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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Denbighshire => Wales => Denbighshire Lookup Requests => Topic started by: Jetdragon on Monday 07 May 12 00:53 BST (UK)
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Hi All
I am looking for any details on one Henry Ellis born around 1869 in Rossett. Henry was my GGF and is noted in the 1901 census as working as a cattleman in Bretton, Flintshire with his wife Mary Jane (nee Povey)and daughters Emma (my GM) and Clara.
If anyone has the time to look for any records regarding Henry (Baptism, parentage etc) it would be very much appreciated since my researches from Australia have thus far been fruitless.
I do know he died on 4 Feb 1934 and married Mary Jane on 29 Aug 1897. His father may have been named John Ellis. I know nothing of his mother or family.
Thanks and Regards
Dave
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I have been looking at the census for your Henry and was using the county of Denbighshire with no luck at all. Then I came across a Henry in 1871 born Llansillin Shropshire.
But the birth date is 1871 and the father Henry is born Gibraltar. Wife and all children born Denbighshire.
Just posted this to point out the discrepancy in County and the difference it can make in a search.
Need to follow this Henry through the census. I have discounted the other 2/3 I found.
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Thanks - I very much appreciate your comments - you're right though - a small discrepancy on a record can make a huge difference. I only wish I had started loking into my family history when Emma was alive - she could have shed so much light on what is now a very hazy story.
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I see their mariage reg comes under the reg district Chester
Henry Ellis and Mary Jane Povey Sept 1/4 1897 Chester vol 8a page 631
It may be that you will have to get this cert to get the parents details and make sure you are on the right track. :)
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Hi - yes it's from this cert that I have Henry's father listed as John Ellis.
I came to a grinding halt when I tried to track the John Ellis / Henry Ellis family through census returns.
The Povey angle is ok - Mary Jane was my GGM
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Oh dear, that does chuck a spanner in the works.
Even if he was the one I found with Henry father born Gibraltar (looks unlikely from age) young Henry was with him until he was at least 10 so you'd think he'd remember his father's name!
Ok I'll see if I can look at it from another angle.
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Who are the witnesses on the marriage cert? Could they be of any help?
Added:- of course Henry may just have made up a name for his father if he, henry was illegitimate. My grandad did, and he picked the name John. It was a dead giveaway when he put the occupation down as "gentleman." :)
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I'll do that later - I'm at work ATM so can't access the cert.
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ok - The wits on the certificate are Frederick and Mary Huxley (don't know the names - unless Mary was perhaps nee Ellis?). The Wedding took place in the Chester Parish of St Bridget with St Martin on 29-8-1897.
Both Bride and Groom are listed as resident at 5 St. Martin's Ash (I'm guessing that's somewhere in Chester)
Henry's father is listed as John Ellis (Labourer)
at this point for me the trail goes cold.
Thanks again for your help
Dave
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Hello Jetdragon,
There Cheshire Parish Register Database has a baptism as follows:
Cheshire St John the Baptist.
4 August 1866, Henry Ellis, son of John and Ellen Ellis, Father's occuption: Painter. Abode: Foregate St.
Chester is about 6 miles from Rossett. It is worth bearing in mind.
http://www.csc.liv.ac.uk/~cprdb/
The parish registers for Rossett can be viewed at the Palmer Centre in Wrexham, I wonder if there is a Roots Chatter living near there who could do a look up for you?
Jo.
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Thanks Jo - that one is a distinct possibility, particularly given the St Martin's Ash reference on his wedding cert. It has given me another angle to follow up.
I used to live in Broughton in another life, just wish I had started this project then!!
cheers
Dave
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Hello Dave,
A strange coincidence but I also lived in Broughton at one time! I lived there for some years and know the area round there very well.
I don't know if you have found the census entry for Henry and family, father John Ellis. They are in Chester in the 1871, Henry aged 4. The reference is: RG10/3721 Folio 73 Page 3.
The area is St John the Baptist and the road off Foregate St, it looks like Hamilton Co (court?).
John Ellis, head, married, aged 34, Painter, born Chester.
Ellen Ellis, aged 26, wife, born Chester.
Robert J Ellis, son, aged 6, Scholar, born Chester.
Henry Ellis, son, aged 4, born Chester.
Eliza Ellis, daughter, aged 3, born Chester.
This is the same family as the baptism for Henry Ellis.
In the 1891 Henry and his brother are still in Hamilton Court which seems to be off Foregate St.
Robert J Ellis, Head, aged 21, single, Decorator, born Chester.
