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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Monmouthshire => Topic started by: charwatkin on Thursday 26 April 12 02:04 BST (UK)
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Received 'official' copy from GRO in today's mail. Marriage took place in June instead of May given on online transcript for this parish. Not really a big deal but was hoping to have more information.
On both the transcript I found online and the "official" copy, there is NO FATHER listed for my groom... John Watkins. (m Elizabeth Syke June 18, 1857 in Llantillo Crosseney)
There is a baby John born to an unmarried girl and one born to a "George" Watkins & his wife, Mary that falls into that time period. That George died before this marriage took place.
Would John be the son of the unmarried female with no name for father..... or is he the son of George who died before his marriage?? What reasons would there be for not listing the father. Any way to find out for sure if this means he was 'base born.'??????
1861 census says he was born in Llantillo Crosseney
1871 says Llanvihangel, Monmouthshire, Wales
1881 just says "Monmouth"
Help!!!
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No father's name would usually indicate an illegitimate birth.
If John was the son of George, then (usually ;D) he would have put his father's name as "George Watkins, deceased".
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he could still be son of either
what is written on the certificate is very dependant on what the minister/registrar was told at the time
I have an example where there is a line in the space for brides father --so i assumed she was illegitimate.
Then i found her back visiting the family home on one census -- complete with Father - so why he wasnt on the marriage certificate i have no idea
You will have to track both candidates through as many censuses and other events as possible and follow all clues -- who else is in the household etc
Who are the witnesses on the marriage cert? could they be relatives to help sort out which one he is?
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This is a portion of the transcript with John, son of George & Mary Watkins and then a few down is John Rees, son of Rees Rees Coachman by Sarah Watkins.
Is the baby #2 John Rees Watkins or did he take on his father's last name?? Maybe that would be a clue for me. Someone else saw this and said he would be a Watkins. I thought that back then, if mom & dad weren't married the child would legally be mother's last name.
Also, as I am not familiar with all the areas there... why would one census say he was born in Llantillo Crosseney, Monmouth & another say he was born in Llanvihangel, Monmouthshire.
If John "Reese" did not go by "Watkins" because of his mother, then John s/o George and Mary would be the Llantillo Crosseney "John" .... but b/c of the other census naming Llanvihangel as his birth place... how do I know which is which???
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Oh... witnesses were Joseph Miles and Herbert Williams. No clue where they fit in.
Elizabeth's father evidently had some amount of money. Not extremely wealthy, but enough to be a "Farmer" and not simply an "Ag Lab" .... and when he died, had a Will registered - which I am waiting to receive in the mail.
Weren't those base born looked down on back in the mid 1800's?? I guess, what I am saying... would a father approve of his daughter marrying a bastard?
Copyright image removed. Only small portions can be posted for deciphering purposes.
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To get your geography together look at this Monmouthshire map:
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~monfamilies/Mon-Parish-Map.jpg, from the same site that you found the baptism transcript. There are many Llanvihangels in Wales............
I think that he was illegitimate. I have found that Welsh parish registers seem to name the father as well as mother despite no marriage. Sometimes this was so that the parish could charge the father with maintainance for supporting the child, otherwise the mother might have gone to the parish for relief.
I don't think that illegtimate children were considered not suitable for marriage, it would depend on his ability to provide for his wife. A farmer in those days could be farming a few acres of land, to managing a large farm. Very few owned their land in the 1800s, land was owned by the aristocrats, and the 'farmers' paid rent. But they did leave wills, which is great to see.
Anne
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I appreciate the input.
Question I now have is... where WAS he born??? Llantillo Crosseney or Llanvihangel??
I forgot that John & Elizabeth married in Llantillo Crosseney but moved to Llan Bedr with her parents. (Then later on to Llangenney)
1n 1861 Henry Syke(s) -father of Elizabeth - lived i Llanbedr:
Cottage name: Henbant & was a farmer of 150 acres.
