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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: ghostgirl on Saturday 05 May 12 03:47 BST (UK)
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John James BURT (b1838 d1905), a pawnbroker, married Ann Jane WILLIAMS (b c 1839) in 1860 in Liverpool, LANCS. In Dec 1865, they arrived in Brisbane QLD, on the "Queen of the South", with their daughter Minnie Edith, aged 2.
By 1871, John J BURT is in Sydney, NSW, and had entered into a business partnership there, eventually becoming a pawnbroker once again. Although I can find information on John, and on their daughter Minnie, I can find nothing on Ann Jane Burt, his wife. In 1882 their daughter Minnie married Mark Annesley WILLIAMSON, and there is a notice in the Sydney Morning Herald - however only the bride and grooms fathers are named. In 1905 John James Burt died. In 1906, Mark Annesley WILLIAMSON died, and in 1908, Minnie Williamson (Burt) died.
I haven't been able to find a death or any other record of Ann Jane Burt, in QLD or NSW. Can anybody please help me find out what happened to her?
Thank you ???
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There is an Ann Jane Burt, Pawn Shop owner in the SMH of 18 June 1908. (Find it on TROVE)
Her grandson, a lad by the name of Williamson was induced to take some of her trinkets and give them to a Mr Burke who was charged with stealing.
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Hi
What were Ann Jane's parents names please?
mum mum
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Hi
The article referred to, it does look like she survived them. There was also a Jane Ann Burt in Broken Hill in 1913, she died there in 1937, father Samuel.
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-page1314109
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Jane Ann at Broken Hill was aged 76.
There is info on Trove about her. It's not Ann.
Jamjar
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John James is buried at Waverley, with his niece May. Do you have the headstone details?
Jamjar
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I'm curious to know what they all died from. Minnie lost a child in 1902, then we have 1905, 1906 and 1908. ???
Jamjar
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So both Montague and Mark died as babies. Who then was the grandson in the pawn shop robbery - Walter would be 24 and not described as a lad?
I must be missing a boy ...?
cheers,
Ros
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No Mark Williamson died as a baby that I can find on BDM.
Their daughter Hyacinth and Montague seem to be the only two deaths from 1850 to 1981.
Jamjar
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Mark B married in 1921. ;)
Jamjar
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Whoops sorry Jamjar - my mistake. :-[
cheers,
Ros
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Both Mark and Walter served in WW1 and Walter was killed. Interesting letter in there about the misspelling of "Burt" on his memorial plaque. No letters from grandmother unfortunately.
Debra :)
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The 1909,1910, 1911, 1912 Sands Directories have Mrs A.J. BURT at Havelock Street, Drummoyne. The company was still called J.J. BURT & Co., Pawnbrokers, and was still at 155 George Street West. (Minnie's address was also Havelock Street when she died).
Debra :)
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A long shot, but she is a widow:
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/54337967?searchTerm=%22Ann%20burt%22&searchLimits=sortby=dateDesc
Jamjar
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There is an Ann Jane Burt, Pawn Shop owner in the SMH of 18 June 1908. (Find it on TROVE)
Her grandson, a lad by the name of Williamson was induced to take some of her trinkets and give them to a Mr Burke who was charged with stealing.
Wow!! i hadn't found this one, thank you John Bell
MumMum, Ann's parents were Robert and Eliza Williams.
jamjar, I hadn't found that burial, and I am very curious about the nice named May. Do you have any more information, or can you tell me where I can look it up please? Could answer a very old question that one.
The 1909,1910, 1911, 1912 Sands Directories have Mrs A.J. BURT at Havelock Street, Drummoyne. The company was still called J.J. BURT & Co., Pawnbrokers, and was still at 155 George Street West. (Minnie's address was also Havelock Street when she died).
Debra :)
Thank you Dundee, I didn't have that information.
Jamjar, Mark Annesley Williamson committed suicide - but I don't have the death certs for the other 2, so can't answer that one!! But yes, very close together and sad for the family I am sure.
Thank you all of you, for so many results in such a short time!! Fantastic!!!
