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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Kent => England => Kent Lookup Requests => Topic started by: Phaydra on Tuesday 24 April 12 01:46 BST (UK)
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Hello all, I haven't posted in a few years, but im stumped! I have managed to find most of my drake family in folkestone, kent. John Thomas Drake was the owner of the Pavillion Hotel from the 1858 (courtesy of Melvilles directory 1858) till his death (according to his will) on aug 8 1891. Where im stumped is that 1851 census has his birth as 1817 ish, but all the others have him at 1821ish. His will however does add up to being born in 1816. Now, two things. I can't find his birth anywhere in order to find his parents names. He was born in Chatham. Second, I cannot find him or his family in the 1861 census anywhere, although during that time he would have been still at the pavillion. I've tried looking for them in other areas, and abroad thinking they might have gone on holiday, but i can't find them. In the 1851, he is listed at custom house quay with his wife, but is listed as the son (should read son in law) because the head of the household is william wood. i was thinking that mary wood, his wife could have been his mother, and she remarried after his father died, but i can't find a marriage. It could be his wifes family, his wifes maiden name was elizabeth major rayner, and her mothers name had been mary rayner and her father charles. I cant find a birth or death for charles, or a marriage for these two. I'm totally stumped. can anyone help me figure this out? i feel like its right there staring at me in the face and im just missing something... John thomas drakes son was named stephen butcher drake, he was my great great grandfather. thank you so much.
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If he was CofE you might find his baptism in the Chatham baptisms on the Cityark website.
http://cityark.medway.gov.uk/
Look under Parish Registers Online.
Ian C
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thank you Ian,
I did look, pages and pages. I looked all the way through 1816 to 1821 with nothing. I'm not sure where to go from here. I know I've got the right guy and I know the family was church of england. hmm it's a mystery...
Sincerely, Ang
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John Thomas Drake was the owner of the Pavillion Hotel from the 1858 (courtesy of Melvilles directory 1858) till his death (according to his will) on aug 8 1891.
I can't find his birth anywhere in order to find his parents names. He was born in Chatham.
Could this be a possibility although the year is 1811 ???
John Thomas Drake
19 May 1811 Chatham Kent
parents William Drake & Sarah
I wonder if he was their second son, first possibly died
John Drake
15 Jan 1809 Chatham, Kent, England
parents William Drake & Sarah
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1861 RG 9; Piece: 549; Folio: 7; Page: 8; -
Custom House Quay Pavillion Inn
John T DRAKE 45 Chatham Kent occ Mariner?
Elisabeth 39 Folkestone
Mary Myer L 18
John F 16
Stephen B 12 Dover Kent
Charlott T E 8 "
Thos Robinson visitor 28
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oh wow!! you found it! i knew i was close...thank you so much! it is the right family. I knew a new pair of eyes could make all the difference!
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family search has John's father named as John
Marriage 01/ /11/1838 St Mary the Virgin Dover Kent
John Thomas Drake father John Drake
Elizabeth Major Rayner father Charles
and Elizabeth's christening
Elizabeth Major Rayner ch 22 Jul 1818 Folkestone Kent parents Charles & Mary
possible brother
Charles Henry Rayner 9 Aug 1816 Folkestone
Parents Charles & Mary
I wondering if their mother's maiden name is MAJOR
can't find a marriage Charles RAYNER to Mary MAJOR ???
there is this christening (source familysearch)
Mary Major ch. 16 Dec 1800 Folkestone Kent
Parents John & Mary
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ladyhawk,
I have come across those dates for john and have wondered, but I don't get how the 1851and 1861 says 1817 chatham, and then the 71-91 say 1821, and then his will online says (died aug 8/1891) says he was 75... which again puts his bdate back to 1816. but even checking the parish registers there is nothing. can anyone tell me how these dates can be so off when i know ive got the right person? thank you so much for your help. you could be right about the second son, it did happen that the first died and they named the second the same...
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Two years given same date & month year 1830 & 1831
Mary Major Rayner married William Wood
29 Oct 1831 St James The Apostle Dover Kent
both widowed
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Hi Lady hawk,
I agree with everything you have found. It makes sense, although the 1811 birth for John listed his parents as william and sarah, but the marriage said that his fathers name was john...? its all so confusing.
how do i go about confirming this when i can't find a birthdate for john thomas?
The rayner marriage is a mystery. Somewhere on ancestry, someone has listed that mary major rayner's maiden name was formage...which would make sense being that she gave one of her sons the middle name formage. But I discounted it because the source wasn't verified, and because i couldn't find a marriage.
My main goal here is to try and close the gap i have with the drakes on the drake website. they have a whole wealth of history, and i've got a gap of roughly 120 years. I'm not sure at this point which line (i think there are 4 main ones) i belong to.
