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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Kent => Topic started by: Simon G. on Wednesday 02 May 12 13:55 BST (UK)
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Hi all. Perhaps someone can help me, as I'm banging my head against the desk with frustration over this one. :p I've been trying to trace the ancestors of an Ada Twyman who later in life emigrated to Montreal in Canada, where in 1908 she married an Ernest Simpson. In her marriage entry she's noted to be the daughter of Henry Twyman & Lillian May Dike of Ramsgate in Kent. Unfortunately I'm not able to find any trace of this couple at all anywhere outside of this marriage entry!
However I do have Ada on the 1911 Canadian census which gives her as born in 1888, and there are entries for an Ada Twyman on both 1891 and 1901 over here for an Ada born in Margate in the same year...but unfortunately she's not with her parents on either return. There is no trace of her on the 1911 UK census.
I've received in the post this morning the only birth certificate for an Ada Twyman in Thanet for the year she was born (1888), which gives her as the daughter of Lily Twyman (a barmaid) with no father listed.
Now, would people agree it's possible that she's been a bit economical with the truth, as it were, at marriage, and she's swapped around the surnames of her parents? Lily is quite close to Lillian, although I don't really like the idea of shoe-horning it together without any evidence. Otherwise any advice on where to go next would be appreciated, as this has exhausted my 9-years of experience unfortunately. :(
Many thanks.
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Hi,
Have you found this Twyman family on 1871 census?
Henry and wife Elizabeth with 4 Twyman children (including a 2 yr old Lily) plus 3 Dike step-children (including 14 yr old John). Living in Margate.
RG10 993 22 2
A connection possibly? :-\
Nanny Jan
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Hmm Lily Twyman a barmaid. I wonder if there was some intermingling with the families on the census nanny jan has found :-X
Has to be a connection with both those surnames in the mix.
2 year old Lily ends up in London 1891 with her sister and is a vocalist. Her mother was a Dike so it is possible Ada did amalgamate parents names. Hard to tell isn't it. I read recently people often put down grandfathers names on marriage or make up names to save face. I have come across a made up one myself.
Just a guess but I would surmise Lily was her mother Henry her grandfather.
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I concur with nanny jan and Millepede.
Marriage Reg;
Elizabeth Ann DIKE, Sept 1864, Thanet, 2a 1070
Henry William TWYMAN on same page
1861 Census Elizabeth A Dike, born c 1831 Margate, is with Husband John in Margate. John c 1857 and Siblings are there also.
Marriage;
John DIKE, Dec 1854, Thanet, 2a 1066
Elizabeth Ann BARTLETT on same page
Death Reg for a John DIKE, Dec 1862, Thanet, 2a 417
Elizabeth Ann BARTLETT was Christened 26 Nov 1831, St John, Margate, Kent to THOMAS/SARAH (Familysearch.Org)
Trish :)
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Travelling on the same ticket .............. aboard the Lake Champlain destined for Montreal arriving 24 Sep 1907 Quebec.
Rose JACKSON 38 married shopkeeper b.Kent
Ethel JACKSON unm 18 cashier b.London
Ada TYMAN 19 unm domestic b.Kent
Thomas JACKSON 20 unm porter b.London
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The JACKSON family have a connection with the Opera and Ramsgate which looks good for links to Lily (the singer) in London .............
1901 Whistler Street, Islington, London
George JACKSON head mar 45 digging labourer b.Islington
Rose wife 34 b.Canterbury
Thomas E son 12 b.Islington
Ethel dau 10 b.Islington
RG13/202 folio 130 page 30
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1891 32 Ellwood Street, Islington, London
George JACKSON head mar 39 supernumery R E Opera b.London
Rose wife married 25 b.Canterbury
Thomas E son 3 b.Islington
Ethel dau 9m b.Islington
Rose CARLTON niece 2 b.Ramsgate
RG12/175 folio 21 page 38
Casalguidi :)
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1841/1851 Census Elizabeth Ann is under Ann only, with Parents Thomas/Sarah in Margate, Thomas is a Mariner.
HO107/468/4/St John The Baptist Margate
Thomas Bartlett 41, Mariner
Sarah Bartlett 43
Samuel Bartlett 17
Thomas Bartlett 15
Susanna Bartlett 13
Ann Bartlett 10
Mann Bartlett 7
Sarah Bartlett 5
John Bartlett 3
Eliza Bartlett 1
1851 Census Sarah is Widowed;
HO107/1629/347/15
Now here is a surprise :D
SAMUEL TWYMAN Bartlett Christened 14 Dec 1823, St John, Margate to THOMAS/SARAH
THOMAS TWYMAN Bartlett 30 Oct 1825
(all the other Childrens Christenings that match Census are there too on F/S.Org)
Thomas BARTLETT Married Sarah TWYMAN, 22 Nov 1822, St John, Margate, Kent
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Thanks for the replies all. I was at work when I posting my inquiry, so was naturally divorced from my file...although I'm not sure I'd have noticed the Dike connections if I'm honest. Very much appreciated. :)
I do suspect that the Lily who was the daughter of Henry William Twyman & Elizabeth Ann Dike (nee Bartlett...interestingly her parents were Thomas Bartlett and Sarah Twyman, so it does get very interesting as Henry & Elizabeth share a set of grandparents - but I digress).
