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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Northumberland => Topic started by: rumneyt on Tuesday 17 April 12 17:59 BST (UK)
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Hello All,
I'm trying to locate the marriage of my G G Grandfather John Thompson, born 1791 in Elsdon.
I have the marriage cert. of his son William, married 1861 which states he was deceased at the time of the marriage, and occupation as Tailor.
I have located him on the 1851 census, and condition is widowed.
The 1841 census lists his children, but neither him or his wife. The youngest child
is 2, so probably think Mrs Thompson died between 1841 & 1851.
Any help to find his wife will be greatly appreciated.
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John Thompson is quite a common name and therefore the information you have given is not sufficient to find his wife.
What you could do is
1. You say the youngest child is 2 in 1841. if you are sure this is a child of your John Thompson you could get that childs birth certificate, or any other child born post 1 July 1837, and it should give the mothers name and maiden name. It would then be easier to look for the marriage.
2. If you don't want to go down that road you could look for the baptisms of all the child on the familysearch website and if they are there this will at the least give the mothers first name (may in rare caseses also give her maiden name)
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Thanks for the suggestions. I did think of getting the child's birth cert. when I sent for the above marriage cert, but not having the mothers name, and the child's name is Margaret Thompson, wondered if I would get the correct one.
Going to try both options........ fingers crossed.
Thanks again
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Was your Margaret born in Elsdon ?
Margaret Thompson
baptism/christening date: 17 Jan 1839
baptism/christening place: ELSDON,NORTHUMBERLAND,ENGLAND
father's name: John Thompson
mother's name: Margaret
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If they were living in Elsdon then this is a possible death for the mother (Rothbury covers Elsdon).
Deaths Jun 1842
Thompson Margaret Rothbury 25 260
Although there does not appear to be a birth registration for the daughter
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Yes, all the children appear to have been born in Elsdon, and the baptism dates tie in for Margaret. Is that unusual for the child not to be registered?
Many thanks again, will now look for the marriage.
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As that was in the early days of registration there would be quite a few that were not registered.
I see there appear to be several John Thompson \ Margaret couples so it could be tricky.
Might be worth asking if anyone has access to the Elsdon parish registers and can do a lookup for the marriage there for you. The marriages for Elsdon on familysearch only appear to go up to 1812 which is too early
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Thanks again for the suggestions. Quite new to this site, so who/where do I ask if anyone has access to the Elsdon records.
Thanks
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You just wait for someone like me to read the thread and volunteer ;D
I'm off to the archives tomorrow and, as it happens, will be looking at Elsdon anyway.
I'll see if I can find out anything and report back
Christine
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Thank you very much
Jenny
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Hi Jenny
I don’t know where to start with this one!
I thought I’d look first at George Bell’s marriage index which is an alphabetical list of marriages in Northumberland from 1813 - 1837. There was one marriage of John Thompson to Margaret Thompson in 1815 so I went to check the microfilm of the parish record.
Would you believe that there are no marriages at the archives for Elsdon 1813 - 1837?
So then I looked at the transcripts for Elsdon done many years ago by a Mr. Wallace (and the source of George Bell’s index in relation to Elsdon) and this is what he had to say in 1979
‘The Register of Marriages 1813 - 1837 appears to be lost and the BTs surviving at Durham end at 1830 and there are gaps during this period’
The only other source of information for marriages are banns and licences - Elsdon banns recommence in 1826 but no Thompsons appear in them. Licences are available online through familysearch - searchable by image but I don’t see a Thompson there either. At least not in 1815.
The thing is, George Bell’s work is usually reliable but no-one can figure out where he got this 1815 date from and, sadly, George died a few years ago so we can’t ask him.
It’s possible, of course, that your John and Margaret didn’t marry in Elsdon at all but if they did the only way forward, I think, is to contact Durham and ask if they have it in the Bishop’s Transcripts.
Christine
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Now to give you the data I did find - though I’m not sure if it’s going to be helpful.
There is a burial of Margaret Thompson on 12th September 1839, age 46, abode Folly
The baptism of Margaret Thompson on 17th January 1839 gives parents as John and Margaret, John’s occupation Tailor and abode Folly
I found one other baptism for Catherine, listed as first daughter of John and Margaret Thompson, John’s occupation Taylor, abode Heatherweed. Date of baptism 2nd November 1828, date of birth given as 4th June 1826. I haven’t found any reference to Heatherweed but there is a Heatherwick so perhaps I misread or the vicar mis-wrote.
