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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: goddles1 on Friday 04 May 12 13:09 BST (UK)
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If you have access to the index, I would be grateful for a check of the following:
Biographical Index of South Australia - Francis (Frank) McGUIRE - ref. no. 1068/3 (reference was found on an immigration / shipping site).
Francis J McGuire (a bootmaker) married in 1870 in SA to Elizabeth Kearney but she died in 1875. Apart from trying to find out more about Francis (where came from, where lived, his death, etc), I'd like to learn anything about Francis' son, John McGuire ,who it is believed was born in SA circa 1870. The 1874 birth of John's sister, Mary Elizabeth McGuire, has been confirmed.
At some stage John went to Qld, where he married; he and his wife died in Sydney in 1940s (already verified). John's elderly grandaughter tells of John’s mother dying when John was quite young and his father remarrying. It may be that John's relationship with father / step-mother was strained, because their is a family story about step-mother leaving her estate to a religious order / Convent.
Any assistance will be greatly appreciated.
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MCGUIRE Francis
Lived Yankalilla
Religion Roman Catholic
Married 27 Feb 1870 Yankalilla SA Eliz nee KEARNEY
Cando
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Australia Marriage Index, 1788-1950
Francis Mcguire son of John Mcguire m Elizabeth Kearney daughter of Walter Kearney
27 Feb 1870 Yankalilla South Australia
Vol 83 p 181
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So we have an age for Francis.
Marriage
MCGUIRE Francis 21 years Status Single Father John McQUIRE
KEARNEY Elizabeth 18 yars Status Single Father Walter KEARNER
27 Feb 1870
At St Peter Church Yankalilla Yan 83/181
There is no birth registered for a John M* with parents Frank/Francis and Elizabeth KEARNEY. I have searched thoroughly. Only one birth and that was in 1874 and you have that. Unfortunately not all births were registered and many registrations did not make it to the central Registry. I guess a search of parish records at Yankalilla may help you. I can't help you with that as I don't live in SA.
Francis in a spot of bother in 1871 in Yankalilla
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0lzr/
Cando
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Thank you Cando & Robert for the detailed marriage information. I will have to find out how to have church records searched. I had seen the 1871 court report - it sounds like he and his mate had a bit of a night on the town!
I'm still hoping the entry in the Biographical index of SA might reveal more, and perhaps the step-mother did leave a will. Any suggestions on how to check this out? I too am not located in that area.
Thanks again.
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MCGUIRE Francis
Lived Yankalilla
Religion Roman Catholic
Married 27 Feb 1870 Yankalilla SA Eliz nee KEARNEY
Cando
The above post by Cando was the info in BISA about Francis.
The second marriage was in 1877.
Francis J MAGUIRE aged 28, a widower, son of John
married 13 Apr 1877 in St Laurence Church North Adelaide
to Sarah Jane SPURR aged 23 and single, daughter of William SPURR
Ade/111/212
This marriage was also in BISA with no further details except Francis was then resident at Bowden.
No children recorded either for this couple but then it was not uncommon as many RC parents did not register their children in that era.
Essie
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Francis J McQUIRE bootmaker, insolvent 1877 Port Pirie
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0m0u/
Cando
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Someone looking for Francis MCGUIRE in 1911. They knew he was near Port Pirie then at Bowden when he married the second time.
The Advertiser (Adelaide, SA : 1889 - 1931) <Saturday 25 March 1911>
FRANCIS JOHN McGUIRE, late of Crystal Brook and Bowden,
will hear something to his advantage by applying to Box 5, Crystal Brook.
Essie
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1903 SA Post Office Directory:-
McGUIRE Frank, Junction Hotel, Petersburg (that is Pt Pirie area) * Peterborough* - apologies
McGUIRE Frank, moulder, Angaston St., Alberton
McGUIRE Jno., labourer, Lipson St., Pt Adelaide
McGUIRE John, farmer, Crystal Brook
McGUIIRE John, farmer, Gladstone
Regards,
Sashar
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Sashar I think Petersburg was the former name of Peterborough.
There appear to be two families...one at Port Adelaide and Kapunda. Lots of information on TROVE. The families are also noted as MAGUIRE which doesn't make for easy research.
Cheers
Cando
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Hi,
1865 South Australian Almanac & Directory
KADINA, MOONTA & WALLAROO
Maguire Francis, smelter, Wallaroo.
KAPUNDA, LIGHT & BELVIDERE
Maguire Francis, carpenter, Kapunda Mine.
Gerry
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Thank you Cando (& Essie) for the BIAS details. Also, thank you to everyone for the helpful input. It has added to our knowledge and given us more of leads to follow.
