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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Staffordshire => England => Staffordshire Lookup Requests => Topic started by: Scranpot on Friday 13 April 12 12:59 BST (UK)

Title: Bate and Lucas families, Wolverhampton
Post by: Scranpot on Friday 13 April 12 12:59 BST (UK)
I'm just starting to research my Wolverhampton ancestors and have got as far back as William John Bate in the 1841 and 1851 census data, living at Lane Green, Tettenhall. He was born in St Ann, Soho, in about 1801, but I am getting nowhere there, and it seems that Bate is a very common Staffordshire name so maybe he had family there too; also, his wife Ann Lucas was born in Wolverhampton in about 1812.

All their nine children (those who survived infancy) were born in Tettenhall/Billbrook between c.1829 and 1852, and all five daughters were married in Catholic ceremonies, which makes me think their parents (or maybe just one of them) was Catholic. I'd like to find out if William and Ann got married in Wolverhampton, and research Ann Lucas's family in Wolverhampton. I'd also like advice on how I go about finding Catholic baptisms and burials. (I've had a look at the Wolverhampton Index of parish registers for burials, but it seems that a big chunk of unconsecrated - i.e. Catholics and other non-conformist - burials are missing during the relevant period.)

I'm planning to visit Wolverhampton Archive in a few weeks' time. Can anyone suggest good sources so I spend my time usefully? Also, would it be useful to visit the Birmingham Diocesan Archive if I can as well (or maybe instead)? Any help would be greatly appreciated!
Title: Re: Bate and Lucas families, Wolverhampton
Post by: ciderdrinker on Tuesday 17 April 12 12:40 BST (UK)
Dear Scranpot
There is one catholic church in Wolverhampton at this period.It called something like St Peter's and St Paul's and the printed volume is blue and on the shelves at Wolverhampton archives complete with index.
Tettenhall is usaully seperate from Wolverhampton for burials and would probably have your ancester there.The only fly being he was catholic.
There are indexs at wolverhamptonhistory.org which covers all of Wolverhampton including Tettenhall but I'm afriad doesn't have the catholic registers.
Good luck with your visit
Ciderdrinker
ps death Merridale William Bate 17.4.1866 age 64 lockmaker Great Hampton St st Peter's yours?
Title: Re: Bate and Lucas families, Wolverhampton
Post by: Scranpot on Tuesday 17 April 12 14:30 BST (UK)
Many thanks for getting back to me! I'll see what I can find in the SS Peter and Paul volume at the Wolverhampton archive.

Finding Catholic burials is a real problem. It seems the Catholic Church does not necessarily record burials as burial is not a sacrament, and records of Catholic burials in C of E cemeteries are patchy. Some of my Catholic ancestors were buried in the Roman Catholic graveyard at Sedgely, but the church there has no records before the early 20th century. Maybe the Birmingham Diocesan Archive is the only hope.

If the lockmaker William Bate d. 1866 is one of mine I haven't come across him yet! My William John Bate is described variously as a linguist, professor of  languages, tutor etc. and he died in 1858 of 'Disease of the Liver'. And for all he sounds like an educated man, one of his sons had to make his mark, rather than sign his name, on his marriage certificate. I just have this feeling he might not have been a very good father ...

Scranpot
Title: Re: Bate and Lucas families, Wolverhampton
Post by: ciderdrinker on Wednesday 18 April 12 11:46 BST (UK)
Dear Scranpot
Had another look around.The family are on the 1841 census it seems at Green Lane Tettenhall with a Mary Williams age 60.William John Bate tutor is down just as John.
There oldest daughter Eleanor has a baptism attched on Ancestry 23.8.1829 Roman Catholic registers Staffordshire to John and Ann Bate godparents Elizabeth Lucas and Thomas Livesley.Nothing for the rest of the children and no details of what parish etc.She dies as Eleanor Jones 1829-Sep 1874 Wolverhampton 6b 297 and marries John Jones steel lock maker.
Daughters Ann marries William Locan carpenter Dec 1854 Wolverhampton,Catherine Elizabeth Dec 1863 Job Brecknall watch maker and jewller and Mary(Maria) Victoria mar 1879 a Thomas Morrison
And there is a James francis Bate  up at the Staffordshire assises 1.7.1850 for larceny who recieved i months imprisonment and a whipping.Might be worth a look in the local paper.
All at the moment
Ciderdrinker

