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Research in Other Countries => New Zealand => New Zealand Completed Requests => Topic started by: fred21 on Sunday 15 April 12 00:03 BST (UK)
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Hi,
I am trying to trace my partner's family and would appreciate any help/information/suggestions.
His grandfather was
Robert Alexander KIRKER born 5 Feb 1894 in Mandinvale, New Zealand. (Mandinvale is in Southland). His parents were William KIRKER and Isobel WATT.
William and Isobel were married in 1884 in Invercargill and had the following children:
Agnes born 1855 died 1907
William James born 1886 married Alice Maslin and had 2 children.
Jessie Isabella born 1888 married Archibald McKechi.
John Thomas born 1889 married Jane Shields
Mary Milne born 1891 married James Marshall
Robert Alexander born 1894 married Margaret Jane Pirie
Elizabeth Margaret born 1895 married George Ramsay
Christina born 1897 married James Sutherland
Peter born 1900 married Nita Ewan
Catherine born 1903 died 1927.
I would like to trace this family and especially William Kirker who is proving to be hard to find. He gave different ages and places of birth on most documents relating to him hence the difficultly.
We suspect he was born sometime between 1835 and 1850 in either Australia, Ireland or Scotland. I have checked the Australia led but the records office there could find no mention of him for that time period and felt that he could not of been born in the place he said as there were virtually no white settlers living there at that time.
It is believed that his parents were William KIRKER and Mary BROWN (as stated on his marriage cert), though this too could be a red-herring!
There was a William KIRKER on the shipping lists arriving in NZ in 1875 but this is not our William KIRKER but another who died in 1887.
Any help on how to track this elusive man who be greatly appreciated as I have no other leds on where to try next.
Many thanks
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He gave different ages and places of birth on most documents relating to him hence the difficultly.
It might be helpful to give us those details as well ???
John B
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Hello,
There is a mention of a William Kirker drowning in 1891 at Waikato Heads
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0l6f/
Cheers Janette
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Another reference,a letter written by him to the editor
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0l6g/
Cheers Janette
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Hi,
On the 1919 E/R for Invercargill, Isobel is a widow residing at McQuarrie Street, living with daughter Elizabeth. Christina and Robert (returned soldier) are at same street, but no street number given.
Apologies if you have this information ... as mentioned it would help if you tell us what information you have, so we don't double up.
Cheers
KHP
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Hi, There are a William and Isabell (sic) Kirker living in Wyndham in Southland in 1911. By 1919 Isobel is a widow living in Invercargill. There is a burial for a William Kirker in Wyndham Cemetery, date of death 7/2/1914 age 70, therefore b. c. 1844, however, the corresponding death in the Historical BDM site is
d. 1914 age 77, therefore b. c. 1837. In the same gravesite in Wyndham Cemetery is Isobel Kirker who died on 26/8/1946 aged 86. Both William and Isobel have wills in NZ Archives, Dunedin, that someone down that way might be willing to look up for you.
Craig.
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Hi, it would be obviously helpful to buy the death printout for William, who, as he predeceased his wife, hopefully had in her an informant that knew e.g when and where he was born, and who his parents were (including his mother's maiden name), and, cross your fingers, all this will be recorded on the death printout. In 1919 in Invercargill I have Isobel with two of the children you mentioned at the same address, Robert Alexander, a returned soldier, and Elizabeth Margaret, spinster.
Craig.
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Outstanding work, Craig ;D
Spades
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Cheers Spades.
Craig.
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Thanks all so much for your quick replies.
As requested here is what I do know and have tried for William KIRKER
Age on marriage cert (they were married 18 Sept 1884 Invercargill) is 35 meaning he was born in 1849. He stated his birthplace as Boningong, Victoria, Australia.
Having done some research in Australia a few years ago I found that there was no place called Boningong but there was a place called Buninyong. Unfortunately the Historical Society there said that it was not possible for him to have been born when he said he was as there were no white settlers living there, though they were kind enough to check through all their records but found nothing for him or for any Kirker's there or in the area.
He death cert (yes the 1914 one is him) is mostly blank - no parents names but age 77 which meant that he was born 1836/1837. Place of birth is Buninyong, Australia.