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I just picked up this 2012 post, doing own fam. hist. of same name. Are you located UK?
A railway employee Frank McGuire dob:28Dec1869, location Petersburg (now Peterborough), record exist.
Same as earlier posts, cannot track birth John, f:Francis.
BISA has inaccuracies.
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Hi mcgesc
I wonder which birth year was correct - 1868 or 1869?
A Francis MAGUIRE and Mary MULLINS/MULLEN had a son Francis born ‘1868-12-28’ (according to the CD Index) at Koonunga near Kapunda. Reg. Kap/book 31/page 491
A daughter Ann was born 20 Jan 1865 at Wallaroo Bay
Francis MAGUIRE aged 25, father named Michael, married 8 Jun 1861 at Kapunda to Mary MULLIN.
A Francis MCGUIRE died 11 Feb 1870 at Mount Bagots Head Station near Kapunda. (I believe Bagots Head Station was actually at Koonunga)
Rhonda
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Yep, I've seen the Book/Page 46/375 marriage Francis & Mary Mullin (f:Thady Mullin) at St John nr Kapunda.
The SAR record shows Frank in service 1891 - 1895 (resigned), and so it is possible the dob entered is 1 year wrong. The handwriting is clearly "9", On other hand, the SA BDM record could be 1 year out. The 'official SA Govt records were compiled from local church records, despatched on an adhoc basis to Adelaide. Also, being late Dec, registration would occur the next yr. It is not uncommon for ppl to quote the prev. yr.
I know descendants of the Francis from Bagots Hd Stn. Shall check if he fathered a John.
There were several McGuire families in SA 1850+, time for accurate mapping.
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The official SA Govt records were compiled from local church records, despatched on an adhoc basis to Adelaide.
Your statement is not quite accurate. I usually link this interesting article but find that many don't bother to read links. There is also a book about the SA BDM's and its inherent problems in South Australia but unfortunately long out of print. I hope you find the following interesting and informative.
In July 1842 the colony was effectively divided into two District Registries based on Port Lincoln and Adelaide headed by District Registrars answerable to the Principal Registrar in Adelaide. Every 6 months the District Registrar had to file a copy of his certificates with the Principal Registrar. All people living outside the defined areas had to make their way to the nearest Deputy Registrar.
Parents were compelled to register births within 6 weeks or face a £10 fine. Some late registrations had their birth dates adjusted to comply with this requirement and avoid the fine, while other just failed to register. Some groups in the community and especially Catholics and Scots were reticent to register births.
The responsibility for reporting marriages lay with the celebrants who had to supply a return to the District Registrar every quarter.
At the peak of the system there were 22 districts. Within each district, agents were set up to service local areas. They were local people of some repute, such as a postal officer, a police officer or a landowner. Their task was to pass on notification to the District Registrar who in turn created two certificates, one of which was retained and the other forwarded to the Principal Registrar as the official record. There are a considerable number of known differences between the two certificates.
There were many opportunities for events to be not registered or the registration to be lost in the chain of reporting.
Cheers :)
Cando
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I read your blue text refers to reporting mechanism, as it was designed to work.
Humans are human; and droughts, floods and sickness and staff-changes will foul any system from time to time.
Given (your quote) "All people living outside the defined areas had to make their way to the nearest Deputy Registrar." the adhoc basis is supported.
Your statement "Some groups in the community and especially Catholics and Scots were reticent to register births" is interesting. Do you have firm evidence?
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Your statement "Some groups in the community and especially Catholics and Scots were reticent to register births" is interesting. Do you have firm evidence?
I cannot speak for Sth Australia's citizens, but I can definitely confirm that there were very serious issues along those lines in the colony of New South Wales. It revolved around civil laws and if they were trying to impose secular rules as superior to Church Laws.... In NSW the debates raged in NSW Parliament for decades.... One of the signifant issues for family history buffs is that in NSW BDM records, there are many records where only part of the information was sent through to the Registrar General's office.... NSW Reg Gen's office established for BDM 1856. Not until 1912 did the NSW BDM Reg Gen even start to get their 'house in order' re marriage registrations covering 1856-1895. They have not ever completed that task. I see no reason to suspect that the issues in the 1840s for South Australia would be any different from the issues for the 1840s NSW in the debates for Church v State.
Cheers, JM
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Very interesting social history. Undoubtedly citizen reticence and clerical errors, all mixed with varying degrees of illiteracy, have created challenges for today's researchers.
BDM (NSW at least) also have a policy of not amending a certificate, post issue. Some BDM officers have the belief their duty if to record the data as submitted by the informant. Data submitted to BDM is not verified or reconciled.
