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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Cumberland => Topic started by: hiyamarra on Thursday 03 May 12 12:44 BST (UK)
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A number of my ancestors are shown in 1851/61/71 census living at Ratten Row Dearham, yet I can find no other reference to this part of Dearham. Looking along the census pages it's always recorded close too "pit yard" or "Outgang". I have a copy of 1865 OS map which shows the Lonsdale pit next to Outgang farm but no sign of Ratten Row. Many residents were irish, many were hawkers, could this mean it was more of a camp/shanty than stone building, but over 20 years in a camp seems a long time. Any help or knowledge on Ratten Row would be wonderful
Thanks
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Is this the place?:
http://www.francisfrith.com/ratten-row/maps/
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Looking at the neighbouring streets in the census, marking it on an old map and comparing to a modern map, can sometimes narrow down specific streets. You may be able to locate a street or other landmark that still exists today to give you an idea of location. Also you might like to check for a different map on old-maps.co.uk - some maps are clearer and more detailed than others.
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Seems like it still exists today.
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The Ratten Row you all found still exists but is about 35 miles from Dearham and is not the Ratten Row Im looking for. Googling Ratten Row gets results in Preston, Norfolk and other places but I cant find any name meaning which might give a clue
The 1865 OS map is extremely detailed showing every stone building right down to wells in gardens
Im grateful for all help, but not solved yet
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As I understand it Ratten Row, Rotten Row and other variants simply means Route de Roi or Kings Street, or the Kings Highway, so should be a main road in and out of town.
Derby Girl
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Have you checked the enumerator's walk on all of the censuses yet, to see if you can at least narrow down where Ratten Row was located?
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Hi
Don't know if this will help but there appears to be a public house close by called the Strugglers Arms or Inn, the pub appears in the 1891 census as well so may be marked on the map
In 1891 Road End, Craigs Road and Pleasant Views? are mention on the same sheet (RG12 piece 4310 folio 18 page 30 )
Happy Hunting
Chris
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Thanks for the help everybody, Yes I have followed the enumerators walk which tells mi it's in the pit head, out gang area but never shown on any map. There were probably several hundred people loving at Ratten Row on 1851/61/71 census but no signs of permanent buildings
Thanks for you input Derby girl, the general area would br near the main road into the village
I'm still holding my theory that it was an encampment hence on no maps
I just need some proof
Thanks again for valuable input
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Maybe not temporary dwellings - I know you have a very detailed map, but not all buildings would have been marked. If it was temporary surely it wouldn't be named on the census? :-\
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Thanks for your continuing input Ruskie it's appreciated
I have 2 other ancestor families related to the ones I'm researching now 1 is recorded living in a tent the other living behind the hedge so temporary accommodation is shown
Many of the residents of Ratten Row are basket makers, besom makers, pottery hawkers etc all trades of travellers/gypsies many of the names, McKenzie, Keenan, Berry, Knowles are travellers names too
I guess what I am trying to determine is,was Ratten Row a travellers camp
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I am very curious about this. As you said in your first post, 20 years in temporary accommodation is a very long time. Maybe there were shanty type dwellings in Ratten Row, and they were not marked on maps as they were deemed to be temporary or were omitted for other reasons? :-\
Have you tried asking local history societies and libraries? Maybe they know more about Ratten Row.
I hope you eventually get an answer.
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Yes I tried the local history society who knew of Ratten Row but had no details or info I've tried the local library too as well as Cumbria archives
Another guess is it was on land owned by Lonsdale pit as many residents worked as miners (including some of my hawker families) maybe the pit awners didn't want an encampment showing on their land.
Family memoirs record my G G Granfather built a brick house there but sold it to the pit giving him the money to expand the family enterprise go pot hawking. This went on to become a high class china merchant in nearby Cockermouth where they traded up to the 1970's
I have loads of info on the family except for how they arrived in England from Ireland and of course the story about Ratten Row
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Your theory sounds logical. I know the mines provided housing for their workers - and it generally wasn't of a high standard. I am also wondering if perhaps Ratten Row was the name for a terrace of houses within a larger street which may be a reason it doesn't show up on maps. I've seen addresses as X Terrace, where it is simply a terrace of houses along a much larger street and is not on any maps. Something similar could be the case with Ratten Row being a row of houses ... maybe? ;)
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Dearham is a very small village with small clusters of houses, there is a very small terrace close to the pit head which I guess are the mines although I'm only guessing again. The map gives really good detail but does not name this terrace. I'll try counting the houses and compare to the number of houses on the census. Maybe get a clue that way
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I have been quite fascinated by this seemingly easy question. Its obvious from your Rootschat name that you hail from West Cumbria. If you are still in the area, have you thought of knocking on doors where you think Ratten Row was. Some people might be able to access their deeds which would show a change of name from say Ratten Row to No67 Central Avenue. I only mention this because a similar thing happened to me in Carlisle and the first house I called at, the owner produced the deeds of his house and solved a mystery within minutes.
