RootsChat.Com

England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => London and Middlesex => Topic started by: corinthian on Monday 09 April 12 12:59 BST (UK)

Title: Wright Family History.
Post by: corinthian on Monday 09 April 12 12:59 BST (UK)

Hi,

Am looking for info on the children of Joseph Wright (c1770),a gent & Schoolmaster & Theodosia Gillio (1772-1821). I have traced Joseph born 1797,Marion Johnson (b1799 & married James Dupree),George born 1801,Joseph Ferdinando born 1805 & Amelia born 1814 all in Westminster,London. There is quite a big gap between Joseph & Amelia so perhaps there were other children born from 1806-1813?. Have managed to find out a bit about Joseph Ferdinando Wright & Marion Johnson Wright but nothing about the others due to the name being so common.

Regards

Coreen   

Title: Re: Wright Family History.
Post by: SouthendSue on Monday 09 April 12 14:36 BST (UK)

There's a Charlotte Eliza b13 Jul 1807, bap 19 Jul 1807 d of Joseph and Theodosia Wright

and

Wm Henry b14 Aug 1812, bap 27 Aug 1812 s of Joseph and Theodosia Wright

Both baptisms were at St James Clerkenwell.

Title: Re: Wright Family History.
Post by: SouthendSue on Monday 09 April 12 14:46 BST (UK)

Two more baptisms -

Amelia,  bapt 28 Apr 1814 d of Joseph and Theodosia Wright (Gent) of Pear Tree Court. St James Clerkenwell

The second one - the image is not great but I think it may be for Joseph Ferdinando. He was baptised at St James Piccadilly 28 Oct 1822 and for date of birth there is a note which states "said to be born March, year 1805 or 1815 (it's not clear) Father's occ. is also unclear but says Clerk in p ----- ? office.

Title: Re: Wright Family History.
Post by: corinthian on Monday 09 April 12 17:18 BST (UK)

Hi,

Thanks for that. What websites did you find them on?

Regards

Coreen

Title: Re: Wright Family History.
Post by: SouthendSue on Monday 09 April 12 19:04 BST (UK)

All on A******y!! ;)

Sue

Title: Re: Wright Family History.
Post by: jennifer c on Monday 09 April 12 23:35 BST (UK)

I think Joseph Ferdinado's bapt. states address 18 Broad Street born 18/3/1815

Jennifer

Title: Re: Wright Family History.
Post by: corinthian on Tuesday 10 April 12 07:31 BST (UK)

Hi,

Unfortunately I no longer have access to that particular site.

When I looked previously I thought Joseph Ferdinando's DOB on his baptism records was 19/03/1805. His date of baptism was 28/10/1817,aged,I think, 17. He married Martha Smith on the 19/05/1834,making him either 19 or 29 at the time of his marriage. I'm not 100% sure which DOB is correct but his wife Martha was born in 1812 so 1805 is more likely.

Regards

Coreen

Title: Re: Wright Family History.
Post by: jimmytheone on Thursday 17 May 12 13:43 BST (UK)

Hi Coreen,

Can I just ask.... 

I've been researching a friend's family and had one line back to Theodosia Martha Wright, 1841-1921, daughter of Joseph and Martha and had seen the marriage of Joseph Ferdinando Wright and Martha Elizabeth Smith but wasn't convinced they were TMW's parents, if only because 'Ferdinando' didn't seem to fit in with his descendants. Now I've read this forum and seen that the parents' DoBs match those I had from the 1841 census, and also the connection with grandparents' names, it looks as though it does all fit together.

So have I got it right? Theodosia Martha Wright is Joseph Ferdinando Wright's daughter, Theodosia Gillio's grand-daughter, and Edward Walter Lambert's wife.

Many thanks,
James.