Do you have any names and dates for other children because I couldn’t spot them in the register? I can have another look next week if you have more detail
Christine
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Hi Christine,
Many thanks for the information, I like a mystery but this is taking some unravelling!!
The dates you ask for of the other children are: 1851 Census: Catherine (d) age 24, George (s) age 14, Margaret (d) age 12, Jane (granddaughter) age 3, James Thompson (father) age 90 born in Scotland and John Thompson as their Father, occupation Tailor and condition Widowed. I wonder if Jane is Catherine's daughter?
The 1841 census I have (if the correct one) states: John age 20 (1821), Robert & Catherine both age 15 (1826), William age 13 (1829), Isabella age 9 (1832), James age 8 (1833) George age 5 (1836) Margaret age 2 (1839). There are neither parents listed.
Today I found on Ancestry someone else researching John Thompson and a lot of their information confirms what you have found, with a couple of differences.
John Thompson born 1791, but in Scotland not Elsdon, his father James Thompson born Scotland 1761-1852, which makes him 90 in 1851.
Margaret Thompson born 1798 in Landshot, Elsdon, died the Folly 12.09.1844 , which is the same day and month as your findings but 5 years later.
Marriage between John and Margaret 26.08.1815.
All the same children listed as the 1841 census above, with Catherine & Robert both born 04.06.1826 at Heatherwick.
Margaret born 17.01.1839 The Folly.
Hope you can understand this!! Would you let me know how to contact Durham and ask it they have it in the Bishop's Trancripts.
Once again thanks very much for your time.
Jenny
PS Do you think John may have been married twice?
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All clear, thanks :)
I'm going to print that bit off and take it with me next week - see what I can confirm (or otherwise).
The death date for Margaret on Ancestry is odd - I will check that out again - see whether there is another one 5 years later but it's a bit of a coincidence. There was some problem with her age on the burial record I gave you - the no. 4 in 46 had been written heavily over something else but I couldn't make out what. But if she was 46 then her birth year goes back to 1783. and she would have married age 32 in 1815 - perhaps she'd been married twice?
I wonder where the person on ancestry got the marriage date from - it's the same as the one I have and perhaps came from the same source - so irritating that it can't be properly verified.
Christine
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Sorry! Forgot about the Durham contact details
This is a weblink for Durham University Library - Special Collections
http://www.dur.ac.uk/library/asc/
Christine
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Thanks again Christine, will try and locate the person on Ancestry to find out their source of the date of Margaret's death.
Jenny
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I've found that source information on public trees is usually scant but let me know if you find out.
I'll check it out anyway as I'm beginning to doubt my own research :-\
Christine
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I've send the person a message but note it's quite a while since they logged into Ancestry, so not that hopeful, but have since noticed a couple of other dates which don't quite add up on their info, so I shouldn't doubt your research.
Jenny
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Hi Jenny
I hope you really do like a mystery ‘cos this one is getting worse.
Of all the Thompson children you listed the only two to show up in Elsdon baptisms were Catharine and Margaret who I found last week. Because of the rounding down of adult ages in the 1841 census and the fact that Catharine was baptised two years after her birth I went through every single page from 1813 to 1850. There were a couple of other Thompsons mentioned but wrong names and wrong parents.
Although the ’41 doesn’t give relationships I think it is reasonable to assume that, apart from Jane, they are all siblings so why aren’t they all there? The only solution I have come up with so far is that all the others were privately baptised and either not brought to church to be officially received or that the vicar did not always include the names of children so received in the baptism register.
Certainly there are oddities in the register. For example at the end of the 1840 baptisms there are entries for 1835 which are immediately followed by 1841 entries. No explanation is given.
Has anyone got any other ideas?
Christine
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Keeping this separate so as not to cause any further confusion!
Margaret’s burial was definitely 1839 - details as provided last week.
I also came across a burial for James Thompson, abode Tofts, 25th February 1844, aged 98
Looking for a baptism of John in or around 1791 nothing was found but I did see one in 1792 for Margaret, daughter of James and Eleanor Thompson of Killhouse and I was wondering whether she could be his sister.