Henry Ellis, single aged 20, Decorator, born Chester.
Reference: RG12/2861 folio 68 page 2.
What did Henry have as his occupation on his marriage certificate? That may be the way to establish if he the right one. He seems to have followed his father's occupation the same as his brother.
Jo.
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Hello again,
This may be a dead end as I have found this Henry Ellis on the 1901 census in Hoole, Chester. He is also married to Mary and they have a son. He is still a painter and decorator.
I think you will need to get a search of the Rossett parish registers to establish the exact position. It could be he was illegitimate as you say. His father may have been John Ellis but he may have been baptised in his mother's name.
Jo.
Edit: Since there are two people by the name of Henry Ellis born within a few years of each other and married to a lady by the name of Mary, are you sure that you have the right marriage certificate?
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Hi Jo
Definately a dead end - my Henry Ellis (now aged 32) was living at Catherine Farm, Bretton with his wife Mary Jane and daughters Emma (my GM) and Clara on the 1901 Census (RG13 3377 116 1 6). His birthplace is again given as Rossett, Denbighshire.
His occupation was given as "cattleman" on the wedding cert and the census
cheers
Dave
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Hello Dave,
This one is quite a tough nut to crack.
I have found him on the 1911 and his place of birth is shown as Rossett again. His age is 45, so year of birth c1866 on this basis.
The family has moved around by the look of it as some of their children were born in Farndon. The odd thing is that they have a Harry Povey Ellis, son, aged 17, born Farndon. This puts his year of birth as c1894. Do you have the details of all their children?
Where was Harry Povey Ellis in the 1901? There is a birth registration for Harry Povey in Chester RD in the December quarter 1893. Vol 8a Page 360.
I will have a further dig around and see what I can find if anything. I like a challenge!
Jo.
Edit: I found Harry Povey with what appear to be Mary's parents in Farndon in the 1901. He is shown aged 7, Grandson. There is also a Grandaughter, Emma Ellis, aged 3. Both shown as born Farndon.
I cannot find any sign of Henry Ellis in earlier census returns to that of 1901
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Hi Jo
Yes, Mary Jane's family lived in Farndon. Thinking about it Henry was perhaps the adopted illigitimate son of one of Mary Jane's siblings. I must admit I never really thought of him as her child - I assumed that's why he had the double barrelled surname - perhaps I'm wrong though (I never got round to acquiring his birth cert as he's a bit of a tangent to my main researches).
Are you aware of any source of the Rossett Parish Registers online? - I have not been able to discover one as yet.
Henry Ellis is definately a mystery - I'm having the same kind of problems with my paternal GGGF. I guess that's the price of ancestors who were primarily farm labourers with little literacy beyond a couple of generations back.
Researching my wife's ancestry has been much simpler - still that's part of the fun isn't it?
Thanks again
DAve
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Hello Dave,
I don't know of any Rossett Parish registers that can be found online. There is one website that has put some Welsh parish registers online and I will check that out to see but I doubt it. They do plan to put more on in due course.
I have some ancestors from Rossett and the surrounding area, the parish registers are very good indeed.
The only way to be 100% certain about Harry Povey would be to get the birth certificate for him.
I have found a "possible" for Henry Ellis in the 1871 but the age is not quite right. His age does seem to wander, so you never know. He is in Broughton, aged 7. Have you seen this one? I am going to pursue it further before posting it.
Jo.
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Hello Dave,
I am still pursuing this and may have found the witnesses to the marriage, Frederick and Mary Huxley.
There is a baptism for Frederick Huxley in Holt on 25/06/1865. He was the son of Thomas and Ellen Huxley. Frederick had a sister, Mary, born in 1863, also in Holt.
The family can be found in the 1871 census in Holt at reference: RG10/5651 Folio 125 Page 4.
I found that Thomas and Ellen had a son by the name of Henry born in Holt in 1861. He is not with them on the 1871 however. The 1881 census shows the family in Holt with a Henry aged 10. Did the Henry born 1861 die perhaps? The reference for the 1881 is: RG11/5510 Folio 18 Page 30.
Holt is a few miles from Rossett.
I wonder if this family is connected to the Henry you are seeking.
There is also a possible marriage in Chester Registration District in the December quarter 1896, Frederick Huxley to Mary Tracy.
Jo.
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Hi Jo
Thanks for your continued help with this problem. I am not aware of any connection with the Huxley's - but of course that doesn't mean there isn't one. Holt is close to Farndon where the Povey's resided -so it's possible that they were friends with Mary Jane.
