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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: majicmiss on Monday 23 April 12 04:37 BST (UK)
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:)
Hi all Im looking for any information on Elizabeth Bridget Muldoon, born 1835 in Drum Killah County Cavan, her parents are listed as Patrick Muldoon and Betty M. The story we have been told is that the family sailed to Australia but Elizabeths parents both died on the trip and she was taken in by another family, they settled in Carcoar NSW. Elizabeth married John Hoad in 1851 when she was 16 and its from these 2 my family has sprung.
I have no idea how to go about finding the ship they may have sailed on or if her parents did actually die on the voyage over here. Any advice would be appreciated.
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Welcome to Rootschat. I'm going to move this topic to Australia board as the members there will have more experience with the shipping records and Australian resources.
If you were thinking about trying to trace your ancestors in Ireland have a look at Introduction to Irish Records (http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,442233.0.html) and My Ancestor came from Ireland - where do I start? (http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,498742.0.html).
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Thank you so much.
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Hi
Where did you find her parents names please?
When did JOHN HOAD die and did ELIZABETH die under the name HOAD?
Sue
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I can see children born to this couple at Carcoar 1856-1872, John and Bridget/Elizabeth Bridget,
but no marriage.
Have you located a marriage record for her?
What is the source of your information about parents and birth year and place for Bridget please?
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majicmiss,
It looks like she arrived on the John Knox in 1850. This is the link to the passenger list on the NSW State Archives site - page 10 and she is listed under Muldown:
http://srwww.records.nsw.gov.au/ebook/list.asp?Page=NRS5316/4_4786/John%20Knox_29%20Apr%201850/4_478600517.jpg&No=10
If you have access to Ancestry you should search for her (under Muldown) as that passenger list is slightly different - it gives her parents names and the fact they are deceased.
Christine.
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Looking at the passenger list this ship has single young girls and young families.
And "parents deceased" is information about Bridget, not that they died on the ship?.
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I can see children born to this couple at Carcoar 1856-1872, John and Bridget/Elizabeth Bridget,
but no marriage.
Have you located a marriage record for her?
What is the source of your information about parents and birth year and place for Bridget please?
Hi the marriage certificate has her husband John Hoad listed as John Hood and Elizabeth is listed as Bridget Moldoon, the marriage took place in Carcoar 1852. I was given a copy of the original from a family member. Her parents names were on her marriage certificate also.
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Looking at the passenger list this ship has single young girls and young families.
And "parents deceased" is information about Bridget, not that they died on the ship?.
AHA!! well that makes sense!! Any ideas on where I go now to find her family?? LOL
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Hi
Where did you find her parents names please?
When did JOHN HOAD die and did ELIZABETH die under the name HOAD?
Sue
Hi Sue I got her parents names from family members. John Hoad died in 1878 in Carcoar and Elizabeth died in 1898 in Marrangulla NSW.
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Any ideas on where I go now to find her family?? LOL
I think you would need to go to the Irish board of Rchat to locate information about her parents etc.
Sue
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Before posting on Cavan board- have a look at Introduction to Irish Records (http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,442233.0.html) and My Ancestor came from Ireland - where do I start? (http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,498742.0.html).
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Elizabeth Bridget MULDOON (aka Bridget MULDOON aka Bridget MULDOWN aka Bridget MOLDOON)
Bridget arrived in Sydney on 29th April 1850 aboard the John Knox; she was one of 4412 Irish orphans who arrived in Australia between 1848 - 1850 under the "Earl Grey Irish Orphans Famine Scheme".
Bridget was born in Drumkillah, County Cavan in 1835, her parents were Patrick MULDOON and Elizabeth (Betty) UNKNOWN.
Bridget's details are listed on the John Knox passenger manifest as follows:
Name: MULDOWN Bridget
Age: 15
Occupation: Houseservant
Native Place and County: Drumkillah, Cavan
Religion: Church of Rome
Read or Write: Neither
Bridget married John HOAD in Carcoar in 1852 (the groom's surname was misspelled as HOOD and the bride's surname misspelled as MOLDOON in the NSW Marriage Index).
Sources:
NSW/State Records/Index of Immigration and Shipping Records - John Knox 1850.
NSW/State Records/Index of Marriages - NSW BDM V18521531 3C/1852.
www.irishfaminememorial.org
Some information has been proposed that her surname was McKENZIE, however, there is no information available to support this. It is possible that McKENZIE was the surname of the family in Australia she was indentured to as a house-servant prior to her marriage to John Hoad in 1852.
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Welcome hero12b :)
That's a grand bit of research you are sharing there.
May I add to the info re the 1852 marriage :)
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XTCK-147 this gives the date as 27 Jan 1852 and is based on the transcript of the Church of England's parish register, most likely currently located at the C of E archives at Bathurst.
The NSW BDM reference is V1852571 38C/1852 which is slightly different from NSW/State Records/Index of Marriages - NSW BDM V18521531 3C/1852.
Cheers, JM
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Thanks for the information but I'm not sure we have the same person, Elizabeth Bridget didn't marry a John Thomas Ingram 15 Aug 1853, she did marry a John Hoad though. Back to the drawing board for me then. :P
Surname : Muldown (Mildown, Muldoon)
First Name : Bridget
Age on arrival : 15
Native Place : Drumkillan [Drumkilly], Cavan
Parents : Patrick & Betty (both dead)
Religion : Roman Catholic
Ship name : John Knox (Sydney Apr 1850)
Workhouse : Cavan, Cavan
Other : Shipping: houseservant, cannot read or write, no relations in colony. Im.Cor 51/117 as Muldoon, indentures returned, 25 Mar 1851, apprenticed in Bathurst district; married John Thomas Ingram 15 Aug 1853; 15 children; died 1925 S-W Qld; many descendants on Ancestry.