Title: Re: Wright Family History.
Post by: corinthian on Friday 18 May 12 07:12 BST (UK)

Hi James,

Yes from everything I have looked at over the last few years that is the case,Theodosia Martha Wright (1841-1921) was the daughter of Joseph & Martha & Edward Lambert's wife.
I have tried,unsuccessfully,to trace a B/C for any of the four children of Joseph Ferdinando Wright & Martha Elizabeth Smith,although I have traced their baptism records via the Ancestry.co website. I have also traced Joseph's own baptism records on the same website &, although the record on Ancestry is recorded as Joseph Frederick,the image is clearly transcribed as Joseph Ferdinando.  One of Joseph's grandsons was also named Joseph Ferdinand(o?).  Joseph's (1805-1844) own parents were indeed Joseph Wright (c1770-?) & Theodosia Gillio (1772-1821) & they were married 20/12/1796 in Margate,Kent. He was recorded as a gent,a schoolmaster & clerk at various times. I have been unable to go back further than this Joseph on the Wright family tree.
Theodosia Gillio had at least four siblings on which I have some limited info. I do have quite a lot of info about her brother George William Gillio (1775-1815), who worked for the East India Company. Theodosia & George William Gillio's parents were another Joseph Gillio,(c1743-1791) & an Amelia (1744-1813). I have not been able to trace Amelia's maiden name.Joseph was a surgeon. This is as far back as I have managed to go at this point.

If you would like any further info please let me know.

Edward Walter Lambert & Theodosia Wright are my 2 x grt-grandparents. How is your friend connected to them?     

Regards

Coreen.

Title: Re: Wright Family History.
Post by: jimmytheone on Friday 18 May 12 11:20 BST (UK)

Hi Coreen,

Thanks for confirming all that. It's great to find someone I can get my teeth into - there's more on the web about Joseph Fernandino Gillio than the rest of the people on this tree put together - One of your correspondents mentioned that JFG was a Grand Steward in the Freemasons; I have seen another reference to him as Senior Grand Warden, which would appear to be the third highest rank. But if you've been looking for the last few years and I've been looking for the last few weeks I don't suppose there's much I can tell you.

My friend is also descended from Edward Walter Lambert & Theodosia Wright, they are her 3 x gt-grandparents. Their firstborn, Lydia Thedosia Lambert (1859-1924), married Thomas Barfoot (1858-1910) whose daughter Mary Ann Barfoot (1889-1964) married Richard McCleave (1880-1940) - my friend's great-grandparents. After that the people are still alive and I guess I shouldn't name them here.

Thomas Barfoot was a railway porter and a general labourer, which seems a long way from Freemasonry, surgery, and 'Judge in Augryapoore' [GWG], and why I doubted the connection. Mind you, there's a similar tale in my own family when the admiral's grand-daughter eloped with her uncle's groom, my great grandfather, after her father had money troubles prior to leaving her an orphan.

I decided not to follow all nine of Lydia Lambert's siblings so I don't have you on the tree.

I assume that Joseph Wright, b.1797 must have died before his brother Joseph Ferdinando Wright was born so could the burial of a Jos. Wright in Westminster on January 1, 1799 on FamilySearch be him? There's no more info than that. As you said, Wrights are harder to follow than Gillios.

Thanks again,
James,

Title: Re: Wright Family History.
Post by: corinthian on Friday 18 May 12 12:29 BST (UK)

Hi James,

Just to confirm I do have all the details about the Lambert family down,through to the McCleaves as well as other branches.
I agree that the Jos.Wright buried 05/01/1799 is probably the Joseph Wright born 11/10/1797.

Most of the info iro the Gillio family I've obtained via the internet. I have found both the India Office FHS site & the FIBIS websites useful for information pertaining to George William Gillio,Theodosia's brother. Another brother,William Robert Gillio,was taken on as an apprentice in 1792 by the (apparently!) famous funiture maker,John Linnell but I can find no further details about him.  There was also a sister,Caroline Amelia Gillio,but other than her baptism on 17/10/1771,I can trace no further details. I've found mentions of  Gillios on other sites including tracing the will of George Gillio,brother to JFG. The will was not proven until 31/05/1793,although George had died in 1780. George left the proceeds to a Mary Woolley,formerly Bonnington,wife of John Woolley. Intriguingly a John Woolley,a widower,married a Mary Gillio 03/06/1786. I'm not sure what the connection is here,a sister,a daughter??. There are other marriages but I've struggled to link them up. If you do find anything that I've overlooked I would be grateful if you could let me know.   

