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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: heapsofus on Friday 04 May 12 07:13 BST (UK)
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We would appreciate some help is finding a couple of missing persons. We have found a William Baker born in 1895 in Brisbane to an Alfred and Emily Baker who are direct ancestors in our tree. After that william seems to disappear (and so does Alfred!)
Emily remarried a William Ford in Mt Whitestone in 1903 and she died in 1906. Her other children had been in an orphanage in Rockhampton from 1889 - Harry being reunited with his mother in 1894 and Annie Louisa in 1903.
A grandaughter of Annie Louise remembers a man coming to her grandmother (Annie Louise) and saying that he was her brother William, this happened about 1954. She did not believe him - that she had any other brothers beside Harry (who was killed in WW1). So we think he may have either been adopted as a baby or maybe his father left with him. (Alfred had previously left his family hence the need to put the chilldren in an orphanage.)
Any help appreciated in solving this mystery - what happened to William!! (or even Alfred)
Thanks,
Wendy
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Hi
You say that the other children were placed in an orphanage around 1889, so did Alfred leave and then come back?
Do you have Williams birth certificate, or does the record show Alfred as his father?
In order to try to find Alfred and maybe have some idea if he had William with him, do you know Alfred parents, date of birth etc?
If Emily remarried its likely that alfred was dead or they had divorced, have you checked Trove?
mum mum
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I am not seeing birth records in QLD for Harry/Henry?/Harold? Baker, or Annie Louisa Baker, or marriage for Alfred Baker and Emily.
Births to Alfred Baker and Emily Lennon
1888/C10668 John Thomas BAKER
1895/B55899 William BAKER
Death
1906/C1238 Emily FORD parents Thomas LONSUM and Emma RICKETT
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Thank you both for replying and for your info - will try to answer questions.
Orphanage records say Alfred absconded but he must have returned around 1894-95.
The birth record on Qld BDM for William shows Alfred as father and Emily as mother. We don't know Alfred's parents names.
Alfred was born in 1860 we think in Bedfordshire. Emily born 1863 in Bedfordshire and they were married in 1883 in Bedfordshire.
Annie Louisa born in 1884 Bedfordshire and Albert Henry in 1886 in Bedfordshire. Family migrated to australia in 1886 with Harry dying on the ship.
The Harry that was in the orphange was actually John Thomas - Emily was mentally ill when she placed him in there and said his name was harry and that he was born in Ceylon! She was in an asylum for a while we are not sure for how long.
Hope this answers your questions - we really are finding it difficult just knowing where to look for William and Alfred - so your help is very much appreciated...
Wendy
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Hi
I think that to find William a good place to start would be to find out if Alfred possibly remarried and kept William with him. If William was adopted his name would have been changed.
Have you found Emily on the English census, with her family or with Alfred after their marriage. I may be worth while thinking about buying their marriage certificate from England as it will certainly have Alfreds parents names on it.
Another thing to look for would be Asylum records from places near where they were living, if they are surviving you would be able to access them now.
I see you seem to have seen the Orphanage records.
mum mum
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Hello Wendy,
Just took a look online at the Rockhampton Orphange registers.
http://www.archives.qld.gov.au/Researchers/Pages/Overview.aspx
Annie Lousia was born 22 Dec 1884 in Befordshire ENGLAND.
Admitted on 7 Dec 1889.
Harry BAKER 22 July 1888 in Ceylon
Admitted 16 Dec 1889
There are some notes attached to the file for Annie Louisa mentioning the mother already has a younger child and that Alfred has absconded leaving the family destitute. You can see the detail by checking the record.
The record for Harry is a much more grim outcome. Father asconded and warrant out for arrest, Mother insane and committed to Goodna Asylum.
There are a couple of deaths mentioned on the Trove newspapers for Alfred BAKER. Not sure if this related to your guy. Will go back and look again and give you some dates to look at and the link in next post.
Kind regards,
Laura
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ooops....
was back and forward from computer before posting and missed the interim posts...apologies!
There are number of newspaper articles from the Rockhampton area for 1896 mentioning Alfred BAKER in minor offences.
Do you have other information that Alfred returned in 1895-ish apart from the birth? I have found a number of cases in my own tree where children were given previous spouses names, when the previous spouse was either dead or not possibly the father. That is worth checking too.
Kind regards,
Laura
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Hi
It would be interesting to see Williams birth certificate, if only to find out Alfred's occupation. That may give a hint as to whether he is one of the Alfred Baker's mentioned in those newspaper articles.
There also appears to be an Alfred Baker who was droving cattle at the time.
