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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Topic started by: Fennawright on Sunday 06 May 12 12:07 BST (UK)
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I am looking for Thomas CARROLL in the hope of finding him with his parents and sister in a census.
I have him in 1871 at 122 John's Place, Alverstoke Hants.
Thomas age is 32 born Portsmouth.
Occupation Seaman Royal Navy so may have travelled around a bit.
His wife's name is Jane and her age 25.
There's a Father-in-law with them age 62 called John Briggs ? or Buggs?
but I cannot find a marriage for Thomas Carroll to Jane with either of those surnames.
The niece with them had a mother Mary Carroll who was 21 when she married in Nov 1861. Mary's father given as Thomas Carroll deceased.
I have found Mary in 1861 with surname spelt Carrol but no other Carrol with her. Haven't found Thomas yet.
Please can anyone spot Thomas and Mary in 1851 census?
Fennawright
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There is a Thomas Carroll aged 2 in the 1841 census Royal Marine Barrack's Mill Bay, Plymouth, St Andrew, Plymouth
Also listed with him are a Dorothy Carroll born about 1811 soldier's wife, Vernon aged 5, Ann aged 5, Mary Carroll aged 4 all soldier's children and further up the page a John born about 1801 sergeant 53rd regiment. It is impossible to tell if they are together though as the 1841 doesn't give relationships.
Jan
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looks like that Thomas Carroll was born in Corfu,,,,birth is in Army birth index.
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Hi
Thomas in 1851?:
1851: Royal Military Asylum for Children of Soldiers of the Regular Army
Chelsea, Middlesex
HO107/ Piece: 147/ Folio: 566/ Page: 15
Boys in the Institution: Thomas CARROLL 11, b Corfu
The 1871 Census gives Jane's pob as Fareham. Same for the father-in-law - and I think the name could be BIGGS:
1851:Henry Lane, Fontley, Fareham, Hants
HO107/ Piece: 166/ Folio: 43/ Page: 11
Head: John BIGGS 42, B Titchfield
Wife: Letitia BIGGS 44, b Stratford Warwick
Son: John 15, b Robertsbridge, Sussex
Son: William 1?, b Robertsbridge, Sussex
Son: Richard 10, b Yalding, Kent
Dau: Jane 5, b Cutfield, Sussex
Note: No occ given for John.
Note: Enumerator's check mark through William's age, obliterates the 2nd digit - but he should be age between 11 and 14?
Despite clear 'issues' re places of birth - and the change of name from Leticia to Elizabeth with the one person whose pob is coinsistent! - I think the following is maybe the same couple?
1861: Bunkers Hill, Fareham, Hants
RG 9/ Piece: 649/ Folio: 35/ Page: 15
Head:John BIGGS 54, Ag Lab, b Fareham Hants
Wife: Elizabeth BIGGS 60, Ag Lab wife, b Stratford on Avon, Warwick
Son: William BIGGS 23, Labour, b Fareham, Hants
Cheers
AMBLY
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That's interesting thank you.
My head has been spinning trying to find Thomas and Mary, and it's possible their father Thomas died soon after they were born.
Vernon is an unuasual name so it might be easier to follow this family through the census and see if that leads anywhere
Fennawright
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Do you have Thomas and Jane in 1881 & 1891:
Is this them?
1891: 59 Eel Street, Oldbury, Worcestershire
RG12/ Piece: 2266/ Folio: 34/ Page: 18/
Head: Thomas CARROLL 51, Grocer's Porter, b Corfu British Subject
Wife: Jane CARROLL 42, b Westbromwich
Son: Vernon John CARROLL 12, Grocers Boy, b Westbromwich
(In 1881 - Thomas' pob is given as Ireland....)
Cheers
AMBLY
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Oh dear!
Looks like the BIGGS family selected their birthplaces with a map and a pin!
Corfu !
Think I need to sit down.
Thanks Ambly and gortonboy.
Fennawright
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Thanks Ambly for the 1891 CARROLL information.
Looks promising with the son being a Vernon too.
Fennawright
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John Carroll b c1804 Portadown,County Armagh 53rd foot.
served in Gibraltar,Malta and Ionian Islands for 10 years,,,hence Thomas being born in Corfu. ;)
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The niece with them had a mother Mary Carroll who was 21 when she married in Nov 1861. Mary's father given as Thomas Carroll deceased.
It does look promising, but needs careful checking. From the 1841 census, Mary was born 1836 and her father was John. This doesn't fit with what your Mary says on her marriage certificate when she gives her age as 21 ie born 1840 and father as Thomas. You also say that your Thomas was born in Portsmouth, apart from the 1871 census do you have any other proof of this?
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I see what you mean.
The 1871 census was the only census where I found Thomas, so Portsmouth was the only birthplace I had for him.
The only birthplace I had for Mary was Winchester given on the 1861 census
but she was a servant age 21 on that and so no clue to others in her family from that.