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Sorry - I'm a bit confused. (In this post 'm using the names as shown on the documents or indexes, but it seems that this would be the same person)
There is this marriage:
NSW 571/1852 V1852571 38C
John HOOD, Bridget MOLDOON,
Church code: NR (NR= Church of England, Carcoar)
and this one:
NSW 423/1853 V1853423 99
John INGRAM, Bridget MULDOON
Church code: LK (LK= Roman Catholic at Maitland.
So, my understanding is that you have the marriage certificate for the HOOD marriage in 1852 and that the bride's parents' names match the immigration entry below?
Where did you find the information in your last post? I'm wondering who compiled the info as it is possible that their information has been attached to the wrong Bridget.
The only Bridget MULDOWN that I can see on the John Knox is the one whose information you have given below:
Bridget Muldoon, born 1835 in Drum Killah County Cavan, her parents are listed as Patrick Muldoon and Betty M.
(There are 2 entries on the immigration entry on the Ancestry index one which gives the birthplace as Cork but when you look at the actual image it is the Cavan address.)
Judith
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I see now that the information is from the Irish Famine Orphan Girl Database. A lot depends on the parent names shown on the marriage certificate. ::)
http://www.irishfaminememorial.org/orphans/database/?surName=muldown&firstName=bridget&age=0&nativePlace=cavan&parents=&religion=0&ship=18
The public trees give the origin of the Bridget who married John INGRAM as being Enniskillen Northern Ireland and one gives her parents as Thomas MULDOON and Jane CAMPBELL. None of these trees give a proper reference for their information.
Does the marriage certificate have names of witnesses?
Judith
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Hi I do have a copy of the marriage certificate but no witnesses are listed which is odd. Thanks for all your searching :)
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Ok. Sometimes, in early days the names of the witnesses were not recorded on the information sent to the Govt registrar. Sometimes they are helpful in finding other relatives.
Were her parents listed as Patrick and Betty?
Judith
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Yes Patrick and Betty were listed as parents.
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In that case I suggest that the Irish Famine Orphans site has attached the later details of Bridget to the wrong girl.
There was a Bridget MULDOON married a John INGRAM in 1853 in the Maitland area but I am 99.9% sure that she is quite a different person to your Bridget. I think it is the information about this other Bridget that the Irish Orphan site has attached to your Bridget. This is the information I believe to be incorrect, although the indentures/apprenticeship may be correct)
indentures returned, 25 Mar 1851, apprenticed in Bathurst district; married John Thomas Ingram 15 Aug 1853; 15 children; died 1925 S-W Qld; many descendants on Ancestry.
There is documentary evidence that Bridget MULDOWN, parents Patrick and Betty, born Cavan, arrived on the John Knox. The marriage certificate that you have states that Bridget MULDOON, parents Patrick and Betty, was married in Carcoar to John HOOD/HOAD. These documents seem to me to be for the same person.
Does the marriage certificate give her place of birth? Obviously if it's Cavan this is another indicator that your Bridget is the one who arrived per John Knox.
What do you think?
Judith
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I think your absolutely right Judith :) I will email the Orphans website administrator with my documentation and see if they can change her details.
Thanks for all your help with this.
Jill
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I have enjoyed the hunt, Jill.
I haven't tried very hard but I haven't seen the arrival of the other Bridget, so have no idea if she was also an Irish Orphan girl.
Let me know what the Irish Orphan website says after you have passed on the info.
Cheers, Judith :)
Do you have John HOOD/HOAD's background?
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Hi Judith Happy New Year!
Yes I have all the information on the Hoads, interesting family. When I first started my tree I concentrated on the women, I couldn't even begin to imagine the hardships they would have come against on a daily basis.
So now Im moving on to those brick walls I have LOL
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Hi I do have a copy of the marriage certificate but no witnesses are listed which is odd. Thanks for all your searching :)
Hi there,
Yes, that's odd not to have the names of the witnesses. May I please ask a couple of questions about that copy that you hold.
:) Is it issued by an official transcription agent? , and if so, is it a partial transcription (you can pay for particular parts of the document to be transcribed, and alternatively you can also pay for all of the document to be transcribed.)
:) Is it the NSW BDM issued certificate? and, if so, is it a recent issue, or was it issued say back in the 1970s? It is possible that the NSW BDM's practices in earlier decades did not include typing up the names of the witnesses. (I have several NSW BDM issued documents from 1970s, for marriages prior to 1856, and NO witnesses noted on the NSW BDM issued certs, HOWEVER, ;D the witnesses names ARE on the NSW BDM holdings, and have been included on the NSW BDM typed up pre 1856 marriage certs for several decades.
There's other possibilities, but if you have a NSW BDM marriage cert (or official transcription) and there's no record of the witnesses on that document, it is likely that ordering a new transcription will give you the witness names. That detail was recorded by the clergy when marrying couples in NSW from the commencement of settlement, and of course was a requirement of the laws and regulations of the various denominations, in the original parish register.
It is entirely possible that the NSW BDM holdings do not have the original details, and perhaps only hold a summary.
