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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Northamptonshire => Topic started by: jpanks on Tuesday 10 April 12 21:44 BST (UK)
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Please help....i am looking for details regarding my great grandad. name thomas Morgan married to Kate walmsley 20th february 1899 at st Paul's, Kate lived at st sepulchre. thomas born about 1873 died between 1906 and 1910
in an industrial accident. he may have been deaf.lived at Stanley street when married. i cant seem to find any marriage parish records for this period. Please help am in doncaster cant get there......aaaaahhh :)
btw.... new to family research
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Did they have a daughter Elsie b 1900
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yes they did and another .... minnie. minnie is my grandmother, cant get any further down the thomas line.
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Firstly, welcome to Rootschat!
Secondly, could we just clarify ... you say that you can't get any further "down" the Thomas line, so are you looking for ancestors or descendants of Thomas and Kate?
You can find Thomas and Kate's marriage on the FreeBMD website (www.freebmd.org) - this will give you the necessary reference number to order their marriage certificate.
Pennie
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Thanks for replying.....
I am on the search for ancestors of Thomas.
I have the marriage certificate it isn't of much help.
It states thomas Morgan (deceased) as the father who's profession is written as "rounder".
I thinks it has something to do with a railway turntable at the station.
Thomas Morgan jnr profession is storeman.
Not much help....hundreds of Thomas Morgan's.
Hoping that maybe there's more info in parish register.
Aaaaaahhh
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I think it unlikely that the parish register will have any further information, but it may be worth using the search services of the Northamptonshire Record Offfice to find the entry.
Who are the witnesses listed on the marriage certificate?
On the 1901 census Kate MORGAN (nee WALMSLEY) is living with her parents in Northampton (born in Towcester). Her infant daughter Elsie is with her. No sign, though, of Thomas.
Pennie
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Further to previous posting, there's a Thomas MORGAN (born 1873 in London) living as a boarder in Northampton. His occupation is given as "cycle storekeeper" and he is recorded as married.
It may be worth seeing if you can find this Thomas on the 1881 census (free-to-view on various websites) with his father Thomas in a similar occupation to "rounder".
Pennie
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Yes that's something I will be checking, thank you.
Do think parish records will help....?
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It may be worth purchasing Elsie's birth certificate (as she was born less than a year before the 1901 census) as this may confirm Thomas's occupation.
There are two Minnie MORGANs with births registered in Northampton - in 1904 and 1906 - do you know if either of these are your grandmother?
Interestingly, the only death registrations in the county of Northamptonshire from 1910 to 1915 are in 1911 and 1912 - neither are in Northampton and both are way out on year of birth.
Can you post the names of the witnesses on Thomas's marriage certificate, as these may give new leads to follow.
Pennie
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Hi again... Thank you very much for helping it is a godsend.
Will put you in the picture a bit better..
Minnie Morgan is my grandmother born 1904 in Northampton
So Thomas was alive then
1911 census shows Kate has remarried Charles Clarke and is living in doncaster( where I am). She remarried sometime 1909 so had died by then.
The story is that he was working inside some machine during works break and because he was deaf didn't here sirens to say it was starting back up. Nasty way to go.
I was also told that he was a captain or something similar in the forces very vague I know. I can't find anything down that line sounds wrong to me, but could have been in boar war I suppose.
Charles had another daughter called Mabel. Am sure you will find the census.
I am on ancestry so I can see all the census info. And I can send an invite if you think it may help.
The witnesses on the marriage cert are William walmsley (Kate's father)
And Ethel walmsly( think its Kate's sister although she would be 14)
So I don't think it helps much.
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Hi jpanks.
Welcome from me too. :)
Could you say what area your Grandmother Minnie was born if you
have the birth certificate.
Sandy
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Hi and thanks for helping..
Minnie was born in Northampton, but I don't have the certificate yet.
Better put it on my list....
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HI again.
On freebmd the 2nd marriage is in Dec Qtr of 1910.
I can look at the P.R. for St.Pauls if not still at Church
later in the week as Library is closed tomorrow.
On the 1901 it says that Kate was working from home
being at her parents home, so maybe she and Thomas
were already estranged.
Sandy
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That would b fantastic. Thank you
I don't think they were estranged though.
Again. Thank you vey much.
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Re. Kate and Thomas not being together on the 1901 census, I wonder if this is because he is away fighting in the Boer War (taking into account your comment in a previous posting) - and was perhaps his deafness a result of a war injury???