Mary's marriage certificate gives her father as Thomas Carroll, green grocer.
One of the witnesses was a Catherine Carroll., and it occurs to me that she is still missing. I have no idea what relative or age she was or where she was born.
The 1891 Carrolls found by Ambly fit well with the 1841 ones found by you.
and fits with Thomas birthplace being actually Corfu.
The ages for Thomas and Jane in 1891 (51 and 42) are slightly out with the 1871 Thomas and Jane (32 and 25) but it wouldn't be the first time a lady lost a few years as she got older. Birthplaces again a problem!
I suppose it moght help if I could find the marriage for 1871 Thomas Carroll and Jane Biggs/Briggs/Buggs to see what he reckoned his father was called but I've not had any luck with that so far.
Any suggestions welcome!
Fennawright
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1901: 249 Halesowen Road Rowley Regis, Staffordshire
RG13 / Piece: 2732 / Folio: 86 / Page: 5
Head: Sarah CAVE 48, wid, b Old Hill, Staffs
Mother: Sarah POWELL 80, wid, b Old Hill, Staffs
Grandson: Thomas JOHNSON 4, b Old Hill, Staffs
Boarder: Thomas CARROLE 61, wid, b Island of Corfue, Greece FS
Cheers
AMBLY
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Mary's marriage certificate gives her father as Thomas Carroll, green grocer.
Are you 100% certain that this is the correct certificate? If so, the family we have been following can't be the right one as that Mary and Thomas's father was John who was a soldier.
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Yes it is the right marriage certificate.
Mary Carroll married Joseph McCormick in 1861 and daughter Catherine was born 29 April 1864 in Landport. Birth certificate gives the names of Mary and Joseph as her parents.
Then Catherine McCormick is with Thomas Carroll as his niece in 1871.
I wonder if 1841 Dorothy was married more than once?
Or as relationships are not given in 1841 it's possible Mary and Thomas are niece and nephew?
Fennawright
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An auction I think (back in 2006), Medals of John CARROLL:
Dehttp://www.dnw.co.uk/medals/auctionarchive/searchcataloguearchive/itemdetail.lasso?itemid=54716scription
"Pair: Serjeant J. Carroll, 53rd Foot
Sutlej 1845-46, for Sobraon 1846 (Serjt. John Carroll, 53rd Foot); Army L.S. & G.C., V.R., 1st issue, large reverse letters (John Carroll, Sergt., 53rd Regt), naming engraved in large serifed capitals, with steel claw and straight bar suspension, some contact marks, minor edge bruising, nearly very fine and better ........"
Cheers
AMBLY
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Thanks Ambly
and it looks like another member of the family's medals were sold too.
It's just occurred to me that if this is not the right family, then the Thomas Carroll born in Corfu should be on the 1871 census somewhere as well.
Can anyone spot him?
Fennawright
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Hi
I'm still not convinced that these are all the same family.
If you are sure that the 1871 family are yours then that doesn't fit with the 1881 and later censuses.
In 1871 the places of birth for Thomas is Portsmouth and for Jane and her father also Hampshire, something ----ham. However in the other censuses Thomas is given as being born on Corfu and Jane as being born in West Bromwich. I have a feeling that it is just a coincidence that there are two Thomas Carrolls married to a Jane.
I think you might have to get the birth certificate of Vernon John Carroll, as that will give his mother's maiden name. If it is not Biggs that will eliminate that family. It does seem to me as if that family stayed around the West Bromwich area
Vernon John Carroll
June quarter 1878
West Bromwich
6b 871
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Out of interest, do you know when your Thomas and Jane died?
Vernon John Carroll has a war record from WW1. He was a shoemaker and served in the Militia before joining the army. He states on one form that he has no relatives and gives a friend as next of kin. This is then crossed out as in 1910 he marries Florence Taylor and they have a daughter Gladys Irene. He served in South Africa, Ceylon, East Indies and France.
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I've been trying to find another Thomas Carroll in 1871 born in Corfu or Greece
or with a wife Jane but no luck so far.
Getting Vernon John Carroll's birth certificate is a good idea to check mother's maiden name.
I reckon the orignal couple in 1871 had Thomas born Portsmouth and Jane and her father born Fareham, Hampshire.
I don't know when they died.
Fennawright
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This is a strange one, but the fact that there are so many discrepancies does make me think it is wrong:
1. Place of birth of Thomas and Jane in 1871, which you know is the correct family because of the niece. The other Thomas and
Jane are fairly consistent as being born Corfu and West Bromwich and they stay around that area.
2. Mary's marriage certificate (which you know is correct) gives her father as Thomas Carroll a grocer, not John Carroll a soldier
3. Ages
The problem with finding Thomas born Corfu in 1871 is that he probably wasn't married and could be anywhere, even abroad if he was still with his family. We also need to find your family after 1871 dont we, but if he was a sailor maybe he was abroad and Jane is on her own somewhere.