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Hi Everyone,
Okay, I have checked family search, the chatham christening records on the medway site (all unindexed, took me three hours, no luck) anscestry doesn't have it either. I have done research on the chatham area, and it seems that there was ship building going on about the time he was born. "Mariner" is an occupation that carries on for most of the drake men further down the line, so I'm wondering a) Is there anywhere else I could try looking for his birth/christening records? I checked the medway records for st marys and i looked from 1810-1821 to cover all my bases. I found nothing. There is the John drake with parents william and sarah, but his father is listed as john drake on the marriage certificate when he married in 1838. B) can anyone tell me a place i might be able to find records of the men who worked on the boats there, and what were they called? mariners? were they part of some organization back then? everything i have stumbled across just gives the blurb about how ships were built there in chatham. c) st marys appears to be the only church in the area at the time so i am unsure where else to look. help? any ideas for me??
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Hello,
I hope i can help you.Briefly stephen butcher married elizabeth Major (daur) of David Major)Elizabeth was born in 1763.Their daughter Mary Major butcher married charles Rayner,(she had been married to a Formage prior to this.They had a daughter Elizabeth Major Rayner and also a nother Mary Ann Rayner who married edward iverson and from whom I descend.I just cant find the birth for charles rayner circa 1780.Can anyone help out?
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John Thomas Drake was the owner of the Pavillion Hotel from the 1858 (courtesy of Melvilles directory 1858) till his death (according to his will) on aug 8 1891. He was born in Chatham.
His wifes maiden name was Elizabeth Major Rayner, her mothers name Mary Rayner father Charles. I cant find a birth or death for Charles, or a marriage for these two. I'm totally stumped.
John Thomas Drake's son was named Stephen Butcher Drake, he was my great great grandfather. thank you so much.
Stephen Butcher married Elizabeth Major (daur) of David Major, Elizabeth was born in 1763.
Their daughter Mary Major Butcher married Charles Rayner (she had been married to a Formage prior to this. They had a daughter Elizabeth Major Rayner and also another Mary Ann Rayner who married Edward Iverson from whom I descend.
Just posting this info. (which I'm sure you have) on Formage, Butcher, Rayner & Iverson to confirm marriage/christening details (source family search)
20 Dec 1803 Folkestone, Kent, England
John Formage to Mary Butcher
18 Sep 1806 St Mary The Virgin,Dover Kent
Mary Formage to Charles Rayner
christenings
Mary Ann Rainer 19 Jul 1809 Folkestone Kent
Stephen Butcher Rainer 11 Feb 1807 “ “
Parents Charles Rainer & Mary
marriage
Mary Ann Rayner to Edward Iverson
28 Jun 1827 St James The Apostle,Dover,Kent,England
I see that Mary Ann & Edward Iverson gave their children middle names of
Butcher, Drake, Major, Formage & Rayner
Elizabeth Butcher Iverson 30 Sep 1829 Folkestone
Margaret Butcher Iverson b1846
married Charles Jarrett 27 Oct 1879
Rachel Lydia Drake Iverson
married 17 Sep 1866 Elias Alfred Richards
Elizabeth Major Iverson 18 May 1832 Folkestone
married James John Pittock 19 Jan 1848 St Mary the Virgin Church Dover
Stephen Rayner Iverson 27 May 1836 Folkestone
married Emily Pittock 4 May 1858 St Mary the Virgin church Dover Kent
Richard Formage Iverson 24 Nov 1839 Folkestone
1881 PH 115 Snargate St Dover St Mary Kent
Mary A Iverson widow 69, dau Rachel Richards 37,
gd/sons James 15 , Edward 8 & John S Richards 4,
gd/dau Emily Iverson 17, son Stephen Iverson married 45 Mariner
I just cant find the birth for Charles Rayner circa 1780.
Can anyone help out?
I'm wondering if this could be Charles Rayner
Charles Rayner christening 14 Aug 1785 Wye, Kent parents Edward Rayner & Ann
There are also these christenings in Wye Kent parents named Edward Rayner & Ann
Anne 29 Mar 1767
Edward 4 Feb 1770
Elizabeth 12 Apr 1772
Fanny 1 Dec 1776
Hetty 20 Jun 1779
Paul 22 Jul 1783
Judith 25 Mar 1788
And a possible marriage
7 Jan 1764 Holy Cross Canterbury Kent
Edward Rayner to Ann Tufenden
(source family search)
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thank you so much! that finally solves the "where did butcher and major come from" I've been trying to find the link for years. I have a question, you mention that charles rayner and mary major had two daughters, mary ann and elizabeth. I have more children for these two and im wondering if anyone can confirm if i have this correct. all info from family search.