Kathy :D
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Here is the info and inscription as written on CD
John James 7 November 1905 aged 64
My husband (insrc on urn - 'To our Grandpa')
Anglican 6 Select Row 37 1813, 1814
Also includes Grave nos 1815-1816 row 38
May Burt 29 September 1889 aged 17
Our niece
Now in Row 34 grave 1746, 1747 you have:
David Thomas and his wife Margaret. I'm not on the computer so don't have the other details. However, the inscription says: mother of Lily, Addie and Ella. Could these be the parents of May?
Note they have a Lily and so did Minnie.
I could not find the death of the niece on NSWBDM
Jamjar
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Where is Mark buried?
Jamjar
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Jamjar, that is SO EXCITING!!!
John James' brother, William Henry Burt, had a daughter, Mary E BURT, born in 1872 in St Columb Minor, Cornwall. A great Aunt (also named Mary but known as May, interestingly) said that she had apparently died aged 17. But I had been unable to find a death that I could confirm was hers (and she wasn't on the 1891 census). So May could be Mary! I just need to find her coming to Aust. Her father died in 1880 you see, and the children were a bit spread out after that, so it is possible that she came to Aust for a new life.
I don't know where Mark is buried, but he died in Drummoyne.
I can't find any close relationship to a Thomas family, unless Ann Jane's mother Eliza was one, haven't looked into that bit yet. John James' bro William Henry, married Mary Williams (no relation to Ann Jane) whose mother was Mary Thomas. But that's a bit longwinded isn't it!!!!
Wow, I am so excited about this. Other than Mary Burt born in Cornwall there is nobody that I know of who fits that bill!
Thank you so much Jamjar!!!
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Sorry it wasn't clear, it David Thomas Burt.
Jamjar
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Actually, 2 of Mary Burt's brothers ended up in Western Australia. One of them, however, Joseph Ernest, worked his way to sydney first, in 1887, on the Iberia. There is no mention of another Burt in the passenger list, although there are a few unnamed (ie - William Hutchinson and party, 8 in all). Being only 15, she could have been taken under someones wing I suppose. She also could have came out with the other brother, William Henry Burt Jnr. So I need to find his arrival now. Ooooh, this is fun...
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Mary E Burt parents William and Mary, died 1890 in Sydney NSWBDM
Jamjar
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Sorry it wasn't clear, it David Thomas Burt.
Jamjar
Oops. Excitement slightly dampened now!! Never heard of a David Thomas Burt though. Mind you, he could be an uncle of John James, as I have been unable to find any of John James' fathers family. Also, he might be completely unrelated!!! Will have to check out that family now, see if they did have a daughter May. Lots of work to go on with!!! :)
Have just read your next post, that could be her then!!!! Her parents were William and Mary. wow.
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Enjoy. :D
I'm out into the yard as it's too cold in the house. Shall check your progress later in the day.
Jamjar
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Have a lovely day :)
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Hope I am not duplicating earlier posts, I have skimmed only, sorry.
Hi there,
NSW ER 1913 DRUMMOYNE, polling at Drummoyne
Ann Jane BURT of Havelock St, dd
Lily Burt WILLIAMSON of Havelock St, dd
Violet Burt WILLIAMSON, of Havelock St, dd
NSW ER 1903 PARKES, polling at Drummoyne
Mark Annesley WILLIAMSON, Havelock St, solicitor
Minne WILLIAMSON, Havelock St, dd
NONE surnamed BURT on that 1903 roll for Drummoyne.
Cheers, JM
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Funeral notice.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0m2b/
Mark WILIAMSON is interred Field of Mars
Williamson Mark Annerley Age 46. 07/06/1906 SEC*A***77
Williamson Minnie Edith Age 41 19/06/1908 SEC*A***78
Williamson Hyacinth Bust (sic).Age 16 M. 13/11/1895 SEC*A***76
Williamson Montague J B. age 10 M. 23/10/1902 SEC*A***76
Sue
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Thanks JM and Sue - all very helpful!!!
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In 1913 MARK BURT WILLIAMSON was on the Electoral Roll.
Address Winton QLD.
Occ. Farmer
The address given is non-specific, (so may or may not be related) Also
WILLIAMSON , MARY.