ps baptism turns out is from Wolverhampton -Staffordshire parish records society volume 64
Title: Re: Bate and Lucas families, Wolverhampton
Post by: Scranpot on Wednesday 18 April 12 17:52 BST (UK)
What a sleuth you are, ciderdrinker! It took me months to assemble that lot ... though I wasn't sure Eleanor's baptism was her - as you say, there don't seem to be records for their other children. I wonder if Elizabeth Lucas was her aunt? I can't seem to find out much about the Lucas family; they might be the Catholics, I suppose. And although Bate seems to be a very common surname in Wolverhampton, my John William says he was born in London.

(In the 1841 census, I did wonder if Mary Williams actually belonged to the previous entry, which is for a Thomas Williams?)

William Lacon, carpenter, was my great grandfather. His daughter Jane married Joseph Morrison, who was her aunt Maria Victoria's brother-in-law!

Everything I've discovered about the Bates and Lacons is on ancestry.co.uk. Do you have a family, or a local, connection? Let me know if you want an invite to my tree.

Thanks for the suggestion of local papers for anything about poor James Francis Bate. If he's the James Francis Bate who was William John Bate's son, he was born in 1836 so was only fourteen in 1850 ... I can't find that he married, or when he died; in the 1861 and 1871 census data he is single, and an agricultural labourer.
Title: Re: Bate and Lucas families, Wolverhampton
Post by: ciderdrinker on Thursday 19 April 12 12:38 BST (UK)
Hello there,its me again Ciderdrinker.
Thank you for your lovely compliaments,I really only looked at Ancestry and a few websites.I've no connection to the Bate or Lucas family but I am local and do have my own families (Cochrane,Stevens,Horton and Sollom) at Wolverhampton so I have got used to the records there.
I did  have another lokk for your James Francis Bate but no luck I'm afraid,there are lots of James Bates but nothing I can pin down as him after 1871.
I did do a little sneeky research off line,not at wolverhampton I hasten to add but came up with nothing absolutely positive.Those catholic records are provinga bit of a pain.Birmingham Library did have a copy of Volume 64 catholic records Staffordshire.It covers baptisms and burials at Wolverhampton up to 1830 ,most entries after 1800.
I do believe I know who Ann's parents where and I would also say I know who her paternal grandparents where looking at the records.It's looking like her marriage to William John Bate is going to be really important but I had no luck with that either.I do want to disappoint but I can't find her baptism.
Ciderdrdrinker
Title: Re: Bate and Lucas families, Wolverhampton
Post by: ciderdrinker on Thursday 19 April 12 12:56 BST (UK)
Dear Scranpot,
This is what I did find for the Lucas family in Wolverhampton,you can choose whether to use it or not.
Catholic Register has 3 Lucas couples.
Elizabeth bapt 31.7.1829 to James and Rachel godparents Thomas Pool and Ursula Brandwood.
Elizabeth 3.12.1825 born 8.11. Edward and Sara godparents John Guisaini and Mary Latham
Mary Ann 29..7.1828 bapt 22.9.1828 daughter of Edward and Sara godparent Mary Wright.
And the couple who I think are Ann's parents.
Marianne   25.10.1799 d of  James and Elizabeth god parent Mary Barney
Elizabeth 3.7.1804  born 2.6. godparents Joseph Moore and Sara Simkiss mother's maiden name Day.
James 20.3.1806 godparents Thomas Wright and Ursula Simkiss
John 19.6.1809 born 2.6.1809 godparents William Simkiss and Mary Wright.
James Lucas married Elizabeth Day at Bushbury 27.1.1799 which hopefully will also be at Wolverhampton.
There does seem to be only one couple at the right date,but no baptism for an Ann unfortunately.
While you are at Wolverhampton it might be worth looking at the rate books which will provide an occupation for James and an address.John Roper has done a little book on these something like Occupations of Wolverhampton which should also be on the shelf.It doesn't include how much rent they paid or who was their landlord but it only about 30 pages and easier to read.
There is also a census entry for 1851 which may be James Lucas from the catholic registers
.1851 Chapel court
James Lucas 73 widower propieter of house    Wolverhampton
James  son 44 married  locksmith  Wolverhampton(he's the James and Rachel from the register with the rest of his family living in Horsefair).
James Junior also married at Bushbury 19 .4.1829 to Rachel Jackson.
Possible death James Lucas June 1852 Wolverhampton 6b 239which may help you track down a will.Sorry but this is probably going to be at Lichfield.
Possbile baptism for James Lucas 19.7.1777 St Peters to James Lucas and Lucy.
They married by licence at St Peter's 17.1.1774 (The bride being lucy Smith).
As I said no proof they are yours but they do seem to be the only Lucas family in Wolverhampton and they are catholic.
Any way good luck with your trip and I hope you find something positive.
Ciderdrinker
FOUND IT FOUND IT mariage Ann Lucas and William John Bate 21.10.1827 St Martin Birmingham.Sorry about that I got a bit excited.
Title: Re: Bate and Lucas families, Wolverhampton
Post by: Scranpot on Thursday 19 April 12 16:17 BST (UK)
Oh well done! You are kind. They must be my Ann Lucas and William John Bate, but it seems that St Martin Birmingham is the parish church, so presumably CofE. And I wonder why Birmingham? Imponderable ... although I have come across no Lucas witnesses at weddings, informants of death, visitors in census data, etc. - maybe Ann was thrown off by her family too! (The family history handed down to me was that William John Bate was estranged from his family.)