:) Sorry for being so long winded, BUT from the marriage certificate you do have, it will give you the name of the clergyman, the denomination (according to the rites of ...........) and where the ceremony was conducted. From that info you can seek out the original registration, and in many instances the original local parish registers are extant.
Cheers, JM
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Hi Judith,
Went to my mums today and searched through all her documents and things, I found the certificate for Elizabeths marriage which I have attached (hopefully), I thought her parents were listed but they are not, it does however have the witness names.
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Hmmm, so we don't have documentary evidence that this is the girl whose parents are Patrick and Betty, from Cavan :(
Do you have any of her children's birth certificates which may show where she was born? Are her parents' names listed on her death certificate?
Majm is a brilliant researcher with encyclopedic knowledge when it comes to NSW early documents so I will be interested in any further comments from her, although she has already ade it clear that you will probably need to hunt down the original Carcoar church registers.
Judith
FamilySearch has the marriage listed on their database
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XTCK-147
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Hi there,
May I just mention that the lass who arrived on the John KNOX seems to have been of the Church of Rome, while the lass who married at Carcoar was married by the local Anglican chap (Rev P P Agnew). I would expect that the lass marrying at Carcoar was an Anglican.
Land was granted by the NSW Governor in 1849 for a residence, a school, etc for the Roman Catholic Church at Carcoar.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/12916782 SMH 29 March 1850
So, I think there needs to be some further research, to positively eliminate the INGRAM marriage of 1853 from the lass who arrived on the John Knox.
Cheers, JM
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Welcome hero12b :)
That's a grand bit of research you are sharing there.
May I add to the info re the 1852 marriage :)
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XTCK-147 this gives the date as 27 Jan 1852 and is based on the transcript of the Church of England's parish register, most likely currently located at the C of E archives at Bathurst.
The NSW BDM reference is V1852571 38C/1852 which is slightly different from NSW/State Records/Index of Marriages - NSW BDM V18521531 3C/1852.
Cheers, JM
Ummmm ...... I am not brilliant ...... ::) afterall, I still have not found the 1852 marriage from volume 3C line 1531 :) even though the new NSW BDM website allows searching by reference number. :-[ :-[ :-[
Cheers, JM
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https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XTZN-5PV
15 Aug 1853, Catholic :)
Cheers, JM
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Hmmm, so we don't have documentary evidence that this is the girl whose parents are Patrick and Betty, from Cavan :(
Do you have any of her children's birth certificates which may show where she was born? A
Hi there,
The NSW BDM's birth certs include the details of the marriage (where, when) for the parents of the baby whose birth is being registered :) as well as where the parents were born, their then ages, and more family history details too. So, if you were to order a full official transcription for the youngest child, you will get the details about all that child's older siblings as well. ;D
Cheers, JM
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Too modest, JM ::)
I think you're right - ordering at least one of the children's birth certificate should do the trick, and, as you say, the youngest is probably the best one to choose although occasionally by the youngest the parents - dare I say, often the father - are a bit bored and just put something very unhelpful such as "Ireland" with no county, town, village etc. I have one of these in my lot >:(
The other avenue would be to access the indenture papers mentioned in the Irish Orphan site. I have no idea how you would go about that but perhaps compilers of that site would be able to help, so that we can sort these Bridgets out.
Just a small point - I note that the apprenticeship cited by the Orphan site was in the Bathurst district which is closer to Carcoar - Maitland is further away and would be well out of the Bathurst administrative district
Judith
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http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/102625364 Carcoar Chronicle 3 June 1898
Mrs Hoad’s death at Marangulla (I know that there's a creek by that name that is near to Carcoar).
However, I cannot find that on the NSW BDM index (to look for her given names, and her parents names too), and to complicate it further, there's a public tree at Ancestry (unsourced) which has the exact date of death as 28 October, 1898, aged 63, at Carcoar, and I cannot find that death indexed either ::) .
I can find two families at Carcoar having babies in the 1850s/60s/70s with surname as HOAD and mum as BRIDGET (so two different fathers as William or as John, so two different lasses named Bridget)
I have been looking for Carcoar’s 1850s COX and VICKERY families in my offline records. Perhaps I have found “the box” but need to have someone climb up and fetch it down from atop a wardrobe.
As those indentures were returned 25 March 1851, she would have needed to find work herself until she married the following year.
Cheers, JM
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http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/bdm_fh.html
I have not found the NSW BDM registration for the 1898 deaths of either of the Mrs Hoad. (I tried as Hood, Head, Hird, Hoad and as H???) So I have tried restricting my online search to Carcoar, 1898, and using the wild card asterisk option for the surname. Sadly, I have yet to find either. But as an aside, I can see where the local deputy Registrar for BDMs was fairly diligent, and submitted his returns on a quarterly basis (sometimes the rural deputies errr may have been a tad slow on lodging these returns to the Registrar General’s offices in Sydney.) http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/bdm_fh.html
Death registrations Carcoar District 1898
First Quarter registrations :1098/1898 to 1107/1898 inclusive (includes a December 1897 death)
Secord Quarter registrations: 5066/1898 to 5072/1898 incl
Third Quarter registrations: 9066/1898 to 9081/1898 incl
Fourth quarter registrations 13428/1898 to 13445/1898 incl
Registered early 1899, late 1898 deaths 1131/1899 to 1135/1899 incl
Cheers, JM
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I have noticed that there’s both a John HOAD and a John HOOD in the then Carcoar district of the 1870s.