With the name Ratten, could this be an allusion to the basket makers who used rattan for strengthening their baskets? Alternatively there was also "retting", I think, when flax was left in a pond to soften the stalks and make the threads used for linen, more easily obtainable. Presumably also the sellers of pots were also in Dearham because of the Wedgewood Pottery, founded by an offshoot of the famous family of potters.
Best of luck
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I spent 1/2a day in Dearham recently mainly in the church yard, I called into a couple of village shops to ask but no-one knew anything. I had hoped to find 2 old men sitting on a bench with their pipes and terriers but no luck
I have researched the pottery as this is where my ancestors bought their stock to sell in the villages around as well as Cockermouth. The pottery was called Jubilee pottery and was owned by the Ostle family who were local wealthy Quakers.
The Wedgewood connection came when Josiah Wedgewoods great uncle went to work at the Whitehaven pottery he found the skills were not good enough to produce the glazes he wanted so he moved to Jubilee pottery. I'm not sure how long for but it would be ore census, the 1841 census shows 2 of my ancestors from another family staying at the Ostle home as boys. There was obviously a strong connection. In st Mungos church records July 4th 1819 one of my ancestors daughters was baptised, her fathers occupation was potter.
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Hmmm. Really annoying that something so simple as a house address should be so difficult to locate.. Will pop into Carlisle Archives on Tuesday. Have one idea which might just produce a result.
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Thanks for that, while youre there have a look at the 1865 OS map you'll get a better idea
I'm actually in Asia on holiday so can't do anything until I get back
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This is the 25inch 1865 map and this is the area I will concentrate on
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Thanks for that I really appreciate it. I don't know what year the next edition of the OS map came out but it may be worth looking
It's interesting that there are several Ratten Rows around the country, were they all travellers camps ?
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There was meant to be a copy of the map in last post but there were too many pixels. This one should work
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I just found this reference to Tudor village Co Durham
There were some interesting field names in 1839. In particular, one plot lying on the east side of the village was called Ratten Row: one meaning of this is a roundabout way used to carry corpses for burial. There was (and is) a footpath towards Hett along the northern edge of Ratten Row, leading to (and between) Litch Close and Litch Field: litch is an Anglo-Saxon word for corpse (which survives in lych-gate, a covered gate into a churchyard where the bearers would wait before proceeding to the grave-side). The name Ratten Rawe was in use in Tudhoe at least as early as 1570. This suggests either that the villagers used a church other than Brancepeth or Whitworth in mediaeval times, or perhaps that there were burial grounds close to the village
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Sorry should read Trudhoe
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It must have been fairly common usage at one time. Personally I know of four in Cumbria, including the one at Dearham. There was one near Ulverston where there was an iron ore mine; one between Durdar and Dalston near Carlisle and one about half a mile west of Caldbeck.
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Ratten Row doesn't show up in the 1899 25 inch map either. I will be looking at the OS surveyor's "walking book" in which they recorded such things as place names, monuments etc. I have been told that they have been placed in the Archive Centre in Carlisle. Don't know whether they are the originals or copies..
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Yes, I think there are many Ratten Rows and variations on that, but it's only the Dearham one that reallt interests me. Exactly where was it and what is the history of it and it's residents
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Hi
I was misinformed about the OS walking books/. It was mentioned at a Victoria County History Volunteers meetings that these were in Carlisle Archives. What they actually have are several volumes that merely list plot and field numbers, together with acreages. Unfortunately there are no place names. The walking books, I am told by Carlisle Archives are at TNA Kew. If Ratten Row still extisted in 1910-11, it would have been included in Lloyd-George's "Domesday Book"--The National Land Valuation and Survey. Every Property in England was visited and a four page report prepared describing the property, what it was used for, use of rooms etc. There was often a plan.
If you go to London, The National Archives may be the answer.
I went through the Senhouse paper at Carlisle but could find no clues for Ratten Row.