Address Winton QLD
Occ. HD
WILLIAMSON, Arthur.
Address Winton QLD.
Occ Engineer
BERTHA, the woman MARK married in 1921, was born in NSW.
REG 4091 In 1888 ARENS BERTHA Parents ADOLPH & ANNA. At BALMAIN
The couple, after their mrriage remained in NSW
Sue
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BURT - September 29, at 155 George street West, Mary Ethel Burt aged 17 years.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0m2c/
So she was definitely living with John and Ann Jane's family. The headstone has the wrong name and wrong year, or perhaps it is diificult to read and is a mistranscription.
ghostgirl, do you know what happened to Minnie's daughters?
Debra :)
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I wonder how many Violet Burt WILLIAMSONs there are in the world?
WILLIAMSON, Miss Violet Burt, Orderly Girton Newnham 31-Jul-19 1-Dec-19
http://www.scarletfinders.co.uk/140.html
Debra :)
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In 1913 MARK BURT WILLIAMSON was on the Electoral Roll.
Address Winton QLD.
Occ. Farmer
Sue
When he went to war his occupation was a stationhand, so that could well be him, thank you. Not sure about Mary and Arhtur though.
Debra, thank you - That has to be her. It could be that the death wasn't registered until 1890. Also, I know of a few Mary's that have been known as May, so perhaps that was what they called her?
I don't know what happened to Lily and Violet, I do have Hyacinths' death as an infant (loved flowers obviously!). Other than that they were with their grandmother in 1913 (thanks Majm).
Can't be too many Violet Burt Williamsons Dundee!! That must be her too, I'll check it out - thanks!
This is all so fascinating, not that long ago I didn't know this family even existed.
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Answering my own question, the girls did go to the UK. Lily died unmarried 5 May 1951, and her estate went to Violet Burt LUPTON.
www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/39377/pages/5826/page.pdf
Violet married Alfred LUPTON in 1940.
http://freebmd.rootsweb.com/cgi/search.pl
Debra :)
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So, three possibilities: Ann went with the girls to the Uk, or she went to Qld to be with the Grandson. Or she is buried with hubby, but not added to the headstone.
She could be the widow in the newspaper article.
Jamjar
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Hi there,
From the 1909 Sydney Sands SUBURBAN directory (as opposed to Sands Alpha Directory)
Havelock Street, Lyons road to Wolseley street
East Side
Starting at Lyons Road and as far as Seymour Street
William OPPERMANN
Rev J. COSH, BA BD (Pres) [JM presumes Pres = Presbyterian]
David R MUIR
Mrs. A.J. BURT “Lilydale” (so the house name was Lilydale)
Seymour St ........
I am wondering if Havelock St has been renamed since 1909. I can clearly see Collingwood Street households in that 1909 Suburban list, and I can find Wright’s Road and Wolseley Street also. Interestingly, I cannot find Victoria Road mentioned under Drummoyne ! I can find Victoria Street Rozelle mentioned under Balmain. Ummm.... oh well, in the big picture, at least I can give you the house name, but not the exact house in Havelock St...
Back in the 1900 Sands Suburban directory for Drummoyne
Havelock St ran between Lyons Road and Wolseley St thus: (not sure if this is both sides of Havelock)
David R MUIR, stockbroker,
Mark A WILLIAMSON, solicitor, “Lilydale”
James Densmore
Seymour St
Cheers, JM
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Havelock St had a name change:
http://catalogue.nla.gov.au/Record/4085183
Jamjar
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Thanks Jamjar,
It seems to have had several changes then, those ones were 1893, I will see what I have for Suburban directories pre then too ! "Lilydale" mentions are from 1900 and 1909 suburban directories.
Cheers, JM
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The house was auctioned in August 1919
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0m2h/
I did find Lily and Violet arriving in the UK on the Mooltan, 14 Nov 1914 - alas no Ann with them.
There is an Ann BURT on the electoral rolls at Mt. Morgan going through to the 1940's - a bit old for our Ann I think.