Grevilles PO Directory 1872 LYNDHURST
John HOAD, innkeeper Frenchmans Reef
Grevilles PO Directory 1875 LYNDHURST (near Carcoar)
John HOAD, innkeeper, Cowra Road
NSW Electoral Roll 1878 CARCOAR
John HOAD, freehold, Five Mile Creek, Carcoar
John HOOD, residence, Blayney
Cheers, JM
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This is all FANTASTIC WORK!! The youngest child was Eva Hoad so I can order her birth certificate and see what comes up.I noticed on Bridget's daughter Elizabeth death certificate Bridget is listed as a McKenzie? Are there any other certificates you think would be helpful in figuring out whether Bridget was an Irish orphan or not?
Jill
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Do you have Bridget's dc? and if so, what info is on that?
The info on a death registration is sometimes far less reliable than first hand information, so you need to consider who was the informant, how would they have known the info, and many other factors, including that they were likely suffering grief.
Please don't spend your pennies on the NSW BDM real deal certificates, please, if you are ordering certificates, please consider the alternative option which NSW BDM promotes on their own website. (Cheaper, already transcribed, comes as email attachment :) )
http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/bdm_fh.html#transcription
Also do remember that sometimes the Dads registered their babies, and so the info that Dad gives about himself should be more reliable than his 'second hand' info about his wife. And of course, sometimes the Mums register their babies, and so the info about herself should be more reliable than her 'second hand' info about her husband.
If this were my family, I would hasten slowly, and obtain just the one document to start, .... so I would consider a full transcription of the birth registration of the youngest child. But, if you do not yet have the birth registration for your own direct line, then perhaps you may want to obtain that official transcription too. And perhaps you would be striking it a tad lucky and find that Dad registered one and Mum registered the other .... and so compare their memories too ;D
Cheers, JM
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Death:
HOADE Elizabeth B d. 18 May 1898 CARCOAR #5072
Father: UNKNOWN
Mother: UNKNOWN
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Agh, thanks Merlin :)
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http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/102629063 Carcoar Chronicle 27 May 1898 Application for Probate, Elizabeth Bridget HOAD, Widow, late of Marangulla, near Lyndhurst. George and Arthur HOAD as executors.
Cheers, JM
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http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/page/10934874 Friday 20 May 1898, Carcoar Chronicle.
A very old and respected resident, Mrs Hoad, of the Five-Mile, died early this morning. She had been suffering for some considerable time. Mrs Hoad was attended by Dr. Hawthorne. Much sympathy is expressed for the bereaved family.
Cheers, JM
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http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/102629062 Carcoar Chronicle 27 May 1898
The late Mrs Hoad, sen. The following has been sent to us by a correspondent at Marangulla. It is with feelings of regret that I have to record the death of an old and respected resident of Marangulla, in the person of Mrs Hoad, sen.
The deceased lady was suffering for a long time. The sad event took place on Wednesday, 18th inst. She will be sadly missed by many, as she was held in the highest esteem by all her neighbors and friends. The funeral took place on Thursday, 19th inst., and was one of the largest ever seen in the district.
The remains were interred in the Church of England portion of the local cemetery, the Rev.Canon Shedden officiating at the grave.
Mrs Hoad leaves behind her two sons and five daughters, all of whom are married and doing well ; she also has a large number of grand children and great grand-children.
The deceased lady was 68 years of age.
Many beautiful wreaths were sent from all parts of the district. Deep sympathy is expressed for the family in their sad bereavement.
:) 1898 - 68 years of age = born about 1830.
Cheers, JM
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http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/102624638 12 Jan 1900 Carcoar Chronicle
A further probate notice.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/102629063 Carcoar Chronicle 27 May 1898 Application for Probate, Elizabeth Bridget HOAD, Widow, late of Marangulla, near Lyndhurst. George and Arthur HOAD as executors.
Cheers, JM
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I have Bridgets death certificate will try and attach it without making it too small or it might be difficult to read.
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http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=708903.0
Lyndhurst pdf
C of E section of Lyndhurst, several with the surname HOAD, including an Elizabeth HOAD. (No dates)
Cheers, JM
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Bridget's headstone
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I cant seem to get it to attach Bridgets death certificate but I'll keep trying.
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Perhaps you could type up your own transcription of Bridget's dc? That way you would not be likely to infringe any possible RChat rules.
Full name (Christian and Surnames) of the deceased
sex and age at death,
date and place of death,
place of residence,
usual occupation and marital status at death
Name/address of informant and their relationship to the deceased
Place of marriage,
age when married,
full name of spouse
Children's name and ages (chronological order for those then living, followed by gender and number of any who had not survived)
Both Parent's names and mother's maiden name if known
Cause of death and duration of last illness, Name of doctor certifying cause/s
Burial date and place, name of Reverend, and name of Funeral Director, and two official witnesses
Cheers, JM
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Hi, I'm having a bit of a dig re the other Bridget who I'll call BI (Bridget Ingram) for ease of discussion.
There are a few public trees with this lady on, including a photo of her with her husband James Ingram and their last child Matthew James INGRAM, 1878-1943. I'm guessing that your Bridget did not have a son of this name and date?
The tree has the place of birth for BI as Eniskillen, Northern Ireland but there is no documentation as to how this birthplace has been arrived at. BI died in Qld 1925.