Daughter, Elizabeth and her husband John Watkins (w.3 sons) are living next door. John is an "Ag Lab" - most likely working for Henry.
1861 census says that John was born in Llantillo Crosseney, Wales
1871 census says that John was born in Monmouth, Llanvihangel
If it is Llantillo Crosseney, then he is most likely the son of Sarah Watkins & Rees Rees. If Llanvihangel ... on is near by... then I have to wait until I can access those parish records to see if there was a John born about that time - 1827.
Can you explain about the parish charging the father maint?? How did that work??
THANK YOU!!!
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http://www.workhouses.org.uk/Monmouth/
http://www.workhouses.org.uk/poorlaws/newpoorlaw.shtml
The workhouse website is as good as anywhere to start for background to the poorlaws: I'm not saying that your man was chargeable on the parish/union, but that sometimes when a girl had a child when unmarried that the Guardians would want to know who the father was, they might have needed to place affliation orders against the father.
And again as I have said the Welsh registers (the Vicar) seem to enter the father's name more frequently than English clergymen. Very dependent upon the incumbant and his knowledge of the girl and family.
Llanvihangel (if you look at the map of Monmouthshire) has many entries, I would be inclined to think (if that transcription you have is of this parish) to suggest that Llantilio Crosseny is the parish of his birth..........
Where was he, or who was he with in the later censuses, that have the different entries? If he was 'lodging' or a servant in another household, then don't forget the census would have been entered by the head of the household, who could just put anything. Sometimes people can't remember where they were born.!!!
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Yes, OTP was for Llantillo Crosseney. That was why I 'thought' that was where he was born & especially with the 1861 census naming Llantill Crosseny as his birth place.
But for his wife, Elizabeth... it also says Llantillo Crosseney or OTP on their marrige. She was born in Clodock, Hereforshire... so I can't really go by the "OTP" for John as birth place... can I???
Of the census records that I KNOW are him... since he is married and I am unsure of the ones before:
The 1861 Llanbedr, Breconshire census says he was born in Llantillo Crosseney. Llantillo Crosseney is where he was living a the time of his marriage in 1857.
Elizabeth's father, Henry dies in 1868 and by the 1871 census John & Eliz's two eldest sons are still in Llanbedr with their Widowed Grandmother while the "Watkins" family moves on to Llangenny, Breconshire.
The 1871 Llangenny census that says Llanvihangel, Monmouth
The 1881 Llangenny census just says "Monmouthshire" for birth place.
He died in 1883. Age 56 at death fits with the 1827 birth date. Elizabeth lives in Llagenny until her death about 1903.
Thank you to all!
Charlotte
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The "OTP" on a marriage entry just indicates where the person was living at the time of the marriage -- and as the residence qualification was a mere 3 weeks it certainly cannot be taken as any indication of their birthplace
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If they only needed three weeks to be married in that parish... then maybe I need to look at one of the nearby Llanvihangel parishes.
Would it have the place of his birth on his death record? There are TWO John Watkins... same age, same place & time in the index. How do I know which is mine if I order? Is there any way to find out, before to be sure it is the one I want??
I've been looking at the Llangenny area & it is quite small. That is where John & Elizabeth both lived when they died. Would the parish Church yard be their burial place?
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No, it won't have his place of birth on his death certificate -- that wasn't introduce untill (i think) the 1960's
You could contact the local Register Office with the details that you know (last known address, occupation, wife) and see if one of the certificates match those details.
(Thos this isn't foolproof -- i recently did this and got told they couldnt find the certificate -which turned out to be because the son-in-law who gave the information gave the wrong forename for his MIL's husband who had died some 40 yrs earlier)
As for being buried in the parish churchyard -- that would depend on how big a graveyard it has -- if only a small graveyard it could be full and burials take place at the municipal cemetary some miles away. Or, particularly in Wales, there could be a number of small Chapels in the area that might have graveyards