Debra :)
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Hi there,
1892 Sands Suburban Directory for DRUMMOYNE including BOURKETOWN and BIRKENHEAD
“Boundaries – Commencing at the north west corner of Casey’s property on the southern side of Five Dock Bay; thence by a line bearing south easterly to Lyons road and forming boundary between Casey’s property and Ellebank; thence by a line passing through Rodd’s bush and bearing south easterly to the river at Five Dock Bay; and thence by the waters of Five Dock Bay to point of commencement.
Gazetted a Muynicipality 21st October, 1889”
“Mayor
Mark A WILLIAMSON
Aldermen
Drummoyne Ward : Mark A Williamson; W J Dillon; Michael S Foley
Bourke Ward: Patrick J Byrne; James Anderson; Joseph Sewell
Birkenhead Ward
Thomas Graves; John Carratt; George A Richards
Council Clerk, Overseer of Works, Inspector of Nuisances and Dairies
William A Coleman
Havelock St
Lyons Road to Wolesley St
David R MUIR, stockbroker
Mark A WILLIAMSON, solicitor ‘Lilydale’
Seymour Stret
William H PRIESTLY, commission agent ‘Earlswood’ ”
Cheers, JM
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As an aside,
I have a Michael Williamson, of the Belfast Wine Vaults, Botany Road, Redfern as a witness to a marriage in Sydney in the early 1850s, pre civil registrations. If you find a link, please let me know, as I have various bits and pieces on that chap (the couple whose marriage he witnessed are forebears of mine)
Cheers, JM.
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Sands Trades Directory 1891
Solicitors
WILLIAMSON John and Son 163 King St
Williamson and Williamson 146 King St
Thomas M Williamson, 79 Pitt St, Redfern.
Cheers, JM
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This really is overwhelming, thank you all of you.
So...
Sands Trades Directory 1891
Solicitors
WILLIAMSON John and Son 163 King St
Williamson and Williamson 146 King St
Thomas M Williamson, 79 Pitt St, Redfern.
Cheers, JM
According to their marriage notice, Mark A Williamson was the son of William Williamson, deceased, so this would likely not be him - may be a relative though.
Dundee, Majm, Jamjar, Sparret, all of you, thank you! I have so much to sift through now!!! Am wondering though, Jamjar - any chance of a bit more information on the David Thomas Burt buried in Waverly, and his family? I have found a David T Burt born in 1868 in Richmond River so William and Sarah. Also got a marriage for David T Burt and Margaret WOLLBACH in 1888 in Lismore. If I know how old he is I may be able to see if there is a connection. As far as I am aware, Minnie was the only child of John James Burt and Ann Jane Williams, but I may have just missed something, so I had better check.
Majm, if I find a connection to Michael I will certainly let you know. I did have some articles somewhere, but Michael doesn't ring a bell at the moment...
Thanks again, you've all made my day.
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Just a note here.
The Funeral Notice for MARK A WILLIAMSON which I have given does not list "mourners" by name as some do.
Apart from the very numerous items in the news about the actual suicide, I have not been able to locate a Death Notice as such which may have listed his family and so on.
Sue
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Thanks Sue - I have a small article on his death which doesn't mention his wife or children - but does mention his career and family connections, also that his Uncle is the John Williamson of John Williamson and son, Solicitors. I haven't found a death notice either - quite horrific though, must have been a huge shock for his family and the community.
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In graves 1746, 1747 Row 34
David 28 Oct 1952 aged 84 - Our Father
Margaret 3 March 1948 age 79 - Wife of David Thomas Mother of Lily, Addie, Ella
Adeline Lillian Turner 30 March 1967 aged 73 Our Mother
I would suggest that Adeline is Addie, married to a Turner.
Jamjar
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25912/1952 David Thomas father William and mother Sarah
1155/1948 Margaret father Adam and mother Mary
1548/1964 Adeline Lillian Turner father David Thomas and mother Margaret
Jamjar
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Ah, thanks Jamjar! Can't see a connection there, but it's good to know one way or the other!!
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I got that wrong. Lily was Mrs Turner and Adeline, Mrs Somerville.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0m2x/
Don't discount a connection. Always good to store these things, as you never know when a connection may pop up.