1925 C628
Bridget INGRAM
Father: Muldoon - ** born Ireland aged 91 years
It doesn't look hopeful that there would be any further info by buying that certificate, as it would be likely that the informant may have been this son Matthew James INGRAM as he appears to have been living in Yuleba/Yeulba? Qld at the same time as she was. As she was so old it seems to me likley that an informant may know little about her parents, and birthplace. Qld images are available for immediate download at $20. I'd be waiting till we dig a bit more, though!!
Judith
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Working from data given in the public trees this may be the arrival of the other Bridget cited on this list:
http://www.blaxland.com/ozships/
Sources:
primary source AO 4/2378
secondary source COD 394
secondary source COD 425
Muldoon Thomas ao:cod425
Muldoon Jane and 4 children
I cannot readily ascertain what these sources are. ::)
EdIt to add: From another website this looks as though it is the source:
State Records out at Kingswood only have a faded photo
copy of this ships passengers list in a book ref COD 425
Edit to add:
per ship Adam Lodge arr NSW 1837
Sorry about late edits. :-[
Judith
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Has Bridget MULDOWNEY been eliminated from consideration? She was aged 18, arriving in Nov 1849 on the William and Mary.
http://srwww.records.nsw.gov.au/ebook/list.asp?series=NRS5316&item=4_4786&ship=William%20and%20Mary
Cheers, JM
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Ooops - sorry - just added date of arrival of the ship Adam Lodge - 1837 - which probably had a Bridget MULDOON as an unnamed child. :-[ Judith
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Hope these come through ok, I thought it quicker to photograph them and send them that way :)
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Hi there,
Elizabeth Bridget HOADE, farmer, died at Marangulla, on 18 May 1898, recorded as
Aged 63 years.
Born Glasgow, Scotland
47 years in NSW
She married John HOADE, at Carcoar, NSW, when aged 16 years,
Her then living children were recorded as
Elizabeth, 45 years
John 42 years
Emily 40 years
Thomas 38 years
George 36 years
Charlotte, 35 years
Frederick 34 years
Susan 32 years
Ettie 30 years
Arthur 28 years
Eva 26 years
3 males and 1 female deceased
The informant, Jane STARK, of Marangulla, was not related to Elizabeth.
Cheers, JM
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Glasgow Scotland?? Well that's a new twist LOL
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Oh my - something's completely wrong somewhere!
The only thing now is to buy a transcription of a child's birth, or to find the original marriage register.
:-\ ::) :o Judith
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Well, I read it as Glasgow, Scotland. :) I can be wrong, so please wait for others to check my quick transcription.
To test the knowledge of the informant, perhaps you can check for the birth registrations of the named children of the marriage, and then determine how accurate was Jane's knowledge. :)
I agree with Judith, and hopefully which ever birth transcription you order, it will be Bridget as informant as she should have the best info about herself.
Fingers crossed,
Cheers, JM
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I agree, JM - that's how I read it as well. Judith
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Hi there,
It must be very difficult for you to research this family, especially when there's some others who are also researching and uploading info to their own online trees. It saddens me to read some of the twaddle on some of these. For example at a submitted tree re John HOAD and Elizabeth Bridget HOAD nee Muldoon
In the 1800 John & Elizabeth had the rising sun property which was the coach stop for Cob & Co Elizabeth ran it almost single handed while John was away carting goods from Sydney it was on his return when his horse & cart overturned at the Blue Mountains and his was killed his is buried in an unmarked grave on the side of the road. There are bullet holes in the coach house that can be found to this day from the bush ranger Ben Hall
1. 1800 is simply NOT possible. It is about six decades too early for Cobb & Co in Central Western NSW (1850s in Vic).
http://www.australia.gov.au/about-australia/australian-story/cobb-and-co
2. 1800 And more significantly, Carcoar is WEST of the Blue Mountains. The NSW Governor had not yet authorised Blaxland, Lawson and Wentworth to attempt to find a way across these. (1813 :) ) and so, the district around Carcoar had not yet been explored and settled by 'white man'
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1813_crossing_of_the_Blue_Mountains
3. 1800 Elizabeth was not yet born :) as according to this same submitted tree she was born in 1835. (this same tree has her death as 28 Oct 1898 :( )
4. I was born and raised 'on the Lachlan' and studied my "local history" from my earliest days. It has been a lifetime passion, so it saddens me that someone has mangled some history with some impossibles. It makes it so difficult to get those brickwalls to develop any cracks. So, may I please note that James FLOOD was the publican for the Rising Sun (between Carcoar and Cowra) during the early to mid 1860s, and John and Elizabeth HOAD were not there during Ben Hall's activities outside the law. (Ben Hall's bushranging years were 1863-1865)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Hall_%28bushranger%29
5. John Hoad held the licence 1869-1870, http://homepages.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~surreal/NSWW/Hotels/publicans-licences-N-R.html
6. While it was definitely possible to drive a cart from Carcoar to Sydney and back via the Blue Mountains, it was also possible to drive the cart to Bathurst to obtain stores. This was a much shorter distance.
7. While it is entirely possible that a cart and horse could overturn on those 'roads' and so the driver sustain serious injury, it is also significant that NSW had laws regarding sudden deaths, and these needed to be reported to the police, and an inquest or at least an enquiry made as to the cause/s. Yes, often a burial was 'on the side of the road'. But the death, perhaps of an unknown male, should be recorded either in NSW Parliament's Votes and Proceedings or NSW BDM or Coroner's Indexes (NSW SRO).