Emily must have been a lucky woman to be released from the Asylum, they seemed to have a one way door badk then.
mum mum
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Hi
You say that Emily and Alfred are direct ancestors in your tree. Do you mean that they are Grandarents? If so its probably worth while spending the money on their marriage certificate from Bedfordshire.
mum mum
I see from the admission records at the orphanage that father Alfred was a labourer. From the index to admission register section B all the children should have a record the same as Annie Louisa's you would think. If you can find Williams it should give who he was living with. Perhaps if you contact the Archives.
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Hello Wendy and mum mum,
What area were Alfred and Emily living in in the 1890's? Were they close to Townsville/Rockhampton area?
There is a record for an Alfred BAKER in gaol at Stewart's Creek, Townsville in the potential time frame.
Records exist for Emily BAKER from Goodna Asylum
Police Gazettes should mention the warrant for desertion - and maybe a detail like his usual occupation.
All the above would be accessible to you through QLD State Archives if you can visit in person. Alternatively they can be ordered through various genealogists...for a fee :-\
I have obtained quite a number of Asylum records from NSW State Records in my research. I have found these to be extremely helpful, with lots of information about family connections.
Kind regards,
Laura
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Hi
You will need to get into the Archives, or have them search for you.
Then I think you are going to have to spend some money, Emily's 1903 marriage certificate should give details of if she was widowed or divorced. If it doesn't mention another husband, oops, we may have a bigamist. ::)
mum mum
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WOW! Thanks for all your replies - we'll go through them again tomorrow and follow up what we can. Getting to the Qld archives is a bit of a problem at the moment since we live in VIC :-\
I know I've said 'thanks' before but thank you again!!
Will keep you informed with what I find out.
Wendy
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Did Annie Louisa marry George Ellis Metcalf(e)?
If so then Harry/John Thomas signed up as Harry Harold Baker for WWI - and the file is marked to say his sister is his only living relative, so likely he didn't know anything about William either.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/52329398/5063642?searchTerm=
- from here, they were in Emerald.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/52330378/5063651?searchTerm=
here in 1890 Alfred Baker was up before court, charged with child desertion. He was discharged (supposed to pay 12s a week for their support), and the police magistrate was going to try and see if his wife couldn't be discharged from the "reception house", in which case if he took her away and provided a home for her, he could have his children back.
From the records from the Rockhampton orphanage, it doesn't appear that this happened - Harry was discharged in 1894 "to mother", not "to parents", so I think it's more likely that Emily came out of the asylum by herself and took him back, and Alfred may never had been back in the picture.
I went looking for the English records to see if that gave any hints - the marriage is, I think, at freebmd.rootsweb.com, in 1883 in Woburn district which is indeed Bedfordshire, but Emily's maiden name is indexed as "London" rather than "Lennon".
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/N6JG-GJ6
- also here, giving Alfred's father's name as Alfred and Emily's father as Thomas.
The nearest set on censuses are Alfred son of Alfred and Charlotte Baker nee Bradford (aged 10 in 1871, 20 in 1881 indexed as Barret living in Battlesden where he married).
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Could these be your Bakers immigration into Qld?
Alfred Baker age 26
Emily Baker age 23
Duke of Sutherland
arrived 30 Dec 1886
IMM/121 p 420 Z1963
More Bakers on the same ship:
Annie Baker age 1
Epraim Baker age 30
Henry Baker inf
Joseph Baker age 19
:-\
Cancel that - i just re-read the post and note that you already have this information.
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Hi Wendy
Try to contact the Queensland Archives, They should have a contact us option on the website. If they can find the records for William 'Willy' they should give the name of the family that he was raised by.
Maybe some other Rootschatter who visits the Archives may be able to help you.
mum mum
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To mum mum, Laura, jorose, wivenhoe, and Ruskie - You guys are great - the information has been very helpful and enlightening. We have checked trove and there are quite a few references to an Alfred Baker who seems to be a bit of a rogue.
Yes it was George Metcalfe that married Annie Louisa and yes we have found the war record for Harry- thankyou.
George Metcalfe is my husband's great grandfather. He remembers his great grandmother Annie Louisa she died in 1973 at the age of 88.
We have contacted the archives and will wait for a reply - will let you know what we are able to find out.
Bunches of flowers to you all,
Wendy
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Wendy, If you can get together a specific list of things you need from the Archives, I can go there and try to dig them up for you. I don't have much/any experience researching Asylum type records, (except a failed research attempt for someone in Dunwich, but that wasn't my fault as records were not available to the public :P) ... but I can ask the Archivist for help.
I take it you have checked their website to see if what you require is available?
