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Some Special Interests => Travelling People => Topic started by: liz-bris on Monday 30 April 12 06:11 BST (UK)
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Hello
I have an ancestor whose fathers name is listed as traveler on his birth certificate in 1841 in Devon. So is this really likely to be a profession or is it referring to his being a 'gypsy'? His mother registered the birth and did an x for her signature. She is on census as born in parish.
In the census taken that year, a few months before his birth, his father is listed as (hard to read) either doctor or factor, but both he and an older child are listed as not born in area and of foreign parts. Any ideas where I could go from here? ::)
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Liz, if you give us some names we'll take a look at the censuses to see what can be gleaned from them - and you're sure to get some opinions on the occupation on the census too.
Traveller could be a gypsy or a travelling salesman.
I would also check other censuses for the family to confirm occupations and places of birth.
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The occupation seems more like a "Commerical Traveller" which in itself seems to be archiac now or as Ruskie states - a travelling salesman. I have seen instances of when a member of a family makes a product and another travels and sells it.
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Thanks for offering to look at it. The census is Devon HO107/303/7
Address Quay Barnstaple The family are Benjamin Russell, wife Charlotte and daughter Mary.
Any opinions on the occupation would be appreciated. :)
Have not been able to find anything about this family other than birth certificate anywhere.
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By the 1851 census father Benjamin is not there, nor is the daughter. There is a possible death of the name Benjamin Russell in Bideford for father, and a few possible for child Mary in ten year period.
Just Mother and son Benjamin (born 1841) in Bideford in 1851. ::)
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Um, well I can't work out what that occupation might be ....
-octor
At one stage I thought it might be
-ochor
But I see that it would be a 't' as it is similar to others on the page.
But I can't work out what the first letter is - it looks a bit like an 'and' sign.
I can't see anything like it elsewhere on the page/s.
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I think I'm being distracted by a line through the first letter. Minus the line it looks a bit like a J or an I ... :-\
Maybe more like a J. :-\ It doesn't look like the I of Innkeeper on the previous page ...
Having said that, it doesn't really look like the Jo of John further up the page.
In the 1851 census, Charlotte's status has a great big line through it. I't hard to say if she's a widr, unmar or Mar ... :-\
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Hello
In the census taken that year, a few months before his birth, his father is listed as (hard to read) either doctor or factor, but both he and an older child are listed as not born in area and of foreign parts. Any ideas where I could go from here? ::)
I don't think Benjamin and Mary are b in "Foreign Parts" They both have "N" at the side of their names meaning "not b. in county living in "(i.e. devon)
If they had been born in Foreign parts there would be "F" in end column - or "S" for Scotland I for Ireland . There is a tick in that column - as there is against all of the "N"'s -and further down the page against some of the yes's. Possibly the ticks are just checking marks
Suz
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Thanks Suz for looking at that aspect. I couldn't see it properly and wasn't sure.
Re the name of the possible occupation - another occupation I thought of was Rector - a long shot? Anyone think this the first letter is an R?
Thanks Liz
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Ruskie
Just looking at the page again and below the couple is a family Vickary. And next to all of them is DO as usual. The last Do next to the Eliza (Vickary) looks similar to the beginning of the word - so could be Doctor ? :-\
Similar to the D on the facing page Margaret (Kendall) and the d in Geo Kendall? :-\
What do you think?
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I see what you mean about the D Liz. Doctor to traveller in a matter of a few months? Not sure, but stranger things have happened. They do have a servant in 1841 so maybe fairly well to do? Maybe he was a doctor who travelled around selling medicines of some sort? ;) It might be worth trying to locate the birth certificate of daur Mary to check his occupation on her birth certificate?
I'm not sure I can see an R in that first letter - maybe others can? :-\
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Thanks Ruskie
Another certificate may be the only answer. ::) I didn't really want to accept Doctor for the same reason as you. That's why I was more inclined towards factor, but I need to find the real answer of course! But still not sure about what the occupation traveler meant. ???
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I've got a few medics in the family tree, and none of them is described as "Doctor" in any census - they're all Physician and/or Surgeon. I've seen a few people with "Medicinal Doctor" or "M.D." (and a few Doctors of Divinity etc) but just "Doctor" strikes me as quite a modern way of describing a medical practitioner.
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Unlikely to be a doctor then become a traveler in the same year? Both birth cert and census were for 1841. Must be something else. :-\
That is why I wondered if he was a traveler (gypsy) and for some reason they put that as occupation. Has anyone seen if there is any way that the gypsy connection is shown on a birth certificate or marriage in any way? ::)
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Thinking again about the fact that they have a servant on the 1841 census .... maybe she is a servant to someone else and boards with the family rather than being their servant. ;)
Sorry I can't help with traveller/gypsy angle.