Regards

Coreen

Title: Re: Wright Family History.
Post by: jimmytheone on Friday 18 May 12 15:21 BST (UK)

Hello again,

As I said, you've probably found everything there is to find but I must ask whether you have read;

MEMOIRS OF A HIGHLAND LADY
THE AUTOBIOGRAPHY OF ELIZABETH GRANT OF ROTHIEMURCHUS
AFTERWARDS MRS. SMITH OF BALTIBOYS
1797-1830

http://www.scottishcorpus.ac.uk/cmsw/search/document.php?documentid=76

It's full of anecdotes about George William Gillio's wife and daughter Amelia, who sounds like a right one!!!, and son George, who wasn't much better.

I wonder whether Mrs Smith was related to Martha Elizabeth Smith, JF Wright's wife.

BTW, may I ask which of Edward Lambert's children was your Great Grandparent?

James.

Title: Re: Wright Family History.
Post by: corinthian on Saturday 19 May 12 06:29 BST (UK)

Hi James,

Yes have read that - not word for word but,I think,all that refers to the Gillio family. Loved the mention of daughter,Amelia's, extra short fashions ''at both extremities'' & how they were ashamed of being seen with her. I only found one mention of son George - did you find more? I have only managed to trace four children of George & Margaret Gillio;Amelia (1800-1850),George (born c1802-1820),Margaret (1803-1845) & Isabella (1809-1836). There may have been others,maybe between the years 1803-1809,although when Isabella married Francis Brooke Norris 5/05/1829 there is a footnote that reads ''At Ghundwarah............,to Isabella,third daughter of the late George William,Esq.,Bombay Civil Service''. Daughter Margaret went on to marry David Winter Fraser 26/01/1825 & there's quite a lot of info available about him & their children (including triplets) via the internet.

I have Amelia's first marriage to Lieut.William Reynolds 13/10/1823 in Bombay,India. She went on to have two daughters with William;Margaret Elizabeth (03/10/1824-Aug 1825) & Isabella Augusta (1825-?). Isabella married William Montague Johnston in Nagpore,India 21/11/1844.
Amelia was widowed 02/02/1828 & married for the second time to a William Henry Miller on 03/12/1830. She went on to have several other children with William Miller.   

I have no idea about the Smith connection but it is a possibility.  

My grt grandparent was Elizabeth Ann Lambert (1879-1956). Elizabeth was the second youngest child of Edward & Theodosia. My nan (Elizabeth's daughter) always told me that she'd come from a once well off family - i'd love to be able to tell her what i've found out but she died in 1999.

Regards

Coreen

Title: Re: Wright Family History.
Post by: jimmytheone on Saturday 19 May 12 10:32 BST (UK)

Hi Coreen,

Thanks again. No, I only found the one mention of George; the tale of his running off to sea other than this intro to the family; "She [Amelia's mother] intended leaving her youngest daughter and her son at good schools in England, and was preparing to return to Bombay with her two eldest girls when she heard of her husband's death. Her circumstances being much changed by this calamity, she thought of Edinburgh as uniting many advantages for all her children at a cheaper rate than she could procure them elsewhere. We took lodgings for them; the boy was to attend the High School, the two younger girls the classes, and the elder ones to go a little out if they made desirable acquaintance", and yes, I had Amelia's marriage wrong. I had it from the Asiatic Journal; Oct 13, Lieut. W.Reynolds, Revenue and Topographical Department, to Miss Amelia Gillio, eldest daughter of the late G.W.Gillio.Esq., of the Civil Service. I saw 1824 at the top of the page and didn't notice that it was recording the previous year's events. Sorry. Perhaps she wasn't quite as 'naughty' as I thought.

I'm in exactly the same position regarding up-market ancestors. I never really believed my mother's tales and only found the truth after she had died. Mind you, all the scandal is in the wealthy 1/16 of the tree. Well, apart from my great aunts who'd have got on well with Amelia!!

Regards,
James.

Title: Re: Wright Family History.
Post by: corinthian on Saturday 19 May 12 10:50 BST (UK)

Hi,

I didn't find the bit about George running off to sea. Do you know what chapter that was in?

Regards

Coreen

Title: Re: Wright Family History.
Post by: jimmytheone on Saturday 19 May 12 11:08 BST (UK)

Good morning,

It's in Chapter XVII, 1818-1819; — Mrs. Gillio's family troubles —

"George, her only son, had run away; after a search of some days he was discovered on board a collier, bent on going to sea. He made stipulations before consenting to return home, one of which was that he should no more attend the High School. One of her Indian friends placed him somewhere in England under a tutor, who prepared young men for cadetships; he got his appointment in proper time, and went out to Bombay, where he died."