On the basis that they had another child in 1904, they obviously were reunited at some point!
Pennie
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Pennie.
That was my exact thinking...
Although Thomas Morgan cycle storeman does look good.
Still doesnt help though.
Will have to order birth certificates I think.
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HI again jpanks.
I managed to get to the Library as they opened shortly today.
There is no Baptism I am afraid of any children at
St. Andrew's, St Katherine's. or St. Pauls the 3 nearest
C of England Churches to where they lived.
I have noted a Thomas Morgan in my Electoral Registers
in 1892 as being at 8, Arundel Street. That does not help.
Sorry I could not find anything to assist at the moment.
Sandy
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Hey thanks for trying...
Just to note the marriage was at st Paul's
It really is great to get this assistance.
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That's is what we are here for. :) :) :)
I could not see the marriage although I looked for it.
The Northampton Library does not hold the same micro-fiche
for the Parishes as the Northampton Record Office. :(
Sandy
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Hi yet again jpanks.
As you say you have the Marriage Certificate could you say
whether it states Banns or Licence.
T.I.A.
Sandy
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Hi sandy..
The marriage certificate says banns
Thanks....
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Thanks for that.
So what is known for sure?
Charles Clarke was in Chesterfield on the 1901 census
and Towcester on the 1891.
Did he marry Harriet Dickens in Dec Qtr 1905 in Chesterfield.?
Had daughter Mabel in 1906 in Chesterfield.
Harriet then dies in Dec Qtr 1908 aged 21.
Then in 1910 Charles marries Kate.
If so does the marriage certificate show they are both widow/er
or that Charles was a bachelor.
As both came from Towcester did they know each other before marriage.
I still find it strange that Thomas was a boarder and Kate was listed
as living at home being with her parents.
As the census was purely the night in question you would have thought
that Thomas would have been visiting not boarding.
Therefore will the birth certificate of Minnie give the clues needed.
Or the 2nd marriage of Kate.
Finally where is the death record for Thomas.
Sandy
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Looking at the 1901 Census I think I can see the link to the
Clarke family.
James Walmsley of Towcester married Abigail Moore and had a
daughter Ellen who married James Clarke father and mother of
Charles.
Abilgail is on the above census as Mother in law.
A lot of information relating to the Walmsley/Clark families and many
more Towcester folk are on Mary Taylor's brilliant site on my links
below this posting. (I wish I had checked it first. :)
Kate Morgan (father William Walmsley therefore was related to the Clarke's).
Sandy
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Hi again...
Had got the connection to Abigail and the walmsleys,
Don't know this Harriet,, new to me so never seen marriage certificate
Will definitely
Have to order both Minnie and Elsie birth certificate
Probably Minnie's first..
I am also at a loss with thomas Morgan death detail ... Where? Especially.
Thanks
Jason.
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Hi Jason.
We always put whatever information we can to help yourself
and any folk who maybe tracing the same family and find the
topic at a later date.
Back to Thomas you say he died in an industrial accident do you know
what job/place he was working at then.
As the 1901 is the only sighting of him in Northampton at the moment
and no knowledge of when he died as not on Freebmd in the time scale
you quoted, can you narrow it down at all with anything further.
Sandy
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Really sorry., I got nothing..
Told from a 70 year old auntie,everything I already passed on here .
When I questioned her more she didn't know where, when or even what job
Just that he was a captain in the army or something like
Now, Elsie's granddaughter was born in the 20s, and I have been informed that she is still alive. I am currently waiting for her son to get in contact. To arrange a meeting. But I have been waiting a while.
Is it worth looking at census for arrundel stree. To see who's there..?
I think it's maybe a possibility that Thomas was working at a railway ,plant just an idea from something my father said before he passed away.
Sorry I got no more but really appreciate the help.
Jason
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Hi Jason.
It does seem as though we are working a bit out of our depth. :)
Anyway here is some information I gleaned about the family (Walmsley also)
today.
The full marriage details for Thomas and Kate.
St Pauls Parish Church after Banns
Pg. 26, No. 252
February 20th 1899
Thomas Morgan, 26, Bachelor, Store-keeper, 19, Stanley Street, father Thomas
(Deceased) Rounder to
Kate Walmsley, 18, Spinster, 4, Semilong Place, father William, Stitchman
Thomas and Kate signed their names.