I am guessing that Isobel never knew his parents and another guess would be that he immigrated to NZ on his own and had no further contact with his family - perhaps he was running away from something maybe even another wife and family? Pure speculation of course...
His headstone however states his age as 70 which means he would of been born in 1844.
Hence you can see the confusion and difficultly in trying to find him. Was he born in 1836/1837 or 1844 or 1849? And Australia doesn't seem to match at all with these time frames unless he was born somewhere else entirely (at least according to the Historical Society in Victoria) and I have looked through the Victorian BDM and he isn't on there either.
My father in law seemed to think that his grandfather was born in Ireland. This may fit as there are Kirker's there and the few other Kirker's who immigrated to NZ between 1840-1880 were all from Ireland and I have been told from a Kirker contact in Ireland that all the Kirker's there are related (it is apparently not a common name).
If there is any other information I can provide to help please let me know and I will do my best.
Thanks so much for all the help so far.
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Re the marriage in 1884.
Isobel was born 1860, so 24yrs old at marriage.
If William was born 1837, he would have been 47, considerably older than his bride.
Would this be a reason for him to declare his age as 35 in order to make the difference appear less, and be one of those rare instances where the data on death cert is more reliable than on marriage cert ???
Just speculating ::)
John B
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Could be John ...... from my tree .... Bride was 25, groom 53 (widower) and she put her age up by 7 years
Cheers
KHP
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I wouldn't worry too much about the age thing, my great great grandfather took a little bit off his age every time he and his wife had another child; by the time they had their last, he was 10 years younger than her and considering she was 22 when they married... And then there was my 85 year old ancestor who took 25 years off his age come census time. The point is, sometimes even official records aren't accurate as to people's details. I guess the thing is, this is the right couple, and you are most likely to get past your brick wall by obtaining the respective death printouts.
Craig.
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thanks once again for the replies
so if I use the death print I'm once again stuck...
because according to that he was born 1836/1837 in Buninyong, Australia which according to the Historical Society there and the Victorian Records Office is not possible as there were no white settlers living in the area at this time - it's just too early.
I would love to be able to find his immigration to NZ as this would be his earliest link and might provide some information even as place as to where the ship he came on would at least give me a start, but the only immigration I found was for 1875 which unfortunately isn't our William Kirker.
Isn't it difficult when some of our ancestors give out misleading information.... I had another one a few years ago but finally traced him down after going through every document I could possibly find on him - turned out he was using his middle name instead of his first name (wanting to appear more English than Irish it seems) and had taken 10 years off his age.
This one is proving just as elusive but I am hopeful that there is something out there about him that will led me back to where he came from and then hopefully to the next generation. I have tried looking for his parents (as stated on his marriage cert) but they too are proving elusive so perhaps he lied about them also...
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I came across your site and note;
1. look up James Kirker on the internet - a remarkable fellow
2. On my fathers side I have an Alexander Kirker born 1864 County Antrim NI married Margaret Robinson 18/4/1886 St Anne's Belfast --- I have an Alexander Kirker born 1894 Scotland son of the above
Elizabeth Kirker Born Belfast 1900 daughter of the above County Antrim and a Thomas Kirker b 1830 who I understand was the first named Alexander's father .
Thought you might be interested
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My two bob's worth as I live in Invercargill and Southland.
I think the correct spelling should be Mandeville which is near Gore about 40mins from Invercargill. Wyndham is about halfway (as the crow flies) between Invercargill and Gore.
Now I am able to visit all these locations and local cemeteries and photograph gravesites if required (for those cemeteries that are not online or have photographs available).
I see also that CraigT has identified Probates at Archives NZ in Dunedin. If required I can copy these as I will be in Dunedin on Thursday and Friday of this week (see post eleswhere on NZ Board).
There are also Museums and Archives at both Wyndham and Gore that might be worth inquiring of.
Any thing of use in here let me know.
Happy to assist.
Alex G ;D
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Hi Fred21,
I found this in the NZSG Kiwi index.