I hope I've got that right.

James.

Title: Re: Wright Family History.
Post by: corinthian on Saturday 19 May 12 11:20 BST (UK)

Hi James,

Thanks,I missed that. George died 24/11/1820 in Bombay,India. He must have been very young when he died.

Regards

Coreen 

Title: Re: Wright Family History.
Post by: jimmytheone on Saturday 19 May 12 12:26 BST (UK)

Hello again,

I see you have Isabella Gillio's dates as 1809-1836 and, while I expect you're right, I thought I'd show you this from Historical records of the Survey of India, Volume 3, which, unclear as it is, appears to have her death as 1839.

I hope the image attaches and you can see it, I've not done such a thing before. I cannot see the rest of the entry.

James

Title: Re: Wright Family History.
Post by: corinthian on Saturday 19 May 12 13:48 BST (UK)

Hi James,

I'm sure you're right - I got my date from FamilySearch which is often incorrect. I can't quite read the image it's a bit blurry - what is the date in 1839?

Regards

Coreen 

Title: Re: Wright Family History.
Post by: corinthian on Saturday 19 May 12 14:04 BST (UK)

Hi James,

Have also found this extract from The Northern Standard and Monaghan,Cavan,and Armagh Advertiser dated 02/02/1839: Jan.29 in St.Ann's Church,by the Rev.Dr Dickenson,Francis Brooke Norris,Esq.,her Majesty's Surveyor-General in Ceylon,to Elizabeth Jane,daughter of T.S.Cooper,Esq.,Comptroler-General (sic) of Stamps in Ireland. A bit confusing to say the least.

Coreen     

Title: Re: Wright Family History.
Post by: jimmytheone on Saturday 19 May 12 15:01 BST (UK)

.

Title: Re: Wright Family History.
Post by: jimmytheone on Saturday 19 May 12 15:06 BST (UK)

Hi Coreen,

Oh dear, I ever more confused. Was Francis Brooke Norris Isabella Gilio's husband, I haven't actually seen his forenames? If so the Asiatic Journal recorded her death [definitely death and not burial] as occuring on July 22, 1836; "At Colombo, Isabella, wife of Francis Brooke Norris, Esq., H.M. surveyor-general, aged 27."  So we're back to your DoD of 1836. [Unless FBN went for the younger model, and they often did - if he were just a little older than Isabella 'H.M. surveyor-general' looks like quite an acheivement.]

As for reading the date on the image I posted, it's no less blurry at this end but I'd say it was 21-6-1839, which is a different day, month and year to the one above??? It's certainly not 22-7-1836 is it.

Another thing I noticed; Amelia Gillio must, obviously, have gone to India before October 1823 when she wed there, therefore the "Misses Gillio" who were reported to be departing for India on board the Katherine Stewart Forbes in the July 1824 issue of The Oriental Herald [if it's monthly it is presumably up-to-date] must be Margaret and Isabella. I'm surprised to find Margaret marrying on January 26, 1825* if she was still in England just six months before. Still, I guess the women were shipped out to India to find a husband, though it seems it was generally a death sentence. Or would the marriage have been arranged beforehand?

* on FamilySearch as 'Gillid'.

Regards,
James.

PS. I expect you've seen this but I've answered my own question as to FBN's age;

Deaths Mar 1879
Norris  Francis Brooke  78  Kensington  1a 78

Title: Re: Wright Family History.
Post by: corinthian on Saturday 19 May 12 17:03 BST (UK)

Hi,

According to the Families in British India Soceity (FIBIS) website Francis Brooke Norris married Isabella Gillio in Bombay 05/05/1829. At Ghundwarah to Isabella,third daughter of the late George William Gillio,Esq.,Bombay Civil Service.

According to the India Office Family History Search website Amelia Gillio either left for or arrived in Bombay 15/02/1822 & Margaret Gillio 24/05/1824.

According to Memoirs of a highland lady,Isabella Gillio,left the UK for India 28/09/1827.   

All of the children of George William Gillio & Margaret Grant died at relatively young ages,only the 'impudent' Amelia surviving into her 50s. I don't suppose any of the daughters had much say in who they married. I just hope it wasn't as bleak as it sounds.