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Thanks for your help. Although we don't have anything yet I have a feeling this will be resolved
I have a couple of ideas but unfortunately at the moment I'm beach combing with my wife in Asia
When I get back I'll stay in touch
Thanks again
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I am researching the family of Richard and Eleanor Proud who appear in censuses as living in Ratten Row , Dearham. I also would dearly like to know more about this address. My great-great-grandparents Faulder and Nancy Proud migrated to Gympie in Qld, Australia in the 1860's with their entire large family.
I have visited modern-day Dearham and love the old Anglican Church but would love to know more about it. the Prouds appear on all the censuses back to 1841 but I don't know much about what it was like then. They were miners and were also said to have been potters. Before that I think they would have been poor farmers.
Connie from Oz
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Hi Connie
Well, there is no doubt that our ancestors would have known each other as I have several families living there between 1851 and 1881 census's. Members of my family were also listed as miners and potters. I don't have clear proof of exactly where Ratten Row was, I have seen several period maps including the first ordinance survey map of 1865 and nothing is shown. I have my on theory which is highly likely but as a stickler for historical proof I will never be sure until I have real evidence. If you send me a private message with your e-mail I will share my theory with you.
On the 1851 census 18 properties are listed under Ratten Row, 1861 lists 17, 1871 lists 16. If you follow the sequence enumerated you will see next to Ratten Row is always listed Outgang, Baustead Buildings, Pit yard etc.
This gives clear clues that it was very close to the Pit head of the Lonsdale pit, probably where your ancestors and mine worked. A short walk perhaps 1/4 mile west was the Jubilee pottery again where our ancestors worked
Another family of my ancestors bought this pottery and hawked it around local villages towards Cockermouth, where eventually they became established as high class china merchants owning several shops
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Connie won't be able to use the PM system until she has made another post or two. :)
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Sorry Connie I didnt notice it was your first post
Send me a couple of messages here then you can PM me after you have 3 posts
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I don't quite understand your message. Keen to find out more about Ratten Row. Who are you and how connected to Ratten Row?
Cheers, Connie from Oz
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I have a very old jug made of green and brown pottery with a raised oak design. It is said to have been brought from England by my great-great grandmother [Nancy Proud, nee Muckleroy]. It is thick pottery with a shiny glaze Would this be from Dearham? I would love to know more about it. My grandmother just told me that it was very old and she didn't know any more about it. Cheers Connie
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I believe I have 2 more replies but can't see them. Will reply if I get them. Please be patient, Love Connie Will try to do a photo ASAP but not very computer savvy
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Not sure if it helps, but I have a relative who lived in Rotten Row Dearham in the 1841 and 1851 censuses - in the 1861 census after she was married her birth place was given as Greengill - which if you look on Google Maps is between Dearham and Gilcrux. On the subject of Dearham does anyone know if there any records of churchyard inscriptions anywhere on line?
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Hi
Thanks for your input, but Greengill is a separate hamlet. I guess your ancestors like mine, moved on as they prospered.
Interesting you had family there in 1841, mine were there in 51/61/71 I have been looking for evidence of Ratten Row existing in 41 & 81 so thanks
I don't know of any churchyard inscriptions, but the bishops transcripts can be found here
http://www.cumberlandroots.co.uk/Dearham.htm
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It's great to be finding out about old Dearham. I have only been there for a few hours in 2006. Loved the old Anglican Church but didn't see much else to love. Would have been beautiful pre Industrial Rev when the earlier generations were farmers. [as opposed to Crosby Villa where some relatives were living for the 1881 Census; an ugly and bleak "new town" built in the 1870's]. I must look up my info on all the Censuses to trace residences a bit more closely. Various Proud relatives were living at Ratten Row in the 1851 Census. The Muckleroys whose daughter Nancy married Faulder Proud also lived there at some stage. I've forgatten which census it was Richard Proud' Family who were in Ratten Row in 1851 were living in Ellen Villa, Dearham in 1841. Does anyone know where that is/was? Most of the Ratten Row residents seem to have been colliers even then, as well as being part time agric. labourers. I think RR was probably hastily built accommodation to cater for the influx of miners in the 1840's. The Muckleroys were Irish, presumably refugees from the famine though I can find out very little about them. The Prouds probably lived there for many generations .
That line of the family was of Scottish appearance, whereas Nancy[ nee Muckleroy] was small and dark haired [the "black celtic"] I have a somewhat spanish appearance which I believe I inherited from that side of the family. My grandma said she was descended from old-time Spanish sailors but who knows?
I find it hard to research the English part of the family history from here in Sydney, Australia, so any clues and links which contemporary Dearham contacts can provide is most welcome.