Thanks also for all the info about the Lucases. Yes, Bushbury is also Wolverhampton and not all that far from Tettenhall. Will see what I can find on ancestry about possible Lucases and then move on to the Wolverhampton Archive to check out all your other suggestions. Might the Wolverhampton Archive have a copy of the Catholic Registers you mention? I can't find it in their index.

Thanks again, Scranpot
Title: Re: Bate and Lucas families, Wolverhampton
Post by: Scranpot on Thursday 19 April 12 16:33 BST (UK)
Just had another thought - if I put all your findings on my tree on ancestry it might turn up some family connections - would you mind if I did that?

Scranpot
Title: Re: Bate and Lucas families, Wolverhampton
Post by: ciderdrinker on Friday 20 April 12 09:54 BST (UK)
No problem with that Scranpot.
As for the Wolverhampton archive's catholic records,not sure exactly what they have got.The only one I've tried personally was that little blue book for St Paul and St Peter's.I know they don't have the original parish records in most cases.They are at Staffordshire Archives in Stafford so it would be best to ask before you travel.
As for William John Bate and Ann Lucas they do seem a bit of a Romeo and Juliet situation.If her birth is right she would have only been 16 when she married and he was this sophisticated older man from London.I could understand her parentas being a bit worried.Maybe that's why they went to Birmingham.
Any way good luck for now
Ciderdrinker
Title: Re: Bate and Lucas families, Wolverhampton
Post by: Scranpot on Friday 20 April 12 10:15 BST (UK)
Many thanks Ciderdrinker, will let you know if I turn up anything interesting! And will see if Stafford might fit into my travel plans ... there's such a step change between the immediacy of online records and traipsing round the country examining original records ...
Title: Re: Bate and Lucas families, Wolverhampton
Post by: Scranpot on Wednesday 25 April 12 20:03 BST (UK)
Hi Ciderdrinker, haven't been to Wolverhampton yet but have been trying to find out what happened to Ann Bate (nee Lucas) and her son James Francis Bate. They are both in the 1871 census data, living at Lane Green, Tettenhall, she is described as 'widow, landowner' and he is 'unmarried, agricultural labourer'. In the 1873 'Return of owners of land' Ann is listed as owning 21-odd acres in Tettenhall. Then they both disappear! I imagined that Ann might have died before the 1881 census - she was 59 in the 1871 census, but I can't find a record of an Ann Bate death anywhere near Wolverhampton between 1873 and 1913; nor any marriage or death for James Francis Bate between 1870 and 1930. (There is a James Bate, b. Tettenhall abt 1833 in the 1891 census, but he is a lockmaker and after two decades as an agricultural labourer, in spite of his criminal record, this seemed an unlikely trade for him). Can you suggest anywhere I can look? (If this is too big an ask I shall quite understand, I don't want to be a nuisance!)
Title: Re: Bate and Lucas families, Wolverhampton
Post by: ciderdrinker on Thursday 26 April 12 13:22 BST (UK)
Dear Scranpot.
Nice to hear from you again.I see what you mean they just disappear.
Had a look through the wills but no luck there.
Possible deaths for a plain James bate
Dec 1900  age 62 Wolverhampton 6b 420.
Dec 1891 age 53 wolverhampton 6b 394.
June 1913 age 74 Wolverhampton 6b 679.
Also while you are at Wolverhampton the burial ground at Bushbury is not included in the indexs at Wolverhampton history and there must be a catholic cemetary or wherever for William John Bate to be buried.
Could see if any deeds have survived for her property.
There is a transcript of the criminal trial for James Francis on Staffordshire name indexs but that''ll cost you £7.00 and yoy already know about that.
Will have a good dig round see what I can find but nothing standing out at the moment.Get back if I find anything.
Ciderdrinker
Title: Re: Bate and Lucas families, Wolverhampton
Post by: ciderdrinker on Thursday 26 April 12 14:10 BST (UK)
Had a look round and so far found extra catholic churches at Wolverhampton .
St Mary and St John Snow Hill opened 1855
St  Patrick Westbury St opened 1867
Saint  Joseph Walsall St
The records look like they are at Birmingham dioscian office.
Will carry on  looking.
Ciderdrinker