It's strange, though, to me that Ada isn't with any family on 1891 or 1901...I have her on RG12/729 9/11 in 5 Belle View Cottages Margate with the family of a Mr. John Blows (down as a boarder) and on RG13/826 86/22 in 3 Mount Pleasant Cottages Ramsgate as a visitor with a Mrs Sarah Jane Stock. Perhaps, though, that may explain away a little confusion with the parents...maybe that's as best as she knew them.
With the Lily the singer, I believed she was the daughter of John Crow Twyman & Rosetta Aaron Jessell. John Crow Twyman was a photographic artist in Ramsgate, and I did think that the sister Miriam that she's with on 1891 was following her father's footsteps as it were. Interestingly on the previous census they're both together again as students in the household of Thornton G. Simpson in Hackney, although "Lily" is down as Leah.
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Simon, is there any address on Ada's birth certificate?
Casalguidi :)
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Simon, is there any address on Ada's birth certificate?
Yep. Says she was born in 2 Zion Cottages, Margate (born 16th October 1888, and the mother was also the informant. Same address.)
I did look on my lunchbreak at both 1881 and 1891, but there weren't any Twymans living in the house. Neglected to note who was there though, besides it not being a Dike either.
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Hello to all: Thank you for all this information about my grandmother Ada Twyman who married Ernest James Simpson here in Montreal. I have been on Ancestry- for quite a few months. Just today I was to see where 2 zion cottages ( brought her B-certificate) received two days ago. Today I found your site. You have here all that I know even about the Jacksons except for Lily's whereabouts afterwards. Ada was very loved by her children. She had 8 of hers and Ernests -and 3 of Ernest from previous marriage. I was close to my aunts and uncles but I never questioned ancesters- but now find it very interesting to find them - my mother is the last now 95 of her chidren.
Ernest died 1930or 33. His first child born 1903/4- last born 1926. Which was Fred William Simpson 18 on the ss Regina a canadian depth charger- that when down 1944 on the Cornwall coast by a German u boat ,she had a convoy of 10 ships-to take to Falmouth. He was one of 30 sailors that went down. Granny was very nice to all she died 1964.
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Would you know anything about Sarah Jane Stock. :(??? Or where the Opera and Ramsgate was. I am interested to know :)
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Welcome sunlight64,
Where when was Sarah Jane Stock born?
Someone else may help you with the other part of your query.
Trish :)
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Is Simon G. still looking into Ada Twyman and her mother Lily- Which Lily -one with Miriam one from Sarah Dike???- I need a wee bit more help:):) My grandmother said she was a Stuart any connection to Simpson family from Warwickshire or the ones in Ramsgate? Jacksons of canterbury and Islington?? any ideas out there????-
Sunlight64
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It is probably worth contacting Simon via his TWYMAN website http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/patriadomus/tons/index.html He may not be aware of the revival of this thread. There is a lot of information on the website and even a small forum.
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Thank you :) I'll do that :-*
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Evening all. :) I don't login here nearly as often as I should, so apologies for my tardiness. Haven't looked at Ada much since the earlier discussion on here (I went off on a tangent, as I often do, when the Canterbury Cathedral Collection went up on FindMyPast...so far this tangent has lasted 6-months :P)
But anyway...Sarah Jane Stock. Just been looking for her marriages & so forth, trying to see who she was and just why Ada Twyman was with her on 1901. Sarah Stock was born in Ramsgate around 1870, and appears to have been married twice: first to Alfred John Stock in 1889 in St. George's Ramsgate, and then later to Richard James Smith in 1906 (not sure where, as I've only found the Banns so far...in St. Clement's Sandwich. Both are noted as widowed). The first marriage gives her maiden name as Browning (father was George Browning, a mariner), so that's not really shed any light on the Twyman side of things at least...perhaps they're related on her father's side of things (if at all), whomever he may be.
But yes, by the look of it there were two Lily Twyman (at least in this thread :p)...the one who was the singer, and the one who was living with the Dike family. It's the one living with the Dikes whom I believe is mother of Ada Twyman. I shall continue to dig, though. :)
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Would like to know if there are any people out there related to these people: Herbert N. Twyman B. 1874 of Lord Bryon Inn Margate or his son Stephen who married in 1919 of Rodney Inn Garlinge until 1938... possible also a Claribel (Dike) Twyman Tobin. If you are out there please- if you have any information from long ago, it would be much appreciated because you would be my grandmothers uncles' families and aunt relatives. ??? For me this is a very long shot. :P
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Hello sunlight64
Just reading your post as am researching into my Grandmothers family who were Twymans. Stephen Twyman was my great grandfather. I haven't got an awful lot of information but would be happy to try and fill any blanks you might have
Amy
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Hi and thank you so much for this reply. I guess you have read the first page on this account.- I also have the marriage of Stephen 1919 it tells of all who were there.- His father Herbert N. b: 1874 is the brother of Lily b: 1869 who is Ada's mother(single name on birth certificate) my grandmother. The brothers after Lily, Joshua b: 1870-died young, Herbert N. 1874,and George F. b:1878 seemed to be much more quieter than Lily and her older brothers- Arthur and Walter. Have you read :suicide of an old boatman-"extract from the Isle of Thanet Gazette July 1901.- We share the same g-g-grandfather.... Do you have anything on Henry Wm. 1831 and Elizabeth Ann Bartlett-Dike Twyman. 1831/2-they are the parents.