8. Trove may have further info re Ben Hall and Rising Sun, and/or Sudden Death of John due to cart overturning during trip across the Blue Mountains (during 1878 according to that submitted tree)
So pleased that our OP has sought out RChatters to help, particularly when there's this mis-mashed twaddle that could be making hurdles for our OP to contact other researchers.
Cheers, JM
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I agree Judith with everything you said, I want to be as accurate as I possible can be given that she is our matriarch. I don't have Elizabeth Hoad's birth certificate but I will order it tonight. I do have her death certificate but that is also confusing because her mother is again listed as a McKenzie. :o
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NSW ER 1870 CARCOAR
HOAD
John, of Five mile Creek, freehold, Carcoar
McKENZIE
John, senior, of Junction, freehold at Tuena Creek
John, junior, of Junction, residence at Tuena Creek
William, of Meglow Creek, freehold, Meglow Creek
Kenneth, of Middle Creek, freehold, Near Croaker’s Creek
Duncan, Junction, residence, Junction Tuena Creek
NSW ER 1878 CARCOAR
HOAD
John, of Five mile Creek, freehold, Carcoar
McKENZIE
Thomas William of Coombing Creek, residence at Coombing Creek
Duncan, of Peelwood, freehold, Middle Creek
John, senior, of Junction, freehold at Tuena Creek
John, junior, of Flowerburn , freehold atAbercrombie
Kenneth, of Junction Point, freehold at Middle Creek
William, of Meglow Creek, freehold, Meglow Creek
NSW ER 1903 MACQUARIE
Polling at Carcoar
HOAD, Margaret, of Carcoar, domestic duties (NO others with that surname listed for that polling place)
Polling at Lyndhurst
AIKEN
Elizabeth, of Lyndhurst, domestic duries
Frederick John, of Hoadville, farmer
John of Hoadville, boundary rider
Joseph, of Hoadville, farmer
HOAD
Arthur, of Rising Sun, a farmer
Elizabeth, of Lyndhurst, domestic duties
George, of Rising Sun, a farmer
Margaret Jane, of Lyndhurst, domestic duties
:) Noticed “Hoadville” and so I had a quick look through for others at that same address, and found NONE.
:) Notised “Rising Sun” and so I had a quick look, and spotted Frederick MOORE of Rising Sun, a labourer
:) NSW BDM has a marriage 1885 for a George HOAD and a Margaret J MOORE registered Carcoar district. (#4439)
Cheers, JM
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Just in case these are pointing to a possible origin of the "McKenzie" family connecting with Elizabeth Bridget Muldoon's early life in NSW.
John McKENZIE of Hobbys Yards DD 23 Feb 1889, Probate 12 Nov 1889
(others with that surname at Hobbys Yards on the Deceased Estates Indexes NSW SRO)
John McKENZIE, Bathurst Road, Kings Plains, District of Carcoar, 15 April 1856, Traveller’s Rest
John McKENZIE, Kings Plains, District of Carcoar, 15 April 1856, The Traveller’s Inn
John McKENZIE, The Travellers Rest, Kings Plains, District of Carcoar, 18 April 1854
John McKENZIE, The Traveller’s Rest, Kings Plains, District of Carcoar, 19 April 1853
(Publicans Licences Indexes NSW SRO)
http://www.records.nsw.gov.au/state-archives/indexes-online/indexes-online
Cheers, JM
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I havent been able to find any record of Elizabeth Hoads birth, the only one listed is:
6807/1863 HOAD ELIZABETH WILLIAM BRIDGET CARCOAR
I had ordered that certificate last year thinking it might be our Elizabeth but it was for a 10 week old baby.
Ive tried different spelling Hoade , Hood, Heade = Nothing.
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Compulsory civil registration began in 1856 prior to that registers were maintained by the churches.
Perhaps you might like to read the history of the NSW BDM : http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/bdm_hst.html
Baptism:
Elizabeth HOADS
Born: 25 Dec 1852
Bap: 06 Mar 1853
Father: John
Mother: Bridget
Ref Number: V1852813 39A
Parish: Church of England, CARCOAR
https://familyhistory.bdm.nsw.gov.au/
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Fantastic, thank you :)
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Have ordered her birth certificate today.
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Have ordered her birth certificate today.
Hi there,
Merlin has mentioned that civil registration did not commence until 1856 and provided you with a link supporting that. That link mentions the Early Church Records, so the index reference that Merlin has provided is for the baptism of Elizabeth HOADS. I would not anticipate that the document you are ordering will have much more information about that Elizabeth’s MUM (which you are hoping is Bridget Muldoon) from the combined information that Merlin has supplied and the index itself, as it predates the commencement of civil birth registrations.
Here is the family search organisation’s transcription links.
John and Bridget HOADS listed as parents for Elizabeth.
Birth 25 December 1852 (notice, as per usual practices for that era, this does NOT give a place of birth, only a date of birth).
Baptised at Carcoar on 6 March 1853.
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XTCG-ZT5
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XTXH-5VV
You will notice one has LESS information than the other. So, one is likely a transcription of the original parish register and the other is likely the transcription of the secondary parish register. So, likely BOTH those parish registers are still extant. If that is the case, then likely there’s also a possible register including details of the local families. I mention this because it seems that the family were Church of England (based on the info in the obituary for Mrs Hoad senior). The Church of England in 19th century New South Wales kept a register of their local families for each parish. You can see the images of all those parish registers held by Christ Church, from Hexham NSW online, free to search. The live links are included in the NSW Resources section here at Rootschat.