Where an elderly or frail person is the informant, memory and/or health can result in less than 100% accuracy. The data on any cert. is only as sound as the knowledge of the informant.
Not relying totally on BDM; but striking a balance between local contemporaneous knowledge and official bureaucracy seems practical.
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Very interesting social history. Undoubtedly citizen reticence and clerical errors, all mixed with varying degrees of illiteracy, have created challenges for today's researchers.
BDM (NSW at least) also have a policy of not amending a certificate, post issue. Some BDM officers have the belief their duty if to record the data as submitted by the informant. Data submitted to BDM is not verified or reconciled.
Where an elderly or frail person is the informant, memory and/or health can result in less than 100% accuracy. The data on any cert. is only as sound as the knowledge of the informant.
Not relying totally on BDM; but striking a balance between local contemporaneous knowledge and official bureaucracy seems practical.
I think you will find that fh buffs have long understood that certificates from BDM offices are copies of official records, and that the issuing bodies are certifying that the document is correct TO THEIR holdings. I doubt that any BDM offices anywhere in the whole world have ever undertaken to establish their own holdings to be factual in every piece of information noted in each and every document.
Cheers, JM
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Absolutely true. http://www.rootschat.com/forum/Smileys/classic/smiley.gif
Unf. some http://www.rootschat.com/forum/Smileys/classic/undecided.gif will take total faith in the Official Documentation - much of our modern social activities: banking, applications for school, drivers' licence etc., rely on OD
As for cross-checking & recon., authorities such as AFP/INTERPOL, ATO (Tax offices worldwide) and Dept Immigration are well-versed.
Perhaps with DNA and futuristic micro-chipping BDM will become rock-solid for data integrity!http://www.rootschat.com/forum/Smileys/classic/kiss.gif
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Your statement "Some groups in the community and especially Catholics and Scots were reticent to register births" is interesting. Do you have firm evidence?
I think I have some evidence for this. About 3 years ago I contacted the Catholic Archdiocesan Archive in Adelaide. Requesting a check of their Baptism Registers for 3 of my Irish Catholic relatives. They were able to find two of them and they sent me a copy of the entries.
There were actually two pages of baptisms' with about thirty baptisms in all.
I'll been checking these names on the Genealogy of South Australia website - and I'm surprised how many of them I can't find.
My 3 Irish Catholic rellies do not appear on this SA Index either - their birth years were 1858 - 1863? Evidently 2 of them were baptised what happened to the third is not clear. I know she existed because I am here.
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What a great way to cross-check. Good thinking.
I assume you're checking against the online index GeneSA, launched 2012.
A few thoughts:
You've allowed for the Latin spelling of their names?
Do they appear in the older CDROMs by Gould?
Apparently the Gould data was hand-gathered (using a blunt term), from many sources. And the new online GeneSA database was loaded directly from the Govt. BDM, instead of the in-house SAGHS - this according to the information SAGHS gave me.
Maybe, at the time the established socio-religious habits stuck fast. Another baby arrives, it is registered when the next RC father visits your locality - miles from anywhere!!
I've been told that the visiting clergy (any faith) were to send into Adelaide (or other Civil Reg. centres) a return of the registrations on some periodic basis. In short the clergy were voluntary collection agencies and clerks for SA Govt BDM. I should read up on that, somehow, to see what the arrangements were.
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What a great way to cross-check. Good thinking.
I assume you're checking against the online index GeneSA, launched 2012.
A few thoughts:
You've allowed for the Latin spelling of their names?
Do they appear in the older CDROMs by Gould?
At the moment (or when I have more time I will check the others on these two sheets of baptisms I have) - this is the link to the Online Index I'm using at present....
http://www.genealogysa.org.au/
When time permits I will check at my local Library, they have or had the (SA) CD-Roms - which they have put onto Computers in the Genealogy section.
These CD - Roms would be from MacBeath Genealogy Services (Digger Indexes). Probably sold through 'Goulds' too.
The names are all in English 'no Latin spellings'.
I was really happy to receive the Baptisms for my two rellies, because it recorded the names of their sponsors.
Sarra
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Hi again :) (http://:)). Yes the GeneSA site is the new look SAGHS with the v. useful online search. Their logo of a jig-saw puzzle the shape of SA is very clever, I feel.
When I first saw the 1862 register from St Patricks Nth Ade, I thought I been sent the wrong family!! Jacobum - Who?! ??? (http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php???)
Which church for your relatives?
I've not yet seen a Baptism register, can you explain "names of sponsors"? Thanks
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Sorry. forgot to mention - Yes the CD ROM I meant is the MacBeath, as you gave the full and correct name.
