger with the Wyness family in the 1841 census but in Leddach, Skene which presumably is another parish. I am assuming that Ann Watt was a local girl.
Being new to the Scottish system it seems I should be looking for the death entries as well as the births and marriages for the most information. Presumably this is also a good confirmation of the various references.
Regards,
Mike
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I agree that the Scottish records are definately a good source of information.Remember that the death certificates are only as reliable as the informant's knowledge of the deceased! Mistakes can be made especially regarding parent's names.
There is a memorial.The link that ev gave was for the index of memorial inscriptions. The book will have the full transcription & will also include a plan of the graveyard showing the grave's location.You could put in a request in the Aberdeenshire look up's or how about purchasing the book? It can be bought off the A.N.E.S.F.H.S.'s website.
flst
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Ambly, I wonder if you could explain about the IGI you refer to.
I've been using ScotlandsPeople which is fine but it would be excellent and cheaper if I could find the records I need elsewhere - IGI? - and then pay for copies of the registrations etc.
Mike
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If you go to http://www.familysearch.org you'll be able to do a search.Remember that the I.G.I. is an index. It's a useful finding tool but scotlandspeople is the place to go if you need to read the original record.This is especially necessary if the people mentioned have a common surname. There may be more than one person in the parish with the same name.Also some will only state the father's name. The actual record may state his occupation & address.Hope this helps,
flst
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Just to make sure I've got this. FamilySearch is actually the interface for the IGI and when we use FS we are in fact referring to the IGI database?
If you don't ask . . . . . :D
Thanks flst.
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I use familysearch to view the I.G.I.online. I have also viewed the I.G.I. at local libraries where they are in microfiche form. I.G.I. stands for International Genealogical Index. You need to look at the Old Parish Records (on scotlandspeople) to see the original record. Hope this clarifies things!
flst
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Thanks, flst. I'm there now. :D
Mike
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Due to all the information about Horatio, George/Maggie etc, I rather lost sight of my need to find Harry Gordon Watson Donald.
If anyone could have a shot at finding him I would be very grateful as he is pivotal, being my wife's grandfather. I cannot find his birth record. He was born in 1889 in Banchory Ternan, Kincardine - from the 1891 census aged 3 - and died in Portsmouth in 1966.
His name seems to have developed with the Watson from his mother's side but we don't know where the Gordon name comes from.
His parents - see above - are George and Maggie (Margaret) Donald who lived in Aberdeen. He married Nellie Calder in 1913 in Aberdeen and they had two sons, Harry James Calder Donald and Douglas Donald and a daughter Margaret Helen Donald.
I hope this is enough background.
PS: After all the advice about the IGI I have used it but to no avail in this case :(
and one last question, is the case that a 'tailor', (today's meaning) could be expressed/spelt as 'Taylor' on a Scottish document? We have a census answer which shows the occupation as 'taylor' and wondered.
Mike
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For info, as Skene is where I live :- Leddach was a small estate of Skene. Basically, the only thing that is left is Leddach House, which is at the Mason Lodge on the main Aberdeen to Alford road, imediatley West of Elrick. You can google it on google maps. There is a video of it on you-tube :-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qRJu8VuJ7y8
The name "Leddach" is retained in street names in Westhill and the surrounding area.
Here is a link to the Skene Heritage Society :-
http://www.skeneheritage.org/uploads/3/8/8/9/3889945/newsletter_20.pdf
Horatio and Ann along with their son John is buried at plot 162 of Kirkton of Skene Churchyard.
The inscription reads: In mermory of Horatio Donald, died 29 January 1855 aged 43, his son john, died 7 September 1869 aged 14. his spouse Ann Watt, died 8 december 1881 aged 62.
Regards
Malky
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Hi Malky,
Many thanks for all that information, especially about the sad death of John Donald. Although I had the details the insciption brings it to life.
As if losing Horatio soon after John was born wasn't enough, Ann had to deal with John's death not that long after. I must try to find what he died of. Other relatives living in Aberdeen had died on both smallpox and typhoid fever so things were a bit fraught to say the least.
Thank you for the inscription wording. Someone has offered to take a picture of the headstone as well so as usual Rootschat members excell!
We will be reading the Skene Heritage newsletter with a better insight.
Regards,
Mike
PS; Presumably 'Flattybashing' in some form of Higland game like tossing the caber :D
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You might want to take a look at this Forum Thread about "Donalds":
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,560962.0.html
Regards,
Phil.
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Hi Phil,
MoreGubbins and I are in touch, as they say ;).
I found his thread when browsing and he has already been a mine of helpful info.
Many thanks for pointing it out,
Mike
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As so much work has been done by others, being a local thought I'd do my share. Mike didn't advise if he'd downloaded the deathe ntry. I've just done so.
Shows that Horation Donald, aged 43 years, a farm labourer married to Ann Watt died on 29 Jan 1855. Died at Crombie Cottage, Blackhill, Parish of Skene. He'd lived in the parish for 6 years. had 2 sons george 5 years and Robert 3 years.