Here’s the link to that fantastic RChat Resources board: http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=369703.0
Here’s the link from the NSW RChat Resources Board reply re the Christ Church Cathedral’s family register sheets:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/uon/sets/72157606066769147/
That is the type of register I would expect the Carcoar Parish would have forwarded to their Diocese archives when it was 'full' . The C of E at Carcoar is part of the Bathurst diocese.
Cheers, JM
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.... For example at a submitted tree re John HOAD and Elizabeth Bridget HOAD nee Muldoon
In the 1800 John & Elizabeth had the rising sun property which was the coach stop for Cob & Co Elizabeth ran it almost single handed while John was away carting goods from Sydney it was on his return when his horse & cart overturned at the Blue Mountains and his was killed his is buried in an unmarked grave on the side of the road. There are bullet holes in the coach house that can be found to this day from the bush ranger Ben Hall
Hi there,
Here's some further bits and pieces of information that helps sort out some of the urban myth factoids from that submitted tree. Hope these bits and pieces will help advance the quest re the HOAD family, particularly John's wife Bridget :) and help the historic research re Carcoar district along too.
http://www.carcoar.org/history_1.html
“It was during the 1860’s that bushrangers took an interest in Carcoar and surrounds. In 1863 Johnny Gilbert and John O’Meally, members of the Gardiner/Hall bushranging gang, attempted Australia’s first daylight bank robbery at the old Commercial Bank in Belubula Street. (this building still stands today as a private residence).”
And
http://www.smh.com.au/news/New-South-Wales/Carcoar/2005/02/17/1108500193253.html
“In 1863, Johnny Gilbert and John O'Meally conducted Australia's first daylight bank robbery when they held up the Commercial Bank (still standing) but they fled empty-handed when a teller fired a shot into the bank ceiling to alert the town.”
…….
Along Belubula Street
“Old Commercial Bank
Next is a private residence called 'Daylesford'. It was originally built as a home. In the 1860s it was rented to the Commercial Bank. In 1863, the famous bushranger Johnny Gilbert, accompanied by John O'Meally, held up the bank. This robbery has the dubious distinction of being Australia's first daylight bank robbery. Unfortunately for Gilbert and O'Meally a brave teller grabbed a gun and fired a shot into the bank ceiling. The shot was heard around the town and the robbers fled empty-handed. Over the road is the former City Bank (1886), a three-storey red-brick building”
Old Commercial Bank’s street address is 11 Belubula St, Carcoar, (Dayleford House) as per Blayney Shire Council DCP No. 4 for Carcoar.
http://www.blayney.nsw.gov.au/development/control-plans/development-control-plans--dcp-s-
NSW Land & Property will have records of the land title deed holders past and present.
http://www.lpi.nsw.gov.au/mapping_and_imagery/parish_maps
Cheers, JM
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Back to the birth certificates - perhaps you might consider ordering one of the children's birth certs done after civil registration which JM reminds us began in 1856.
I think Emily has a registration number which shows a civil registration, however there's plenty to choose from!
Judith
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Hi there,
Re the death of John HOAD in 1878 and Bridget's birth surname (as McKenzie on her 1898 dc)
:) May I ask what information is on John HOAD’s 1878 dc? His wife was definitely still alive, and well, and raising his children in the extensive Carcoar district.
I am assuming that’s him as per the NSW BDM’s online index with ref #5167. (So I am still working through some of the submitted tree info ..... ummm.... I am becoming a bit of a doubting JM.... Sorry. BUT) :) The actual record should give you confirmation of the cemetery, the cause of death, the Rev’d conducting the burial service, and of course the name of the informant and their relationship to the deceased, and the details of the marriage, and the children of the marriage. So, it could well give you confirmation of the maiden name of the lass who married John HOAD. If Bridget was the informant, then you would have first hand information about HER maiden name. I am thinking that some of the children listed on the 1898 dc are perhaps HOAD, but perhaps are first cousins to John and Bridget HOAD's children. NSW BDM index seems to have William HOAD as father to several with same names as on that 1898 dc. :-\
Cheers, JM
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Elizabeth Hoads baptism certificate arrived today, not sure how much help ist going to be though, very minimal information.
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Elizabeth Hoads baptism certificate arrived today, not sure how much help ist going to be though, very minimal information.
Yes, I think we had already suggested that the baptism certificate would not have a great deal of family history info. Perhaps you can have a re-read of my post where I offer a suggestion that could help advance the quest :
Have ordered her birth certificate today.
Merlin has mentioned that civil registration did not commence until 1856 and provided you with a link supporting that. That link mentions the Early Church Records, so the index reference that Merlin has provided is for the baptism of Elizabeth HOADS. I would not anticipate that the document you are ordering will have much more information about that Elizabeth’s MUM (which you are hoping is Bridget Muldoon) from the combined information that Merlin has supplied and the index itself, as it predates the commencement of civil birth registrations.
Here is the family search organisation’s transcription links.
John and Bridget HOADS listed as parents for Elizabeth.
Birth 25 December 1852 (notice, as per usual practices for that era, this does NOT give a place of birth, only a date of birth).
Baptised at Carcoar on 6 March 1853.