Still confused about the date of death for Isabella - not sure if we'll ever be able to get to the bottom of it. 

Regards

Coreen

Title: Re: Wright Family History.
Post by: jimmytheone on Saturday 19 May 12 17:08 BST (UK)

Hi,

So who was the other person who made up "the Misses Gillio" who sailed in 1824? A sister we don't know about?

James

Title: Re: Wright Family History.
Post by: corinthian on Sunday 20 May 12 07:52 BST (UK)

Hi,

I don't know - if so she's never mentioned anywhere by name. There is a six year gap between Margaret & Isabella. As well as Amelia,both Margaret & Isabella are mentioned several times in the Memoirs & quoting from the same, ''Mrs Gillio parted with the last of her daughters,her youngest child,and with us who she loved almost as well''. This is on the date of 28/09/1827, when the author's family & several others depart for India. I think this youngest daughter must have been Isabella. She would have just turned 18 years old at the time. Presumably Mrs Gillio remained in the UK. 

Actually,just remembered,Isabella, at the time of her marriage, is recorded as the third daughter of George William Gillio,so there wasn't a daughter between Margaret & Isabella.

I don't know - another Gillio mystery!.

By the way - there was a George Gillio baptised in St Marylebone,Westminster 23/05/1775, parents George & Mary, who appears to have been declared bankrupt in later life. I think that this was a nephew of our own Joseph Ferdinando Gillio - son of his brother George.

Regards

Coreen   

Title: Re: Wright Family History.
Post by: jimmytheone on Saturday 26 May 12 12:31 BST (UK)

Hi Coreen,

Can I pick your brains once more?

Have you fathomed the relationship between Elizabeth Smith, nee Grant of Rothiemurchus, author of Memoirs of a Highland Lady, and Margaret Grant, wife of George William Gillio?

Also, thick as I am, I cannot make sense of this quote from her book; 

"...Mrs. Gillio, with her pretty little dark daughter* and her Hindoo maid. She was the daughter of Major Grant of Craggan, whom the fortunate General William had educated and sent for to India. She had come home with her children, and... "

* Is this a euphemism for mixed race?

Who is General William, and why did he educate Margaret Grant? Was she orphaned and brought up by the General? And was he 'fortunate' because he was "General William Grant was a footboy in my uncle Rothie's family", one of the locals who was given a chance to 'better themselves' or just because of his connection to Margaret?  I see there is a note "P. 238. A certain William Grant. — It was when Doctor William Grant was living at the Doune that there befell a quarrel in the kitchen between the cook and the turnspit; she came crying to her master that the boy had raised a knife at her and cut off her hair; he meanwhile took to his heels, and Doctor William, coming to the door, saw him running down the avenue at top speed. "Come back, you black thief, till I give you your wage!" shouted the Doctor in Gaelic. "Wait you till I ask for it," called back the boy. This was how General William Grant came to enlist" but I don't know what was on p.238.  You wouldn't think such a connection would leave Margaret so close to the author as to be a regular visitor. Did the servants generally take the master's name or was this coincidence?
 
Do you know who Margaret Grant's parents were, other than Major and Mrs.?


I had a quick look at the Dupree family, as in James Dupree who married Marian Johnson Wright; it looks as though they were a Huguenot silk weavers with several mentions on the net. One has an Isaac Dupree [James's grandfather?] as a weaver at 28 Elder Street ["a highly valued house"] who "undertook to raise a body of twelve of his workmen to resist the Young Pretender".
Another of an Isaac Dupree of 'Spittlefields', silk weaver, going bankrupt in 1855.  [London magazine or, Gentleman's monthly intelligencer..., Volume 24 - which elegantly printed "b--kr--ts"]

One website has MJ Wright's in-laws as Noah Dupree and Jane Wright but the only marriage I can see that fits has the wife as Jane Deacon. There was mention of a Noah Dupree in connection with a Mr Wright regarding the dealings of the House of  Lords.

Any idea where the Johnson middle name came from?

Sorry, what a lot of questions, though some are merely rhetorical.

All the best,
James.