Parents: Charles Donald and Rachel Donald, maiden name Rabbit. The maiden name, as the entry is of good + quality.
Informant was Robert Watt, brother in law.
Initial cause of death has been crossed out and now looks to be pneumonia of the right lung.
Regards, Steve :)
Hi enfrance,
I don't want to hijack your thread, but have a quick question. I wondered if Fattybasher/Malky or someone else from the area can confirm the location of the cottage. I descend from a family (many buried in Kirkton of Skene) who moved to Crommie Cottage, Kingwells between 1881 & 1891 & lived there until the mid 1920s. (Malky generously went & photographed it for me a few months ago. :-*)
On an old map (c.1850 if I recall) the house at what is now referenced as the Kingswells location was noted as Crombie. I assumed the old map contained a typo.
Are these two cottages one & the same?
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Ammended due to further research. See subsequent post.
Regards
Malky
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Thanks very much Malky. I don't see any family connections between my Bains of Crommie Cottage & enfrance's Donalds/Watts, but thought it was worth a look. I always appreciate your thoroughness.
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Hi MS,
That is hardly a hijack as the info is fascinating ;). Firstly that the cottage still exists and secondly that your family lived there. But the movement of the boundaries is a pain not least to anyone trying to find something via the genealogy records.
Your input is yet another small piece in the jigsaw which brings the subject to life, especially as it was so tragic for Horatio's family.
Malky, I agree with MS about the info we get from Rootschat members. Invariably helpful and accurate.
Thanks,
Mike
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I suspect you may already know about this but here goes;
After I posted that last message and for no reason in particular I Googled 'Crombie Cottage, Aberdeen'.
If you look at the 8th result, headed 'A report of the trial etc' you will find, via Google books, a copy of lots of naughty goings on at Crombie Cottage among the 'desperately depraved' inmates :o It can be downloaded as a pdf file. This is the link - sorry about its length :(
http://books.google.fr/books?id=KrEuAAAAIAAJ&pg=PR9&lpg=PR9&dq=crombie+cottage,+aberdeen&source=bl&ots=IOYBgLaYWY&sig=fyBzljJu63xkR1XDtHCGS3-ydx4&hl=en&sa=X&ei=8gbTT6nkEIeO8gPc7a2rAw&ved=0CFwQ6AEwBw
My wife is getting worried about the reputation of her family ::)
Mike
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I was revisiting this thread tonight, due to the fact that Crommie Cottage and Crombie Cottage are probably not the same building. I have been looking at earlier maps, and found Crombiescairn, 3 buildings West of Crommie Cottage as seen in the 1843 to 1882 6inch OS Scotland map. Also checking the origins of Westhill, Crombie Cottage was more likley to be in the vicinity of central present Westhill. It is not on any of the maps that I can find. This may be due to the fact that Crombie Cottage, which Malcolm Gillespie built in 1824-25, was burned down on the 21st/22nd February 1827, and the same Malcolm Gillespie was accused of the arson in an attempt to defraud the insurance company. It transcribed later that George Skene Edwards had set the fire in an attempt to get away from the wrongdoings going on at the cottage. The death of H. Donald at Crombie Cottage in 1855 then throws up another query. Was the cottage rebuilt after the fire, and if so, why is it not on the '43 to '82 map. The Gillespie children were searching for birds nests two months after the fire in the grounds/fields attached to Crombie Cottage and found the stolen property hidden by Edwards, which suggests that they were still living there, perhaps in an unburned outbuilding. So the house may have been rebuilt by the owner of the land, Mr Crombie of Phesdo.
I am intending to dig a little further.
Regards
Malky
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Thanks as always Malky. You're amazing.
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Another name from Crombie Cottage, Alexander Kellas, b c 1783, d May 7th 1862 farmed at said with his wife Barbara Garrow, b c1785, d October 12th 1857. Both buried at Skene.
As a result of the questions raised by the history of the cottage, I have sent a query to RCAHMS to see if they can come up with anything.
Regards
Malky
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I agree with RM - amazing indeed. :D
These are from a Google search for 'Crombie Cottage, Skene, Aberdeen'.;
RootsWeb;
ID: I08698
Name: Alexander Pirie 1
Sex: M
Birth: 2 SEP 1798 in Skene, Aberdeenshire, Scotland 2
Death: 7 FEB 1883 in Crombie Cottage, Skene, Aberdeenshire, Scotland 3 of Paralysis (1 month) (as certified by James Laing M.D.M.R.C.S.)