Title: Re: Bate and Lucas families, Wolverhampton
Post by: Scranpot on Thursday 26 April 12 16:04 BST (UK)
Oh, many thanks for these suggestions! I'll make a point of asking about Bushbury burials. The only family burials I'm sure of are Ann Lacon (nee Bate) and her husband William, because I have their funeral cards - they were buried in 1893 and 1894 respectively in 'Sedgley Catholic Churchyard'. I've identified this as St Chad's Sedgley, and went to visit; unfortunately, their records only start in the early years of the last century, and I couldn't find any gravestones. A helpful person at the Genealogical Society suggested that this was because they couldn't afford them. Doh!

I will start now with the James Bate deaths you have found - one at a time, starting with 1891, on the basis that agricultural labourers probably had a hard life (at £9.25 a throw you clutch at these clues ...) I'd also be quite interested in the transcript of his trial, and at £7 it sounds quite good value compared to BMDs!

Am planning to visit Wolverhampton on Friday 11 May, so have a bit of time to prepare.

Many thanks again.
Title: Re: Bate and Lucas families, Wolverhampton
Post by: ciderdrinker on Friday 27 April 12 11:11 BST (UK)
Dear Scranpot
Have checked the MI's for Tettenhall and St George's Wolverhampton-no luck there.
Had a lokk at the National Burial index 3rd edition but no entries for either of them.It does seem to have very few entries after 1834 compared to the 2nd edition which came in 4 discs depending on date.So if you see one  of that hanging about your local library it might be worth a look.
I did have a look at William John Bate and Ann Lucas's marriage.
William John Bate bach of this parish married Ann Lucas spinster of this parish by banns 21.10.1827 signed both of them.Witnesses Elizabeth Lucas and Robert Powell who both signed.
Not really much more that springs to mind.Will go and check if they have Sedgley MI's here but if you don't hear back from me,I didn't find anything.
Ciderdrinker
Title: Re: Bate and Lucas families, Wolverhampton
Post by: Scranpot on Friday 27 April 12 15:51 BST (UK)
This is really good of you Ciderdrinker! I hope you're not spending too much time on my elusive relatives?

And, where did you find William John Bate and Ann Lucas's marriage record? Was it original (i.e. signed in their own handwriting)? I would be most excited to see that! And by banns - presumably it was not a spur of the moment thing, and they had been living in Birmingham for at least three weeks ...

I'll try our local library for the National Burial Index.

Thanks again, and I do hope I'm not taking up too much of your time!

Scranpot
Title: Re: Bate and Lucas families, Wolverhampton
Post by: ciderdrinker on Saturday 28 April 12 09:19 BST (UK)
Hello again.
Yes it was an original copy I saw.It's om microfilm ,so it is their handwriting.I'll try to get you a copy next time I'm at Birmingham archives.They are only open Wednesday to Friday at the moment,so I'm afraid it'll be next week.
 Also had a look at MI's for Sedgeley and Coseley over there but no luck I'm afraid.
Ciderdrinker

Title: Re: Bate and Lucas families, Wolverhampton
Post by: Scranpot on Sunday 29 April 12 17:02 BST (UK)
Many thanks Ciderdrinker, very exciting! But please don't go to any trouble (or expense) - I'd happily make a detour to Birmingham to get it!