On the off-chance that she was then there is a burial for Eleanor Thompson, abode Otterburn, 26th November 1840, aged 82. She may not be connected but worth keeping a note of just in case.
Christine
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Three baptisms on Familysearch at Birdhope Craig Presbyterian (in Elsdon Parish) which correspond to three of the older children.
John, 29 Jul 1821
Robert, 7 Feb 1825
William, born 5 Aug, bap 26 Oct 1828
All children of John and Margaret Thompson. Original records may give more info.
Alan.
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Interesting. I have heard of mixed denomination marriages where the boys have been baptised into one denomination and the girls into the other so now I’m wondering whether that is what’s happening here. Certainly the Scottish connection could account for the Presbyterian element.
If only we could find the rest of the children……
Woodhorn has Birdhopecraig baptisms up to 1850 and there’s Otterburn from 1835 so I can look at those next week to see if there is any further detail.
Christine
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Hello Christine
Been away for a couple of days, so just picked up the posts from yourself and Alan. Many thanks, as you say it's becoming a bigger mystery daily!
I have found a 4th cousin living in Norfolk researching the same branch of the Thompsons, who's come across the same problems, she has sent me the same info as Alan today, the baptisms for the Presbyterian Chapel at Birdhope Craig. She says in her message that there are a lot of non-conformists in her Norfolk families who flitted between the Parish Church and local non-conformist chapel, and wondered if this is what our John and Margaret did? Whatever they did it's complicated!
I've made a note of the John/Eleanor connection which seems possibly his sister as you suggest.
Not sure about the buriel for James Thomson age 98 in 1844 as we have a James on the 1851 census age 90?
Thanks for the offer to look up the Birdhopecraig/Otterburn baptisms.
Jenny
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I'm not sure where that burial of James fits in either - I mentioned it because it was there. If nothing else it serves to show that there are other Thompsons in the area and nothing should be taken at face value. With common names like James, John and Margaret it would be easy to go off on the wrong road.
I'm still not totally satisfied with the 1815 marriage - why no children until 1821? With the Presbyterian connection have you checked for marriages in Scotland?
Christine - with apologies for throwing more spanners in the works ;)
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There are also baptisms at Birdhope Craig of a James Thompson, 5 Nov 1816, and Thomas Thompson, 12 Feb 1818. Sons of John and Margaret Thompson.
Alan.
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Thanks Christine/Alan, don't worry about the spanners, I'm just so grateful you are using your spades for digging out the relevant info.!!
Looking at Scotland marriages today, nothing so far.
Once again many thanks for all your help.
Jenny
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Actually, now that Alan has provided two earlier baptisms I am much more confident about the 1815 marriage.
I'm also wondering whether they have been following the traditional naming pattern. If so it would make John's parents James and Isabella and Margaret's Thomas and Catherine. Perhaps I should try to find Margaret's baptism - at least look in Elsdon PRs.
Noted - the first James must have died as there is another baptised later on - something else to look for!
Christine
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I looked at Birdhopecraig records today. There’s not a lot to add to Alan’s findings other than places of residence.
James (1816) was born Elsdon: Thomas, John and Robert were born at Monkridge Hall and William was born Heatherwick.
Williams baptism entry was quite interesting. Firstly it’s the only one which describes his father as being a Tailor. Also the minister had taken to making notes against the names - William’s said 5s 6c which I finally figured was a short form of 5th son of 6 children. This fits exactly with what we now have.
Unfortunately there was no mention of any of the other children and I didn’t have time to look at Otterburn. I’ll do that next time.
I did find a potential baptism for Margaret in Elsdon PRs. Using her age of 46 in 1839 there is a baptism in 1793 -
7th (possibly 27th) April 1793 - Margaret daughter of James and Eleanor Thompson of Kirkhouse.
If she is the right one it blows my naming pattern theory out of the water ;D
Christine
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Thanks Christine for the info., and well figured out with notes against William's baptism, I would probably have taken it as 5/6d. !!
I've found yet another tree on Ancestry, with the same John Thompson and family, it has all the same birth dates etc., but has an Elizabeth as John' wife, but also has the children split and some listed under "unknown spouse"?? so presume he thinks John married twice, he has been on line today, so may get an answer from this one.
I really appreciate the time you have given to this, once again many thanks.