Name: KIRKER William
Name Aliases:
Address:
Date: before 10 May 1876
Description: Criminal suspect; stealing, horse
Occupation:
Place:
Age:
Sex:
Birthdate:
Title: Otago Police Gazette
Page: 47
Publication: 10 May 1876
Comment: Arrested by Constable Thomas GALLAGHER 699 Cromwell Police; discharged
Further enquiries to: Research Librarian, Hocken Library Otago
And the index also shows school Admission/Progress/Withdrawals (APW) records for many of the children listed in your first post, with William KIRKER listed as parent/guardian. Mandeville and Pyramid Siding schools.
Spades
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For what it is worth another small contribution
The NZ Police Gazettes are held at Archives NZ in Dunedin. I would be able to explore further on my next visit if required.
Have used this resource previously with good results.
Alex G
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I wonder if he made later appearances in the Police Gazette and whether there might be a photograph.
Spades
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Spades
With any luck will be in Dunedin next week. Will check.
Alex G
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Greetings Fred21 and Spades
Visited the Hocken Library in Dunedin and located the Otago Police Gazette for 10th May 1876. Nothing new. Also checked several Gazettes before and after this date and no other references to William Kirker.
Then searched the Otago Nominal Index and found the attached record. Identical to the Otago Police Gazette above. No other records for Kirker in this Index.
At Archives NZ, Dunedin I searched the NZ Police Gazettes for 1877 (earliest available) and 1878. There were no references for William Kirker
Hope is of some assistance.
Alex G :)
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I am researching Kirkers in Northern Ireland and beyond in the hopes of fitting as many pieces of the jigsaw together as I can... All Kirkers are of interest.
Petmar707 posted the information below and I would be very interested in learning more about this family. The witness database has Belfast after Alexander Kirker's name and NZ after Margaret Robinsons. Does anyone know more about this family?
Many thanks
Original Message from Petmar707:
I came across your site and note;
1. look up James Kirker on the internet - a remarkable fellow
2. On my fathers side I have an Alexander Kirker born 1864 County Antrim NI married Margaret Robinson 18/4/1886 St Anne's Belfast --- I have an Alexander Kirker born 1894 Scotland son of the above
Elizabeth Kirker Born Belfast 1900 daughter of the above County Antrim and a Thomas Kirker b 1830 who I understand was the first named Alexander's father .
Thought you might be interested
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I must apologies for the delay -- not familiar with the site -- on my family tree we have;
Thomas Kirker 1830 father of Alexander
Alexander Kirker date about 1864 father of
Elizabeth 23/6/1888 b 72 Vernon St Belfast Married James Boreland
Alexander 1894 b Scotland
Thomas 1899 b Antrim
Rebecca 1900 b Antrim
Alexander Married Margaret Robinson [ 1864-24/12/1936] married 18/4/1886 St Ann's 82 Turin St Belfast
About KIRKER, Alexander
French Polisher
lived 1 4 Kathleen Trc Belfast 1886
lived 2 72 Vernon St Belfast 1888
lived 3 35 Conduit St Belfast 1901
lived 4 20 Norwood St Befast 1906
Presbyterian 1901 census
Margaret KIRKER 18Apr1886 St Anne's C of I WITNESS
Alexander KIRKER Belfast GROOM
Margaret ROBINSON NZ 10608 WIFE
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Thomas ATKINSON 18Apr1886 St Anne's C of I WITNESS
Alexander KIRKER Belfast GROOM ANT
Margaret ROBINSON NZ WIFE 10608
Details:: KIRKER, Alexander's wife's sister's son's son is MARTIN, Peter Winnington
names ;; KIRKER, Alexander wife ROBINSON, Margaret sister ROBINSON, Jane son MARTIN, George Winnington son MARTIN, Peter Winnington
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Hi
Thanks for your reply. I can't see any tie or relation to my William Kirker unfortunately. So still no joy in tracing him.
I did manage to find a mention of a William Kirker in the Phoenix Hulk Transportation Entrance Records for 1838-1846 which states that he was transported to Australia on the 10 Sept 1846 on the Henry Pocher? Sentence was for 12 years for horse stealing.
Unfortunately the Henry Porcher did only 2 trips one to Sydney in 1834-35, and one to Hobart in 1836 so the 1846 date can't be correct.
This could be my William Kirker or more likely his father.
The only other mention I could find of a William Kirker in Australia was listed in a rate book for 1858 Melbourne, Australia
And that is that. No record of a William Kirker anywhere else or in any Australian births, deaths or marriages.