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In 1881 John Biggs, Jane's father is still in Hampshire
John Biggs aged 64 (knocked a bit off his age)
born Titchfield Hampshire
Fareham Union Workhouse
Widower
Pauper, formerly a labourer
Blind
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Oh look what I've found, could this be why we cant find your Thomas and Jane after 1871?
Deaths
Thomas Carroll
March quarter 1873
aged 31
Alverstoke Hampshire
2b 316
Alverstoke is where they were living in 1871.
Then
Marriage
Jane Carroll
June quarter 1889
Alverstoke 2b 953
to either Henry McCloud or George Wallace. That certificate would tell you if she was a widow with the maiden name of Biggs.
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Poor John Biggs.
If those are Thomas and Jane and she married again in 1889, then she should be a widow on the 1881 somewhere.
Age on death for Thomas is a bit out. He was 32 in 1871 so should be 34 in 1873.
Fennawright
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Jane Carroll married Henry McCloud but I'm not sure she is yours unless she knocked quite a few years off her age because Henry was so much younger than her. If she is the correct one, the 2 Carroll children are obviously not Thomas's children.
I wouldn't worry too much about the age difference in the death certificate as ages were often not exact.
1891 RG12; Piece: 866; Folio: 102; Page: 7
Henry McCloud 29 Bricklayers Lab Devon Port Hampshire
Jane McCloud 32 Gosport Hampshire
Harry Carrell 5 Lambeth London
Mary Carrell 3 Gosport Hants
Louisa McCloud 6 months Portsmouth
Mary A Robins 69 lodger Portsmouth
However, this family are also in the 1901 census with Jane's age given as 43 and with 5 more children, the youngest Kate aged 6 months. Therefore I dont think this is your Jane as she would have actually been 55 by then and probably wouldn't still be producing a child every 2 years. The only way to prove/disprove it is to get the certificate, unless anyone has access to the Parish records.
Found this site, but can't see them http://www.knightroots.co.uk/parishes.htm Alverstoke, comes under Gosport.
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That's clever to find that Jane of the 1889 marriage married to Henry McCloud.
I agree that her age and having later children makes her unlikely to be the right Jane.
Thanks
Fennawright
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I've been going to sleep at night counting Thomas Carrols!
I've found a grocer called Thomas Carrol age 40 in 1861.
His wife called Joane (or possibly Irene?) age 38.
Both born Ireland.
The occupation and their ages mean they could be parents of Thomas and Mary.
BUT they were in Bristol at 1 Broadmead. (RG9 1720 f16 p1)
My head is spinning now and I would appreciate people's thoughts on this
Fennawright
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Hi
I wonder if this is the same Thomas Carroll in 1871
Thomas Carroll widower 52 labourer Ireland
John Carroll son 14 Gloucestershire
Tom Carroll son 4 Gloucestershire
RG 10/2556/16/24
New Street Bristol
If it is him, he cant be yours as according to Mary he had died by the time she married in 1861. Also there is another son called Tom, unless this is a mistake and it is a grandson ie your Thomas's son.
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Hi :)
I keep coming back to this one and pondering, each time as new reply is posted - the intrigue is captivating ;D
Fennawright, forgive me if I've missed something along the way, but is it that the 1871 neice, Catherine McCORMICK is your starting point (ancestor)? And therefore you're trying to go back through her mother Mary CARROLL's line?
....I was wondering what became of Mary & her husband Joseph McCORMICK and/or where Catherine was in 1881 etc?
Cheers
AMBLY
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Hi
I don't think it can be the same one because son John is 14 in 1871 and
so John is old enough to be on the previous census.
He should be age 4 and with his parents in 1861.
Fennawright
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Hi AMBLY
Yes Catherine is my direct ancestor and her mother Mary too.
However I couldn't get any family with Mary on a census so thought I'd try
Thomas as a starting point instead.
Joseph McCormick married again in Portsea in 1874 and it looks like he and his new wife were the witnesses on Catherine's marriage in 1882.
Fennawright
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Where did Mary marry, was that in the Portsmouth area? If so it does look as if we are looking for a family from Hampshire.
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Hi
So Mary was deceased by 1871 :'( - Joseph, a shipwright (1881) and a Carpenter's mate (1871) b abt 1840 Portsmouth is a widower in the 1871 Census (have you got that one)?
Was there a specific address for Mary on the marriage certificate?
Cheers
AMBLY
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Hi
Yes it does look like they should be from Hampshire, but finding them is a problem!
Mary's address was 4 Portland Terrace on the wedding certificate .
Yes, Joseph McCormick age 40/42 in 1881 , shipwright/shipwright pensr and widower in 1871 age 32.
In 1851 Joseph (again in Orange St) age 10 with parents.
Can't find him in other censuses.
Fennawright