Henry remains a mystery - I guess this is a classic "brick wall".
I would be grateful if anyone does have access to the Parish registers of Rossett that they could see if there is any record of the birth or baptism of a Henry Ellis between 1865 and 1870 (with 1869 being the primary target).
Thanks & regards
Dave
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Hi Dave
I checked a while ago but there's no mention of him in the parish records . It could be that the family were non-conformist or he was baptised in another parish (but nothing coming up apart from the one that Jo mentioned in Chester), or baptised under another name/names :-\
gnu
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Is there any chance that someone could do a search for a Henry ??? baptised in Rossett 1866-1869? This would mean looking for other surnames but I was thinking he was born illegitimately which might identify him, or give some clues at least.
Jo.
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Hi Jo
If you see my last message, I've looked rather widely already.
Hi Dave
I checked a while ago but there's no mention of him in the parish records . It could be that the family were non-conformist or he was baptised in another parish (but nothing coming up apart from the one that Jo mentioned in Chester), or baptised under another name/names :-\
gnu
Also checked for various names - but none of them or any of them could be him :-\
gnu
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The closest, which I saw at the beginning of the week, was a George Ellis bpt 12 Jan 1869 to an Ann Ellis, illegitimate.
Could be/could be not - maybe you or Dave could follow him up.
gnu
added - rechecked - I think he died shortly afterwards, which was why I didn't put it up :-\
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Thanks Gnu - lokks like I've got a problem with this guy :(
Dave
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They sometimes appear when you're not looking, Dave :-\
I'm slowly going through the Rossett Districts in 1871 trying to find some clues. There's an interesting family on the 1871 in the Allington (Trevalyn) part of Rossett:
Trevallyn, Allington
RG10/5651/73/21
John Ellis, widower, 76, ag lab
Ann, d, unm, 45
Samuel, grds, 21, ag lab
Sarah, grdd, 12
Jane, grdd, 7
Ann, grd, 12 mths
All b. Allington
Not saying that this is the family, just that it looks interesting and maybe worth looking in to. The baptism that I mentioned above was from this part of Rossett.
Also a couple of households headed by Thomas Ellises.
It's getting late here but it might be worth you going through the pages for the other Rossett EDs - Burton in Denbs and then Marford and Hoseley* in Flintshire
gnu
*Added - checked Marford and H - nothing interesting there!
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Hi all
I've been away digging for a fair while on this mystery - I now have a potential lead which I'm hoping someone may be able to pick up on.
At Rossett Parish Church, there is a headstone for one Mary Ellis of Harwoods Lane, Rossett who died 26 Jan 1924 aged 78. This would put her at around 23 years old when Henry was born in 1869.
In the same grave is Thomas Ellis (Mary's husband) who died 23 Jul 1934 aged 83 and Sarah Ellis (Daughter) who died 7 Jan 1956 aged 78.
I'm really hoping that this is Henry's family - the location and dates fit - can anyone suggest an angle to follow to prove that?
Incidentally - I'm in Australia so visits to Parish record offices are not an option (just in case you think I'm a lazy B*gger).
Thanks
Dave
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Hello
This looks like the family in 1881, no Henry though:
RG11/5511/51/27
Allington
Thomas Ellis, 33, labourer
Mary, wife, 35
James, s, 11
William, s, 9
Elizabeth, d, 6
Sarah, d, 3
Thomas, s, 9 months
All b. Allington
Gadget
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Hmm - thanks Gadget.
Henry would have been around 12 at that time so I guess it's conceivable that he was in service somewhere - he's certainly proving to be an elusive character
thanks again
Dave
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Same family in 1871, unless James became Henry :
Chapel Houses, Allington
RG10/5651/76/23
Thomas Ellis, 23, ag lab
Mary, 25.
James, s, 1
All born Allington
Gadget
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Hi Dave
My gt grandfather was also Henry Ellis, I guess that makes us cousins ? My grandfather was William born in 1912, he sadly passed away in 1980 he was 67. I’ve heard my mum talk about your grandmother Emma. I recall talking to my great aunt Amy about her mum & dad & she used to say mother was born in Farndon, father in Holt. It looks like Henry was 10 years older than Mary, and that their 1st child was born out of wedlock hence him being Harry Povey Ellis if you want to get in touch please email me (*) perhaps you can also help me as I was looking in to Emma’s line today did she marry Percy Davies ? Speak soon Sue
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