Jamjar
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Thanks Jamjar, you've been so helpful - still can't believe how much information I now have!! Time to order a certificate or 2 I think. :D
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Hi All,
Maybe a bit late - but just stumbled accross the post on google.
I am related to Adeline Lillian Burt (married John Leslie Turner) Her parents were David Thomas Burt and Margarent Woolbecke (spelt Woolbach on marriage cert).
Her husband John Leslie Turner is my great grand uncle.
If you would like any info - happy to email it through.
cheers
Brad Turner
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Wow, thank you Brad - I have had a bit of a look at David T and Margaret Burt, but haven't found where they were from before they came to Australia. I would love to know more, and see if we have a connection.
GG
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Good to see I'm not too late! I'll email you some reports / details on the Burt line...
David Thomas Burt and Margaret Wolsbecke had 3 Children; interestingly the family all called them by nicknames that are derived from their middle names.
Adeline Lillian Burt (called Lily) - married Turner
Lydia Adelaide Burt(called Addie) - married Somerville
Doreen Ella Burt (called Ella) - married Jovanovich
cheers
Brad
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Hi ghostgirl
Recently read through a discussion in which you and a few others had in May 2012 and these two names came up. William was the son of Michael and both ran the Belfast wine bar in Redfern, Sydney. I have a fair bit of information on both these two but am unable to find a death date or certificate for Michael which I presume was towards the end of the 1850's. William had a number of sons including Marcus (Mark) Annesely who also came into the discussion and Thomas Michael who is my great grandfather.
Can you help with any more information on Michael- born Ireland 1803, Married Annie Owens 1823, immigrated to Australia in 1840- particularly his death.
Regards, Mikewill
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Hi Mike
I wish I could help - but my main interest is the Burt line, through Mark Annesley Williamson's wife, Minnie Edith Burt. I don't know much at all about Mark's line. Sorry :-\
All the best
Kathy
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Hi Kathy
Thank you for your reply. This is my first time on this site so I hope I have followed protocol. I got some helpfull info from your discussion in May. All the best with your search.
Regards
Mike
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Hi Mike,
I realise that his father's name is incorrect in the indexes, but there is nothing unusual about that with a death cert. Have you checked this one...?
1737/1862
WILLIAMSON, MICHAEL
Father: MICHAEL
Mother: UNKNOWN MCDERMOTT
at CHIPPENDALE
His death and funeral notices say that he was aged 59, a native of Belfast and lived in Botany Road. These details match your Michael.
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article60506940
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article13227727
Debra :)
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Michael's wife Ann died in 1871 and I see that the informant incorrectly named her father as Edward, which was actually the name of Michael's father.
2075/1871
WILLIAMSON, ANN
Father: EDWARD
at REDFERN
Death notice
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article60878506
Debra :)
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Hi Debra
Thanks so much. I had been looking at the death certificate for Michael but discounted it. Don't know why. Have filled in most of the missing bits in Australia now. Irish records are much harder pre 1800's and early 1800's although I have a copy of Michael's and Annie's marriage in St Patricks Church Belfast in 1823. Have you got any connections with the Williamson family?
Thanks again.
Mike :D
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Hi everyone,
I'm not too sure if anyone else informed of Ann Jane Burt's (nee Williams) death but I found a death notice of a Mrs A J Burt, who died on the 5 September 1914 at Colombo, late of Lilydale, Drummoyne, dearly loved grandma of Mr and Mrs Walter Williamson of Wilson-Rd, Arncliffe. I think it was the Sydney Morning Herald
This is Ann Jane Burt nee Williams ;)
Paula
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Wow thank you! Don't know why I hadn't come across this before, but it fits in perfectly, as her 2 grand daighters who were living with her, left for England in Nov 1914. Thanks so much :)
GG
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Glad to help Ghostgirl, can I ask how you are related to Ann Jane? I'm distantly related via the Annesley's which I'm currently writing a book that will be including Ann Jane and her children and descendants to some extent.
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;D
I think you and I may have been communicating via Ancestry!!! I'm connected to the Burt side...
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Oh yes....hello there, we spoke in last week or so sometime there.... ;)