Thanks especially, hiyamurra, for your separate input. How does one go about looking up more details about the censuses. For instance, I believe that most of the females in London were domestic servants whereas our ancestors took pride in maintaining their females to keep the families running smoothly. There seem to have been high rates of literacy and fairly low rates of infant mortality. Am I right in making theses suppositions? This seems to have been true of the mining communities in C19 Australia, strong Protestant work ethic, strong community feeling.
Connie Peters, Sydney, Australia.
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Connie
Have you joined any sites such as Genes `reunited or Ancestry.com
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Hi, am on Ancestry.com [Morgan Family history is mine] Was not impressed with Genes Reunited. Genealogy.com looks promising, as does Legacy Family Tree but the latter is not Mac Friendly. Must get back to some of the local FH clubs here. I prefer to work at home rather than going to the public venues but need to improve my computer skills.
I am finding interesting info in some unexpected places eg by googling the Primitive Methodist Church which was a powerful influence apparently in the mining communities. Ancestry on its own can be a bit dry unless one fills in the social and environmental background. I find it relatively easy to fill out the social background here by researching at local libraries but Cumberland and Northumberland are a different matter. Would love to spend a month in Cumberland to get a better idea of the place
I would love to know more about how they got around, found out about assisted migration opportunities, educated themselves, working conditions, etc .
I am intrigued by the dry-stone walls which my great grandfather built around his property in Helensburgh, NSW. Similar walls and fields rang a bell with me when I first visited Windemere in 1976. As a hard working miner such a property must have been his dream. It was on the edge of what is now a National Park so he clearly loved wild places. The rest of his family settled in suburban Newcastle NSW where living and working conditions were easier but not nearly so beautiful. A sense of place is so important in history. Lovely conversing with You.
My Email is *cheers, Connie
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On May 6 Hiyamarra wrote
I spent 1/2a day in Dearham recently mainly in the church yard, I called into a couple of village shops to ask but no-one knew anything. I had hoped to find 2 old men sitting on a bench with their pipes and terriers but no luck
I was in Dearham on Saturday and there sitting on a wall, smoking his pipe, with a greyhound not a terrier was a really old chap. And you have guessed already... he didn't know where Ratten Row was either. However he put me on to a lady who said Ratten Row was on both sides of the main street (Central Road) between the crossroads with the Maryport-Cockermouth Road and Lonsdale View.
Apparently all the terraces of houses in Dearham had nicknames like 18 Row, 20 Row, Baggat but these names bore no relation to the actual name.
She thought 20 row referred to a row of 20 cottages and Baggat to houses where you had to open a five barred gate to get to them.
Hope this helps but I'm not convinced.
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If you look at the various censuses on Ancestry they usually at the start of each section have a description of the area covered which often can give a pretty good idea of the adjacent properties to a particular address.
For example the 1851 census described the district concerned as “all that part of the Township of Dearham which lies on the west of the Turnpike Road leading from Dearham to Cockermouth (including Townhead, Rattan Row, Boustead Buildings, Harker, Blooming Heathers(?) Hayborough House and Kirkborough.
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Thanks for that, greatly appreciate, i'll check the 1865 OS map for those areas
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Not sure if it helps, but I have a relative who lived in Rotten Row Dearham in the 1841 and 1851 censuses - in the 1861 census after she was married her birth place was given as Greengill - which if you look on Google Maps is between Dearham and Gilcrux. On the subject of Dearham does anyone know if there any records of churchyard inscriptions anywhere on line?
This is my first time on this (or any other) chat site, so please bear with me!
I dont think Dearham gravestone inscriptions are on line, but I have access to a hard copy. Not sure I should be saying this publicly as I may be inundated with requests and am rather busy at the moment! However, I am grateful to find information from those who have been researching Dearham longer than I have, so fair exchange!
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I am researching the family of Richard and Eleanor Proud who appear in censuses as living in Ratten Row , Dearham. I also would dearly like to know more about this address. My great-great-grandparents Faulder and Nancy Proud migrated to Gympie in Qld, Australia in the 1860's with their entire large family.
I have visited modern-day Dearham and love the old Anglican Church but would love to know more about it. the Prouds appear on all the censuses back to 1841 but I don't know much about what it was like then. They were miners and were also said to have been potters. Before that I think they would have been poor farmers.
Connie from Oz
Connie, I think you may have contacted me by email some time ago about Graves in St. Mungos churchyard. Have you discovered cumbriaroots.uk? This has Bishops Transcript, recording BMD and baptisms from 1663-1837 and sveral Proud(e)s are recorded. Thses records often include occupations or even 'a poor man' etc.