Apparently the Meltham (West Yorks) FHS has a subscription to a site which has the 2nd edition National Burial Index so will have a look at that this week.

Scranpot
Title: Re: Bate and Lucas families, Wolverhampton
Post by: Scranpot on Tuesday 01 May 12 17:55 BST (UK)
Have just got back from the Meltham and the local FHS - they have the 3rd edition of the National Burials Index installed on their computers, and like you I couldn't find any of my Bates/Lucases. The FHS still have the 2nd edition on four CDs, but couldn't open them on any of their PCs (I think whoever set up the PCs must have made it impossible to mess with them). They did let me borrow it ... but I don't have the software to open the files ... Doh! Still they had some interesting stuff about my husband's family who come from round here.

Hey ho.

Scranpot
Title: Re: Bate and Lucas families, Wolverhampton
Post by: ciderdrinker on Wednesday 02 May 12 10:57 BST (UK)
Dear Scranpot.
Have been to Birmingham today and got a copy of that marriage for William John Bate and Ann Lucas.
So now I can either send you it via e-mail or through the post.Drop me a pm with which would be easier.
Sorry to hear about the National Burial index.I think the librarian choose how they can mess it up.Birmingham have it ,but it will only load on the computer which won't print.So it's notepad and pen for the afternoon slog.
All for now
Ciderdrinker
Title: Re: Bate and Lucas families, Wolverhampton
Post by: Scranpot on Wednesday 02 May 12 13:10 BST (UK)
Oh, you are kind! I do hope you didn't go to any expense? Please email it, if that's easiest - my email is *

Will ask Wolverhampton Archive if they have the National Burial Index 2nd edition. The chap there seems quite helpful, by phone and email anyway!

Scranpot

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Title: Re: Bate and Lucas families, Wolverhampton
Post by: ciderdrinker on Monday 16 July 12 13:35 BST (UK)
Dear Scranpot
I know it's a long time and it may be nothing.But I've just spotted a Will on Wolverhampton's history site for a John Bate of Loan Green Tettenhall gentleman.No detials except date  proven 4.6.1804 written 6.4.1796.
Might be worth checking out next time your in Wolverhampton.
Ciderdrinker
Title: Re: Bate and Lucas families, Wolverhampton
Post by: Scranpot on Thursday 19 July 12 17:46 BST (UK)
Sorry for delay responding Ciderdrinker, have been on holiday.

Many thanks for this, will definitely look out for it! I'm in London again early August and will try and find out more about William John's father, William Bate, and his brothers and sisters (William married in 1792 and William John wasn't born till 1800 so I'm betting he had some siblings). I wonder if William was from Wolverhampton, went to London and made good, and William John went (or was sent) back home? There is another Bate family living in Tettenhall at the same time, millers and farmers, who I found in a multi-volume Staffordshire history in a library in (I think - should pay proper attention!) Codsall when I was looking for old maps.

Will let you know if I find anything interesting.

Fran
Title: Re: Bate and Lucas families, Wolverhampton
Post by: Scranpot on Sunday 02 December 12 16:56 GMT (UK)
Hi Ciderdrinker

Finally got to Wolverhampton last week to look at the copy of John Bate's will in the Archives, and thought you might like to know how I got on. Very interesting, thanks for the tip! He's definitely the right John Bate: he is living in Tettenhall and has a son called William Bate, in London, described as an 'Officer of Excise'. Lots of legal gobbledegook about property; fortunately my other half is a lawyer and interpreted it for me. There was some property in Tettenhall in which his son William is given a life interest, then after his death it goes to William's 'legally begotten' issue, which may explain why William's son, William John the professor of languages, fetched up there.

John Bate's eldest son was called Michael, also in London (you found a Michael Bate marriage in London I think?) - doesn't say what his profession is but all he got from his father's will was 'one shilling only to be paid to him within twelve months after my decease'! I wonder what he did wrong?

There were also two daughters: Ann, and Hannah, who was married to John Tovey; they had a son called James. They all got some life interests in various bits of property, which then went to their children. William also got a life interest in John Bate's 'Tythes and his Seat and Pew' in Tettenhall Parish Church! This also then went to his children. I've tried to find birth dates for Ann, Hannah and Michael online but no success so far.