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XTCG-ZT5
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XTXH-5VV
You will notice one has LESS information than the other. So, one is likely a transcription of the original parish register and the other is likely the transcription of the secondary parish register. So, likely BOTH those parish registers are still extant. If that is the case, then likely there’s also a possible register including details of the local families. I mention this because it seems that the family were Church of England (based on the info in the obituary for Mrs Hoad senior). The Church of England in 19th century New South Wales kept a register of their local families for each parish. You can see the images of all those parish registers held by Christ Church, from Hexham NSW online, free to search. The live links are included in the NSW Resources section here at Rootschat.
Here’s the link to that fantastic RChat Resources board: http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=369703.0
Here’s the link from the NSW RChat Resources Board reply re the Christ Church Cathedral’s family register sheets:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/uon/sets/72157606066769147/
That is the type of register I would expect the Carcoar Parish would have forwarded to their Diocese archives when it was 'full' . The C of E at Carcoar is part of the Bathurst diocese.
http://www.bathurstanglican.org.au/ Please do remember that the Church registers are NOT public records, and so you need to ask for a volunteer to find the time to go to their achives and to search and find the relevant entries, perhaps in several registers, and you need to patiently wait for their response. If you were to send your request by snail mail, enclosing a photocopy of the transcript you have posted here today, and to ask if there's any charges, (of course offering to pay these), you may find this can be helpful in requesting access.
Cheers, JM
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Thanks Judith I will get started on finding someone to access the records for me, failing that I might need to make a trip to Bathurst myself :)
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It was JM who gave you the info! I am hoping to get to the NLA this week but I won't promise! Judith
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Thanks Judith I will get started on finding someone to access the records for me, failing that I might need to make a trip to Bathurst myself :)
May I please suggest you carefully read the final paragraph of my earlier post
http://www.bathurstanglican.org.au/ Please do remember that the Church registers are NOT public records, and so you need to ask for a volunteer to find the time to go to their achives and to search and find the relevant entries, perhaps in several registers, and you need to patiently wait for their response. If you were to send your request by snail mail, enclosing a photocopy of the transcript you have posted here today, and to ask if there's any charges, (of course offering to pay these), you may find this can be helpful in requesting access.
Cheers, JM
I am referring to a church volunteer, a member of the local (Bathurst) community of Anglicans who volunteers at the Anglican Diocese of Bathurst's head office, and the volunteers handle some of the lay administrative tasks.
It is possible that the parish registers for Carcoar C of E have been filmed, and perhaps are available at the National Library in Canberra, or perhaps at the Society of Genealogists in Sydney. But if the registers are only available at the Diocese offices, then please do remember that the parish registers are not public property, but are Church property, and not usually available for public inspection. You can ask for access, and it is usually sensible to ask in writing, and to patiently wait for a written reply. They are not required to provide access to the general public, but on many occasions the volunteers will look up their parish registers and provide you with the information, (snail mail still works best).
Cheers, JM
(Although I am not Judith, ;D I am sure Judith will strive to get to the NLA to check further too )
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Hi there,
I wonder if you have ordered an official transcription of the dc for the following John HOAD.
Re the death of John HOAD in 1878 and Bridget's birth surname (as McKenzie on her 1898 dc)
:) May I ask what information is on John HOAD’s 1878 dc? His wife was definitely still alive, and well, and raising his children in the extensive Carcoar district.
I am assuming that’s him as per the NSW BDM’s online index with ref #5167. (So I am still working through some of the submitted tree info ..... ummm.... I am becoming a bit of a doubting JM.... Sorry. BUT) :) The actual record should give you confirmation of the cemetery, the cause of death, the Rev’d conducting the burial service, and of course the name of the informant and their relationship to the deceased, and the details of the marriage, and the children of the marriage. So, it could well give you confirmation of the maiden name of the lass who married John HOAD. If Bridget was the informant, then you would have first hand information about HER maiden name. I am thinking that some of the children listed on the 1898 dc are perhaps HOAD, but perhaps are first cousins to John and Bridget HOAD's children. NSW BDM index seems to have William HOAD as father to several with same names as on that 1898 dc. :-\
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Bummer - I can't see these records on the NLA catalogue. :( >:( Judith
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Bummer - I can't see these records on the NLA catalogue. :( >:( Judith
They are in the catalogue but it appears the the NLA don't have a copy of the microfilm which is strange being that they are part of the JCP :-\
http://trove.nla.gov.au/work/174036953?q&versionId=189658628
Looks like SAG only have them :(
http://catalogue.sag.org.au/fullRecord.jsp?recnoListAttr=recnoList&recno=51948
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Good find, Merlin. I think that's what I meant - not available! JCP is a bit difficult to access I find, although there are drawers and drawers of it at the NLA. I once asked them if they could run one of their education sessions on using the material and the person I asked said that even some of the staff find it difficult to use! Seems very peculiar to me.
I hope to get over there soon but I have a busy week so perhaps not till the following week.
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:)Thanks JM for all your info and hard work much appreciated.
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Hello I am very interested in all the info but am away from computer at the moment. I am interested in Daniel .Muldoon. clare
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Elizabeth Bridget MULDOON (aka Bridget MULDOON aka Bridget MULDOWN aka Bridget MOLDOON)
Bridget arrived in Sydney on 29th April 1850 aboard the John Knox; she was one of 4412 Irish orphans who arrived in Australia between 1848 - 1850 under the "Earl Grey Irish Orphans Famine Scheme".
Bridget was born in Drumkillah, County Cavan in 1835, her parents were Patrick MULDOON and Elizabeth (Betty) UNKNOWN.
https://registers.nli.ie/parishes/0847 Laragh Parish