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I've not yet seen a Baptism register, can you explain "names of sponsors"?
I have quite a collection of Baptismal records, including Baptismal certificates. My own certificate lists my sponsors. These are my Godparents, chosen by my parents. The Early Church Records (ie pre civil registration) that NSW BDM holds often include sponsors on their baptismal records where these were noted on the parish registers. When you order an ECR from NSW BDM there is provision to include sponsors. I have seen similar details noted on parish registers from other colonies and from other countries.
Cheers JM
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Hi
NSW BDM have amended my marriage certificate which had incorrect information.
Muss
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Was that a recent Marriage Cert?
I had similar success with a typo. (McGuire, as Mcguire) on a Death Cert. issued Nov 2012. On phoning NSW BMD I was read the riot act "We have issued a Certificate according to the information supplied by the informant. Are you the informant?" etc etc then told "send us the original and reason for change, and supporting evidence, and we will consider your application."
I happened to be in Sydney, visited the office, waited 30 mins, interviewed by a Senior Clerk, approved, and left with the freshly printed corrected DC - all up 2 hours. It was a Friday, maybe that made a difference!!
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BDM (NSW at least) also have a policy of not amending a certificate, post issue. Some BDM officers have the belief their duty if to record the data as submitted by the informant. Data submitted to BDM is not verified or reconciled.
On phoning NSW BMD I was read the riot act "We have issued a Certificate according to the information supplied by the informant. Are you the informant?" etc etc then told "send us the original and reason for change, and supporting evidence, and we will consider your application."
I happened to be in Sydney, visited the office, waited 30 mins, interviewed by a Senior Clerk, approved, and left with the freshly printed corrected DC - all up 2 hours. It was a Friday, maybe that made a difference!!
I am somewhat confused as to the point being made re NSW BDM.
ADDING, I have just checked a RESTRICTED death certificate issued by NSW BDM I hold (I was informant, it was for a death THIS century). The family name is in CAPITAL LETTERS.... so I really am getting confused re comments McGuire v Mcguire and NSW BDM
Cheers, JM
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Based on personal 2012 experience the NSW BMD operated with a variable policy. Bottom line: Errors in BMD can exist.
As known by historians/archivists 'official records' do not necessarily equate to fact.
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Yes, I am quite sure that errors in BDM records can and do exist. I am also quite sure that we are simply re-iterating 'old' ground in our comments re official records and that we are getting off track to the original topic ....
Cheers, JM
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Totally agree re reiteration. I had responded to the confusion "as to the point being made re NSW BDM"
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HI
The wedding was 43 years ago. the correction about 15 years ago
Muss
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If you have access to the index, I would be grateful for a check of the following:
Biographical Index of South Australia - Francis (Frank) McGUIRE - ref. no. 1068/3 (reference was found on an immigration / shipping site).
Francis J McGuire (a bootmaker) married in 1870 in SA to Elizabeth Kearney but she died in 1875. Apart from trying to find out more about Francis (where came from, where lived, his death, etc), I'd like to learn anything about Francis' son, John McGuire ,who it is believed was born in SA circa 1870. The 1874 birth of John's sister, Mary Elizabeth McGuire, has been confirmed.
At some stage John went to Qld, where he married; he and his wife died in Sydney in 1940s (already verified). John's elderly grandaughter tells of John’s mother dying when John was quite young and his father remarrying. It may be that John's relationship with father / step-mother was strained, because their is a family story about step-mother leaving her estate to a religious order / Convent.
Any assistance will be greatly appreciated.
Getting back on track goodles1 :).
So to date....
BISA
McGUIRE Francis
Lived Yankalilla
Religion Roman Catholic
Married 27 Feb 1870 Yankalilla SA Eliz nee KEARNEY
South Australian Register 12 Jul 1871
NORMANVILLE : TUESDAY, JULY 4; [Before Messrs. S. Herbert, J.P., and J. Heathcote, J.P.]
Job Pearson and Francis McGuire, on the information of Police-Trooper Laurence, were fined £2 each and £1 costs for riotous conduct, and removing several gates, and slip-panels in Yankalilla on the night of Tuesday, June 27.
Death
McGUIRE Elizabeth A
30 Apr 1875 24 years Status Married Relative Francis McGUIRE [Husband]
Residence Port Pirie Death Place Port Pirie Cla 66/137
I can't find a cemetery record for Elizabeth at Port Pirie but not all burials have been transcribed to the Council's online database.