Benjamin and Mary's marriage certificate might help .... and or Mary's b/c .... :-\
Why not post the unknown occupation on the Deciphering Board where the experts hang out and you should get more opinions on what it might say. Provide a link to this post so people don't go over ground that has already been covered.
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Thanks Ruskie. I will have a look at that!
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Hello
I have an ancestor whose fathers name is listed as traveler on his birth certificate in 1841 in Devon. So is this really likely to be a profession or is it referring to his being a 'gypsy'? His mother registered the birth and did an x for her signature. She is on census as born in parish.
In the census taken that year, a few months before his birth, his father is listed as (hard to read) either doctor or factor, but both he and an older child are listed as not born in area and of foreign parts. Any ideas where I could go from here? ::)
Hi I have looked at the birth certificate and think its misleading you regards saying traveller ?
I think it just means that Charlotte Loosemore the mother was * travelling *at time of his birth registry and it was not unusual in those times for anyone to put a X as mark many could not read and write
Many families travelled looking for work
I just wonder in 1841 Benjamin occupation could it be Docker?
1851 Charlotte alone with son Benjamin is listed as house servant I beleive working in the lodging house and would suggest she is widowed which if her husband has died she would have had to find work to support them both
Or had they just seperated and she said widowed as this would be more acceptable to find work ?
I think you need to get if they exist Mary;s birth registry and Benjamin death that might help answer some questions
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As regards Gypsy/Traveller angle the only time any would refer to themsleves as Doctor - Doc was usually in the actual name
Like *Doc * Buckland and it ment they were not medical as to humans but horse doctors like Vets .....not trained as in schooling but because they were knowledgable about horses and cures for ailments
*Has anyone seen if there is any way that the gypsy connection is shown on a birth certificate or marriage in any way? *
Obviously on births yes some are stated as Travellers but usually horse dealers basket makers grinders not just traveller
With marriages again because they usually give fathers names ( live or deceased) the occupations usually give a clue similar to above and also witnesses help as usually related kin and usually someone knows the surname
of either groom or bride
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Thanks Tiggi for those insights. ::)
I guess you saw the birth certificate on ancestry?
I also noted that they seemed to be living in a lodging house in the 1841 census as well, so maybe they were moving around looking for work? Makes it a little harder. I also noted in 1841 census, just a few people down was a William Russell at the same address. Coincidence or connected ~ hard to tell even though probably related.
I may get the Ben death cert from Bideford, but the Mary Russell's are harder to pin down which one to choose as there are a few. The birth cert would be a better bet as you get more information I suppose. And at least the year of birth is easier to ascertain.
Food for thought!
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Something else interesting is that I have a Devon marriage listing in 1841 for Charlotte Loosemore but no listing for Benjamin Russell. Makes me wonder - how to find out if the index was misread? ???
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Yes I did see it on ancestry :)
I would suggest getting Ben Russell's death certificate in Bideford to at least rule that one out you didn;t say what year that was?
I am presuming before 1851 when Charlotte is saying widowed?
Are you also postive that Mary died ?
I know she isn;t with mother in 1851 but at the age of 13 she could be in
service herself although I did look in 1851 No Mary Russell of that BD in Devon
As for Marys birth according to 1841 neither her or father Ben were born in county so Devon is out...
Although Charlotte was born in Devon according to census
So it would mean if they married it was elsewhere and Mary was born somewhere else too as she was born 1839 you would need to look for possible marriage about that time or maybe 1837/8
I have tried FindMyPast site nothing comes up even with just surnames anywhere that matches them
I don;t think the marriage in 1841 is your Charlotte because she is with Ben Russell in 1841 & 1851 with son B Russell
What puzzles me also is that Charlotte Russell is not in 1861 Census in Devon so did she remarry ?
Its possible if Mary died that she could be also known as Elizabeth
I found a Elizabeth Russell death Barnstaple Devon 1844 Oct/Nov/Dec 10 33
Barnstaple was where Charlotte & Benjamin were in 1841
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From free BMD- I have deaths of Mary Ann Russell in St Thomas Sept 1842, and St Thomas Sept 1845, Plymouth 1847 ~~~ as well as Mary Russell in Chard June 1843, St Thomas Dec 1844, Tiverton June 1845 and another 6 Mary Russell's before 1851. ???
So that is impossible to find which one to choose as its a needle in a haystack. You could be right, Mary may have moved to somewhere else working as a servant.
Ben is in London in 1861 as a servant, and he emigrated within a few years after. Maybe his mother has died or remarried?
I just found a marriage of Charlotte Russell in Taunton in Dec 1861, on the free BMD so I will try following that up. That would mean she married as her married name not her maiden name. Not sure if that was the usual way it worked.
Thanks for your help Tiggi! :)
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With a second marriage the woman usually marries in her married name, her status would be "widow" and her maiden name would usually be noted. This can vary though. ;)
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Thanks Ruskie. :)