John Bate is described as 'gentleman' but he makes his mark, rather than signing his name, which I find a bit odd!

There are loads more documents in the W/V Archive which mention John Bate, some also mentioning a William Bate who is a 'steel toy maker', but doesn't it take an age to read and transcribe them - and they're far too big to photocopy, I really need a couple of days there!

My visit to the Westminster Archive looking for William Bate's other children was a bit frustrating. I only managed to find one, a daughter called Ann, who was born 27 February 1793 and baptised at the Roman Catholic Chapel in the Portuguese Embassy on 13 March, sponsors William Fonder and Grace Fallon (there she is again!). Then nothing till William John was born in 1800.

Sorry for rambling on ... any suggestions for further research would be very greatly appreciated!

Fran
Title: Re: Bate and Lucas families, Wolverhampton
Post by: ciderdrinker on Monday 03 December 12 11:25 GMT (UK)
Hi there
Lovely to hear from you after all this time.Great to know it was the right Will.
I'm afraid it's been so long I need to get up to speed again.
   Am I right,that John Bate who died 1804 is the father of William Bate married 1792 who is father of William john born 1800?
  I've found some burials for John Bate 11.6.1804 Tettenhall,Ann 11.9.1801 and a Sarah Bate daughter of John Bate 10.6.1771 at Tettenhall but that's all so far.
  Not sure what Staffordshire archives might have for Tettenhall in the way of deeds and tithes for the parish,but I'll look into that.
  Will get back to you if I find more,but have a Good Christmas if I don't.
Ciderdrinker
Title: Re: Bate and Lucas families, Wolverhampton
Post by: Scranpot on Monday 03 December 12 15:56 GMT (UK)
Many thanks for this prompt reply! Sorry about the long silence over the summer, things didn't pan out as I'd planned ...

Yes, you're right. What a memory! And thanks for the prompt about burials. I'm sure the John Bate burial in June 1804 is right. I wonder if the Ann Bate who died in 1801 was his wife? I've had a look and found another Ann Bate of Lane Green, Tettenhall, who died in 1814 aged 64: she might be John Bate's spinster daughter? (I know she survived him, because there is a document in the Wolverhampton Archive dated 1805 which names her and her brother William as executors of their father's will.) Can't find a will for her, or for William or William's son William John, though.

It's really good of you to take an interest! I hope it's not a chore ...

With best wishes for Christmas and the New Year

Fran
Title: Re: Bate and Lucas families, Wolverhampton
Post by: ciderdrinker on Wednesday 05 December 12 11:42 GMT (UK)
Good Morning,
Started the search and here's what I've found so far.
Staffordshire Archives -apprenticeship of Elizabeth Nichols age 7 to John Bate of Tettenhall yeoman 8/12/1759.
List of papists and suspected papists 1767 diocise of Lichfield.
Constables book 1713-1841 of Tettenhall
Tithes for Tettenhall.
The last 3 may have a reference to John ,but I can't check on line.
In London for Michael Bate
A baptism at St Mary at hill London 23.2.1777 to John and Pheobe(a bit late?)
Burial  St Andrew Holborn age 58 30.8.1822 Dorrington St
1790 Holden's directory fishmonger27  St Mary's Hill
1796 Poll book same address
Fire Insurance policy 1.1.1779 and will 2212.1798 on London lives suggests the fishmonger may not be your man as he's too old.
There's an entry at the National Archives for William Bate an excise man in 1832, but again a bit late.There are 2 voters books for Meards St Soho 1802 1nd 1896 but without an occupation it's difficult to tell if it's him.
I can't find Tettenhall baptisms on line for the right date but they must be at Staffordshire Archives  or Wolverhampton.
Will keep digging
Ciderdrinker
Just found something extra William Bate steel toy maker had a loan of John Bate (yours ) in 1801 ref DX102/1-9 with reference to his will and William Bate Colonial Foundling Hospital Middlesex excise man of London and Ann spinster daughter for a building in Brickkiln St.It's at Wolverhampton.
Also various deeds for a John Bate Toovey of Wolverhampton.
Title: Re: Bate and Lucas families, Wolverhampton
Post by: ciderdrinker on Thursday 06 December 12 14:36 GMT (UK)
Hi Fran
Found the marriage for Hannah Bate to John Toovey 26.6.1788 at Aston Juxta
Possbile for Michael Bate 26.8.1782 St Clement Danes Elizabeth Murray.
John Bate Toovey was born in 1799 in Tettenhall according to the censuses but I can't see a baptism.
1861 Waterloo St Wolverhampton
John Bate Toovey 62 bank manager Tettenhall
Elizabeth 64 Salford Warwickshire
EdwaRD 27 Hardware foreman  Wolverhampton
Frances 25
Charles 24 hardware
Mary J 16
and 2 servants
Baptisms at ST Paul and St Peter Fred 11.1.1842,Edward 23.9.1833 and Charles 9.2.1837.
They married at Salford Priors Warwickshire 9.7.1824.
John BaTE Toovey's will ,died 30.11.1873 £2000 of Wolverhampton late of Horsefall House Cotham Grove Bristol proved at Principal Reg Office by John Williams farmer and Frances Williams his wife and daughter of Chapel Hill  Bridgewater.
He's in the Poll books from 1833 orig Chapel Yard 7 houses North Road.
Which gets us back to John Bate.I'm sorry but I made a mistake with the burial of Sarah d of John,it is actually his wife who died 10.6.1771.There is a possible marriage at Kingswinford to Sarah Jones 22.6.1755.All this means the children must be born 1755-1771 which is older than I thought and therefore so is John Bate.
There is a possible baptism for him at St Peter's Wolverhampton 26.12.1728 to Michael Bate and a sister Elizabeth 12.8.1731.Micheal married a Mary Martland 12.4.1726.A burial for Micheal 14.11.1733.
Will press on
Ciderdrinker