Witnesses: William Walmsley (signed his mark) and her sister
Esther Norris Walmsley
Sandy
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Other siblings marriages also at St. Pauls.
Frederick Brown to Minnie Walmaley July 10th 1893
Harry Marks to Ada Walmsley September 2nd 1895
Frank Roberts to Maud Walmsley August 4th 1907
George A Parsons to Esther Norris Walmsley August 4th 1907
I have full details if you would like me to P.M. them Jason.
Sandy
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I found the baptism for Elsie.
St Paul Parish Church
Pg. 56, No. 443
Born May 27th 1900, Baptised June 17th 1900
Elsie to Thomas & Kate Morgan, 4, Semilong Place, Contractor or Caretaker.
Sponsors Frank Walmsley and Mrs Jane Walmsley of 4 Semilong Place
and Sylia Parsons of the Plough Hotel.
Sandy
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On another baptism of her sister Ada's child in 1902 it stated
(Mrs) Kate Morgan, 4 Semilong Place.
Sandy
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Wow sandy.
You really have been busy
Where did you get all this..?
Theres lots of information here sandy... And of course if you have more I would love you to pass it on.
Still not much of a lead on Thomas apart from different occupation.
Sound to me as though he had no family in area so probably not from area himself.
Making it harder to find the clues.
Am currently looking through census at different addresses at different years looking for clues.
Many thanks though sandy
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At the Northampton Library, Jason.
I have just found these entries on the Towcester Cemetery Index
I have.
1. Pg. 09 No. 0065
Stillborn Child of Minnie Walmsley, Towcester, Servant, Single Woman,
Died Sep 11 1886, at Towcester, Buried Sep 11 1886 :'(
2. Pg.11, No. 0083
John Harris Walmsley, 13 months, Son of William Walmsley of Towcester,
Shoemaker, died 30th December 1886, at Towcester, buried Jan 3rd 1887
Sandy
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Hi again Jason.
I have just sent you more info in a P.M.
Sandy
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Hi sandy..
The info you passed on is fantastic.. Thank you
Lots to update on my tree
Have spoken with Elsie's granddaughter and arranged to meet with her soon.
Don't know what she knows though(sounds a bit frail).
So thanks for your help and will keep you posted
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You are most welcome Jason.
I have some more information for you but it is on my camera so
need to download.
All the best with the meeting. :)
Sandy
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Okay now sent to Jason in a P.M. this info which maybe of help
to anyone else following this family.
Baptisms at St Paul's Parents Harry and Ada (mn Walmsley) Marks
December 27th 1896, Born November 29th 1896, Lydia Norris
May 29th 1898, Born May 1st 1898, Harry
Baptised June 15th 1902, Born April 10th 1900, Ada
Baptised June 15th 1902, Born May 18th 1902, Sidney
Baptisms at St. Paul's Parents Frank and Maud (mn Walmsley) Roberts
Baptised Mar 1st 1908, Born Feb 5 1908, Elsie Maud
Baptised May 1st 1910, Born April 4 1910, Frank
Baptised at St Paul's Parents George Arthur and Esther Norris (mn Walmsley) Parsons
Baptised February 7th 1909, Born Jan 9? 1909, Reginald
Sandy
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Hi sandy
Thanks very much for the extra info
It really is fantastic to get this
And I wouldn't have got it if it weren't for you
So again Thank you
Jason
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If only we could help further with Thomas.
We will be on stand by. :)
Sandy
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Hi everyone
I thought I would take an opportunity to update everyone one about what I have found regarding this topic....
My biggest breakthrough was when I found a newspaper clipping on FindMyPast about Thomas and Kate Morgan.
It states that Thomas attempted to kill Kate in 1901 , with this information it's clear to say that they had split up,
Also found more clipping of Kate getting in trouble with the law for theft from a person..
It's my understanding that Kate was the bad one not Thomas..
After getting Minnie Morgans birth certificate. No father was recorded. So now I know that my grandmother was illegitimate, which came as a complete shock to her only surviving daughter.
I know it's been a while but thanks again to all who helped
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Thanks for the up-date jpanks.
Sandy
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Just had a thought jpanks.
Have you seen Alan Clarke's new Police Register Index.
Northampton Borough Police Sessions & Assizes 1851-1909
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0wls/
Might come in handy. :)
Sandy