Jenny
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I would probably have taken it as 5/6d. !!
My first thought was money, too ;D
I don't see how there can be two mothers on this one - Margaret is named as mother to the oldest children and also to Margaret in 1839. There are a lot of Thompsons around though and as I said before, it would be very easy to go astray.
Hope you get a response from the 'Ancestry man'.
Christine
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Hi Christine, red herring I'm afraid! received message re ancestry, the chap had put the last few children born as "siblings of another spouse" because like us he couldn't locate Margaret, and found another Thompson lady of the same age, residence etc. We now have another researcher grateful for your 'digging'.
As you say so easy to go astray.
Jenny
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Excellent that you got a response - it so often doesn't happen
As for going astray - Looking for a baptism of John in or around 1791 nothing was found but I did see one in 1792 for Margaret, daughter of James and Eleanor Thompson of Killhouse and I was wondering whether she could be his sister.
I did find a potential baptism for Margaret in Elsdon PRs. Using her age of 46 in 1839 there is a baptism in 1793 -
7th (possibly 27th) April 1793 - Margaret daughter of James and Eleanor Thompson of Kirkhouse.
I'm thinking that this is the same information! Wife or sister ???
Christine
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I checked Otterburn Presbyterian records (starting in 1835) but no Thompsons there. I don’t know where to look next.
One thing that surprised us all (including the archivist!) was that I found a handwritten transcript of Elsdon marriages 1813 - 1830 taken from the Bishop’s Transcripts. There was the John and Margaret 1815 marriage which shows John came from Otterburn and Margaret from a little place called Landshot (t) which is about 1 mile away from Elsdon village.
Finally I double checked the Margaret baptism - it was definitely in 1793 though everything was so grubby it was difficult to see when the year changed which is why I originally thought 1792. These old parish records can be a bit of a challenge.
Christine
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Thanks for all your help on this Christine.
I've found another Ancestry tree, listing Margaret as born in Landshot, Elsdon in 1798, (wonder if the '8' has been misread and should be 1793?) and died 12.09.1844 The Folly, Elsdon., it also has a Thomas Elliott as her father. I haven't looked to see if I can see any connection to the Elliott name, with Margaret, but would you think it's worth a try?
No idea where to go next on this one. I have located quite a lot of dates/locations etc., for John's son William (my GG Grandfather), so just hoping the other siblings are not as difficult as their parents!!
Once again thanks for your help and patience.
Jenny
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I think I should look at Elsdon records for 1798. As we now know that Margaret was living in Landshot when she married then it's worth a try - remembering that I only stumbled across the 1793 one when I was looking for John in 1791. I didn't actually go in search of Margaret. There could well be others given the number of Thompsons in the area!
Christine
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I'm having such a hectic week I forgot to report back!
Just to confirm that Elsdon records do not have a baptism for Margaret in 1798 so I think you could be right that 1793 has been mistranscribed or misread. What puzzles me is that there is no mention of Landshot in the 1793 baptism - just in her marriage record. I have to assume that the person responsible for the tree has just put the two records together.
Christine
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Thanks for the update, was away all last week so just picked your message up this morning. You are correct in your assumption the chap with Margaret in his tree assumed that Landshot was her birthpalce, like us he couldn't confirm it.... Grrr!!
Once again many, many thanks for your help with this mystery.
Jenny
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Hello Christine
Just to cornfirm I have the details of a GRO death cert for Margaret Thompson 10th September 1839 at Folly age 36 wife of John Thompson, Tailor. Informant John Thompson present at death. So, if this is the correct death cert it means she was born in 1803, casting doubt on the 1815 marriage, I'm beginning to think someone has made a transcription error somewhere, as the dates for all the children seem to fit in well with the 1815 marriage. What do you think?
Jenny
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Hi Jenny,
The death cert agrees with the burial record except that there is a 10 year difference in the age given - 36 on the cert. and 46 on the burial record.
I'm not sure how you could prove which was correct but, as you say, children's baptisms etc. fit with the 1815 marriage and I doubt she'd have married at 12 (though I think it was still legal then :o )
I think, when searching for a baptism, you should allow for both dates and see what comes up.
Christine
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I would just like to say a huge Thank You to Christine for all the research on the Thompson branch of my family she has done for me. It is much appreciated.
Jenny