Title: Re: Bate and Lucas families, Wolverhampton
Post by: Scranpot on Thursday 06 December 12 17:15 GMT (UK)
What a haul! Many thanks for all this info, I really do think you are a star sleuth! Will follow these up when I can, so many interesting leads. Much more interesting than packing parcels and writing cards ...

Fancy John Toovey's name being mispelled in John Bate's will - I wonder if his and Hannah's son James Tovey is really the John Bate Toovey you have found? (Oh no he can't be, the will is dated 1796 and John Bate Toovey was born in 1799.)

Again, if it's OK with you I will put what you have found on ancestry and see if it throws up any links?

The London Bate brothers - I did do some digging in the trade directories at the Westminster Archive, and found three entries for someone called William Bate - one in Holden's Triennial 1805-06, a 'taylor and salesman' of 2 Monmouth Street, St Giles; and two in Holden's 1811 - a 'salesman' in 2 Monmouth Street, again, and a 'painter in enamels to Her Royal Highness Princess Elizabeth' of 52 Margaret Street, Cavendish Square: neither of these sounds much like an Officer of Excise! And I couldn't find a Michael Bate at all.

The possible baptism at St Peter's Wolverhampton in 1728 - the font at St Peter's dates back to about 1480, must have a look next time! ( I do need to spend more time in Wolverhampton ...)

Fran
Title: Re: Bate and Lucas families, Wolverhampton
Post by: ciderdrinker on Friday 07 December 12 10:29 GMT (UK)
Good Morning
I'm afraid you are going to have to spend some more time at Wolverhampton.
Sorry about that.And of course you can add those names to the Ancestry family tree.I think James and John Bate Toovey must be brothers but again no baptisms to report.
John Toovey was a tenant of John Bate's at Sedgley Lower side according to the 1798 land redemption tax.His rent was 9s and 2d.John Bate also owned land in Wednesfield and Codsall.
Just to add John Bate Toovey's wife was a Elizabeth Heath(sorry I missed of her surname).And it does look as though they were all catholics.Daughter Frances is being educated at Stanbrook Covent Worcestershire in 1851.
Can't spot a whole lot more at the moment,so good luck for now.

Ciderdrinker
Title: Re: Bate and Lucas families, Wolverhampton
Post by: Scranpot on Friday 07 December 12 15:38 GMT (UK)
Many thanks! And for this extra info. It is hard to figure exactly when they became (or came out as!) Catholics - in John Bate's Will he has a pew in the parish church ...