Stephen butcher rayner 1807 folkstone kent
Mary ann rayner 1809 ""
charles henry 09/aug 1816""
Elizabeth major rayner 1818""
Susanna rayner 1822 ""
Now, I have a copy of the marriage certificate for John Thomas Drake and Elizabeth Major rayner. I thought it might help me get a birthdate for this john, but no. However, One of the witnesses to this marriage was susanna rayner, and also a william carpenter (dont know who he is yet). On the certificate it lists johns father as being john drake occupation listed as a mariner. There are so many john drakes! I have no idea how to figure out which one he is. Elizabeths father is charles rayner and his occupation is also listed as a mariner, if that helps anyone. Is there anywhere i can get more info on "mariners" of that time?? it seems like such a blanket title for so many professions.
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Thankyou Ladyhawk,
I have considered this Edward and anne Rayner but as yet I am not totally sure.I would love to know where the Drake came in?Also my father had mentioned descent from the carey,s.Tracing back my ancestry I find no sign of that name either!Much apreciate your info here!Mine briefly charles jarrett married margaret butcher iverson.Their daughter Augusta was my grandmother.I have charles father as george jarrett and susan seller.The iversons I can get way back with.Kent records are pretty well kept.Thanks again
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i would also love to know where the drakes came in, because obviously farther down the line they come into the tree again with my line. hmmm. some kind of connection but what..hmm
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In this communication there is a reference to a child of Rachel Richards (Iverson) as John S age 4 from a UK Census. It is likely form my research that this is John T as the transcriber as read a cursive T as an S.
The person in question John T is probably my grandfather. I am trying to find out how is mother went from Iverson to Richards in other words John T's father.
If any one can help that would be great. I know I am on the right track because my father once showed me a Pittock grave at Dover as a distant relative.
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Welcome to Rootschat This family ???
Rachel L D IVERSON married (one of the two possible spouses) Elias A RICHARDS September quarter 1866 Dover registration district ref. 2a 1280 htp://freebmd.rootsweb.com
1871 1 Commercial Quay, Dover St Mary
Elias Alfred RICHARDS head mar 27 tailor b.Ionian Islands
Rachel Lydia wife 27 b.London
James Adam son 4 b.Dover
Mary Ann dau 3wks b.Dover
/
Edward IVERSON head mar 64 mariner b.Folkestone
Mary wife 64 b.Folkestone
Mary Ann HORN? servant unm 21 domestic servant b.Langdon Kent
RG10/1009 folio 143 page 28
Casalguidi :)
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Thanks for your reply.
There is a gap in the records because I have census extracts for Rachel Richards as a widow with two sons - one being John T (being Thomas). It is in 1881 Census and has been edited to include Iverson.
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Yes, the 1881 census would be the same family.
Rachel Lydia Drake RICHARDS widow of 64 Snargate Street, Dover died 15 January 1982. Probate to James Adam Iverson RICHARDS, engineer and Mary Ann IVERSON spinster £48.
Elias Alfred RICHARDS of 114 Snargate Street, Dover died 7 May 1877. Will proved by Rachel Lydia Drak RICHARDS, widow of the deceased and of the same address. Effects under £100.
Mary Ann IVERSON of 114 Snargate Street, Dover died 16 May 1883. Will proved by Elizabeth Major PITTOCK (daughter) and James John PITTOCK, master mariner, son in law of 64 Snargate Street Dover. £205.
Casalguidi :)
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Hi Everyone,
Okay, I have checked family search, the chatham christening records on the medway site (all unindexed, took me three hours, no luck) anscestry doesn't have it either. I have done research on the chatham area, and it seems that there was ship building going on about the time he was born. "Mariner" is an occupation that carries on for most of the drake men further down the line, so I'm wondering a) Is there anywhere else I could try looking for his birth/christening records? I checked the medway records for st marys and i looked from 1810-1821 to cover all my bases. I found nothing. There is the John drake with parents william and sarah, but his father is listed as john drake on the marriage certificate when he married in 1838. B) can anyone tell me a place i might be able to find records of the men who worked on the boats there, and what were they called? mariners? were they part of some organization back then? everything i have stumbled across just gives the blurb about how ships were built there in chatham. c) st marys appears to be the only church in the area at the time so i am unsure where else to look. help? any ideas for me??
I may have found the Drake connection,that is if the family were aware of this distant link.In my tree I have Mildred Steward who married John Mummery.Her parents as far as I can see were probably Thomas Steward and Jane Drake,Thomas Steward was born in Devon in 1630 as was Jane Drake in 1631..The family have an explorer / mariner history.Janes father was sir William Drake 1596 and his wife margaret Westover.Sir William Drakes father was sir John Drake who married Dorothy Button.Lots of information online.He is Lady Dianas 10th great grandfather.Now I may be wrong but this may explain the use of Drake?