Title: Re: Wright Family History.
Post by: corinthian on Saturday 26 May 12 14:23 BST (UK)

Hi James,

Like you I have also been trying to work out the relationship of Elizabeth Grant & Margaret Grant,without success. I do know that she was a niece of the unmarried General Grant & I think that she had two brothers ''Mrs Gillio,once Miss Peggy Grant of Craggan,niece to the old General & to Peter the Pensioner,....''. I think I recall that her father was William Grant but i'm not sure how I know that - possibly from the Memoirs book. There is another passage from MOAHL that reads ''Mrs Gillio was already there with her daughter & her brother,Colonel Grant'' and a little further on ''...Mrs Gillio,her brother,and Lewis Grant''. I think her brother Colonel Grant was another William but I do not know who Lewis Grant is. There seems to be an awful lot of Grants in the book, I suspect they were a prolific family & were all related in one way or another.  I also have no idea why General Grant was fortunate.
 
I think the description of Mrs Gillio's daughter as a pretty little dark daughter is referring to her hair colour only. The Gillio surname originates from the north west part of Italy in the Torino area so perhaps the daughter was olive skinned?? I don't know how long the Gillios had,by then,been in the UK.   

I have carried out very little Dupree research but I know that there is quite a lot of info about the family available on the internet.

I'm not sure where Marion's middle name of Johnson came from - I thought possibly it was the maiden name of her father's mother. All I know about Marion's father was that his name was Joseph Wright & his occupation is described,at various times, as Gent,Schoolmaster,Clerk. At the baptism of son,Joseph,in 1805, he is described as a 'clerk in a ....pathic office'. Unfortunately I cannot read the rest of the word that ends in 'pathic'. 

Sorry I was unable to help you any further.

Regards

Coreen

Title: Re: Wright Family History.
Post by: jimmytheone on Saturday 26 May 12 14:36 BST (UK)

Hello again,

Thanks for getting back to me, Yes, there were far too amny Grants, and William Grants in particular. For what seems to be a well off family "Peter the Pensioner" seems a very odd name.

You're probably right about the dark daughter. My folk were out in India too but the mother came back to England for the birth of one of her many children, my Ggrandmother, but for some reason didn't stay with relatives but gave birth in a rented room. She and a couple of her sons look a little 'foreign' and a grand-daughter certainly does, but we don't know who her father was!, and I do wonder whether the chap I think is my GGgrandfather really is.

Regards,
James.

Title: Re: Wright Family History.
Post by: corinthian on Saturday 26 May 12 15:11 BST (UK)

Hi,

I think Peter the Pensioner was a nickname the Grant sisters had adopted because he collected some sort of Army pension.

Sounds like you've got at least one skeleton in your cupboard! I often think, when I'm researching my family history,that one deceitful wife from some period in the past,and you're spending hours/days/months/years tracing the completely wrong family.  Probably best not to think about it.

Regards

Coreen

Title: Re: Wright Family History.
Post by: oswinh on Friday 17 August 12 12:07 BST (UK)

Coreen,

Hi. I'm a descendant of Charlotte Eliza Wright... she was my Great Great Great Grandmother. She married my Great Great Great Grandfather Thomas Oswin on the 5th May 1835 in Peradeniya, Ceylon.

I had a record of her father as being Joseph Wright and her mother Theodosia Gillie [sic] so I was extremely pleased to find this post on Rootschat because it has opened up a whole branch of my family tree which I didn't know existed!!

Charlotte Eliza Wright's husband Thomas Oswin died in 1841 of TB and Charlotte spent most of the rest of her life travelling and living with her only child and son Alfred Francis Oswin (1836-1900). Charlotte travelled and lived with her son in Ceylon, England, India, and New Zealand. Charlotte Eliza Oswin (nee Wright) eventually died on the 4th May 1887 in Edmonton, London, England from Pneumonia Exhaustion.

I have a copy of Charlotte's Will and some further interesting information about her... would love to share more with you...  :)

Kind Regards, Hayden Oswin

Title: Re: Wright Family History.
Post by: corinthian on Saturday 18 August 12 04:17 BST (UK)

Hi Hayden,

I am a descendant of Joseph Ferdinando Wright,Charlotte's brother. He was my 3 x grt-grandfather. I hadn't been able to trace much about the other members of the Wright family so i'm really pleased that you have made contact. Would love more information.

Regards

Coreen