Fran
Title: Re: Bate and Lucas families, Wolverhampton
Post by: Scranpot on Friday 07 December 12 16:30 GMT (UK)
Ciderdrinker, can you tell me where you found the Hannah Bate/John Toovey marriage in 1788? Usually I can find marriages on IGI but not this one ...

Fran
Title: Re: Bate and Lucas families, Wolverhampton
Post by: ciderdrinker on Saturday 08 December 12 09:17 GMT (UK)
Yes it was on Familysearch under England marriages 1538-1973.I typed in Hannah Bate marriage to a spouse Toovey and that was the only answer to come up.

Ciderdrinker
Title: Re: Bate and Lucas families, Wolverhampton
Post by: Scranpot on Saturday 08 December 12 13:22 GMT (UK)
Ah, thanks - I haven't previously got beyond the first search page, now I will dig a bit deeper!

Fran
Title: Re: Bate and Lucas families, Wolverhampton
Post by: ciderdrinker on Friday 26 July 13 11:25 BST (UK)
Sorry not on the right track,thought i had something but no.
ciderdrinker
Title: Re: Bate and Lucas families, Wolverhampton
Post by: weste on Friday 26 July 13 14:22 BST (UK)
Like already said a lot of Bate name around the Staffordshire area and I think there's few buried in bilston cemetery and that was open from the mid 1850's so worth considering. Also if planning a trip to wolvo,there's heritage days 12-15 sept and the churches participate in it and some have guided tours as well getting around them on your own and other places are participating in it. I've bate families but come from great wyrley ,Cannock areas.
Title: Re: Bate and Lucas families, Wolverhampton
Post by: Scranpot on Friday 26 July 13 15:04 BST (UK)
Many thanks for all this! You are kind, and clearly have research skills years beyond mine ... I'd assumed that William and Lucy must have got married in Wolverhampton, but of course there's not logical reason why (and you'd have thought, after you found that William John Bate and Ann Lucas had got married in Birmingham it might have occurred to me to look ...)

I might leave the Bate family alone for a bit and have a go at my Scottish ancestors. Though one of my Bates, Thomas son of William John the linguist, moved to Cannock and it has been very confusing researching him because there are lots of Bates in Cannock (presumably yours!)

Thanks again.

Scranpot
Title: Re: Bate and Lucas families, Wolverhampton
Post by: weste on Friday 26 July 13 15:24 BST (UK)
There's bate and bates. There is sometimes different generations of the same lot. There is several marriages between same families in areas as village. I've got a few William, Thomas, marry ann and now a fellow volunteer researcher has linked me into a matthew bate who married a whitehouse, shed loads of those but that one is the daughter of a whitehouse and one of my daces. That's just one double connection I've got . I've got the cheslyn hay Methodist cd and the great wyrley st marks so if you have anything you want me to look up in those let me know!
Title: Re: Bate and Lucas families, Wolverhampton
Post by: Scranpot on Sunday 28 July 13 14:14 BST (UK)
How cavalier they were with their names! The William Lacon who moved to Scotland in the 1890s gives his mother's maiden name as Bates, so of course every generation of Scottish Lacons after him thinks she was a Bates. And one branch of the Lacons who emigrated to the US decided their name was La Con, presumably thinking it sounded French and a bit less common!

And I find these double connections (I have a female Lacon who married a Bate, if that's what you mean), very confusing, having to juggle two lots of Bates who have no connection that I'm aware of ...

I'm wondering now if Thomas Bate moved to Cannock because there was already a family connection. (But who with ... Do you ever wish you had been born a Marjoribanks or a Cholmondleigh? Fewer to go at ...)

Thanks for the look up offer. Thomas Bate was baptised a Catholic, but one daughter (Caroline) got married in St Luke's C of E Church, Cannock, and another (Susannah) in St Paul's C of E Church in Wednesbury, so I'm guessing he didn't keep up his religion. In the 1911 census he is living at 132 Wolverhampton Road, Cannock which looks on the map to be not far from Gt Wyrley and Cheslyn Hay, so if I come across any marriages that look likely I'll get back to you!

Scranpot
Title: Re: Bate and Lucas families, Wolverhampton
Post by: weste on Sunday 28 July 13 15:13 BST (UK)
There are several Thomas Bate round the area. particularly a pocket of bate families in station street. If I remember right a rosina bate married a Thomas s Heath. Don't know whether that's the same families. You may want to explore.