Starting to think this brick wall is going to remain forever
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Hi everyone,
This is quite literally my very first post on here. I signed up for an account just because I found this thread!
I too am a William Kirker descendant (great-great-granddaughter I think?)! I have just received all of the research that my Grandparents did into the different family trees and am trying to progress things where they got stuck.
I realise that this thread was started in 2012(?), but does anybody have anymore suggestions about how I could keep trying to track down William?
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Welcome to Rootschat Sorkir.... ;D
The death notice for William shows him having been born in Australia. Which of course may or not be a fact.
His death notice [1914]…….
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/ST19140210.2.15?end_date=31-12-1915&items_per_page=10&phrase=2&query=william+kirker&snippet=true&start_date=01-01-1884
Minniehaha.
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Not helpful but may be of interest never the less:
Probated wills of William & Isobel Kirker:
https://www.archway.archives.govt.nz/ViewFullItem.do?code=22050184&digital=yes
https://www.archway.archives.govt.nz/ViewFullItem.do?code=22058590&digital=yes
Minniehaha.
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This in relation to the link @ reply #2....
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/ME18890906.2.51?items_per_page=10&page=2&phrase=2&query=wm.+kirker&snippet=true
Minniehaha.
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Just throwing these links into the mix.....
https://www.archway.archives.govt.nz/ViewFullItem.do?code=22050184&digital=yes
https://www.archway.archives.govt.nz/ViewFullItem.do?code=22058590&digital=yes
Marriage:
1884/3012 Isabel Watt William Kirker
In reply #9 there is a suggestion that the family may have had a connection to Ireland.
This couple may be worth investigating further:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/225366197?searchTerm=sarah%20kirker
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/223099432?searchTerm=alexander%20kirker
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/224729637?searchTerm=alexander%20kirker
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/28399661?searchTerm=alexander%20kirker
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/13378928?searchTerm=alexander%20kirker
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/162678258?searchTerm=alexander%20kirker
In Australia by 1842?
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/31736862?searchTerm=sarah%20kirker
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/222115326?searchTerm=sarah%20kirker
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/107935354?searchTerm=sarah%20kirker
KIRKER Alexander Funeral notice 02AUG1876 Funeral late of Enfield Sydney Morning Herald 02AUG1876
KIRKER Alexander Death notice 31JUL1876 Death 76 late of Enfield, formerly of Belfast, Ireland Sydney Morning Herald 25 AUG 1876
KIRKER Sarah Death notice 24 NOV 1869 Death late of Forest Lodge, Glebe The Empire 03 DEC 1869
KIRKERSarah Death notice 24 NOV 1869 Death late of Glebe, formerly of Liverpool St.Sydney Morning Herald 27 NOV 1869
KIRKER Sarah Funeral notice 26 NOV 1869 Funeral late of Glebe Sydney Morning Herald 26 NOV 1869
KIRKER Sarah Death notice 24 NOV 1869 Death late of Forest Lodge, Glebe Sydney Morning Herald 25 NOV 1869
[Apologies for any repetition of links.]
Minniehaha.
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William's family obviously believed he was born in Australia; son's WW1 file:
https://www.archway.archives.govt.nz/ViewFullItem.do?code=18057646&digital=yes
Minniehaha.
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Hi!
Thank you so much for all of these! The wills and army records in particular are incredibly interesting and I have never seen them before!
I am not too sure about the link with Sarah and Alexander Kirker (will try to pursue this in case - but I believe we had thought that his parents were William Kirker and Mary Brown as I think they are named on his marriage certificate?). The problem is mainly regarding his birth as he claims he was born in a place that didn't really exist at that point in time! My Grandfather travelled to Ballarat in Australia and tried to do some research and could turn up nothing on William. The local historical society helped out and couldn't find anything, but they said this wasn't surprising as there were virtually no white settlers in the area around 1836/37 which is when he claims he was born in Buninyong :(
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Hi SorKir
Nice to meet another person researching this family.
Can I ask which one of William's children are you descended from?
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Good Morning all
Please forgive me if I repeat anything that has already been said.