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Hi Ruskie, I've never searched the archives myself - would if Icould though - your help would be appreciated. I wasn't really sure what to look for myself but have found a few things that may throw some light on the life of Emily Baker. I'm really not sure what to look for for William - will have to work on that one a bit more.
Here are some things we found on the Qld archives, they seem to be available.
We read on trove a newspaper article concerning Alfred before the court and the Polic Magistrate said that Emily had been at the Reception House for 3 weeks, we found this reference for the Reception House in Townsville: Emily would have been there around the end of 1889 to beginning of 1890.
Reception House for the insane Townsville
Admission Register and Statistics
C. 1/01/ 1886 - C. 31/12/1891
Series ID 10349
Maybe Emily Baker's record could be found here: We think it includes Goodna - but not sure
Public Curator Office Brisbane
Insanity Files C. 1/01/1865 - C. 13/12/1968
Series ID 334
Found this - not sure if our Alfred or not:
Index to Equity Files Series ID 15505
Name date filed file No QSA ref item ID
BAKER Alfred 20 Jun 1894 863 SCT/U119 94992
This is all so far - still learning and looking.....
Thanks for your offer,
Wendy
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Thanks Wendy. If you think of anything more you need looked up, just let me know. I'm not sure when I'll get to the Archvies but I will try for this week.
If anyone else who has contributed to your thread has any more ideas for lookups related to this family, let me know too please. :)
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Ruskie, Can you check BDM's in the archives? Someone did suggest finding out if when Emily Baker remarried whether it mentioned if she was divorced or widowed. She married William Thomas Ford in 1903 reference no C608. He was a farmer in the Mt Whitestone district. Just a thought . . .
Wendy
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I'm afraid that you would need to buy the certificate to find out if Emily was divorced or widowed. The only information at the Archives is the indexes - which is what you already have. (also available on the Qld Justice site):
https://www.bdm.qld.gov.au/IndexSearch/mainMenuSubmit.m?main_menu=IndexSearch
Something that can be useful (probably not in this case, but keep it in mind for others) are wills and intestacies, because the death certificates are included with them. ;)
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Hi
You need to find out from the archives if there are records that are on microfiche that have not been digitised yet.
Specifically a record for William Baker, he appears on the list of Baker children, as I said before it should say what family he was adopted or fostered by.
mum mum
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I will go back over the post MM, but yes, I would expect to look at fiche or film for these records. I think all of the digitised records are available online now - if they're not, then it'll be film or paper. :)
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Hi again,
just thought I would share what we have found out. Harry (the one in the orphanage - he kept the name Harry all his life even though he was born John Thomas) enlisted in ww1 in 1915 under the name Harold Harry Baker. He died in battle in France just a few months later. He listed his next of kin as Annie Louisa Metcalf his sister and there was a note on the page saying she was the only living relative. ALso a letter from her advising the necessary people that she was the only living relative. So obvioulsy Harry didn't know about William and Alfred was definitely out of the picture - though yet to find a death for him.
Will keep things posted as I keep looking,
Wendy
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We think we may have found William.
After a few google searches we found a William Baker Searle born 6th Feb 1895 who was adopted by an Ellen Searle. They were in NSW. We emailed and found out that it was not known exactly where he was born. He ended up in QLD, married in 1923 and stayed in Qld. On the Qld bdm search page I searched for William Baker and the exact birth date of 6th Feb 1895 and his name came up with parents Alfred and Emily - so we think it may be him. We are not sure how he got to NSW but he didn't stay there. We also found a photo of William Baker Searle with his family aged 39 - we thought we noticed a few similarities between him and Harry's photo so decided to follow it up. We still don't know what happened to Emily or Alfred during that time of William's birth. We are still working on finding those details and your help is appreciated,
have a great day,
Wendy
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Hi
I can see the family tree and the photo on Ancestry, I wonder if William knew who his parents were, it seems that he retained the name Baker, so you would think that Ellen Searle must have told him who he was.
Does anyone have his marriage certificate to see what he said about his parents?
It makes you wonder why all those other researchers couldn't find any orphanage records for him, or maybe they weren't Rootschatters.
mum mum
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Wendy, I'm sorry I was unable to make it to the archives this week, but will try to get there next week if you still require the information (considering your finds over the past few days). ;)
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Hi mum mum,
I'm not sure he knew who his parents were. He didn't seem to make contact with anyone in the family till 1954, even though he was in QLD since early 1920's. Apparently his war record says he had a severe stutter which stared when he was about 5 - not sure if he was with his family for awhile or given up as a baby. Only one researcher we have found had that he was adopted and who his adoptive mother was- no one else seems to know anything - which makes me think no one must have his marriage certificate. We intend on keeping on trying to trace Alfred and Enily's life over that time period.