~~~~~~~~---
Also Googled and part of the website entry for Mary Morrison on Kildrummy Families, another reference to Crombie Cottage;
census
1841 enumerated @ Leddach, Skene with mother, grandparents, aunt/uncles William, Anne and John Williamson and cousin William Peter
1851 enumerated @ Crombie Cottage, Skene with grandfather (widower) and uncles William and John Williamson
1861 enumerated @ Crombie Cottage, Skene (dressmaker) with mother and uncle James Williamson
~~~~~~~~-------------------------------------------------------------
William Blackhall
M, #I83, b. 11 April 1875, d. 12 February 1941
Father: John Blackhall, b. 1851, d. 24 July 1924
Mother: Elizabeth England Moir, b. 23 October 1849, d. 06 August 1911
Birth: 11 April 1875 Mosside, Echt, Aberdeenshire
Death: 12 February 1941 West Lasts, Peterculter, Aberdeenshire
Occupation: Ploughman
Family
Marriage 1 : Isabella Anderson m. 10 June 1897 Crombie Cottage, Skene, Aberdeenshire, b. 28 January 1873, d. 27 March 1941
+ John Blackhall, b. 17 May 1897, d. 25 March 1980
+ Christina Jane Blackhall, b. 01 December 1898, d. 28 October 1955
+ Elizabeth Moir Blackhall, b. 05 March 1905, d. 02 July 1978
+ Alexander Anderson Blackhall, b. 01 April 1901, d. 26 January 1973
I sincerely trust that I am not entering a copyright situation having copied this info directly from the websites. I apologise if that is the case.
So what else can be uncovered?
Mike
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I removed the post referring to Crommie Cottage and Crombie Cottage being one of the same, as the location description from the Dying Declaration of Malcolm Gillespie, jus prior to his hanging, stated that the cottage was situated between two roads from the highlands. I may have been in haste, as the book published in 1952 for the Third Spalding Club, "The place-names of Aberdeenshire" contains the comments, "Crombie Cairn, also written as Crommie Cairn", "on the Old Skene road, near Westhill". I have reserved a copy and will get it by Wednesday. I will let you know what I find out.
Regards
Malky
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I managed to get a copy of the book, "The Place-names of Aberdeenshire", but unfortunately, it does not help. It states that Crombie Cottage was a property on the Old Skene road in the early 19th century.
Crombie Cairn, Peterculter. Also written "Crommie Cairn".
Interestingly, there is a death of a Barbara Hunter, nee Stephen at Crommie Cairn Cottage on the 6th July 1896.
There is an out of circulation OS map from 1901 which shows the Old Skene road. Aberdeen City Council archives has a copy of said. I am going to try and get a look at it to see if it can throw up any more information.
Regards
Malky
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Thanks Malky, I'm backing up my tree right now so can't check to see if I have a Stephan or Hunter but the names don't ring any bells. I will check once my system settles down.
The Bains moved into Crommie Cottage between 1881 & 1891 & lived there until Ann Bain (nee Henderson) died in 1923. From what I can figure, it was a tailoring establishment & shop when they lived there.
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Yes, there seems to be different surnames living at the same time, which would suggest that Crommie Cottage and Crombie Cottage are not the same property. Crommie Cairn is refered to as "Crooked cairn", but I actually wonder if it was a land marker for the property of Mr Crombie, whose land Malcolm Gillespie built Crombie Cottage on. Interesting stuff.
Regards
Malky
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RM, while surfing looking for more connections to the cottage I came across an excellent website dedicated to the Hunter family.
I'll try to find it again and post the link.
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Is it this one :-
http://chrisroughan.webs.com/
Regards
Malky
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Yep. the Hunters and Boddies. ;D
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The saga of Crombie and Crommie cottages is coming to an end. I spoke to the archivist at Aberdeen City council today. She had a search, and pointed me in the direction I wished to go.
Here are the results.
http://maps.nls.uk/os/25inch-2nd-and-later/view/?jp2=82862523
At least part of Crombie and Crommie cottage(s) are the same building, or the exact location of both. Malcolm Gillespie's description of location, although confusing is understandable, when one thinks about it, as one of the roads leads from Dufftown, and the other leads from the Lecht, both being in the highlands, and both being roads that illegal smuggling of spirits would have been carried on. The main cottage building as it stands now, would probably have been built post 1900, looking at the type of walls. And we know that the original one was burned down in 1829, so there may have been several rebuilds of the original cottage.
Regards
Malky.
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Malky, thank you so much for all your hard work with this subject, its been fascinating. We visited my stepdaughter this week and introduced her to the family tree - so far - and told her about the additional saga of Horatio and Crombie Cottage. As a newcomer to the subject she was also fascinated about how much its possible to find out about such things, especially with expertise such as yours.
As I love maps, thank you for ths link which puts a face on the area. Without your input we would not have known so much and I will now be able to include this story in the family history.
I hope you got something out of the exercise as well and can appreciate its tremendous value to us.
And also thanks to Red Mystic for the original question about the Cottage which has led to all this.
Yours,
Mike
PS; We are still looking for Harry Donald ;D
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Mike, if you look at the ANESFHS MI index for Kirkton of Skene, George Watt, Stone/Plot 161, next to the Horiato Donald stone/plot, you will find Anne Watt's parents, father George "senior", mother Ann Philip, and the rest of the family.
Regards
Malky
Harry is still being elusive after 1851.
Ps, there are a lot more on Rootschat with far more expertise than me. Far too many to name individually, buth their individual posts and varied thread responses speak for themselves.