BISA
McGUIRE Francis J
Lived Bowden
Religion Roman Catholic
Married 13 Apr 1877 North Adelaide SA Sarah Jane nee SPURR
MAGUIRE Francis J 28 years Status Widower Father John MAGUIRE
SPURR Sarah Jane 23 years Status Single Father William SPURR
13 Apr 1877
At St Laurence Church North Adelaide Ade 111/212
Francis J McQUIRE bootmaker, insolvent 19 Apr 1877 Port Pirie
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0m0u/
I cannot find a death in South Australia for either Francis J or Sarah Jane McQUIRE including spelling variations of the surname. Perhaps they moved to Queensland. Does your contact know where Sarah died. If the family story is correct then there should be a Will and probate grant.
As I mentioned previously, there are a number of Francis McQUIRE/MAGUIRE in South Australia in the era. The hotelier on the electoral roll at Port Pirie had a wife, Mary.
Perhaps you should be searching in other states for Francis and Sarah's deaths.
Cheers :)
Cando
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Births in Queensland with Parents John DUNNE and Ann COSS
1865/C1622 Richard
1867/C2181 William
1869/C2604 Catherine
1871/C2315 John
1873/C816 James Patrick
1874/C1093 Michael
1876/C1845 Mathew
1878/C2239 Joseph
1880/C2720 Bridget
Marriage in Queensland
1889/C850
McGUIRE John
DUNNE Catherine
Births in Queensland to John McQUIRE and Catherine DUNNE
1892/C5589 Annie Elizabeth
1893/C5083 Elizabeth Muriel
1896/C4761 Catherine Mary
1900/C5198 John Francis
1902/C5150 Mary Eileen
1907/C5378 Doreen Annie
Deaths in NSW
15991/1946
McGUIRE John
Father Francis Mother Elizabeth
District Burwood
1219/1945
McGUIRE Catherine
Father John Mother Ann
District Burwood
Australian Electoral Roll
1903
McGUIRE Catherine Woolgar Street, Gympie HD
McGUIRE John Woolgar Street, Gympie Miner
1905, 1909
McGUIRE Catherine Nelson Road, Gympie HD
McGUIRE John Nelson Road, Gympie miner
1913
McGUIRE Catherine Many Peaks HD
McGUIRE John Many Peaks Miner
1930, 1933
McGUIRE Catherine 78 Burwood Road, Concord HD
McGUIRE John 78 Burwood Road, Concord Labourer
1943
McGUIRE Catherine 49 Blenheim Street, Enfield HD
McGUIRE John 49 Blenheim Street, Enfield No occupation
Sydney Morning Herald 12 Jan 1945
McGUIRE- January 11 1945 at her residence 49 Blenheim Street Enfield Catherine dearly beloved wife of John McGuire and loving mother of Elizabeth "Muriel 'Mrs Norman) Catherine (Mrs McAllister) Eileen (Mrs Brunton deceased) Doreen (Mrs Bond) and grandmother of John Brunton, Henry, Jack, Ray Norman and Neville McAllister, in her 75th year Requierscat In pace. For funeral notice see Saturday’s “Herald”.
McGUIRE-January 11 1945 at her residence 49 Blenheim Street Enfield Catherine dearlv beloved wife of John McGuire and loving sister of William James Joseph and Bridget of Queensland RIP
Sydney Morning Herald Sat 13 Jan 1945
MCGUIRE.-The Relatives and Friends of Mr. John McGuire and Family, of 49 Blenheim .Street, Enfield, are kindly invited to attend the Funeral of his beloved Wife and their Mother. Catherine; to leave St. Joseph's Church, Burwood Heights, This (Saturday) Afternoon, at 2.45 o'clock, for Catholic Cemetery. Rookwood, No. 3 Mortuary, section 10. P. Byrnes and Co. Pty., Limited. Funeral Directors. .
The Sydney Morning Herald Saturday 29 Jun 1946
McGUIRE – Holy mass for the repose of the Soul of the late Mr John McGuire of 49 Blenheim Street, Enfield, will be celebrated at St Joseph’s Church, Burwood Heights, This (Saturday) Morning, at 6.45 o’clock.
McGUIRE – The Relatives and Friends of Mr. and Mrs. H G Norman and Family, of Wootton, Mrs C McAllister and Family, of Concord, Mrs A Bond and Family of Enfield and Mr Jack Bunton, of Enfield, are informed that the Funeral of their late dearly loved Father, Father-in-law, and Grandfather, Mr John McGuire, of 49 Blenheim Street, Enfield, will leave St Joseph’s Church, Burwood Heights, This (Saturday) Afternoon, at 3 o’clock, for Catholic Cemetery, Rookwood, Mortuary No 3. W N Bull Pty Ltd., AFDA Telephone LA2858.
There is no headstones for Catherine and John at Rookwood Catholic Cemetery according to my resource.
Cheers
Cando