I research Kirkers worldwide being the grandaughter of a Kirker I became fascinated by them and was lucky enough to be able to build upon research done by mother's cousin in the 1980s. I have a public family tree on ancestry - Kirker Family Tree. It is made up of many many branches which sadly do not interconnect - although I live in hope one day.
The Kirkers are a Scots Irish family who have been in Northern Ireland since the 1680s. If you do any research in Scottish records there a very few to be found and all after that date.
To the current topic of William. It has been a few years since I tried to find his origins. In 2017 I wrote notes that can be found in the Gallery on my tree.
I found 4 in Australia/New Zealand.
1. William Kirker who married Isobel was in NZ by 1884.
2. A William Kirker in Queensland in 1889.
3. A William Kirker whose body was found at Waikato Heads in 1891 and
4. William Kirker who died in 1887 at Southland Hospital, Invercargill (my family).
William Kirker who married Isobel's obit states that he was born in Victoria, Queensland. He was 70 years old and was born c. 1844. Most of the Kirkers that I can think of at the moment in Australia all emigrated after 1844. This group originated from Belfast/Antrim. The other Kirkers arrived in Sydney, Alexander and Sarah, in 1841. They have been referred to in above messages. Alexander was married twice and had no issue. He died in 1886 and his will benefitted Ellen and Samuel Kelly (wife Sarah's convoluted family who were brought to Australia by them) and Alexander's wife. Many newspaper articles.
You can check my tree list for other Williams I have found.
Kirker convicts.
New South Wales, Australia, Convict Records, 1810-1891
Phoenix Hulk: Weekly Transportation Entrance Books 1838-1846
Volume Number 4/4538
Name of Prisoner: William Kirker
Ship: Henry Packer
Colonial Conviction
Where: Circuit Court: Berrima - New South Wales
When: 10 Sept 1846
Offence: House Stealing
Sentence: 12 years
Second Conviction
Probationary Gang - Van Diemen’s Land
There is also a John Kirker who was sentenced in York, England for 7 years transported on the Ship Moffatt2. Convicted in York, England. Freed 1 Sept 1843 Tasmania - having been pardoned on 12 July 1843. Nothing else known about him.
Sady I am stumped, but records turn up all the time… I hope some of my references will help with your research. DNA may be your best route.
Good Luck. Karen
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Hello again!
Good to meet you Fred21 - I am the great Granddaughter of Peter Sylvester, so William Kirker's great-great granddaughter?
Thank you for your reply also, Karen, I am related to the first William Kirker that you mentioned in your list, although sadly, I cannot seem to get past him. I will try to find your tree on ancestry too as I have just uploaded mine on there as well.
Thanks again for everyone's help - I live in hope that the mystery of William Kirker can still be cracked!
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I must apologies for the delay -- not familiar with the site -- on my family tree we have;
Thomas Kirker 1830 father of Alexander
Alexander Kirker date about 1864 father of
Elizabeth 23/6/1888 b 72 Vernon St Belfast Married James Boreland
Alexander 1894 b Scotland
Thomas 1899 b Antrim
Rebecca 1900 b Antrim
Alexander Married Margaret Robinson [ 1864-24/12/1936] married 18/4/1886 St Ann's 82 Turin St Belfast
About KIRKER, Alexander
French Polisher
lived 1 4 Kathleen Trc Belfast 1886
lived 2 72 Vernon St Belfast 1888
lived 3 35 Conduit St Belfast 1901
lived 4 20 Norwood St Befast 1906
Presbyterian 1901 census
Margaret KIRKER 18Apr1886 St Anne's C of I WITNESS
Alexander KIRKER Belfast GROOM
Margaret ROBINSON NZ 10608 WIFE
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Thomas ATKINSON 18Apr1886 St Anne's C of I WITNESS
Alexander KIRKER Belfast GROOM ANT
Margaret ROBINSON NZ WIFE 10608
Details:: KIRKER, Alexander's wife's sister's son's son is MARTIN, Peter Winnington
names ;; KIRKER, Alexander wife ROBINSON, Margaret sister ROBINSON, Jane son MARTIN, George Winnington son MARTIN, Peter Winnington
========= FOUND THIS TONIGHT 22/12/22 THANK YOU I ONLY WISH i COULD CONTACT YOU DIRECT