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Thank you for your reply. I respect your reservations about being inundated with requests but it is fascinating to try and reconstruct what it would have been like in those days.
I would like to be in any loop of people who are interested in Dearham history. I didn't know it existed while my grandmother was alive. She thought her father came from Durham. I am hoping to set up a Proud family blog, which will include Muckleroys.
The family diaspora all along the East Coast of Australia and in Western Australia also indicates how tough it was in those days looking for work. I have discovered that they were all Primitive Methodists by the time they got to Australia. This was the pro Union split-off from the Wesleyans, who were favoured by the mine owners for their protestant work ethic, family values and literacy..
I looked at the Methodist Church in Dearham but it had not the the charm of the old Anglican Church.
I have looked at the Bishops transcripts and found various family records, nothing before 1841 though. The 1881 census mentions that the Prouds were originally upland farmers as I guess most of the poorer folks were. The largest number lived in Yorkshire.
I subscribe to Ancestry and have corresponded with a lot of extended family through that.The lives of neighbours and fellow passengers have also proved to be informative in developing a realistic picture of life in those days. I still hope to go back to Dearham some day but it will have to be soon as I am 77 now.
Thanks so much for taking the time to answer but don't feel obligated. Connie Peters, Sydney, Australia.
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No Prouds or Muckleroys on any of the legible inscriptions, Im afraid. I am hoping to get the village on board to hold a heritage weekend during 2013, currently just chatting the idea around. One friend lives in a tiny terraced house, probably built ss a miners dwelling, and at the 1901 census it was home to a widow with four daughters, a young teen son who was a miner, and a lodger. It has two small bedrooms, and one of the two downstairs rooms was used as a shop! The terrace is in one of the areas suggested for Ratten Row.
bejaysunny
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An afterthought, have you searched McIlroy, MacIlroy, Macilroy, all names I encountered whilst living in Scotland.
bajaysunny
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No, they were Muckleroys. Father Patrick , mother Elizabeth Fulton. Nancy Muckleroy was born in Ireland and had a thick Irish accent. Thanks anyway.
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No, they were Muckleroys. Father Patrick , mother Elizabeth Fulton. Nancy Muckleroy was born in Ireland and had a thick Irish accent. Thanks anyway.
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No, they were Muckleroys. Father Patrick , mother Elizabeth Fulton. Nancy Muckleroy was born in Ireland and had a thick Irish accent. Thanks anyway.
Was the question of Rotton row ever resolved? I have lived here all my life and am sure Rotton row was the row of back to back houses immediately after outgang garden center. My gggfand his family lived in outgang cottages for a while in the mid to late1800s. Lister was their surname. I can remember as a kid a couple of the old cottages still standing. This is now Laws garden center. Providence place is the name of a small row of cottages set back from the road and is just below where I currently live which was locally known as Sandham row as it was opposite Sandhams bakery on the cobbles,as were many terraces. 20 row as someone mentioned is actually Londsdale terrace opposite the old folks bungalows at commercial corner.Most of the houses on maryport road date from the early 1900s. the three on the corner opposite commercial were built first then our row in 1854 then providence place. Any one wanting a brief history of Dearhamshould read the books written by someone called his surname is WinterI will see if I can find what they are called, but I have read them and it is ammazing to see Dearhams varied history
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What a goldmine of information! A few of us have just started meeting at the Sun Inn, 4pm Thursdays, to pool information on Dearham's heritage and this personal knowledge is an answer to prayer! We will be looking at very old maps this week and trying to identify locations - we would love you to join us if you can, or contact me to share more information. I know some youngsters who would love to know about life 'in the olden days' and It would be great to get them connected! I am very interested in the books you mention, but more than anything it is personal recollection that gives a real flavour of the past.
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Lister107
Many thanks for your informative reply. No, as yet the actual location of Ratten Row is still not clear. My ancestors are show living there on the 1851, 1861 & 1871 census. I have an 1865 map of the exact area (I believe) but nothing marked Ratten Row. I would still welcome any help in pinpointing the exact place. If you send me a private message with your e-mail address, I can e-mail you the map
Many Thanks
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Hi, am on Ancestry.com [Morgan Family history is mine] Ancestry on its own can be a bit dry unless one fills in the social and environmental background. I find it relatively easy to fill out the social background here by researching at local libraries but Cumberland and Northumberland are a different matter. Would love to spend a month in Cumberland to get a better idea of the place
I would love to know more about how they got around, found out about assisted migration opportunities, educated themselves, working conditions, etc .
Have a look on Amazon for the author John Little. Some of his ancestors were from Dearham and he’s a good researcher.