Thanks for you help with this,
Wendy
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Hi Ruskie,
There's no hurry on the archives. We would still like to follow up records for Emily in the Reception House in Townsville and also the file on Alfred - to see it it is ours or not. We have since found out that the Goodna records are no longer open and that we have to apply for records - so don't bother with that one. As mentioned in the post to mum mum we are still trying to piece together Alfred and Emily's life around this time frame, so any help appreciated.
Thank you again,
Wendy
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OK thanks for letting me know Wendy. I will try to get to the Archives to do those lookups to get them out of the way otherwise I will forget. ;). I will try to give you a bit of notice before I go, so you have time to let me know if you think of anything more you'd like checked while I'm there.
As you were particularly interested in the Goodna records, it must be a disappointment to discover that you cannot access them. Why are they "no longer open?" I know that a certain timeframe has to pass before you can access some records, but you ar implying that they were once open, but not any more?
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That's right Ruskie records were open and are now closed. This is the reply I received:
"Queensland Health have been carrying out a systematic review of their records held at Queensland State Archives. As a result of this review, they have discovered that each item in Series 9051 (Wolston Park Case Books) contains information that exceeds the end date they had previously listed. This has resulted in their recent decision to re-close the records.
We have been advised that members of the public doing family history research need to lodge applications for access to restricted records held at Queensland State Archives, under the Right To Information Act and that an application fee is applicable."
So will leave it for now. Will let you know also if I find anything else needing looking into at the archives,
Wendy
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Thanks for the explanation. Sounds like a grab for money if you can still apply but now have to pay a fee... typical.
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Hi interested in your search for William Baker I may be his grandson in Australia
Graham
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Hi Graham,
We found the search for William Baker Searle very interesting. We have some information and are happy to share it with you. What is it that you would like to know? My husband's mother, as a child, remembers him coming to her grandmothers home obviously trying to reconnect with his birth family - we don't think it was very successful.
Regards,
Wendy
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Thanks for the reply so soon, I am Graham's wife and I've just started the journey of discovering William's family history. We always knew William was adopted and have a copy of his adoption papers and his birth and death certificates. He married Alice Grace Harris and they had 3 sons and 1 daughter. Their 2nd son Eric Baker Searle was my husband Graham's father. I am interested in any further info there is on Emily and Alfred Baker and the other 2 children Annie and John Thomas. We're travelling to England in the next month and plan to visit Bedfordshire to see if we can discover any more about them.
thanks Deb
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Hi Deb,
We're quite excited to have found a relation of William! We have a few photos of his sister and brother. We have attached a photo of Annie on her wedding day - you can see the resemblance to William in this photo. Did you know that Annie and John Thomas were put into an orphanage for awhile in Rockhampton? And then Emily ended up in the Goodna Asylum for awhile. When Emily placed John Thomas in the orphanage she was slightly deranged and said his name was Harry and that he was born in Ceylon. We know that Alfred and Emily left England with 2 children, Annie and another boy they called Harry. We think he may have died on the trip over somewhere around Ceylon and that's why Emily gave that incorrect information at the orphanage and then the name stuck. We have a photo of Harry (John Thomas) when he was in the war. We have a lot of information on Emily and Alfred and the 2 children as well as some photos and links to more info online. It is too much to send just now so we will get it together and send it on Friday. Would you prefer it by email?
Going to England would be great! My daughter who started this research is extremely jealous!!
Kind Regards,
Wendy
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http://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/search.pl
Marriages Dec 1883
BAKER Alfred Woburn 3b/909
LONDON Emily Woburn 3b/909
Marriage
BAKER Alfred 23 years Father Alfred BAKER
LONDON Emily 20 years Father Thomas LONDON
8 Oct 1883 Battlesden, Bedford, England
https://www.qld.gov.au/law/births-deaths-marriages-and-divorces/family-history-research/
1886/M2759 M=Marine
BAKER Henry
Father Alfred Baker Mother Emily LONDON
Cando
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Hi there,
The Marine registration would be 2nd December 1886.
Cheers, JM
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Thanks so much Wendy that would be great if you could send what you have via email.We are going to England to visit our daughter and son inlaw and await the arrival of their first baby who will be William's great great grandchild. We read the adoption papers again this morning and William was adopted at age 18 months by Thomas and Ellenor Searle in October 1896. It states on the papers that Emily is a widow at this point. I will make some copies of what I have and send them to you if you would like via email? My husband Graham remembers his Aunt Thelma, William's only daughter who died unmarried aged in her 30's and says that the picture of Annie is a spitting image of Thelma. Amazing connections.
Deb