or of (Eliz Ann Solly's children Henry Wm.-1854 and Elizabeth Ann b: 1859 ...maybe..... this is too much to fast. :P) call again..... Patsy
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Yes I have read a couple of different articles relating to the Twymans. I found the article on the wedding very interesting and am trying to find out more on Stephens wife's background, Edith Emily Coveney as I can only find her living with her Aunt and Uncle. My nana ( Stephens daughter )is in her 90's now and struggles to remember a lot of details. She often talks about her Aunt Fan, but I can't work out who she is. Any ideas? I'm going to Margate tomorrow to visit The Lord Byron and have a look for some grave stones. With regards to Henry WM and Elizabeth I've only found out as much as Simon discusses earlier in this thread
Amy
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Hi Amy census 1911 Edith Emily Coveney 14 b:1897 Lympne, Hythe---street address in 1911: The Hartsdown Farm, Westbrook, Margate.. Her sister Lillian Coveneny 17 - Their father John Coveney- chiminey sweep (died) ) .... also Lillian married in 1918-- maybe this is the Lily and Harold from the wedding 1919 newspaper-...I wonder-(Coton--his last name ??). Maybe one of Lillian's children named Fanny??? not sure ..speculating now what about Huckstep-family I don't know who(Twyman) married into them. Good luck in Margate.... Garlinge at Rodney inn is where Stephen was until 1930 or 1938... If you would like may e-mail let met know.......keep in touch....Patsy
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Ah lovely, couldn't find anything on their parents, will have a look into John then. I've got Lillian as marrying a Harold Huckstep in 1918 who comes from Garlinge in Kent. Have you been researching into the family very long? Swapping emails would be great. Amy
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Interestingly, as you have found Sunlight, Herbert Nicholson Twyman of the Margate Pub Fame is Uncle to the Ada Twyman 1888 being researched here.
Ada’s mother was Lily Twyman 1868, daughter of Henry William Twyman 1832-1901 and Elizabeth Ann Bartlett 1831-1898.
Lily was a bit of a girl by all accounts and this may be why her child Ada didn’t live with her? Being a Barmaid may have led to her downfall also? Alcohol had a big connection to this branch of the Twyman family. Brother Herbert Nicholson Twyman 1874-1943 was Landlord of the Lord Byron Public House, 113 Byron Road, Margate from 1900-1931. Older brothers Arthur and Walter were always in trouble with the police for fighting and swearing.
Lily’s parents were mostly drunk and arguing - according to newspaper reports. One from 1884 Henry was summoned by his wife, Elizabeth Ann, who complained that the defendant, on the 1st June, “used provoking and offensive language towards her and she prayed the Magistrate bind him over to keep the peace”. Lily would have been in the middle of these family rows being the eldest girl. Then her father Henry William Twyman, committed suicide by jumping in front of a train in 1901.
1891 Census, aged 22, Lily is an Unmarried Domestic Servant - staying with her married Step Sister Claribel Tobin, nee Dike at of 23 Clifton Cottages, Margate Kent
I cannot find Lily on the 1901 census but do have this newspaper report.
8th March 1902 Keble's Gazette
Her Eight Appearance
Lily TWYMAN was charged with being drunk and incapable in Stanley Road at an early hour on Wednesday Morning, and pleaded that she was guilty and very sorry. P.Sgt BINNIE deposed that at 12.10 that morning he found the defendant lying helplessly drunk and fast asleep on the footway. He procured the assistance of P.C. MINTER, and by that time the defendant had rolled into the gutter, where she was still sleeping soundly. He took her to the Police Station on a barow. Chief Constable CLEGG said this was defendants eighth appearance at Margate, besides several times in Ramsgate. She had been taken in hand by Miss Smart, who found a home for her, but she ran away from it. The Mayor said defendant always expressed sorrow but did not seem to mend her ways. She was fined 10 shillings and 5 shillings costs with an alternative of 10 days imprisonment. Time for payment was refused.
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Yes I have all that information and a bit more ....Lily was married in 1905 and lived in Canterbury until her death in 192O. ....sunlight ;) ;)
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Hi Amy I am helping my friend she is a grand daughter of Stephen Jarvis Twyman. She lives in Australia we have found some info about her family but still working out the family tree. Hope you would like to get in touch Lynnette
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Hello There
Not sure I have a Stephen Jarvis Twyman but happy to help.
were they from Margate?
Suzannah
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Hello, just getting back into my family research and have seen your message Lynette. Don't know if your still researching, but Stephen was my great grandad. Would be happy to message if you see this. Amy
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1891 Census, aged 22, Lily Twyman is an Unmarried Domestic Servant - staying with her married Step Sister Claribel Tobin, nee Dike at of 23 Clifton Cottages, Margate Kent